What particle carries magnetic field?

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Offline manjit

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What particle carries magnetic field?
« on: 09/11/2008 19:03:22 »
Hi All!

I have tried to find out about the nature of the particles that carries magnetic field (not EM filed), but have not managed it. Can someone of you there explain what particles carries magnetic field if it is carried by particles?

Thanks for all inputs!
manjit

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Offline DoctorBeaver

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What particle carries magnetic field?
« Reply #1 on: 09/11/2008 23:19:46 »
Magnetic fields are not produced by particles. Photons mediate the electromagnetic force, but that is not the same as a field.

I don't really understand the nature of fields, but I think a field is area that has the potential to allow bosons that mediate the force associated with that field to actually do so. The greater the potential of the field, the more the bosons do their job and the force is stronger.

I dare say 1 of our physics gurus will correct me.
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lyner

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What particle carries magnetic field?
« Reply #2 on: 10/11/2008 10:12:58 »
To get down to basics. A Field is the gradient of Energy (potential).
Change in potential = field times distance moved
or, more familiarly,
Work = Force X distance
In a strong field, the potential changes rapidly with distance and vice versa.
If a field changes or something moves along the field, some energy is transfered and the potential changes.
With electromagnetic fields, photons are involved when there are changes (i.e the photon 'carries' the energy). The 'magnetic field' in the original post implies no change (?) so the corresponding photon would have zero frequency and no energy. BUT, as it wouldn't have always been there and it won't always be there so it must have involved some change with time. There would be a finite frequency associated with this photon plus some associated Electric Field.
« Last Edit: 10/11/2008 10:25:24 by sophiecentaur »

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Offline DoctorBeaver

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« Reply #3 on: 10/11/2008 11:44:34 »
SC - is this more-or-less correct then?

Quote
...a field is area that has the potential to allow bosons that mediate the force associated with that field to actually do so. The greater the potential of the field, the more the bosons do their job and the force is stronger.

In very simplistic terms, of course.
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lyner

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« Reply #4 on: 10/11/2008 15:15:58 »
I don't feel qualified to comment on what you're saying. You are using terms like potential and field in a way I'm not familiar with.
I know the word 'mediate' is popular but I'm not really sure what it means in this context.
We need to phone a friend, I think.

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Offline DoctorBeaver

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« Reply #5 on: 10/11/2008 15:34:03 »
"Mediate" is the term I've seen used in most physics textbooks to mean "carrying the force".

I mean "potential" in layman's terms - i.e. it has the potential of doing something.
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lyner

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« Reply #6 on: 10/11/2008 18:22:45 »
OK - potential has really the same meaning for me except it refers specifically to the 'potential to do work'.
Gravitational potential is the energy / work in raising 1kg of mass and electrical potential is the energy involved in moving 1 Coulomb of charge from place to place.
For 'mediate' I would take mild issue with the expression 'carry the force'; it implies a piece of rope connecting two objects.  I think 'mediate' is a word that was deliberately introduced so that they wouldn't have to cope with preconceptions which other words might bring with them.
Mediating, politically and socially, means bringing together or coupling so I can see where they're coming from. Personally, I go for Energy rather than Force in any explanation because Force, on its own doesn't necessarily mean that anything is happening or changing; the force has to move (work done) for that to happen.
I could happily say that "Photons mediate the electromagnetic interaction of two charges", for instance.

I wish that friend would answer the 'phone!

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Offline DoctorBeaver

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« Reply #7 on: 10/11/2008 18:39:56 »
To nediate means "To act as a go-between or arbiter". A go-between seems apt.
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Offline Soul Surfer

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What particle carries magnetic field?
« Reply #8 on: 10/11/2008 19:25:51 »
To go back to answering the original question posed.

Magnetic monopoles have been proposed but are unlikely to exist.

All charged fermions (particles with a half integer spin) like electrons and the components of protons have a magnetic field like a little bar magnet and it is this that is used to control their spin directions.

I also think that the neutral fermions  like neutrinos also have magnetic fields associated with them that are seen as part of "neutral currents" in certain rare high energy weak interactions.

so many particles carry magnetic fields as many particles carry electrical charges.

