What is holding back electric car technology?

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Offline preacher

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What is holding back electric car technology?
« Reply #200 on: 26/01/2011 12:30:54 »
 
CLIFORD THE ISSUE IS THAT THE PHYSICS WE KNOW HAS UNDERGONE ALOT OF REVOLUTIONS THAT MAY NOT APPEAR IN BOOKS AND JOURNAL FOR ALONG TIME,UNLIKE THE ENERGY HIDDEN IN THE RADIOACTIVE MINERALS, WHAT AM TALKING ABOUT IS NOT RADIOACTIVE IN NATURE BUT HAS A POTENTIAL OF RELEASING ENERGY  ENORMOUS TO CARRY 20 TIMES IT OWN WEIGHT BY USING THE 24 VOLTS 200 AMPS FROM THE BATTERY AS A STARTER. ITS UNFORTUNATE THAT I CAN RELEASE THE RESULTS OF MY WORK NOW FOR SAFETY REASONS AND SECURITY PURPOSES. JUST NEED SOMETIME TO DO THAT, AM USING GRAVITY AND magnetism !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
« Last Edit: 26/01/2011 13:05:14 by preacher »

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Offline preacher

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What is holding back electric car technology?
« Reply #201 on: 26/01/2011 12:34:52 »
the problems as regard to charging the batteries and the weight, my electriccar just need two 200 amps battery to start the car, once the car has started it first 20 revolution the arrangement picks it from there. and once the car is on motion the battery will be serving as a bridge while charging.
200 Ah battery? Are you claiming power or peak energy drawn? Also Amps means nothing without Volts.
Charging from where? (please don't say the rotating wheels...)
A little more explanation is needed.
Many electric motors are "Capacitor Start" to give a little extra boost at low revs.

Ah is a little different...  Amp Hours, or how long the battery will last.
Most car batteries can put out on the order of 1000 Amps at 12.6V (or maybe with a voltage drop) for a brief period of time. 

Your issues, of course, are both the acceleration curve, and the maintenance power.  I've ridden bicycles enough to know that I can't coast forever on the flats  [:-\]



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Offline peppercorn

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What is holding back electric car technology?
« Reply #202 on: 26/01/2011 12:42:18 »
CLIFORD THE ISSUE IS THAT THE PHYSICS WE KNOW HAS UNDERGONE ALOT OF REVOLUTIONS THAT MAY NOT APPEAR IN BOOKS AND JOURNAL FOR ALONG TIME,UNLIKE THE ENERGY HIDDEN IN THE RADIOACTIVE MINERALS, WHAT AM TALKING ABOUT IS NOT
a) There's no need to shout.
b) Are you having trouble with posting? (what's the about post for?)
c) You seem to be being very cryptic (if not hard to fathom) - do you want to discuss your 'idea' or skirt round it?

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Offline preacher

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What is holding back electric car technology?
« Reply #203 on: 26/01/2011 13:13:18 »
CLIFORD THE ISSUE IS THAT THE PHYSICS WE KNOW HAS UNDERGONE ALOT OF REVOLUTIONS THAT MAY NOT APPEAR IN BOOKS AND JOURNAL FOR ALONG TIME,UNLIKE THE ENERGY HIDDEN IN THE RADIOACTIVE MINERALS, WHAT AM TALKING ABOUT IS NOT
a) There's no need to shout.
b) Are you having trouble with posting? (what's the about post for?)
c) You seem to be being very cryptic (if not hard to fathom) - do you want to discuss your 'idea' or skirt round it?

