How Long Before LHC Results Are Announced?

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Offline common_sense_seeker

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How Long Before LHC Results Are Announced?
« on: 18/09/2008 09:53:09 »
I know that it will take some time before a definite conclusion on whether a Higgs Particle is declared found or not. But how long roughly? A few months perhaps? Does anyone have a better understanding?

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Offline DoctorBeaver

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How Long Before LHC Results Are Announced?
« Reply #1 on: 18/09/2008 15:28:14 »
The results of what? There are a few experiments lined up and it will take maybe years to get any answers as there will be an absolute mountain of data to sift through.
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Offline Don_1

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How Long Before LHC Results Are Announced?
« Reply #2 on: 18/09/2008 15:57:11 »
When a collision takes place it will take eons to find the one or two pictures of the event out of the millions of images being taken by the cameras. So I wouldn't hold your breath.
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Offline DoctorBeaver

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How Long Before LHC Results Are Announced?
« Reply #3 on: 18/09/2008 16:00:07 »
There are hardware & software triggers that will ensure only "interesting" events are recorded. That will reduce it from trillions of events to 100,000 or so for each experiment. Even so, that's a lot of data to work through.
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Offline neilep

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How Long Before LHC Results Are Announced?
« Reply #4 on: 18/09/2008 16:05:48 »
I am standing by with my Kodak Brownie 127 Camera in case they need a specialist to record the piccys !

I am on Sheep Alert !
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Offline DoctorBeaver

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How Long Before LHC Results Are Announced?
« Reply #5 on: 18/09/2008 16:12:04 »
I am standing by with my Kodak Brownie 127 Camera

I'm not old enough to remember those  [:P]
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Offline Evie

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How Long Before LHC Results Are Announced?
« Reply #6 on: 18/09/2008 16:21:34 »
The article I read on the day it was turned on said that they were only testing things right now, not actually running an experiment. From what I understand, they are going to run 900 GeV collisions next week, then 10 TeV in October, then shut down for the winter and resume next year at 14 TeV (full design energy).

Though they believe the Higgs Boson will be produced, the analyzation of data could take a year or so to come up with a conclusion, and three or more years to have enough statistics to say that they have definitely found it.
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Offline neilep

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How Long Before LHC Results Are Announced?
« Reply #7 on: 18/09/2008 16:22:49 »
I am standing by with my Kodak Brownie 127 Camera



I'm not old enough to remember those  [:P]
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Offline DoctorBeaver

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How Long Before LHC Results Are Announced?
« Reply #8 on: 18/09/2008 16:27:00 »
Evie - that sounds about right. The estimate I heard was mid 2011.
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Offline Don_1

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How Long Before LHC Results Are Announced?
« Reply #9 on: 18/09/2008 17:09:49 »
I am standing by with my Kodak Brownie 127 Camera in case they need a specialist to record the piccys !

I am on Sheep Alert !

I still have one of those, looky
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Offline DoctorBeaver

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« Reply #10 on: 18/09/2008 17:10:37 »
GAWD!
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Offline erickejah

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How Long Before LHC Results Are Announced?
« Reply #11 on: 19/09/2008 00:58:01 »
GAWD!
[???]spell it out please, for the international crew. [;D]

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Offline syhprum

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How Long Before LHC Results Are Announced?
« Reply #12 on: 19/09/2008 08:21:20 »
Thats not a proper Brownie, thats a modern plastic reproduction.
Proper brownie's were of a cardboard construction covered with black crinkly paper!
syhprum

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Offline rosalind dna

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How Long Before LHC Results Are Announced?
« Reply #13 on: 19/09/2008 23:36:08 »
I was surfing through the BBC Science and Nature news site but
I have found this bit of bad news regarding to CERN's LHC
which the engineers have had to stop due to the magnets releasing a ton of helium and won't let it start again until after this weekend. oh
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/7626256.stm
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Offline Make it Lady

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How Long Before LHC Results Are Announced?
« Reply #14 on: 20/09/2008 01:16:55 »
GAWD!
[???]spell it out please, for the international crew. [;D]
This means GOD but with a cockney accent! And is a more extreme exclamation.
Give a man a fire and he is warm for a day, set a man on fire and he is warm for the rest of his life.

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Offline Make it Lady

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How Long Before LHC Results Are Announced?
« Reply #15 on: 20/09/2008 01:17:58 »
I was surfing through the BBC Science and Nature news site but
I have found this bit of bad news regarding to CERN's LHC
which the engineers have had to stop due to the magnets releasing a ton of helium and won't let it start again until after this weekend. oh
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/7626256.stm
This is obviously to stop the protons from sounding like disney characters.
Give a man a fire and he is warm for a day, set a man on fire and he is warm for the rest of his life.