This can more easily be understood if one considers atoms with highly unbalanced residual spins  (like iron and a few other atoms)  These can form permanent magnets  where a lot of the residual fields can be aligned and locked in a similar direction to create a large overall magnetic field.
« Last Edit: 10/11/2008 19:30:43 by Soul Surfer »
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lyner

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« Reply #9 on: 10/11/2008 21:38:00 »
Having read the question again I am not really sure what it is really asking. The magnetic field of a fermion is a dipole - so that could just be the answer - except does it actually 'carry' the field?
I interpreted it more in terms of the 'mediate' word - implying the idea of causing the field to produce a force on something else. Hence my photon idea.

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Offline DoctorBeaver

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« Reply #10 on: 10/11/2008 23:09:37 »
Quote
I interpreted it more in terms of the 'mediate' word - implying the idea of causing the field to produce a force on something else. Hence my photon idea.

Me too
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Offline yor_on

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« Reply #11 on: 11/11/2008 00:35:45 »
"
Permanent magnets

A few elements -- especially iron, cobalt, and nickel -- are ferromagnetic at room temperature. When quantum mechanics and the Pauli Exclusion Principle are accounted for, the electrical energy within these atoms is found to be lower if the magnetic moments of the valence electrons are aligned. This makes them ferromagnetic.

Every ferromagnet has its own individual temperature, called the Curie temperature, or Curie point, above which it loses its ferromagnetic properties. This is because the thermal tendency to disorder overwhelms the energy lowering due to ferromagnetic order. A perfectly aligned ferromagnet is said to have long-range order because all of its atoms have their magnetic moments pointing in the same direction.

Real ferromagnets are not perfectly aligned, but rather contain perfectly aligned regions, called magnetic domains, which have their own magnetization directions. A long bar magnet appears to have a north pole at one end and a south pole at the other. Near either end the magnetic field falls off inversely with the square of the distance from that pole.

For a magnet of any shape, at distances large compared to its size, the strength of the magnetic field falls off inversely with the cube of the distance from the magnet's center."

Look at http://www.answers.com/topic/magnet

And as you seem to be wondering about 'magnetic domains'
http://www.answers.com/topic/magnetic-domains

but if you're wondering if there is a explanation that really describe the phenomena for what it is?
No, not that I know at least:)

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" In QED, forces between particles of matter are mediated by the collision of photons with electrons and the accompanying momentum transfer.

So streams of photons must leave each of the two magnets of (Two horse shoe magnets placed against each other S/North and N/South, with a copperplate placed in the middle, separating their 'ends' from each other ) spontaneously and forever, and then pass through a copper plate, finally colliding with electrons at the surface and deep inside the opposite horseshoe magnets.

A simple collision between two articles produces repulsion, therefore in order to generate attraction between the magnets, the photons must navigate around the magnets, turn and strike them in the back.

This mechanism is so ludicrous that it will not be found discussed in textbooks. Nor will most professors mention it to a class of students."

I would dearly like to know if there is any good explanation of this phenomena :)
........

Ah, I used to have a slightly less controversial source for this last one.
but I can't find it anymore :(
I found this one instead (not as innocent presumably)
So I will have to reread it to see how they think, but.
As it mentions the experiment I will use it.

It's more easy to see the idea graphically.
http://www.worldscibooks.com/phy_etextbook/6087/6087_chap1.pdf
« Last Edit: 11/11/2008 01:21:28 by yor_on »
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lyner

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What particle carries magnetic field?
« Reply #12 on: 11/11/2008 13:38:22 »
Yor_on
Quote
This mechanism is so ludicrous
It's only ludicrous is you choose to think of photons as being little bullets. They have to occupy a region which is at least as big as the wavelength involved (I could rant on for ever about this) and, for mechanical collisions, the time constant is very large so the associated photon frequency is very low and the wavelength huge.  The photon can easily be regarded as sloshing all over the objects involved in the collision.
We all know that Professors are whimps and avoid controversy in their lectures.
Also, just 'cos you're a prof doesn't mean you've thought absolutely everything through properly - there just isn't time.

But, to relate this to the original question - we're still talking about Electric field effects too.

