[teragram]

Thanks, Doug Saga, for
a) supplying answers to the original question “fresh ideas to advance the concept of the electric car”, and
b) providing all that info, which will take me some time to follow up in detail. It is encouraging that large PROFIT MAKING organisations seem to be moving forward.
In my opinion the future is the electric car (probably battery powered) or bike and public transport, the other option, presented by Techmind. Answers like “battery cars can’t achieve the range of petrol ones”
assume that we will have a choice, in the near future.

[Doug Saga]

newbielink:http://www.reuters.com/article/technologyNews/idUSTRE4BH42G20081218 [nonactive]

U.S. government lab, 14 firms team up on lithium battery
Thu Dec 18, 2008 10:08am EST By Andrew Stern

CHICAGO (Reuters) - Aiming to mass-produce a lithium battery for vehicles, 14 U.S. companies with expertise in batteries and advanced materials have formed an alliance with a government laboratory, the lab said on Thursday.

The alliance, which includes battery industry giants such as 3M Co and Johnson Controls-Saft, intends to secure $1 billion to $2 billion in U.S. government funding over the next five years to build a manufacturing facility with an "open foundry" for the participants to pursue the goal of perfecting lithium-ion batteries for cars.

"It's a huge deal for the nation, and for the lab," said Mark Peters, who is in charge of transportation and battery research at Argonne National Laboratory near Chicago, which will advise the group.

China, Japan and South Korea are the current leaders in lithium battery research, he said in a telephone interview.

"A small, fragmented (U.S.) battery industry will not long survive in the face of determined Asian competition," Ralph Brodd, a consultant to battery manufacturers, said in a statement released by Argonne.

"(Other) countries understand that he who makes the batteries will one day make the cars," he said.

The best-selling hybrid vehicles such as Toyota Motor Corp's Prius use a nickel metal hydride battery. Lithium batteries are widely considered to be the next technological leap forward for electric-powered vehicles, as they can be recharged in a wall socket like a computer battery.

The National Alliance for Advanced Transportation Battery Cell Manufacture was modeled after SEMATECH, the successful public-private venture created in the late 1980s to restore U.S. prominence in computer semiconductor technology.

Besides Johnson Controls-Saft Advanced Power Solutions, a joint venture of Johnson Controls Inc and France's Saft Groupe SA, and 3M Co, the founding members of the battery alliance are ActaCell, All Cell Technologies, Altair Nanotechnologies Inc, Eagle Picher Industries Inc, EnerSys, Envia Systems, FMC Corp, MicroSun Technologies, Mobius Power, SiLyte, Superior Graphite, and Townsend Advanced Energy.

In addition to an advisory role for Argonne, U.S. truck and auto makers will be asked to join the alliance's advisory board, said James Greenberger, an attorney who was instrumental in assembling the group.

[Pumblechook]

Some people still seem to think a 5 min home charge will be possible in the future

[teragram]

I don’t think anyone believes that a 5min charge period is a possibility in the foreseeable future, just that it will be easy on  a day to day basis to use some of the (long periods of) time that vehicles spend idle to recharge them.

[Pumblechook]

Quite a few of people with no scientific or engineering knowldege seem to think Tesla and others are working on 5 min home charge right now.  I get shouted down when it tell them it is just not possible. 

[Doug Saga]

newbielink:http://gas2.org/2008/12/22/new-patent-reveals-details-of-eestors-ultracapacitor-technology/ [nonactive]

New Patent Reveals Details of EEStor’s Ultracapacitor Technology
 
Written by Nick Chambers
 
Published on December 22nd, 200828 CommentsPosted in Electric Cars (EVs), Ultracapacitors
A newly-granted US patent (PDF) for the upcoming ultracapacitor technology from secretive Texas-based EEStor contains a ton of detailed information about their near-mythical Electrical Energy Storage Unit (EESU), which has the potential to revolutionize transportation and our energy infrastructure.

Apparently one EESU weighs 281 pounds, has a volume of 2.63 cubic feet, can be fully charged in 3-6 minutes, is completely unaffected by temperature, will not explode or catch fire in an accident, and provides 52 kWh of electricity (nearly the same amount of energy the Tesla Roadster battery can hold, which reportedly takes the Roadster about 240 miles).

