Why Is It Difficult For Hoppy (My ear) To hear Underwater ?

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Offline neilep

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Dearest Ewe Lot,

See Hoppy ?

[attachment=4807]

Hoppy is my ear ! (Run Hoppy Run !)

Sound travels much faster underwater yes ?...is it amplified too ?

..anyway, if sound travels a lot better underwater then why is it more difficult for Hoppy (my ear...Stop Hoppy Stop !) to hear underwater ?..ie: it's loud but not clear !

Why's that then ?

Thanks


Neil
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« Last Edit: 09/10/2008 11:42:56 by neilep »
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Offline rosalind dna

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Why Is It Difficult For Hoppy (My ear) To hear Underwater ?
« Reply #1 on: 09/10/2008 11:53:23 »
Hi Neil
You have posted similar threads on TNS recently.

http://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?topic=16642.0
http://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?topic=12241.0

This thread from 24/08/08 is very similar in it's topic/theme to this one asking about:  What Would Happen To My Ear If Left Indefinitely In Water ?

http://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?topic=16642.0


Yes hearing is amplified underwater because the normal gravity is amplified.

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She discovered the Single DNA Helix in 1953, then it was taken by Wilkins without her knowledge or agreeement.

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Offline Karen W.

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Why Is It Difficult For Hoppy (My ear) To hear Underwater ?
« Reply #2 on: 09/10/2008 11:53:56 »
I would think the water puts pressure on the eardrum and perhaps stops the sound from bouncing off the drum as easily as it would normally without water causing less vibration in the ear and muffling the sound instead.. that doesn't mean it doesn't travel fast through the water.. but perhaps the water barricades the drum some..

Just a guess.. lets see if I am anywhere near close the answer.. LOL

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Offline neilep

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Why Is It Difficult For Hoppy (My ear) To hear Underwater ?
« Reply #3 on: 09/10/2008 12:02:52 »
Hi Neil
You have posted similar threads on TNS recently.

http://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?topic=16642.0
http://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?topic=12241.0

This thread from 24/08/08 is very similar in it's topic/theme to this one asking about:  What Would Happen To My Ear If Left Indefinitely In Water ?

http://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?topic=16642.0


Yes hearing is amplified underwater because the normal gravity is amplified.



Thank Ewe Rosalind. And I really appreciate the links to other ear related threads that I have asked. I am pleased that in this case I have not just repeated my questions , but have in fact asked a completely different question specifically regarding hearing underwater.

Though, I had to use my Rabbit ear piccy again because it's so cute. Though, I do get strange looks when doing the school run and pick the children up with a carrot sticking out of my ear !!   [;D]
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Offline neilep

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Why Is It Difficult For Hoppy (My ear) To hear Underwater ?
« Reply #4 on: 09/10/2008 12:03:44 »
I would think the water puts pressure on the eardrum and perhaps stops the sound from bouncing off the drum as easily as it would normally without water causing less vibration in the ear and muffling the sound instead.. that doesn't mean it doesn't travel fast through the water.. but perhaps the water barricades the drum some..

Just a guess.. lets see if I am anywhere near close the answer.. LOL

Thank ewe Karen.

Do ewe think this means that the eardrum is also completely submerged in water then ?
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Offline Karen W.

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Why Is It Difficult For Hoppy (My ear) To hear Underwater ?
« Reply #5 on: 09/10/2008 12:12:08 »
I was assuming you meant if your ear was under water and completely submerged,when the sound was being made.. Is that what you meant? Or did you mean with your ear out would you hear the noise louder because the noise was traveling through the water?

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Offline neilep

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Why Is It Difficult For Hoppy (My ear) To hear Underwater ?
« Reply #6 on: 09/10/2008 12:15:16 »
I was assuming you meant if your ear was under water and completely submerged,when the sound was being made.. Is that what you meant? Or did you mean with your ear out would you hear the noise louder because the noise was traveling through the water?

yes, I did mean that Hoppy would be totally submerged...I was  wondering if air pressure protected the ear drum from being submerged too and thus was wondering why the sound was muffled !

sorry..not good at explaining !
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Offline Karen W.