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Offline yor_on

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« Reply #13 on: 11/11/2008 14:12:29 »
Sophie.
you say "They have to occupy a region which is at least as big as the wavelength involved "
And by setting a low time constant you will get a large wave in 'space'.
And so you are invoking the uncertainty principle if I read you right?
A little like tunneling then?

'Rant' on Sophie, I'm curious:)
Btw: Your answer makes a certain 'sense', but I want more examples::))
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lyner

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« Reply #14 on: 11/11/2008 14:21:05 »
I'm referring to the fact that diffraction is a fundamental limitation where waves are concerned. You need to consider waves if you want to know whether a photon is likely to 'turn up' somewhere or not.
In the same way that we are more than happy to talk in terms of an electron wave function when it is in a bound state then I think it is quite in order to talk waves when there is an interaction with a photon. That implies that we should / can treat the way this photon interacts with this magnet as if the photon is a wave, if we want to describe how things work.
Isn't that the most reasonable thing you've read this afternoon?

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Offline JP

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« Reply #15 on: 11/11/2008 18:55:00 »
This is slightly off-topic, but I saw a talk by Sir Peter Knight recently where he discussed some recent work on doing a rigorous quantum-mechanical calculation of single-photon diffraction from 1-slit and 2-slit setups.  The punchline was that it matched up with what you get from using classical waves.  The calculation was so computationally intensive to do that you'd never want to use the photon treatment for diffraction in practice, however.

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Offline lightarrow

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What particle carries magnetic field?
« Reply #16 on: 11/11/2008 19:04:44 »
Hi All!

I have tried to find out about the nature of the particles that carries magnetic field (not EM filed), but have not managed it. Can someone of you there explain what particles carries magnetic field if it is carried by particles?

Thanks for all inputs!
manjit
They have already answered you, however I just want to add this.
In Maxwell's equations you find:

div E = -ρ/ε0

it means that electric charges (ρ is their density) are responsible of static electric field (E).
But there is also written:

div B = 0

(B is the magnetic field)
which means that there are not magnetic charges.

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lyner

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What particle carries magnetic field?
« Reply #17 on: 11/11/2008 19:53:52 »
This is slightly off-topic, but I saw a talk by Sir Peter Knight recently where he discussed some recent work on doing a rigorous quantum-mechanical calculation of single-photon diffraction from 1-slit and 2-slit setups.  The punchline was that it matched up with what you get from using classical waves.  The calculation was so computationally intensive to do that you'd never want to use the photon treatment for diffraction in practice, however.
Nothing would surprise me less.

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lyner

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« Reply #18 on: 11/11/2008 19:54:59 »
Well put, lightarrow, as usual.

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Offline manjit

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« Reply #19 on: 12/11/2008 20:16:37 »
Many warm thanks to all of you who has spent their time and effort to try to explain it. I must admit that most of the responses are above my ability to understand, but I understand  a bit more now than before.
manjit

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Offline erickejah

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« Reply #20 on: 13/11/2008 03:39:47 »
really interesting.  [:)]

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Offline yor_on

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« Reply #21 on: 13/11/2008 11:45:27 »
Ah Sophie, you are a voice of reason:)
And I'm not joking there.

How would I dare disagree with such logic?
But I will try, not so much disagreeing, more like not being fully satisfied:)

Tell me Sophie, if you pinch your self, does it not hurt?
And that skin of yours, is it then not different from bone, from stone?

So if all is explainable as waves what about invariant mass?
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lyner

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What particle carries magnetic field?
« Reply #22 on: 13/11/2008 12:53:42 »
All I was implying is that treating photons as little bullets is very blinkered. Treating them as small helpings of Energy (the original reason for introducing the concept), constrained by a wave gives rise to no problems yet resolves a lot of apparent paradoxes.

Where does invariant mass prove to be a problem in this respect? Perhaps you could include 'what mass is' in that explanation.