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Offline Make it Lady

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How Long Before LHC Results Are Announced?
« Reply #16 on: 20/09/2008 01:19:39 »
The article I read on the day it was turned on said that they were only testing things right now, not actually running an experiment. From what I understand, they are going to run 900 GeV collisions next week, then 10 TeV in October, then shut down for the winter and resume next year at 14 TeV (full design energy).

Though they believe the Higgs Boson will be produced, the analyzation of data could take a year or so to come up with a conclusion, and three or more years to have enough statistics to say that they have definitely found it.

Why do they shut down for winter? Are they all going skiing?
Give a man a fire and he is warm for a day, set a man on fire and he is warm for the rest of his life.

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Offline DoctorBeaver

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How Long Before LHC Results Are Announced?
« Reply #17 on: 20/09/2008 09:17:05 »
Some ski, some hibernate, and the rest fly south for the winter.
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Offline rosalind dna

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How Long Before LHC Results Are Announced?
« Reply #18 on: 20/09/2008 12:44:50 »
I was surfing through the BBC Science and Nature news site but
I have found this bit of bad news regarding to CERN's LHC
which the engineers have had to stop due to the magnets releasing a ton of helium and won't let it start again until after this weekend. oh
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/7626256.stm
This is obviously to stop the protons from sounding like disney characters.

No Sharon I couldn't think of a better word than "surfing" last night. But I have always been fascinated by the work that the
scientists and physcists (sp) are doing at CERN in Europe.

On Big Bang Day I watched it also listened to everything as far as I could. I had set my alarm clock just so that I'd not miss the start of it.




             UPDATE the LHC will be out of action for 2 months, that's bad news IMO.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/7626944.stm

« Last Edit: 20/09/2008 12:49:43 by rosalind dna »
Rosalind Franklin was my first cousin and one my life's main regrets is that I never met this brilliant and beautiful lady.
She discovered the Single DNA Helix in 1953, then it was taken by Wilkins without her knowledge or agreeement.

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Offline techmind

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How Long Before LHC Results Are Announced?
« Reply #19 on: 20/09/2008 14:15:04 »
             UPDATE the LHC will be out of action for 2 months, that's bad news IMO.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/7626944.stm

Yep - these things happen. It's a setback, but nothing too unusual for folks who work in this field.

The superconducting magnets are liquid-helium cooled, but liquid helium boils at 4K, so if something overheats for any reason the helium gets out sharpish! The magnets will be designed in such a way that the helium-escape in such circumstances is "managed" without causing catastrophic damage.

Of course there could be damage from the original cause of the overheat, and in any case, re-cooling the magnet takes a while...
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Offline Evie

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How Long Before LHC Results Are Announced?
« Reply #20 on: 20/09/2008 15:27:51 »
I was surfing through the BBC Science and Nature news site but
I have found this bit of bad news regarding to CERN's LHC
which the engineers have had to stop due to the magnets releasing a ton of helium and won't let it start again until after this weekend. oh
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/7626256.stm
This is obviously to stop the protons from sounding like disney characters.

No Sharon I couldn't think of a better word than "surfing" last night. But I have always been fascinated by the work that the
scientists and physcists (sp) are doing at CERN in Europe.

On Big Bang Day I watched it also listened to everything as far as I could. I had set my alarm clock just so that I'd not miss the start of it.




             UPDATE the LHC will be out of action for 2 months, that's bad news IMO.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/7626944.stm



I think she meant that the protons would suck the helium and their voices would get all high and sqeaky. I thought it was hilarious!
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Than are dreamt of in your philosophy."
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Offline Make it Lady

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How Long Before LHC Results Are Announced?
« Reply #21 on: 20/09/2008 22:43:55 »
When Alvin and the chipmunks do Helium, their voices get deeper!

I think it is a big shame that the LHC is already on the blink. I hope they bought the extra years warranty from LHC world. I am now conCERNed that this whole thing may end up as a damp squid. I hope someone is learning by mistakes as we type.
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Offline neilep

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How Long Before LHC Results Are Announced?
« Reply #22 on: 21/09/2008 07:33:54 »
When Alvin and the chipmunks do Helium, their voices get deeper!

I think it is a big shame that the LHC is already on the blink. I hope they bought the extra years warranty from LHC world. I am now conCERNed that this whole thing may end up as a damp squid. I hope someone is learning by mistakes as we type.


Yep, seems they forgot to add a can of Castrol GtX coolant and that it now need to going for servicing for the next two months !.....they'll probably be hoodwinked into buying some new shock absorbers too !!
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Offline DoctorBeaver

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« Reply #23 on: 21/09/2008 09:07:43 »
Will Sharon learn from her mistakes?

Damp squid? What are you on about, woman? Squids live in the sea so of course they're damp; they don't wear diving suits, you know!