PEPPERCORN THE ISSUE IS THAT THE PHYSICS WE KNOW HAS UNDERGONE ALOT OF REVOLUTIONS THAT MAY NOT APPEAR IN BOOKS AND JOURNAL FOR ALONG TIME,UNLIKE THE ENERGY HIDDEN IN THE RADIOACTIVE MINERALS, WHAT AM TALKING ABOUT IS NOT RADIOACTIVE IN NATURE BUT HAS A POTENTIAL OF RELEASING ENERGY  ENORMOUS TO CARRY 20 TIMES IT OWN WEIGHT BY USING THE 24 VOLTS 200 AMPS FROM THE BATTERY AS A STARTER. ITS UNFORTUNATE THAT I CAN RELEASE THE RESULTS OF MY WORK NOW FOR SAFETY REASONS AND SECURITY PURPOSES. JUST NEED SOMETIME TO DO THAT, AM USING GRAVITY AND magnetism !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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Offline peppercorn

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What is holding back electric car technology?
« Reply #204 on: 26/01/2011 13:27:16 »
PEPPERCORN THE ISSUE IS THAT THE PHYSICS WE KNOW HAS UNDERGONE ALOT OF REVOLUTIONS THAT MAY NOT APPEAR IN BOOKS AND JOURNAL FOR ALONG TIME,UNLIKE THE ENERGY HIDDEN IN THE RADIOACTIVE MINERALS, WHAT AM TALKING ABOUT IS NOT RADIOACTIVE IN NATURE BUT HAS A POTENTIAL OF RELEASING ENERGY  ENORMOUS TO CARRY 20 TIMES IT OWN WEIGHT BY USING THE 24 VOLTS 200 AMPS FROM THE BATTERY AS A STARTER. ITS UNFORTUNATE THAT I CAN RELEASE THE RESULTS OF MY WORK NOW FOR SAFETY REASONS AND SECURITY PURPOSES. JUST NEED SOMETIME TO DO THAT, AM USING GRAVITY AND magnetism !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Can you please stop typing in UPPERCASE !
If you are suggesting 'using gravity and magnetism' to power a vehicle (continuously, not just rolling down a hill!) then we will need to continue this discussion on the New Theories board.
This is because what you are describing lays outside the realm of accepted science - It's not just that the ideas that you allude to are not published yet, they are very much likely to never be published in mainstream scientific journals.

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Offline Geezer

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« Reply #205 on: 27/01/2011 02:26:06 »
Can you please stop typing in UPPERCASE !

Well, after all, his handle is
"PREACHER"
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Offline Geezer

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Offline peppercorn

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What is holding back electric car technology?
« Reply #207 on: 27/01/2011 12:23:29 »
Now we're cooking with gas! (er, well, diesel actually)

http://autos.yahoo.com/articles/autos_content_landing_pages/1698/volkswagen-xl1-concept-promises-260-mpg/

Wow!
260mpg (0.9 per 100km) must be in ideal driving conditions, surely?

Actually I'm surprised it takes as much as 9hp to maintain 62mph. With a CD of 0.18 I thought it would somewhat less.

BTW, being as this is an BEV thread, does this count as a hybrid car (sounds like it has a completely independent electric drivetrain - rear wheels?)
« Last Edit: 27/01/2011 12:25:01 by peppercorn »

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Offline Appersonjackson

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What is holding back electric car technology?
« Reply #208 on: 02/02/2011 00:22:39 »
On the electric car,a split battery system,using wheels as generators to charge up a two system battery, advance short cycle, hydrogen cell. comming soon .

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Offline Pumblechook

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What is holding back electric car technology?
« Reply #209 on: 05/02/2011 17:53:18 »
The US department of energy estimates that EVs cost between twice and three times per mile (or km) as petrol vehicles.

These fanciful mpg figures take only the cost of the elec (and off peak elec at that) into account.  Range is exagerated.  The vehicles tend to be expensive due to expensive batteries which have to be replaced every few years. 

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Offline Geezer

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« Reply #210 on: 05/02/2011 19:40:30 »
The US department of energy estimates that EVs cost between twice and three times per mile (or km) as petrol vehicles.
 

Is that the total lifetime cost per mile? Maybe you can point us at the source reference? Thanks!
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Offline Pumblechook

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« Reply #211 on: 06/02/2011 10:51:23 »
I cant find a source at the moment.  The US Department of Energy's Pacific National Lab has done various studies.  Most websites are pro-EVs and gloss over the full picture. I will keep digging but I think I saw it quoted on a Wiki page.