The speed at which an EESU can be charged is fully dependent on the type of power source used to charge it. Ultracapacitors, in general, can accept a near-instantaneous charge, so, if you want to take advantage of the super fast recharge time, you’ll need to get a heavy-duty circuit installed. For instance, if you are trying to charge it from a regular US 110V/15A outlet, it could take you up to 30 hours to get a full charge.

Continuing on with the Tesla Roadster comparison (why the hell not?), we find that one Tesla lithium-ion battery pack (PDF), containing 6800 small batteries, weighs almost 1000 pounds and takes up about 4-5 cubic feet of space. The Tesla Battery can be charged in about 3.5 hours, again given a high enough voltage and amperage. Given this comparison, you can clearly see how the EESU, if it ever comes to market, would truly be a game-changer.

I spent a couple hours last night combing through the detailed EEStor patent (PDF) looking for other clues and made some minor discoveries of my own. The EESU consists of thousands of tiny “components,” each consisting of 10 “elements.” In turn, each element has 100 alternating screen-printed dielectric layers of barium-titanate ceramic powder (94%) mixed with PET plastic (4%) and screen-printed layers of an aluminum electrode.

EEstor says the volume of each dielectric layer is 0.0005651 cubic centimeters and the volume of each electrode layer is 0.00005806 cubic centimeters. Given that there are a thousand of each layer in each component (10 elements X 100 layers), the total volume of each component would be: 0.5651 cubic centimeters + 0.05806 cubic centimeters = 0.62316 cubic centimeters.

To get to a capacity of 52 kWh of electricity, EEStor calculates that each EESU would need about 31,351 of these components. Therefore, the total volume of an EESU’s charge holding parts with a capacity of 52 kWh, according to my calculations, would be: 31,351 X 0.62316 cubic centimeters = 19,537 cubic centimeters, or roughly 0.7 cubic feet.

What’s odd about this is that, according to the patent, the volume of a 52 kWh EESU plus its “box, connectors and associated hardware” is 2.63 cubic feet. So, almost 2 cubic feet of the EESU is devoted to the “box, connectors and associated hardware”? I find this hard to believe. Maybe somebody else should check my calculations (look at column 5, Table 1, and columns 9 and 10 of the patent for the details).

If you were to combine two of these EESUs in one vehicle, it would still weigh roughly half as much as a Tesla battery pack, but take the car twice as far (almost 500 miles). Additionally, because of the nature of ultracapacitors, it would still only take 3-6 minutes to charge both packs (again, only if you have a powerful enough outlet).

I’ve still got my fingers crossed that EEStor is really making progress on the EESU. The fact that they’re backed by ZENN Motors and Lockheed Martin lends some credence to their claims, but I’ll believe it when I see it.

[lyner]

A kilowatt hour is a kilowatt hour.
If you want to charge in 1% of the time the vehicle is running then you need (at least) one hundred times the power input compared with running power. What would be the point of supplying houses with the sort of peak power needed for a rapid recharge (copper costs money, you know) when you could replace batteries in seconds and charge them at leisure?

I really advise you optimists to steer clear of invitations from Nigerian businessmen to help them with their million pound funds transfer. If you believe what you seem to believe about battery charging then you may just believe those gentlemen too.

[Pumblechook]

Simon Wood's, tech director. Lotus Cars (Tesla's partner), report starts off as 'Electric Cars are the Future' but then lists  what he calls 'considerable technical challenges' which is amother way of saying unsolvable problems, particularly fast home charging.   He thinks for EVa to succeed they need at least  100 kWh battery packs which at the moment would be impossibly heavy and a fast charge supply would be over 2 MW which is 150 times a typical household supply.  Whether batteries, capacitors or motors stretching knicker elastic fast home charging will NEVER be possible.

[lyner]

Of course, it's not a trivial problem for the 'depot' either. The effective mean input power which a daily delivery of petrol to a garage represents is very considerable and that would be what we're talking about. Someone could actually work it out but it must be the equivalent to several coal trucks being delivered to the power station per day. (Not a green comparison, I know).
The recharge time would have to be the average time between visiting vehicles over the day - five minutes, say?

[Pumblechook]

Any fast charging yes, but particularly home charging.    Where are we going to get all the elec from if EVs become widespread?    I wonder with the high voltages and/or high currents (maybe hundreds or thousands of amps) Health and Safety (capitals) wouldn't allow it.  You would need batteries capable of fast charging without being damaged or exploding.  There are Youtubes on-line showing Li-ion batteries exploding. 

