[Don_1]

There is a great deal of emphasis on electric cars here, i.e. personal transport. If you really want to do something which will be of some benefit to the environment, forget electric cars, in fact, forget ALL forms of personal transport which need more than your own body power. Then tackle the wider problem of the transport of provisions.

An electric 42 ton truck??? I don't think so.

[Pumblechook]

I gather the Tesla Roadster has been tested by Clarkson on Top Gear and the prog is on tonight on BBC2.  Sounds like Tesla objected to the findings.  For one thing there is some argument about the charging time of 16 hours versus 3.5 hours.   I would have thought that 3.5 hours is simply not possible with British domestic (or any other in the World) supplies and 6 hours would be more like it.

[teragram]

The original question was -
"anyone have any fresh ideas that might advance the electric car concept?"
I think I am the only one to have attempted to answer this so far. Most of the replies seem to be merely concerned with stating the problems of electric cars. Any mention of electric cars seems to frighten a lot of people. Why don’t we remember the problems with conventional cars?

"One issue with batteries and fuel cells is that they store an enormous amount of energy and if they're damaged there's a risk of all that energy being released at once in an explosion."

Developments on Li-ion batteries seem likely to address this problem. Also, is being in a fireball any better than being in an explosion?

If every experimenter or engineer just accepts all the problems stated, and didn't bother doing any development, then alternatives will never appear. This applies to every other technological endeavour. I remember the appearance of transistors spawning the argument "transistors will never replace valves". We now have phenomenally powerful computers in almost every home.
Incidentally, this is not an invitation to open the debate here on whether valve audio amplifiers are better than transistor ones.

There is no science fiction here, we just have to change our lifestiles.

[techmind]

"So do we then just give up?"

How do you solve all the problems then?..  Wave a magic wand.

Well, forgive us for being negative, but the thread title appears to be
"What is holding back electric car technology?"
so that could be expected to direct the tone of many of the replies.


Fundamentally, moving an individual around in a steel cage/contraption with 5 to 10x the mass of the occupant is going to be inefficient because you have all that deadweight.

Although it doesn't come with creature-comforts, the bicycle is a far lower-energy method of getting around. It's a shame that inconsiderate car drivers often make cycling on our roads an unpleasant and hazardous activity.

Mass-transit systems (buses, coaches, trains) are far more fuel-efficient than private cars too - but have their drawbacks in terms of limited routes, limited frequency of service, sharing space with strangers etc etc. On the other hand, if more people used them then the logistics of frequency and routes becomes helped by economies of scale.

Electric cars could probably be 2-3x (thereabouts) more energy-efficient than petrol cars - but far greater savings could be achieved by considering wider options for transport.

Another possibility is if we all owned much smaller 1-2 person cars as local runabouts (electric or otherwise), and adopted the mindset of hiring larger cars just on the rare occasions when we actually need to cover longer distances or carry bigger loads.


Electric cars would have some advantages, but shouldn't be viewed as a magic bullet. The solution to excessive energy use is not purely more technology, but technology alongside some changed lifestyle expectations.

[Pumblechook]

I think Top Gear got it about right. A great car but only for as long as the batteries have juice.  The programme will be viewable on BBC i-player.

Electric car manufactrurers and fans do themselves no favours by quoting silly figures that tests and calculations reveal to be bogus.


I don't see how electric vehicles can be more energy efficient than petrol ones.  After all the batteries are only a means of storing energy from some other source and there are losses all the way from the power station to the battery.  Maybe less than half of the mechanical energy produced by the turbines reaches the driving wheels of a vehicle.

You could say electric vehicle users are (deluded) polluting, parasitic tax dodgers if you wanted to be unkind but there is some truth in that.

[lyner]

It's a shame that inconsiderate car drivers often make cycling on our roads an unpleasant and hazardous activity.

As they don't pay road tax, do cyclists deserve any consideration? (I'm not advocating knocking them over on purpose.)
And how many cyclists 'consider' the pedestrians they terrorise on the pavements?