It is the overall cost of the vehicle, batteries, battery replacement ..everything divided by the miles travelled over the life of the vehicle compared to the same for a petrol vehicle.  It will be based on US fuel prices. 

The figures will depend on how long you keep the car and the miles per you year do.  I looked at the electric version of my own car and I calculated that the cost per mile would be much higher than the petrol version. 

Somebody reckons that the G-Wizz  gets an equivalent of ONLY 6.5 mpg due to the very high cost of the battery which needs to be replaced every few years.  BUT he is a proponent of hydrogen. 

Fans of certain technologies will paint those in the best possible light and the alternatives in the worst.   

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Offline peppercorn

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« Reply #212 on: 06/02/2011 13:37:37 »
I looked at the electric version of my own car and I calculated that the cost per mile would be much higher than the petrol version.

That sound interesting. Can you provide a copy of your calculations?

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Offline Pumblechook

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« Reply #213 on: 06/02/2011 18:09:25 »
It is a bit tricky as my car is no longer available in electric form.  It is a Citroen Berlingo (petrol) and cost less than £8000.  I doubt you could get an EV for that.  I think the Bee One is £12,000 for a limited range, small, slow car.  Straight away it is costing you £4000 more than a spacious almost van like car with a 400 mile range per tank full.  £4000 buys a lot of petrol even at UK prices.  Given that the battery version would have cost you a lot in new batteries after 3 - 5 years the battery model is a complete waste of time. 

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Offline teragram

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« Reply #214 on: 07/02/2011 17:21:06 »
It is a bit tricky as my car is no longer available in electric form.  It is a Citroen Berlingo (petrol) and cost less than £8000.  I doubt you could get an EV for that.  I think the Bee One is £12,000 for a limited range, small, slow car.  Straight away it is costing you £4000 more than a spacious almost van like car with a 400 mile range per tank full.  £4000 buys a lot of petrol even at UK prices.  Given that the battery version would have cost you a lot in new batteries after 3 - 5 years the battery model is a complete waste of time. 

VCR’s, CD’s, CD players, CD recorders, DVD players/ recorders, home computers, etc., all were out of reach of less well off people when they first appeared.

If I.C. powered cars were only built in the small numbers that E.V.s are being built now, their costs would be far higher.
i.e. the cost of production falls drastically with the numbers produced. Therefore as more E.V.s are made, their cost will reduce.
 

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Offline Geezer

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« Reply #215 on: 07/02/2011 19:22:04 »
It is a bit tricky as my car is no longer available in electric form.  It is a Citroen Berlingo (petrol) and cost less than £8000.  I doubt you could get an EV for that.  I think the Bee One is £12,000 for a limited range, small, slow car.  Straight away it is costing you £4000 more than a spacious almost van like car with a 400 mile range per tank full.  £4000 buys a lot of petrol even at UK prices.  Given that the battery version would have cost you a lot in new batteries after 3 - 5 years the battery model is a complete waste of time. 

VCR’s, CD’s, CD players, CD recorders, DVD players/ recorders, home computers, etc., all were out of reach of less well off people when they first appeared.

If I.C. powered cars were only built in the small numbers that E.V.s are being built now, their costs would be far higher.
i.e. the cost of production falls drastically with the numbers produced. Therefore as more E.V.s are made, their cost will reduce.
 


The reason that EVs are so expensive is because of the cost of the batteries. Unfortunately, those same batteries are already manufactured in high volume for portable electronic equipment, so it's unlikely that we'll see a significant economy of scale associated with manufacturing EVs in high volume.
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Offline teragram

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« Reply #216 on: 09/02/2011 16:41:10 »

"The reason that EVs are so expensive is because of the cost of the batteries. Unfortunately, those same batteries are already manufactured in high volume for portable electronic equipment, so it's unlikely that we'll see a significant economy of scale associated with manufacturing EVs in high volume."



So the battery powered car has already reached the limit of it’s development? Hardly seems fair, when the conventional car developed over a period of 120 years.