[techmind]

It's a shame that inconsiderate car drivers often make cycling on our roads an unpleasant and hazardous activity.

As they don't pay road tax, do cyclists deserve any consideration? (I'm not advocating knocking them over on purpose.)

Is the fact that you give consideration to other vehicles got anything to do with the fact that they do pay road tax?

The alleged purpose of road tax is to fund the building and maintaining of roads; since a bicycle is so much smaller and lighter than a car, the wear and tear it causes is utterly negligible. Clearly the administrative costs would outstrip the revenue if cyclists were charged proportionately.
Many cyclists do also own a car, and pay road tax on that - and all adult cyclists pay income tax and national insurance etc.
The non-paying of road tax is a spurious argument used against cyclists.

And how many cyclists 'consider' the pedestrians they terrorise on the pavements?

But you are right - cyclists are stuck between a rock and a hard place; neither drivers nor pedestrians believe they should be on 'their turf'. Cycles travel substantially faster than peds, but frustratingly slower than cars - no wonder they're hated.

[lyner]

The reason that most motorists criticise cyclists is that there are some very BAD road users amongst the cycling fraternity. How many of them obey the road signs, stop at red lights and position themselves properly? They actually get in the way.
When I cycle, I behave as if in a car and do my best not to piss off other road users. I am in a minority.
The regulations which aim to prevent total novices and total idiots from driving cars may not be 100% effective but there is nothing of the sort to protect us from badly behaved cyclists. That's why all cyclists suffer from general resentment. Unfair, but based on experience. It's an unfortunate 'us and them' situation but with reason.

Non payment of road tax by cyclists is fair enough but why not demand that all road-using cyclists must have third party insurance? Cyclists who cause accidents and consequential damage would be priced off the road because their premiums would get higher and higher.

[BenV]

When I cycle, I behave as if in a car and do my best not to piss off other road users. I am in a minority.

The majority of cyclists here in Cambridge do too - I think you're probably not in the minority, just more likely to notice those inconsiderate cyclists.

I'm certainly a considerate cyclist, but have seen some who are not - same goes for driving.  I suppose the difference is that a dangerous cyclist is far less likely to kill someone than a dangerous driver.

[lyner]

Cyclists have the same problem as youths in hoodies.

There are a lot of idiots in Brighton, however, who do not have cars but do have gallons of youthful testosterone which provides them with a personal force field which they are convinced will protect them from all harm. Never be surprised to meet one coming towards you up a one way street. if you appear cross, he will just be cross back at you!!

[teragram]

We seem to have departed somewhat from the general thread.

If electric cars become common:-

Yes, the electricity grid will need to be expanded to cope with the demand. It has always expanded to cope with demand. The grid was not built at the start of the last century with the capability it has today. If all car companies decided tomorrow to start building production quantities of electric cars, it would be some years before they all started to hit the streets, and even then many people would continue to support the internal combustion engine sacred cow for old times sake.
In other words, grid capability is a problem, but not insurmountable.

Yes, the battery car cannot hope to match the range of an old fashioned car, until technology improves further. But most car journeys are well within the range of even traditional battery vehicles.
The charging problem is always stated as the time required to charge from zero to maximum charge. The energy lost from a battery on the short journeys which most are, will be replaceable comfortably during the time the vehicle is idle, even without vast changes to electricity supplies.  
Incidentally, the solution of changing batteries instead of recharging on-board is not a new idea, but is a good one (maybe to address the long range trip when necessary).
In other words, range is a problem, but not insurmountable.

Yes, there are problems with the risk of Li-ion batteries exploding, although not I think with ultra-capacitors. We hear of computers bursting into flame. But that was some time ago. Is it still going on? Batteries such as that in the Tesla are made from a large number of small devices. Maybe the explosion problem can be contained to a small area of the total. Also, it is not true that Li-ion battery development is only concerned with increasing capacity. Efforts are being made to solve the explosion problem, in fact at the moment, to the detriment of capacity. Given that the battery car becomes common, other battery technologies will be developed which are even more suitable.
Yes, the explosion risk of Li-ion batteries may be a problem, but it is not insurmountable.