[teragram]

Thanks, Pumbechook, for pointing out that “Top Gear” had planned a feature on the Tesla, I would have missed it otherwise.
I was AMAZED that the car covered 55 miles on one charge when being driven like a racing car. This better than I anticipated. A more useful trial would have included a test of range under more normal driving conditions. After all, how many of us drive at speeds comparable to the lap time of a Porsche something-or-other. Pretty good with a motor the size of a melon, though? The statement that it requires 16 hours for a charge seems a bit suspect. I think the Tesla has a 26KW/hr battery, which if it requires 30KW/hr to charge (a guess) would need 10 hours to charge from a 13Amp outlet. Quite a load for a 13Amp circuit, but most houses have 30 or 40Amp circuits for cookers, showers, etc., why not a car charging circuit? With regard to the time required to charge, when I was working, my car stood in the garage 12 hours each day, and the office car park for 9 hours. Even with a range of 50miles, there would be plenty of time for charging.
The later “Top Gear” feature offered the Honda Clarity hydrogen powered car as an alternative. Thankfully this car uses a fuel cell and electric drive, gaining three times the energy from the hydrogen than would an I.C. engine. I understand however that producing hydrogen uses five the power required to charge a battery. This, with the need for new infrastructures, seems to put it into the “impractical” category.

[teragram]

I meant of course "five times the power" Moral, proof read before you publish!!

[Pumblechook]

The Tesla batteries are 53 kWh (I have also seen 56 kWh) so given the efficiency of a charger and the charging process 16 hours from a 13 amp socket sounds to be  the right area or somewhat optimistic....20 hours more like and if you had a higher power supply but still domestic with a 40 Amp breaker 6 hours would the fastest practical 'fast' charge if you kept all other high power devices off (no taking a shower unless it is gas powered).  I also thought that 55 miles wasn't bad when driving at high speed. Do the sums..53 kWh and 185 kW max motors..   For Tesla to turn round and say that Top Gear fiddled it and 250 miles is the correct range.. what planet are Tesla living on??  Sounds like the spokeslady from Tesla has believed her own company hype. 

[LeeE]

"One issue with batteries and fuel cells is that they store an enormous amount of energy and if they're damaged there's a risk of all that energy being released at once in an explosion."

Developments on Li-ion batteries seem likely to address this problem. Also, is being in a fireball any better than being in an explosion?

The developments in Li-ion batteries are mostly about making them more efficient and not safer and most of these developments focus on making the battery element smaller/thinner, so that more elements can be used for the same size and weight.  If anything, this would tend to make them less robust and more susceptible to manufacturing flaws.  I don't know if you were aware of it but there have been a couple of very large scale Li-ion battery recalls due to the batteries spontaneously bursting in to flame in laptop computers - google "sony battery recall".

A fireball is quite a lot less destructive than an explosion.

Re the Top Gear Tesla test, it seems that at no point did either of the two Teslas they had run out of power during testing, and neither did any major faults (requiring more than a fuse-change) occur.

[Pumblechook]

It seems that they hadn't run out of power?  Do the sums.  Two of us are impressed that they even got 55 miles.   

Sounds like Tesla is in trouble.  The boss has quit.  I never saw the point in such as car unless it was to flog some to rich kids and then wind up the company.   

[paul.fr]

Thanks, Pumbechook, for pointing out that “Top Gear” had planned a feature on the Tesla, I would have missed it otherwise.

Why would anyone listen to Clarkeson when it come to this subject? He is not known for his eco-friendly views, to say the least.

[Pumblechook]

The Tesla aint exactly eco is it?

[DoctorBeaver]

What if you need to go out in an emergency while your car is charging? "Sorry, dear, I can't take you to the hospital to have that nail removed from your head for another 2 hours 17 minutes. Take an aspirin".

[Pumblechook]

Limited range would suit very few people.  Although many might do a short predictable journey day after day there are times when they will want to go on to somewhere else or make a diversion for a romantic asignation or buy a tap washer.

[LeeE]

It seems that they hadn't run out of power?  Do the sums.  Two of us are impressed that they even got 55 miles

Just reporting what the Beeb has admitted

http://www.reghardware.co.uk/2008/12/22/bbc_top_gear_tesla/

[teragram]

Apologies for understating the battery capacity. Also,hydrogen production requires about 4 types the energy a battery requires, not 5 times (all approximate) as I previously stated.
The charging problems are all defeatable, no knew technology required.
The nail in the wife’s head does not need to wait until the battery is fully charged, even if the battery is completely dead, partial charge is useful. Be more kind to your wives!
Romantic assignations (I wish) need not be at long distance. Anyway, behave!!
Battery cars will get more eco if renewable generation continues to increase.
I remain impressed by the range of 55 miles at racing car speed. As I said, we need to know the range at more civilised speeds. I am not impressed by a flashy sport car though, only by the possibilities it shows for more useful electrical vehicles
HAPPY CHRISTMAS AND NEW YEAR TO EVERYONE!