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Offline yor_on

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« Reply #23 on: 13/11/2008 15:56:16 »
Sophie, to me it is a constant source of consternation.
Most things in QM can be explained, as you write, as "small helpings of Energy (the original reason for introducing the concept), constrained by a wave".
But then we have 'matter' (invariant mass) and to me it is to its 'nature' definitely unlike any of those concepts:)
It's not energy, even though it can be 'expressed' as it and 'transformed' into it.
It have an equivalence, but is a totally different 'state' if you see how i think.
And I can't reconcile it with waves only.

And I would love to be able to "include 'what mass is"
:)
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Offline lightarrow

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« Reply #24 on: 13/11/2008 18:27:41 »
Sophie, to me it is a constant source of consternation.
Most things in QM can be explained, as you write, as "small helpings of Energy (the original reason for introducing the concept), constrained by a wave".
But then we have 'matter' (invariant mass) and to me it is to its 'nature' definitely unlike any of those concepts:)
It's not energy, even though it can be 'expressed' as it and 'transformed' into it.
It have an equivalence, but is a totally different 'state' if you see how i think.
And I can't reconcile it with waves only.

And I would love to be able to "include 'what mass is"
:)

Take a ray of light and confine it in a fixed space (for ex. a box). Now the light has mass.

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Offline yor_on

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« Reply #25 on: 14/11/2008 00:38:37 »
Good one, but nah:)
The light still only has 'momentum'

The box though, if clad in a totally reflective material, will exhibit an added mass.
But it sure phreaks me out:)
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Offline lightarrow

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« Reply #26 on: 14/11/2008 12:34:06 »
Good one, but nah:)
The light still only has 'momentum'

The box though, if clad in a totally reflective material, will exhibit an added mass.
But it sure phreaks me out:)
A couple of photons not travelling in the same direction has mass, because you can find a reference frame where the total momentum of the system is 0:

E2 = (Mc2)2 + (cP)2

E = energy of the two photons' system = E1 + E2 = 2E1, with two equal photons, where E1 is a single photon's energy (energy is additive).
M = mass of the two photons' system.
P = momentum of the two photons' system = P1 + P2 where P1 and P2 are the momenta of the  photon 1 and 2, respectively.

A single photon's momentum is, in modulus: |P1| = |P2| = E1/c.

So, if the two photons are not travelling in the same direction:

|P| = |P1 + P2| < 2|P1| = 2E1/c

so

P2 = |P|2 < 4E12/c2   →   -P2 > -4E12/c2

(Mc2)2 = E2 - (cP)2 = (2E1)2 - c2P2 > 4E12 - c24E12/c2 = 0

so

(Mc2)2 > 0

that is:

M > 0.

So it's light which has mass when confined in a fixed space.

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Offline yor_on

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« Reply #27 on: 14/11/2008 15:25:50 »
lightarrow, are you referring to momentum as mass?
As that, as I see it, is what gives the box the added 'weight'
And do you see it as being 'invariant' mass?

You wrote 'A couple of photons not traveling in the same direction has mass, because you can find a reference frame where the total momentum of the system is 0:'
If you by that mean that photons 'meeting' each other will, when treated as a 'whole system', take out each others momentum as seen inside that system?
I think I will agree
(Thinking of that proficiency shown in your math, it would be downright suicidal to do otherwise, right:)
Ahh, a small Joke there...Innocent Sir, totally innocent I insist.

But yes that's true.
Rather elegant in fact:)
But doesn't that negate mass too then?
« Last Edit: 14/11/2008 18:18:36 by yor_on »
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Offline lightarrow

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« Reply #28 on: 14/11/2008 20:24:21 »
lightarrow, are you referring to momentum as mass?
No.

Quote
And do you see it as being 'invariant' mass?
Exactly. Weird, isnt'it?

Quote
You wrote 'A couple of photons not traveling in the same direction has mass, because you can find a reference frame where the total momentum of the system is 0:'
If you by that mean that photons 'meeting' each other will, when treated as a 'whole system', take out each others momentum as seen inside that system?
They can "meet" each other or recede.

Quote
I think I will agree
(Thinking of that proficiency shown in your math, it would be downright suicidal to do otherwise, right:)
I had already done the computations in another thread on this forum, some months ago... [:)]

Quote
I think I will agree
(Thinking of that proficiency shown in your math, it would be downright suicidal to do otherwise, right:)
Ahh, a small Joke there...Innocent Sir, totally innocent I insist.