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Offline Geezer

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« Reply #217 on: 09/02/2011 19:20:05 »
So the battery powered car has already reached the limit of it’s development? Hardly seems fair, when the conventional car developed over a period of 120 years.


Who said it had to be fair?  [:D]

My point is that the current battery technology is already fairly mature.

BTW - so is all the other stuff. EVs borrow heavily from existing automobile design and manufacturing as well as electric and electronic systems that have been developed over very long periods too. I realize this may not be what people want to hear, but there really isn't much that's new in EVs at all.

It's really only battery technology that's holding back EVs. A significant step forward in battery technology will make the most difference.
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Offline Pumblechook

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« Reply #218 on: 09/02/2011 21:48:46 »
Batteries seem to have gone up steeply in price in recent years... lead-acid anyway.  I was using small sealed ones at £5 a few years ago.  They are now £13 each.  Cars batts which were £40 a few years ago are now £70+. 

Probably the same old points over again but fans of EVs live in a dream world..... 

I would say at least a 10 fold improvement in battery capacity is needed before EVs stand any chance at all.  I gather sales of EVs have slumped in the UK.   Charging could only realistically be done on an industrial scale IF we build more power stations and it will always be a slow process so that means battery swapping.
« Last Edit: 09/02/2011 21:54:48 by Pumblechook »

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Offline Geezer

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« Reply #219 on: 09/02/2011 22:14:45 »
10x would be fantastic, but even 2x could make a significant difference. Charging infrastructure is a bit of an issue, but that could be addressed gradually as EVs became more popular.

However, unless something dramatic happens on the battery front, much of this is likely to remain academic.
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Offline Pumblechook

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« Reply #220 on: 10/02/2011 17:44:21 »
Even 10x wouldn't be a significant brekthrough.  Petrol is least 60 times (kWh/kg) lighter than the lightest type of battery we have now.

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Offline Geezer

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« Reply #221 on: 10/02/2011 17:54:30 »
Even 10x wouldn't be a significant brekthrough.  Petrol is least 60 times (kWh/kg) lighter than the lightest type of battery we have now.

I think it would. There are other weight savings that factor into the calculations, but it's not simply about weight. Cost has a lot to do with it as well.
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Offline teragram

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« Reply #222 on: 10/02/2011 18:33:29 »
Current battery technology is fairly mature, but we shouldn’t confuse maturity of technology with economy of scale. Li-ion are made in their millions, but for phones and computers, not for cars. The others elements of the technology (inverters, controllers) have indeed been around for years. In my old job I dealt with three phase controllers for battery powered warehouse vehicles, these were expensive. When they are routinely made in auto industry quantities their prices will drop further.

“Probably the same old points over again but fans of EVs live in a dream world..…”

Might I suggest that BV deniers also live in a dream world, one where oil will never run out, and environmental destruction on an epic scale is not a problem?
 


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Offline Geezer

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« Reply #223 on: 11/02/2011 02:14:14 »
Current battery technology is fairly mature, but we shouldn’t confuse maturity of technology with economy of scale. Li-ion are made in their millions, but for phones and computers, not for cars. The others elements of the technology (inverters, controllers) have indeed been around for years. In my old job I dealt with three phase controllers for battery powered warehouse vehicles, these were expensive. When they are routinely made in auto industry quantities their prices will drop further.


If they were not already in mass production, I would agree with you, but they are, so the economy of scale argument does not work, or at least, it is unlikely to result in a dramatic cost reduction. It's also quite possible that the price will go up if the volume increases significantly. The World supply of lithium is controlled by a handful of countries!

Don't get me wrong. I'd like to see EVs displace a lot of IC powered vehicles too. We just need to be realistic about where the technology stands at the moment.