[Pumblechook]

Some of us are accused of being negative but there are serious snags which can't be dismissed easily. You can't assume that some amazing solutions are around the corner.  You can't get around the fact that a high capacity battery needs a beefy electrical supply and charging in minutes really is science fiction.  Even if a suitable battery chemistry existed you are taking about a 200 kW supply for a 20 minute charge (still quite a long time compared to filling a tank with petrol).. say 250 volts at 800 Amps..  The charging plug would be enormous and weigh many kg and the cable would like be as thick as your leg. 

I still think one of the best battery technolgies we have is the 150 year old lead-acid.  The big snag is their bulk and weight.  Li-ion is not a good technology.   

Why did a fuse blow?  Fuses blow when there is a fault. It is what they are there for.

I would like to see a respected organisation or a Uni to do some proper tests on the Tesla.

[Doug Saga]

get ready to go electric:

Car sales tumble to worst fall since 1991
Car sales during October showed their worst annual decline for seventeen years, falling by just below by a quarter in the worst set of figures seen since the last recession.

During October, cars sales fell 23 per cent to 128,352, reflecting the sharply deteriorating economy and the worst of several months of accelerating declines where sales of luxury cars, such as the Bentley, as well as people carriers have been hit particularly hard.

Sales of new cars fell 21 per cent in September, despite the introduction of new '58' number plates, and by 19 per cent in August. According to the Society of Motor Manufacturers and Traders, which releases the data, sales last fell by more than a quarter back in June 1991.

The weak figures were underlined by dismal results from the world's largest carmaker, Japan's Toyota, which said that this year's operating profit would be 63 per cent lower than expected due to an "unprecedented" sales collapse in Europe, the US as well as faltering trade in China and India.

the race is on !

"Nissan's own electric car development team is aiming to design lithium batteries with three times the charge capacity of existing models, meaning that an electric vehicle could travel up to 500km on a full charge. "

newbielink:http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/industry_sectors/technology/article5091986.ece [nonactive]

Japanese industry set for a lithium rush as carmakers turn focus to green motoringLeo Lewis, Asia Business Correspondent
Japan's largest automotive and electronics giants are poised to embark on a worldwide scramble for lithium - the material that could be required in bulk if the roads of the future are to be filled with electric cars.

Companies as diverse as Toyota and Panasonic could add mining or lithium-extraction operations to their portfolio of businesses as the technology that powers laptops and iPods is upgraded to drive the Chevrolet Volt, the Mitsubishi Miev and a dozen other electric cars that are on their drawing-boards.

The lithium-ion battery has recently emerged as a potentially critical stop-gap green technology as the motor industry gradually weans itself off the internal combustion engine. Although substantial advances have been made in the production of a commercially viable fuel cell vehicle, infrastructure issues - such as the lack of any network of hydrogen fuelling stations - mean it could be some decades before they enter the mainstream. Cars that can be plugged in and charged overnight, meanwhile, represent a more immediate development focus for the carmakers.

The impending rush to secure stable lithium supplies comes as large swaths of Japanese industry are suffering a crisis of confidence about their pipeline of raw materials. As a country that relies entirely on imports to feed its factories, companies now talk of building “upstream supply” in the form of investment in mines.

Related Links
Panasonic wary of rivals as it prepares Sanyo bid
Panasonic poised to launch bid for Sanyo
Panasonic, which stands to become the world's largest producer of lithium batteries if it completes its planned purchase of Sanyo, its local Osaka rival, has amassed a $10 billion (£6.2 billion) cash reserve for overseas acquisition.

A company spokesman said that while it had no concrete plans at the moment, purchasing an interest in a lithium production facility could “be thought of as one option”.

In addition to the emerging pursuit of lithium, Japanese trading companies have begun an energetic land-grab for other types of mines: bauxite, platinum and nickel are prime targets because of the huge demand from Japanese industry.

Stung by soaring prices earlier this year, motor companies have even begun to look at securing their own supplies of raw materials for steel production. Toyota Trading - an affiliate of the carmaker - has already bought part of a coking coal mine and admitted that further mine investments, including lithium, were a possibility.

Research by The Times suggests that at least ten leading Japanese companies have begun investigating ways of securing lithium supplies, or are mulling corporate alliances that would guarantee a degree of price stability. Some are considering outright purchases of existing lithium production facilities in Chile and Argentina, while others are looking at investing in planned lithium plants in China.