But yes that's true.
Rather elegant in fact:)
But doesn't that negate mass too then?
Mass (of every kind) is just energy confined in a fixed space, nothing more than this.
« Last Edit: 14/11/2008 20:28:18 by lightarrow »

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Offline yor_on

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« Reply #29 on: 15/11/2008 09:56:32 »
Yes it's very weird.
Where does this 'transformation' take place?
And how can it do it.

Normally when you think of 'energy' or spacetime creating particles there has to be a lot of energy involved right, if we're not talking virtual partickles.
But here you just need to 'enclose' a photon, or if you like, wavepacket, oh ok, a lightquanta then, qubits? Ahhhhhh...(running away into the wilderness, while repetitively calling 'Glooria')
:)
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Offline lightarrow

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« Reply #30 on: 15/11/2008 13:28:30 »
Yes it's very weird.
Where does this 'transformation' take place?
And how can it do it.
Do you mean the "transformation" mass <--> energy?

Quote
Normally when you think of 'energy' or spacetime creating particles there has to be a lot of energy involved right, if we're not talking virtual partickles.
But here you just need to 'enclose' a photon, or if you like, wavepacket, oh ok, a lightquanta then, qubits? Ahhhhhh...(running away into the wilderness, while repetitively calling 'Glooria')
:)
About composed systems, for example an atom, you find that part of the energy (and so part of the mass) is present in the form of the field binding the electrons to the nucleus. About elementary particles we still don't have models (apart from string theory) describing them as made of some kind of confined fields. Just as curiosity, some times ago I saw a model of the electron as made of electromagnetic radiation interacting in a strange way with itself (the wave is "warped around" a small region of space, so that to canceal the magnetic field by destructive interference but not the electric field and so giving rise to the electric charge!) but it was just a speculation. (Now the author will write me and say "What speculation? It's a serious theory!"  [:)]).

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Offline yor_on

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« Reply #31 on: 15/11/2008 16:42:02 »
Nope;)
He will write you and congratulate you to your show of common sense, as you now at last admit to his theory's inherent strength and beauty.
And wait until you see mine...

As an small appetizer I will confide in that it involve AVGP instead of a BB.
Yes A...V...G...P!!!
 
« Last Edit: 15/11/2008 16:46:05 by yor_on »
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Offline Soul Surfer

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« Reply #32 on: 16/11/2008 23:31:24 »
Lightarrow.  Mass (of every kind) is just energy confined in a fixed space, nothing more than this.

An interesting thought. Does the size of the fixed space matter.  Suppose our universe was a fixed space that confined the energy in the universe (like the inside of a black hole) could that mean that the total electromagnetic energy in the universe reperesented a significant effective mass?
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Offline lightarrow

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« Reply #33 on: 17/11/2008 13:31:57 »
Lightarrow.  Mass (of every kind) is just energy confined in a fixed space, nothing more than this.

An interesting thought. Does the size of the fixed space matter.  Suppose our universe was a fixed space that confined the energy in the universe (like the inside of a black hole) could that mean that the total electromagnetic energy in the universe reperesented a significant effective mass?
This is not bad too as thought  [:)] I suppose it should be so.

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Offline labview1958

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« Reply #34 on: 21/11/2008 00:19:03 »
My hunch is that mass bends space. A magnet has mass thus bends space. However if a North pole of a magnet is brought near another North pole, space is bend in a way as to "repel" them. Similarly if unlike poles are brought together space is bend another way as to "attract"
 

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Offline lightarrow

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« Reply #35 on: 21/11/2008 15:19:22 »
My hunch is that mass bends space.
Of course.

Quote
A magnet has mass thus bends space.
There are many things which have mass, not only a magnet: stones, trees, ants, you...Probably you intended to talk about "magnetic field"?