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Why Is It Difficult For Hoppy (My ear) To hear Underwater ?
« Reply #7 on: 09/10/2008 12:27:05 »
Air pressure? I don't understand how air pressure could prevent the eardrum from being submerged??I would think your head would be weighty enough to submerge the eardrum .. LOl I think I am still confused,, Hee hee,,

Not water pressure?

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Offline neilep

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Why Is It Difficult For Hoppy (My ear) To hear Underwater ?
« Reply #8 on: 09/10/2008 12:36:09 »
I mean the air would as act a physical barrier to the water.....

..oh...lets just say I am even more tired than ewe !... [:)]
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Offline Karen W.

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Why Is It Difficult For Hoppy (My ear) To hear Underwater ?
« Reply #9 on: 09/10/2008 12:41:36 »
I know what you mean now.. I think.. like say your ear was a cup.. and you set the cup inverted straight down into the water would the air trapped in the ear act as a barrier to the drum then? That might make sense if your ear is set straight into the water ear side down.. and not back of head down and ear filled with water and air displaced! Right?

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Offline RD

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Why Is It Difficult For Hoppy (My ear) To hear Underwater ?
« Reply #10 on: 09/10/2008 13:20:32 »
then why is it more difficult for Hoppy (my ear...Stop Hoppy Stop !) to hear underwater ?..ie: it's loud but not clear


Underwater sound is "not clear" because frequency dependent attenuation causes high frequency sounds to be absorbed much more than the low frequency sounds.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attenuation
« Last Edit: 09/10/2008 13:36:19 by RD »

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blakestyger

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Why Is It Difficult For Hoppy (My ear) To hear Underwater ?
« Reply #11 on: 09/10/2008 14:42:24 »
Are both your ears mounted at that rakish angle?
What caused it - childhood encounter with railings?
Were the fire brigade really that rough?

 [;D]

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lyner

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Why Is It Difficult For Hoppy (My ear) To hear Underwater ?
« Reply #12 on: 09/10/2008 14:44:13 »
Your ears are specially developed to extract the very last bit of energy from the sound that you hear in air. This is achieved by 'matching' the impedance of the air (a very low density medium) to the medium in your cochlea which is more dense. Basically, the air is a low impedance medium - it carries the energy in waves with lowish pressure vibrations and relatively great movement of the particles. In a liquid, the same energy level consists of larger pressure variations and much less movement (it is pretty much incompressible). The drum starts the process and the tiny bones (ossicles) act like levers to achieve the matching, reducing the movement and increasing the force.

If your ear is under water the medium has high impedance and the ear's mechanism only serves to reduce the movement even further. You would be better off without all that Nature's Technology!

From memory, I think I have 'heard' sounds through the base of my neck rather than through my ears. Well, it felt like it.

btw, Ignore the ribald remarks. Even the dung beetle's mother thinks it is beautiful.

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Offline neilep

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Why Is It Difficult For Hoppy (My ear) To hear Underwater ?
« Reply #13 on: 09/10/2008 16:36:42 »
then why is it more difficult for Hoppy (my ear...Stop Hoppy Stop !) to hear underwater ?..ie: it's loud but not clear


Underwater sound is "not clear" because frequency dependent attenuation causes high frequency sounds to be absorbed much more than the low frequency sounds.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attenuation


Many Thanks RD..this is very helpful.
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Offline neilep

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Why Is It Difficult For Hoppy (My ear) To hear Underwater ?
« Reply #14 on: 09/10/2008 16:37:46 »
Are both your ears mounted at that rakish angle?
What caused it - childhood encounter with railings?
Were the fire brigade really that rough?

 [;D]

Yes...they abused my ears !..the damned ear abusers !!
Men are the same as women, just inside out !

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Offline neilep

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Why Is It Difficult For Hoppy (My ear) To hear Underwater ?
« Reply #15 on: 09/10/2008 16:41:44 »
Your ears are specially developed to extract the very last bit of energy from the sound that you hear in air. This is achieved by 'matching' the impedance of the air (a very low density medium) to the medium in your cochlea which is more dense. Basically, the air is a low impedance medium - it carries the energy in waves with lowish pressure vibrations and relatively great movement of the particles. In a liquid, the same energy level consists of larger pressure variations and much less movement (it is pretty much incompressible). The drum starts the process and the tiny bones (ossicles) act like levers to achieve the matching, reducing the movement and increasing the force.