Global leaders in lithium-ion batteries, such as Sanyo and NEC Tokin, have unveiled improvements to the technology that have persuaded big carmakers, such as Nissan, to invest heavily in the development of next-generation electric cars.

Nissan's own electric car development team is aiming to design lithium batteries with three times the charge capacity of existing models, meaning that an electric vehicle could travel up to 500km on a full charge.


Subject: electric cars

The type of technological enabler that will lead to the overwhelming adoption of electric cars:

Battery is actually an ultracapacitor. A full charge should give the capacitor sufficient energy to drive a small car 300 miles (480 km). Although the technology should allow very fast charging (e.g., 5 minutes), standard household wiring is not capable of delivering the power required for this, so charging times this short would probably require purpose-built high capacity dispensing stations.[5]

newbielink:http://www.cleantech.com/news/3174/eestors-weir-speaks-about-ultracapacitor-milestone [nonactive]

newbielink:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EEStor [nonactive]

EEStor's Weir on ultracapacitor milestone
July 30, 2008 - Exclusive By David Ehrlich, Cleantech Group

EEStor claims third party verification
EEStor ultracapacitors to run LightEVs cars
Zenn gearing up for EEStor-powered car
Lockheed Martin to use EEStor's ultracapacitors
Zenn electric cars cleared for Canada
The stealthy energy storage developer's product is real and will meet specs, claimed passionate CEO Richard Weir in an exclusive interview.
Cedar Park, Texas-based ultracapacitor developer EEStor could be a step closer to shipping its first product, announcing the certification of production milestones and the enhancement of its chemical purification processes.

The secretive startup has made bold claims for the performance of its upcoming solid-state electrical energy storage unit, yet the company has some significant partners backing its claims, including Toronto-based electric vehicle maker Zenn Motor (TSX: ZNN), Silicon Valley's Kleiner Perkins Caufield & Byers, and Bethesda, Md.-based Lockheed Martin (NYSE: LMT), the world's No. 1 defense contractor.

Richard Weir, president and CEO of EEStor, told the Cleantech Group his company's certification announcement is significant.

"It certainly allows us to meet present specifications and major advances in energy storage in the future," he said. "It'll meet the voltage, we say that, it'll meet the polarization, saturation, we say that."

EEStor is developing an ultracapacitor which it said will be longer lasting, lighter, more powerful, and more environmentally friendly than current battery technologies.

Texas Research International, acting as an independent laboratory, certified the level of crystallization in EEStor's composition modified barium titanate, or CMBT, powders at an average of 99.92 percent. EEStor said this puts it on the path toward meeting its goals for energy storage.

The company expects its ceramic ultracapacitor, which it said uses no hazardous materials, to have a charging time of 3 to 6 minutes, with a discharge rate of only 0.02 percent over 30 days. EEStor said that compares to more than 3 hours to charge a lithium-ion battery and a discharge rate of 1 percent over 30 days.

"It's all certified," said Weir. "No bullshit in this."

EEStor's milestone comes on the same day that San Diego-based competitor Maxwell Technologies (Nasdaq: MXWL) announced a supply deal (see Golden Dragon Bus to use Maxwell ultracapacitors).

Maxwell shipped its Boostcap ultracapacitors to Xiamen, China's Golden Dragon Bus for use in diesel-electric hybrid buses in Hangzhou.

EEStor said the enhancement of its chemical purification processes is one of its most critical technical milestones, but EEStor has yet to release the results of permittivity testing, which will trigger the next milestone payment from Zenn. The automaker said permittivity is a measurement of how much energy can be stored in a material.

In a statement today, Zenn CEO Ian Clifford said the news "bodes well for EEStor's completion of its third party verified permittivity milestone and is a very strong affirmation of our investment in and the rapid progress of our business plan."

Zenn currently makes low-speed electric vehicles, shipping its first production vehicles in October 2006, but plans to roll out a highway-speed vehicle powered by EEStor's technology in the fall of 2009 (see Zenn gearing up for EEStor-powered car).

Zenn has already made three milestone payments to EEStor totaling $1.3 million. Another $700,000 is payable after the permittivity testing, with a final $500,000 due when EEStor ships its ultracapacitors.

Separately, Zenn also holds 3.8 percent of EEStor after investing $2.5 million in the ultracapacitor company in April 2007. After EEStor's permittivity milestone, Zenn has the option to boost its investment to a range of 6.2 to 10.5 percent.

In 2005, Kleiner Perkins invested a reported $3 million in EEStor. The percentage of Kleiner's stake has not been revealed.