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Offline nicephotog

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« Reply #36 on: 23/11/2008 11:57:27 »
..."invariant mass?"... shell orbit level by charge...
Wave mechanics and Geometry!!!, my favourite, if i ever get out of the old kingdom and intermediate one for my Dingos which probably came from Ancient Chinese explorerers not Egyptian war dogs bred on another continent for Pharoah, i can have some mathematical fun not encryptive decyphering by block interpretations.
http://www.nicephotog-jsp.net/Dingone.pdf
http://www.awarenessquest.com/research.htm


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Offline yor_on

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« Reply #37 on: 26/11/2008 10:30:14 »
A V G P

Well, ah 'somebody' gave birth to our universe via it.
And indeed it was, and is, a very good party.
And thats the truth about AVGP:)
« Last Edit: 26/11/2008 10:37:13 by yor_on »
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Offline labview1958

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What particle carries magnetic field?
« Reply #38 on: 26/11/2008 13:23:36 »
I am implying a magnet of 1 kg.  bends space in a certain way. These bending is different from a  1 kg of non-magnet material.
 

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Offline lightarrow

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What particle carries magnetic field?
« Reply #39 on: 26/11/2008 15:01:38 »
I am implying a magnet of 1 kg.  bends space in a certain way. These bending is different from a  1 kg of non-magnet material.
So you are talking about the magnetic field, not the magnet.

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Offline Mark Tillotson

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What particle carries magnetic field?
« Reply #40 on: 04/06/2009 19:59:57 »
Hi All!

I have tried to find out about the nature of the particles that carries magnetic field (not EM filed), but have not managed it. Can someone of you there explain what particles carries magnetic field if it is carried by particles?

Thanks for all inputs!
manjit

Your problem is in assuming a magnetic field and an e-m field are separate things - they are not, electricy and magnetism are two aspects of the same "stuff" described by Maxwell's equations, and in quantum terms by QED (quantum electro-dynamics).  Photons are the force carrier.

However it is more illuminating I think to view magnetism as the relatavistic correction to electro-statics, as this is more intuitive than Maxwell's equations or Diracs (I'd imagine!).

If you have a wire with a current flowing, there are moving electrons and stationary positive charges - straightaway the Lorentz transformation will tell you that something interesting happens since the linear charge-densities seen by an observer depend on the velocity of the observer, and if the observer is charged, there will in general be "electro static" forces.

Even though the Lorentz corrections are tiny at the typical drift velocities of electrons in a typical wire, remember the amount of charge is vast (Faradays of charge) so that any minute imbalance in charge density between positive and negative will lead to a measurable force.

So what I'm really saying is that magnetism is reducible (in some sense) to electric fields plus special relativity.  There is no magnetism without moving charges (or changing electric fields).  The neat thing is that the magnetic effects can be described by a field abstraction.

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Offline kongkokhaw

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What particle carries magnetic field?
« Reply #41 on: 07/06/2009 14:36:23 »
Base on my understanding, particles are made of electric and magnetic field. This can be observed from the processes of pair production, annihilation, radioactive decay, collision of particles and etc. From these processes, matter and wave are interchangable. The ingredients of wave is electric and magnetic fields, hence, the ingredients of matters/particles are also the electric and magnetic fields.

Atom itself is not a stuffed or solid 'object', it is the magnetic and electric (M&E) fields in a different form that make up the volumetric size. the electric field corresponds to the charge of the particles. while the magnetic field corresponds to the quantized energy level of the particles. Figure below illustrates the structure of an atom.


Magnetic gauss line is the energy level of the atom, represented by n=1 and n=2. Electrons are orbiting on these quantized energy level. These quantized energy levels are the home of electrons.

For atom, the charge is defined as positive charge and it possesses different level of quantized energy line depending on the charges. For electron, the charge is given as negative charge. Electron is spinning at the speed of light, therefore, it has the smallest size in the category of particles.

In general, for a stable atom, electrons circulate surrounding the atom at different energy level. The base magnetic field of the atom is neutralised by the magnetic field generated by the moving/orbiting electrons. Hence, it is difficult to detect/measure the magnetic field of an atom.

In term of magnetic dipole moment, the spinning atom possesses an upward magnetic dipole moment. The orbiting electrons generate a downward magnetic dipole moment which neutralizes the upward magnetic dipole moment of the atom. Therefore, some atoms are neutral in magnetic dipole when both upward and downward dipole moments are equal. Figure below illustrates the balance of magnetic dipole moment of an atom with two electrons circulating around it.