EDIT: According to Wikipedia;
 
"There are widespread hopes of using lithium ion batteries in electric vehicles, but one study concluded that "realistically achievable lithium carbonate production will be sufficient for only a small fraction of future PHEV and EV global market requirements", that "demand from the portable electronics sector will absorb much of the planned production increases in the next decade", and that "mass production of lithium carbonate is not environmentally sound, it will cause irreparable ecological damage to ecosystems that should be protected and that LiIon propulsion is incompatible with the notion of the 'Green Car'".[61]"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium#Production
« Last Edit: 11/02/2011 05:59:02 by Geezer »
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Offline Pumblechook

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« Reply #224 on: 11/02/2011 19:28:15 »
The EV deniers do tend to have engineering/scientific backgrounds.  We know full well that oil might run out one day.  We need to address power generation and how that can be done without oil and gas.  We could have a battery breakthrough tomorrow but unless we can answer the generation question we will have to go back to horses.

It is strange that nuclear was a complete no-no with most greenies but many are now saying it may be the only way to proceed.

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Offline teragram

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« Reply #225 on: 14/02/2011 18:39:32 »
Fortunately many ev fans also tend to have engineering backgrounds. You are absolutely right that we have to address power generation (and also storage I think). That does not mean that we have to wait until those problems are sorted until we start pushing forward the alternatives. (I know, I’ve left an opening for a pun there)

Regarding the pollution caused by mining and processing of lithium, does this even approach the effects of Torre Canyon, Exxon Valdez, Gulf of Mexico etc., (all accidents) and e.g. Canadian tar sands operations (deliberate).

Does the fact that it is now economically viable to pursue the latter to satisfy the need for oil suggest that we really are approaching “peak oil”.
 

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Offline Geezer

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« Reply #226 on: 14/02/2011 19:03:18 »
Fortunately many ev fans also tend to have engineering backgrounds. You are absolutely right that we have to address power generation (and also storage I think). That does not mean that we have to wait until those problems are sorted until we start pushing forward the alternatives. (I know, I’ve left an opening for a pun there)

Regarding the pollution caused by mining and processing of lithium, does this even approach the effects of Torre Canyon, Exxon Valdez, Gulf of Mexico etc., (all accidents) and e.g. Canadian tar sands operations (deliberate).

Does the fact that it is now economically viable to pursue the latter to satisfy the need for oil suggest that we really are approaching “peak oil”.
 

Ah, but you're equating EVs with a reduction the consumption of fossil fuel. That does not follow. Not only that, but if we have lots of power that comes from non-fossil sources, we can synthesis fuel from CO2 and use it to power vehicles with IC engines.
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Offline teragram

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« Reply #227 on: 15/02/2011 17:40:50 »
Ah, but you're equating EVs with a reduction the consumption of fossil fuel. That does not follow. Not only that, but if we have lots of power that comes from non-fossil sources, we can synthesis fuel from CO2 and use it to power vehicles with IC engines.

I was in this case referring to the devastation caused by the production of oil (especially from tar sands) and accidents in the oil industry, which will have increasingly bad effects as oil is extracted in ever more difficult circumstances. The CO2 argument I think will be won by the battery powered vehicle without argument when power generation becomes greener, and it is slowly improving. My home electricity is (I’m told sourced 50% from fossil and 50% from wind approximately).
You make me really depressed by saying we can continue to use I.C. engines into the distant future!!!!!

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Offline kornbredrsqar

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« Reply #228 on: 15/02/2011 21:11:25 »
How about solar panels on the roof and deck lids ,breaking systems, and shock absorbers that charge one set of batteries while another set powers the car. But what is holding the hole thing up is loss of revenue, when the powers that be figure out how to collect the same dollers per mile driven in an electric as the combustion engine cars then they will be everywhere!!!!!!!

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Offline Geezer

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« Reply #229 on: 16/02/2011 01:16:41 »
Ah, but you're equating EVs with a reduction the consumption of fossil fuel. That does not follow. Not only that, but if we have lots of power that comes from non-fossil sources, we can synthesis fuel from CO2 and use it to power vehicles with IC engines.

I was in this case referring to the devastation caused by the production of oil (especially from tar sands) and accidents in the oil industry, which will have increasingly bad effects as oil is extracted in ever more difficult circumstances. The CO2 argument I think will be won by the battery powered vehicle without argument when power generation becomes greener, and it is slowly improving. My home electricity is (I’m told sourced 50% from fossil and 50% from wind approximately).
You make me really depressed by saying we can continue to use I.C. engines into the distant future!!!!!