If your ear is under water the medium has high impedance and the ear's mechanism only serves to reduce the movement even further. You would be better off without all that Nature's Technology!

From memory, I think I have 'heard' sounds through the base of my neck rather than through my ears. Well, it felt like it.

btw, Ignore the ribald remarks. Even the dung beetle's mother thinks it is beautiful.

I think Dung beetles are very pretty too !

Thank ewe Sophiecentaur.

This is fascinating and I actually understand it !.. *falls over in disbelief*


Thanks to Everybody for their helpful and insightful answers !
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Offline rosalind dna

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Why Is It Difficult For Hoppy (My ear) To hear Underwater ?
« Reply #16 on: 09/10/2008 17:19:23 »
Neil this is what the DUNG BEETLE use for their dens and food
as this YouTube clip shows:  (YUK)

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=I1RHmSm36aE

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dung_beetle
Rosalind Franklin was my first cousin and one my life's main regrets is that I never met this brilliant and beautiful lady.
She discovered the Single DNA Helix in 1953, then it was taken by Wilkins without her knowledge or agreeement.

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lyner

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Why Is It Difficult For Hoppy (My ear) To hear Underwater ?
« Reply #17 on: 09/10/2008 17:44:38 »
Quote
Thanks to Everybody for their helpful and insightful answers !
I thought they were inhearingfull answers, actually.

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Offline Make it Lady

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Why Is It Difficult For Hoppy (My ear) To hear Underwater ?
« Reply #18 on: 09/10/2008 18:08:00 »
'ear 'ear!
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Offline rosalind dna

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Rosalind Franklin was my first cousin and one my life's main regrets is that I never met this brilliant and beautiful lady.
She discovered the Single DNA Helix in 1953, then it was taken by Wilkins without her knowledge or agreeement.

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Offline RD

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Why Is It Difficult For Hoppy (My ear) To hear Underwater ?
« Reply #20 on: 09/10/2008 20:39:44 »
From memory, I think I have 'heard' sounds through the base of my neck rather than through my ears.

I have read that when Beethoven was becoming deaf he would compose at the piano with a stick between his teeth which was touching the piano: the stick conducted sound better than air.
« Last Edit: 09/10/2008 20:45:11 by RD »

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Offline neilep

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Why Is It Difficult For Hoppy (My ear) To hear Underwater ?
« Reply #21 on: 10/10/2008 11:37:24 »
Quote
Thanks to Everybody for their helpful and insightful answers !
I thought they were inhearingfull answers, actually.

Men are the same as women, just inside out !

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Offline neilep

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Why Is It Difficult For Hoppy (My ear) To hear Underwater ?
« Reply #22 on: 10/10/2008 11:38:47 »
Neil this is what the DUNG BEETLE use for their dens and food
as this YouTube clip shows:  (YUK)

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=I1RHmSm36aE

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dung_beetle


I do that with my poop too !!
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blakestyger

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Why Is It Difficult For Hoppy (My ear) To hear Underwater ?
« Reply #23 on: 10/10/2008 15:52:03 »
This was one of the One Hundred Things to do Before You Die - have your poo rolled away by a dung beetle.  [;D]

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lyner

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Why Is It Difficult For Hoppy (My ear) To hear Underwater ?
« Reply #24 on: 10/10/2008 23:21:55 »
Quote
Beethoven was becoming deaf he would compose at the piano
Now he's decomposing. Boom boom.

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Offline Soul Surfer

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Why Is It Difficult For Hoppy (My ear) To hear Underwater ?
« Reply #25 on: 14/10/2008 19:37:47 »
It is true that the ear is best designed to hear sounds transmitted in air rather than water but there is also another factor involved.  The coupling of energy between water and air is very poor and there is usually a bubble of air still in your ears when you go under water.  If you swim under water and make sure all the air bubbles get out of your outer ear and couple the water directly on to your eardrum you can hear a lot better underwater.  I used to do this in my childhood when I was training to become a fish!  However I do not reccommend that you do this too often or for too long because it tends to result in "surfer's ear" a nasty problem where you ear which does not like to be full of water decides to close the gap to stop you putting water in it.  this tends to result in poor hearing when you are in the air.
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