[Doug Saga]

newbielink:http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-1161274/Scientists-develop-mobile-phone-battery-charged-just-10-seconds.html [nonactive]

Scientists develop mobile phone battery that can be charged in just 10 seconds

By David Derbyshire
Last updated at 7:31 PM on 11th March 2009

Thing of the past? The new mobile phone batteries will be recharged in just 10 seconds

A revolutionary mobile phone battery that recharges in 10 seconds instead of several hours has been created by scientists.

The new device charges 100 times as fast as a conventional battery and could also be used in phones, laptops, iPods and digital cameras within just two or three years, they say.

The same technology could even allow an electric car to be charged up in the same time that it takes to fill a conventional car with petrol - removing one of the biggest obstacles to green, clean motoring.

The quick-charge battery is the brainchild of engineers at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology.

The MIT team say their invention uses materials already available to battery manufacturers and would be simple to mass produce.

The invention is based on conventional lithium ion rechargeable batteries found in most cameras, phones and portable computers.

Lithium ion batteries are used in portable gadgets because they  store a large amount of energy in a small space.

However, they are also relatively slow at recharging - which can be a nuisance for anyone who forgets to charge up their phone overnight.

Dr Gerbrand Cedar, who devised the new battery, said: 'Electric car batteries have a lot of energy so you can drive at 55mph for a long time, but the power is low. You can't accelerate quickly.'

Dr Cedar and colleagues have now found a way of speeding up this process, the science journal Nature reports.

Conventional lithium ion batteries contain two electrodes - one made from lithium and one from carbon - submerged in a liquid or paste called an electrolyte.

When a battery is being charged up, ions - or positively charged atoms - flow from the lithium electrode to the carbon one. When a battery is discharging, the ions flow the other way.

The new battery could also work with rechargeable cars

Charging up or discharging a battery is slow because it takes time to 'detach' the ions from one electrode and absorb them into the other.

The researchers took a conventional electrode made from lithium iron phosphate and altered its surface structure so that ions were released and absorbed 100 times more quickly than normal.

A prototype made using the new technique could be fully charged or discharged in just 10 to 20 seconds. A similar sized ordinary battery takes six minutes to charge.

Unlike other battery materials, the new material does not degrade when repeatedly charged and recharged. That could lead to faster batteries lasting between two or three years, they said.

'The ability to charge and discharge batteries in a matter of seconds rather than hours may open up new technological applications and induce lifestyle changes,' Dr Ceder said.

The technology could also usher in a new generation of smaller, lighter batteries that allow phones and handheld batteries to be the size of credit cards.

Although the invention will be popular with owners of electronic portable gadgets - who will no longer need to remember to keep them charged up overnight - it could also usher in a new era of electric cars.

Bigger batteries for plug in electric cars could charge in just five minutes - compared with about eight hours for existing batteries.

Owners of electric cars would be free to drive long distances, safe in the knowledge that they could top up their battery in a few minutes at a service station - just like the owner of a petrol or diesel car.

[Pumblechook]

Have you worked out the power required to fast charge a high capacity traction battery?..  The volts and amps required.

[lyner]

We've been here before. It's the power supply that the filling station would need that's the problem.
If you need to charge a 2000Ah battery in 1/100 of an hour (i.e. less than a minute) you would need to charge at 200,000A. That's going to need around 1,000A of mains power for each vehicle being charged. Then there's all the heat that it would produce during charging.
A petrol pump gets the energy in with much less fuss.

[Pumblechook]

How big would a 200,000 Amp plug be?

 

[wolfekeeper]

We've been here before. It's the power supply that the filling station would need that's the problem.
If you need to charge a 2000Ah battery in 1/100 of an hour (i.e. less than a minute) you would need to charge at 200,000A. That's going to need around 1,000A of mains power for each vehicle being charged.

Not necessarily. There's a difference between peak power and average power. Having a battery in the filling station would considerably reduce the peak. You only have to supply the charging station at average power, not peak power; and being able to charge faster doesn't necessarily change this much.

But you'd need a heck of a lot of new power stations to supply all the energy for electric cars.

On the upside though, having a lot of electric cars plugged into the mains can completely flatten out the grid's load, and you end up with somewhat cheaper electricity, since they can supply peak power from electricity they absorbed at base load prices.