Be not depressed. I think you may be missing the point. Just because we all run about in EVs it does not mean we are not using fossil oil and (just as bad), coal to run our vehicles. If the electricity was produced by burning fossil oil or coal, we have not solved any global problem, although we might have solved a local pollution problem by exporting our pollution to somewhere else.

Likewise, just because we run cars with IC engines, it does not mean we have to be running them on oil that came out of the ground. If the energy source that produced the fuel was non-fossil (solar, wind, nuclear etc.) we are solving a global problem.

Despite all the hype, EVs do not equate to reduced CO2 production and reduced fossil oil consumption. They could, but you can get the same result with IC engines.
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Offline Pumblechook

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« Reply #230 on: 17/02/2011 00:47:31 »
Do you know how long the car would need to be in sunlight to charge a large battery?

I have just looked at the Nissan Leaf and it is a whopping £29,000.  A charger will cost a few hundred quid. 

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Offline teragram

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« Reply #231 on: 23/02/2011 16:45:09 »
From Geezer:-
“we can synthesis fuel from CO2 and use it to power vehicles with IC engines.”
“Despite all the hype, EVs do not equate to reduced CO2 production and reduced fossil oil consumption. They could, but you can get the same result with IC engines.” (???)

The fuel efficiency of I.C. powered cars is said to be around 22% to 27%, and I have seen worse figures than these stated.

The possibility of converting CO2 back into fuel on an industrial scale is in the distant future I think. Anyway the process would not begin to reduce CO2 in the atmosphere, and we need to do that now. Yes, that means addressing the problem of power generation, as well as that of transport.


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Offline wolfekeeper

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« Reply #232 on: 23/02/2011 17:09:36 »
The US department of energy estimates that EVs cost between twice and three times per mile (or km) as petrol vehicles.

These fanciful mpg figures take only the cost of the elec (and off peak elec at that) into account.  Range is exagerated.  The vehicles tend to be expensive due to expensive batteries which have to be replaced every few years. 
So far as I know, in the UK this is wrong.

If a battery costs £4000, at current prices this is less than 4000 litres of petrol.

4000 litres of petrol is less than 900 gallons. At 30 mpg that's about 25000 miles; that's about 3 years of normal travel. But EV battery lifes are 5-10 years.

In comparison, actually charging the battery costs practically nothing, about a pound or two per charge (gets you about 60-100 miles or so).

The equation may be somewhat different in America, petrol is a lot cheaper over there, but the cost of petrol is increasing there too; the cost of electricity is going up more slowly because there are more sources for it.
« Last Edit: 23/02/2011 17:17:07 by wolfekeeper »

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Offline wolfekeeper

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« Reply #233 on: 23/02/2011 17:15:58 »
It is a bit tricky as my car is no longer available in electric form.  It is a Citroen Berlingo (petrol) and cost less than £8000.  I doubt you could get an EV for that.  I think the Bee One is £12,000 for a limited range, small, slow car.  Straight away it is costing you £4000 more than a spacious almost van like car with a 400 mile range per tank full.  £4000 buys a lot of petrol even at UK prices.  Given that the battery version would have cost you a lot in new batteries after 3 - 5 years the battery model is a complete waste of time. 
The thing is that EV cars are expensive because they aren't made very much, not because they're inherently expensive to build. The batteries are the only moderately exotic technology but they aren't expensive enough to push the cost of the vehicle up to overwhelm the lower running costs (and actually maintenance is a *small* fraction of that of normal cars, and electric cars last very well.)

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Offline Geezer

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« Reply #234 on: 23/02/2011 21:10:24 »
The possibility of converting CO2 back into fuel on an industrial scale is in the distant future I think. Anyway the process would not begin to reduce CO2 in the atmosphere, and we need to do that now. Yes, that means addressing the problem of power generation, as well as that of transport.