I think you mean a damp squib - a squib being a type of explosive device. As such, the expression makes a lot more sense. I though everyone knew that.

As you can see from the article below, there are other definitions of squib.

from http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-a-squib.htm
Several things are referred to as “squibs.” In explosives, a squib is a small explosive device which works almost like a miniature stick of dynamite. The term is also used more generally to refer to deceptively small things, like an explosive comment in a conversation or a small sailboat which can be used for high speed racing. For fans of the Harry Potter novels, a squib is a child born to a magical family who lacks magical ability; the term is taken from an English slang phrase, “squib,” which refers to a firework which fails to ignite.

In the sense of explosives, a squib is a small tube packed with an explosive charge. It can be detonated with a fuse or a remote control, depending on how it is wired. Despite the small size, a squib can pack a serious explosive punch which makes it extremely useful. Early squibs were used to detonate cannons, since their smaller charge could rapidly ignite the powder in the cannon, firing the cannonball.

There are other uses for squibs. These small explosives can cause a rapid expansion of gases, for example, and they are the force behind air bags in cars. Squibs are also used in special effects for film and stage; one common use of squibs is as fake bullets which will explode blood packs worn by actors to make it look as though the actor has been hit. Fireworks professionals may also use squibs in the course of their work, as will other explosive experts.

Squibs also pop up in some interesting places. They are the power behind ejection seats in military aircraft, for example, and they are also used in planes to throw out chaff, which distracts approaching aircraft or missiles.

This explosives use led to slang terms like “wet squib,” since a squib which is wet cannot light up, because the moisture soaks the charge and the fuse. Some regions of the world simply refer to any dud firework as a squib.

In the world of Harry Potter, squibs are relatively unusual, and they are sometimes viewed as figures of pity. Because they are born into a magical world, they are aware of their potential, and they may also experience pressure from their families to express magical abilities. Some squibs live at the fringes of the magical world as servants and clerks, while others pursue lives in the muggle community, where they will not be constantly reminded of their failure
« Last Edit: 21/09/2008 09:13:13 by DoctorBeaver »
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Offline Make it Lady

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« Reply #24 on: 21/09/2008 21:34:22 »
Sorry, I'm b,d dyslexic so often get them in a muddle or should that be muggle! Anyway, I think my mistake makes for a much funnier expression. I can just image a damp squid!
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Offline techmind

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How Long Before LHC Results Are Announced?
« Reply #25 on: 22/09/2008 20:48:10 »
...makes for a much funnier expression. I can just image a damp squid!
...using neilep's Box Brownie I assume :-)


Why do they shut down for winter? Are they all going skiing?
Apparently it's partly to save on energy costs. I assume the electricity gets more expensive in the winter, and when they're pumping nearly 5MW of RF power into the ring (see a different thread), and probably a fair amount more to keep everything else (vacuum pumps, experimental equipment, air-con,...) running, that's got to add up to a big bill.

At UK domestic prices, 5MW 24/7 would be somewhere upwards of £17000 per day (£6M per year). Or, put another way, roughly equivalent to the salary of 200+ post-doc scientists to run the thing...


Another consideration is that such facilities require periodic maintenance and upgrades, and some of these put the machine out of action (or well outside optimum operating conditions) for many weeks owing to having warmed things up, or lost vacuum somewhere. It makes sense to shut the machine down for a few months per year and do all the work in one go.

Unlike most of academia, the facility will run 24/7 (I assume it's like the other big-science facilities), which means people work shifts. A 2-minute walk at 4am in December will take the skin off your face!
And no-one, especially all the international researchers will want to be working over Christmas. ;-)
« Last Edit: 22/09/2008 21:01:57 by techmind »
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Offline Make it Lady

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« Reply #26 on: 22/09/2008 22:39:45 »
I guess that answers my question. To summerise they can't afford the lecky to power their ring and they don't want to lose the skin from their faces after a quicky in the cold. I get it!

I guess the final questions must be is it good value for money, research wise? What will we do with the data that comes from this? Will it make the world a better place?
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Offline DoctorBeaver

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« Reply #27 on: 24/09/2008 09:20:36 »

I guess the final questions must be is it good value for money, research wise? What will we do with the data that comes from this? Will it make the world a better place?


Most scientific advances eventually bring benefit - but most commonly to the rich, developd countries. As such, it is probable that any discoveries at the LHC will not "make the world a better place".

However, there is also the chance that something new & exciting will be discovered that could have profound implications for science as we currently understand it. If some theories are right and gravity becomes strong at 1TeV, then it is possible that a new source of sustainable energy could be achieved, although it would obviously take many years before any realistic implimentation comes to fruition (take the example of nuclear fusion reactors - after a squillion years of research & experiment we still haven't got a working model).
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