"We were invested in to put in a high-volume production line. I think this says we've made some very major strides to completing that," said Weir.

"The plant is going in right now in Cedar Park as we speak. And then we'll, of course, we'll always expand from there."

Lockheed Martin announced its contract with EEStor in January, saying that it plans use the ultracapacitors for military and homeland security applications (see Lockheed Martin to use EEStor's ultracapacitors). The defense contractor did not release the financial terms of the deal.

Weir wouldn't disclose if EEStor is working with any other companies, saying only, "Once contracts are signed, I'm sure we'll have a news release on them."

EEStor's ultracapacitors were previously set to come out in 2007, but Zenn has since said that EEStor has committed to commercialization in 2008, with EEStor's first production line to be used to supply Zenn.

When asked for an update on that schedule, Weir said, "Good things should happen in a reasonable period of time."

[Doug Saga]

newbielink:http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/ce77ab20-9097-11dd-8abb-0000779fd18c,dwp_uuid=1cba192e-8e15-11dd-8089-0000779fd18c.html [nonactive]

Battery developers race to fuel electric cars
By Bernard Simon

Published: October 2 2008 17:22 | Last updated: October 2 2008 17:22

The race to build the first mass-market electric car has unleashed an equally, and perhaps even more, intense contest to produce the battery pack that will power it.

McKinsey, the consultancy, estimates that venture-capital investment in battery-related companies soared from $153m in 2003 to $1.15bn last year.

EDITOR’S CHOICE
Indian car sales suffer biggest fall in eight years - Dec-10TMD’s German groups file for insolvency - Dec-08US carmakers set for slender lifeline - Dec-05November new cars in UK decline 37% - Dec-04German car sales plunge sharply - Dec-02In depth: Detroit in distress - Nov-30“The market is very crowded in terms of new chemistries and cell developers,” says Karina Morley, director of control and electronics at Ricardo, a consultancy that is setting up a battery system development centre in Michigan.

On the other hand, Charles Gassenheimer, chief executive of Ener1, a New York-based battery developer, takes the view that “the pie is going to be fairly big and there is room for a lot of players”.

The most closely watched race for now is between two groups led by South Korea’s LG Chem and A123Systems of Boston to supply the lithium-ion pack for General Motors’ Chevrolet Volt plug-in car.

GM has said it will announce its preferred supplier by the end of the year. Word in the marketplace is that the Koreans are the frontrunners.

Meanwhile, numerous other alliances are taking shape. Bosch, the big German parts supplier, and South Korea’s Samsung recently announced a joint venture to produce batteries by 2011.

Volkswagen has teamed up with Sanyo, the biggest maker of lithium-ion batteries used in laptop computers and mobile phones.

Sanyo, which already supplies the batteries used in Ford and Honda hybrid models, aims to produce 10m cells a month by 2015, enough to power about 1.7m vehicles.

Mr Gassenheimer says Ener1 is talking to more than two dozen potential customers. Ener1 has a contract with Norway’s Think Global, which has promised to have its Think City electric car on the road by the end of this year.

Ricardo says it has signed up five US customers and others in Europe for its battery development services.

Batteries have always been the main question mark in the viability of electric cars. Concerns include weight, capacity, speed of recharging and safety, especially heat.

Most hybrids currently on the road, notably Toyota’s Prius, use nickel-hydride batteries. But the focus is now on lithium-ion packs, which are more compact and have the potential for a much greater range.

Even Toyota has formed a joint venture with Matsushita Electric to produce lithium-ion batteries for future models. “I don’t think there’s any question that Toyota will be major player in lithium-ion”, Mr Gassenheimer says. Nissan has a partnership with NEC.

Uncertainties still abound. Noting carmakers’ typical pledge that their electric-vehicle batteries will last for at least a decade, Ms Morley asks: “How do you know it’s going to last 10 years if you don’t have 10 years to test it?”

More encouragingly, a consensus appears to have emerged that electricity is the most promising alternative to the internal-combustion engine and that battery technology will eventually be up to the task.

Referring to GM’s Volt, Rick Wagoner, the carmaker’s chief executive, said recently that “for close to a year now, we’ve run prototype battery packs through test after test and our confidence in their ability to deliver the required power, range, safety, reliability and quality has grown with every lap around our proving ground”.

Ms Morley is confident that in five years “we’ll be comfortable with the technology in general”.

Instead of worrying about whether batteries can deliver the goods, she predicts, the industry will be focused on improvements – higher energy storage, quicker charging, longer life, lower cost and lighter weight.