Correct, it would not reduce CO2, but it would not increase it either, and that's the really important point.

Synthesising gasoline may not be here today, but neither, despite everyone closing their eyes and wishing very hard that it is true, are batteries that will make EVs really practical. And, speaking of efficiency, have you any idea how much these things actually weigh?

I suppose the next thing we'll hear is that the US government has a secret facility in Nevada that has developed a battery with ten times the energy capacity of current technology.
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Offline Geezer

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« Reply #235 on: 23/02/2011 21:19:06 »
The batteries are the only moderately exotic technology but they aren't expensive enough to push the cost of the vehicle up to overwhelm the lower running costs (and actually maintenance is a *small* fraction of that of normal cars, and electric cars last very well.)

Oh yes? Just wait until you have to replace your first battery! It's an enormous part of the cost of the car. And, it will last about as long as the one in your laptop. I don't know about you, but my expericence with laptop batteries is that they are pretty much useless after four years.

BTW - where are you getting your information from?
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Offline kornbredrsqar

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« Reply #236 on: 24/02/2011 18:44:45 »
hello, it's me again Margret, har har, well I believe allot of people are missing the point by looking at this as a competition between all these ideas instead of looking at the big picture and combining forces for the greater good. if we stop dismissing technologies because they alone will not solve our problem and start implementing the most efficient ideas at every stage, then we could sea huge change in energy consumption. for instance if electric cars had more efficient motors and better batteries coupled with a on board recharging system that is carbon neutral there would not be much left to complain about.

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Offline Geezer

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« Reply #237 on: 24/02/2011 19:20:54 »
hello, it's me again Margret, har har, well I believe allot of people are missing the point by looking at this as a competition between all these ideas instead of looking at the big picture and combining forces for the greater good. if we stop dismissing technologies because they alone will not solve our problem and start implementing the most efficient ideas at every stage, then we could sea huge change in energy consumption. for instance if electric cars had more efficient motors and better batteries coupled with a on board recharging system that is carbon neutral there would not be much left to complain about.

er, the motors are already very efficient. BTW, do you think the automobile manufacturers don't know all this stuff already? They do. The problem is that, no matter how creative the engineers get, they still have to deal with the practical realities of the technologies they have to work with.

There's not a lot of point in designing a vehicle based on technologies that don't actually exist.

Contrary to popular misconception, there is no big conspiracy to hold back electric vehicles. Actually, they've been around for a very long time already, and the only reason they have never really taken off is because they don't yet do a very good job of meeting the requirements.
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Offline horizon

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« Reply #238 on: 25/02/2011 14:37:12 »
Appologies if you've already talked about this but this is a new japanese water powered car (my friend emailed me this, so i dont think its a hoax!)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X5fT5hZ8pcg

what do make of it?
obviously there are issues with the amount of co2's used in the process of actually getting and supplying the water itself... but its all good progress.

(technically they could use sea water so not to drain drinking/household water supplies..
also its perfect for boats too i'd imagine)
« Last Edit: 25/02/2011 14:44:29 by horizon »

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Offline imatfaal

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« Reply #239 on: 25/02/2011 16:40:34 »
Sounds like absolute rubbish to me - was this broadcast just over 11 months ago on 1st April 2010.  To separate hydrogen from water requires energy - it does not release energy 
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Offline imatfaal

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« Reply #240 on: 25/02/2011 16:43:26 »
And with a little googling

Quote
Genepax Water Energy System
In June 2008, Japanese company Genepax unveiled a car which it claims runs on only water and air,[24] and many news outlets dubbed the vehicle a "water-fuel car".[25] The company says it "cannot [reveal] the core part of this invention,” yet,[26] but it has disclosed that the system uses an onboard energy generator (a "membrane electrode assembly") to extract the hydrogen using a "mechanism which is similar to the method in which hydrogen is produced by a reaction of metal hydride and water".[27] The hydrogen is then used to generate energy to run the car. This has led to speculation that the metal hydride is consumed in the process and is the ultimate source of the car's energy, making the car a hydride-fuelled "hydrogen on demand" vehicle, rather than water-fuelled as claimed.[28][29][30] On the company's website the energy source is explained only with the words "Chemical reaction".[31] The science and technology magazine Popular Mechanics has described Genepax's claims as "Rubbish."[32] The vehicle that Genepax demonstrated to the press in 2008 was a REVAi electric car, manufactured in India and sold in the UK as the G-Wiz.
In early 2009, Genepax announced they were closing their website, citing large development costs[33].