The atom itself possesses an upward magnetic dipole moment, μa. The orbiting electrons produce magnetic dipole moment which is at the opposite direction, μe. The cancellation of upward and downward magnetic dipole moment makes the atom neutral in term of magnetism.

More descriptions and detail derivations are presented in this link:
http://www.greatians.com/physics/mass/atom%20model.htm

Molecule is the combination of few atoms. Due to the quantum mechanics of atoms, molecule are able to form in various shapes, such as water molecule possesses 'V' shape. The quantum mechanics of water molecule is illustrated below.


The combination of hydrogen and oxygen atoms produces the principle orbital number of 3. This causes the angle between two hydrogen atoms to be 105 degree.

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Offline Vern

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What particle carries magnetic field?
« Reply #42 on: 07/06/2009 15:07:16 »
Quote from: kongkokhaw
Atom itself is not a stuffed or solid 'object', it is the magnetic and electric (M&E) fields in a different form that make up the volumetric size. the electric field corresponds to the charge of the particles. while the magnetic field corresponds to the quantized energy level of the particles. Figure below illustrates the structure of an atom.
You present interesting notions. It would be good if you could identify those places, if they exist, where you depart from established theory so that we could ponder it better and decide which version seems to satisfy the most observations.

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Offline yor_on

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Re: What particle carries magnetic field?
« Reply #43 on: 17/10/2012 09:11:36 »
Sorry Mark, should have responded to your description a looong time ago :) But yes, that's exactly how I understands it too, nowadays that is :) Magnetic fields are observer dependent. But then you have a permanent magnet, how do I describe that as observer dependent? And have a look at this one. Einstein Straightened Out.
=

And that title gotta be a little joke :)
On geometry and the way Einstein got his Relativity framework together
« Last Edit: 17/10/2012 09:21:09 by yor_on »
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Offline madus

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Re: What particle carries magnetic field?
« Reply #44 on: 22/10/2012 09:12:23 »
Base on my understanding, particles are made of electric and magnetic field. This can be observed from the processes of pair production, annihilation, radioactive decay, collision of particles and etc. From these processes, matter and wave are interchangable. The ingredients of wave is electric and magnetic fields, hence, the ingredients of matters/particles are also the electric and magnetic fields.


What a coincidence. Kong, are you still around? I'd like to ask you a few questions about double-slit experiment.

 

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Offline madus

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Re: What particle carries magnetic field?
« Reply #45 on: 22/10/2012 09:45:08 »
Hi All!

I have tried to find out about the nature of the particles that carries magnetic field (not EM filed), but have not managed it. Can someone of you there explain what particles carries magnetic field if it is carried by particles?

Thanks for all inputs!
manjit

All basic particles, like electron, positron, proton, neutron... including photons. It's usually called "magnetic moment", which is magnetic DIPOLE moment due to spin.




To be very specific, you could say a particle "carries" electric field or charge, but magnetic field is rather an effect of (charge) motion, not really an intrinsic property of a particle itself, like electric charge/field seem to be.

So, beside dipole magnetic moment due to spin there is also magnetic moment/field being formed around charge due to its spatial motion, and is directly proportional to velocity of the charge. This is known as Lorenz force or Ampere force. Note that if velocity is zero this magnetic field does not exist, which is why I say it's an "effect" rather than actual property of a particle itself.




There is this equation called Biot–Savart law that works equally well in electromagnetics just as in aerodynamics, so amazingly this photo bellow will too describes how this magnetic field due to moving charge "looks" like:
 


...it just happens to work the same way, go figure.
« Last Edit: 22/10/2012 10:05:33 by madus »

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Offline yor_on

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Re: What particle carries magnetic field?
« Reply #46 on: 22/10/2012 10:24:57 »
If the idea of a permanent magnet being domains that are lined up in a same direction is correct, then it must be correct to assume that 'electrons' move too. That is if a magnetic field is 'observer dependent', which it indeed seems to be. You need those 'electrons' to change position in a orderly pattern in a permanent magnet to create that magnetic field being at rest with it.
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