in this house we obey the laws of thermodynamics.   Oooh Donuts, I like Donuts
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Offline horizon

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« Reply #241 on: 25/02/2011 18:07:09 »
oh well... i guess we're doomed after all... i'll go and hang my head in shame...

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Offline Geezer

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« Reply #242 on: 25/02/2011 19:36:46 »
oh well... i guess we're doomed after all... i'll go and hang my head in shame...

No need for that, but it's always good to remember that if it looks too good to be true, more than likely it is too good to be true.
There ain'ta no sanity clause, and there ain'ta no centrifugal force æther.

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Offline teragram

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« Reply #243 on: 26/02/2011 18:30:37 »
Qoutes from Geezer:-
"Correct, it would not reduce CO2, but it would not increase it either, and that's the really important point.

Synthesising gasoline may not be here today, but neither, despite everyone closing their eyes and wishing very hard that it is true, are batteries that will make EVs really practical. And, speaking of efficiency, have you any idea how much these things actually weigh?

Despite all the hype, EVs do not equate to reduced CO2 production and reduced fossil oil consumption. They could, but you can get the same result with IC engines."
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It is more important to reduce CO2 than to stabilise it.

If fuel is to be synthesised, from whatever source, it should be fuel for fuel cells, (moderately good efficiency) not to be squandered in wasteful I.C. engines.

Weight of batteries?:-
Lithium ion - 50kWh, approx 315kg. However the Tesla 53kWh battery system (container, ventilation, control) is 450kg.
Lithium ion sulphide, 50kWh approx 170kg.
Incidentally the Tesla even with that battery weight, still manages a specific power consumption of around 220Watthour/mile (Wiki., quoting the U.S. Environmental protection Agency)

When you build a battery powered car, you don’t just add a battery to an existing car, you get rid of  the clutch, gearbox, radiator, exhaust system. What might these weigh in an average car?

« Last Edit: 26/02/2011 18:35:10 by teragram »

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Offline Geezer

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« Reply #244 on: 27/02/2011 08:05:01 »
Teragram,

EVs are very interesting machines, and if we can get sufficient energy density into the batteries, they will become more widely adopted. However, EVs are no more likely to reverse any effects that CO2 has on the climate than rearranging the deck chairs would have on the Titanic.

The real problem is the source of the energy that we use. Suppliers of EVs can smugly say that they are not the problem, knowing full well that all they have done is to move the problem somewhere else.
There ain'ta no sanity clause, and there ain'ta no centrifugal force æther.

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« Reply #245 on: 28/02/2011 08:10:37 »
I hope this does not turn out to be nonsense.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110227/ap_on_bi_ge/us_growing_fuel
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Offline teragram

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« Reply #246 on: 04/03/2011 18:00:16 »
If battery powered cars are far fetched, what about this?


http://blog.cafefoundation.org/?p=1422

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Offline Geezer

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« Reply #247 on: 04/03/2011 18:49:06 »
If battery powered cars are far fetched, what about this?


http://blog.cafefoundation.org/?p=1422


Looks like they still have a bit of work to do. I await the first test flight in anticipation  [;D].

Seriously, if we can get batteries with better energy density, an electric aircraft is quite practical. Likewise with cars.
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Offline Pumblechook

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« Reply #248 on: 05/03/2011 10:07:30 »
A much higher energy density battery would be step one.  There is still the question of where all the extra electricity is coming from and the slow charge will always be a problem.

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Offline LmarcusH

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« Reply #249 on: 25/03/2011 07:59:45 »
Nicholi Tesla  made it work a long time ago. read up on tesla, youll see