[Geezer]

Uh-oh!

http://autos.yahoo.com/news/is-chevy-volt-running-out-of-juice-.html

[CliffordK]

Not surprising.
I think it started running low on juice a couple of years ago, after the release was delayed by half a decade, and the price started shooting through the roof.

$41,000?
Although there is a $7500 government rebate, bringing it down to $33,500

And, I think the 35 mile range was disappointing for many people.  Plus 40 MPG drops it to the low end for many hybrids and fuel efficient vehicles.

Toyota hits around 45 mpg, with some people getting nearly 50 mpg, and has nearly a decade of experience on GM. 

The Toyota plug-in sounds disappointing with a 13 mile range.  Perhaps this will push some people who were waiting for the Toyota plug-in back towards the GM.  But, the Toyota plug-in may come in over $10,000 less than the GM car, and still get an additional 5 mpg for those long highway drives.

[Geezer]

When it comes to EVs, I don't think the vehicle manufacturer has too much to do with it. They are all hamstrung by the same limitations in current(!) battery technology.

[peppercorn]

So, how about...
'Cambridge crude' — a black, gooey substance that can power a highly efficient new type of flow battery

?

[Geezer]

Wow! That looks really interesting. Nice link PC.

[Geezer]

On a more cheerful note:

"It's Time To Kill The Electric Car, Drive A Stake Through Its Heart And Burn The Corpse"

http://seekingalpha.com/article/289828-it-s-time-to-kill-the-electric-car-drive-a-stake-through-its-heart-and-burn-the-corpse?source=yahoo

[peppercorn]

Oh, ever the optimist eh Geezer!

Well, handily I've got the solution right here!
(Read it quick though as it's gone in 7 days...[quick, where are the conspiracy theorists?])


A new generation of multitalented materials could herald the end of the battery as we know it

[Geezer]

Oh, ever the optimist eh Geezer!

Well, handily I've got the solution right here!
(Read it quick though as it's gone in 7 days...[quick, where are the conspiracy theorists?])


A new generation of multitalented materials could herald the end of the battery as we know it

Er, well, wake me up in ten or so years and we'll see how they are coming along.

[Matthew L]

You should all read Thomas Pynchon's novel Against the Day. Evil forces in that book suppress Tesla's invention of free energy, as the plutocrats wish to profit.  I just think that currently it is still difficult to build a good working car that runs purely on electricity. 

[peppercorn]

You should all read Thomas Pynchon's novel Against the Day. Evil forces in that book suppress Tesla's invention of free energy, as the plutocrats wish to profit.

Just to make clarify (and here I hope the word 'novel', ie. fictional, should be a clue) - In reality, no one has ever suppressed any of Tesla's work, and certainly no 'evil forces'.
If contributors want to discuss some of Tesla's more outlandish ideas (I think from mostly later on in his life) - ie. those that rightly didn't make it into mainstream science, the -New Theories- board is the place to do it. ... Thanks!

[peppercorn]

On a more cheerful note:
"It's Time To Kill The Electric Car, Drive A Stake Through Its Heart And Burn The Corpse"

This guy talks a lot of sense in his article and the table comparing the battery capacity of full BEV (Leaf with 24kWh capacity) versus hybrids (old Prius with only 1.5kWh) does make a clear point about how impractical it would be to supply enough rare metals for the Li-ion batteries worldwide.

Although, not truly on-topic I would like to mention a third-way solution (of sorts):
According to Toyota spokesman John Hanson, the Prius PHEV only uses about 3.8 kWh of the battery's 5.2-kWh capacity (for battery longevity)

Around 5kWh (or potentially less), although still probably far beyond what can be mined economically, does seem to suggest that something like the Volt (16kWh capacity) is heavy on resources considering the relatively low efficiency gains.

[Geezer]

He also makes a great point about Moore's law and how there is no similar law that applies to battery technology. That's not to say there will not be some amazing breakthrough next week, but there is no historical trend that implies there will.

[qazibasit]

real reason is no speed and holding that much volts and current would cost too much, u cant store AC current so u have to store it in DC and batteries cost too much with a less life, just see ur laptops battery .

[peppercorn]

I find it an odd idea that the masses would believe Moore's law applies to anything other than computing power.  Although, I suppose that the fact of the matter is that as processors have become so embedded in many of our more traditional technologies that there has been a sort of knock-on effect (Moore's law by proxy if you prefer), where the ability of this hidden intelligence to wring performance, efficiency and other positive attributes out of our machines has given the impression of a continuous ever-quickening rate of improvement - independent of the actual cause.

The ability to model our designs using powerful computers (especially in the last decade), has probably helped extenuate the myth of these improvements are part of an unbounded trend across all technologies.

[Geezer]

Ee by gum, theyl be trooble down't mill if this catches on.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-14852073

[CliffordK]

Ee by gum, theyl be trooble down't mill if this catches on.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-14852073

I thought Lithium Ion Polymer batteries have been around for quite some time.

Is this just reinventing the wheel?

http://polymerprojecttopics.blogspot.com/2010/09/lithium-polymer-battery.html
http://www.buchmann.ca/article6-page1.asp
http://www.pmbl.co.uk/lithium_polymer.aspx

It sounds like in many cases, the dry cells are not as efficient as liquid cells.

[CliffordK]

I stopped by the local Biodiesel/Ethanol station today, and to my surprise, a Tesla Roadster was "filling up" there.  A bigger surprise that the license plates indicated that the car had traveled over 300 miles to get to the station.

There were a couple of guys sitting at the counter that looked like they might belong to the car, so I thought I'd talk to them a bit.

While many gas stations give you a free cup of coffee with a fillup... 
Apparently it is common for the EV's to give a free fillup with a cup of coffee!

The guy called I-5 "Tesla Highway", with charging stations located about every 100 miles or so from Canada through the USA down to Mexico.  I think he said that it takes about an hour of charging per hundred miles or so.  Sometimes they would pull into an RV park, plug into the "facilities" for the night and set up a tent.  It must be an interesting way to slowly tour around, having a cup of coffee every couple of hours and talking to the locals. 

Apparently the car could take something like 60A, 220V full power for charging, but not all stations provide the rapid charging.

[Geezer]

Apparently the car could take something like 60A, 220V full power for charging, but not all stations provide the rapid charging.

For info, RV (that's caravan in the UK) hookups provide 110V at 30A so they are capable of powering an air-conditioner (or, as they say in "Strine", an eggnishna.)

[CliffordK]

I mentioned a couple of days ago that I had bid on an EV.

I didn't get the Gizmo, but I did get an Electric Ranger Conversion for less than the cost of the battery pack.
 [ Invalid Attachment ]

I'll write up some comments in a few days... 

But, the question is what is holding back electric car technology. 

Two things... so far...  and I've only had the Electric Ranger for a day.

I just got an E-Mail from my Insurance company

Cliff,

I just got off the phone with an underwriter and found out that this vehicle is ineligible for coverage thru xxxxxxxxxx. So there would be no 14 day coverage extension. We do not cover vehicles that have been converted because a conversion of this type affects many internal systems. They feel the risk of something going wrong and causing an accident is too high. I asked if there was a place that she would recommend for insuring these and she did not have a resource. If I were you, I would contact the people at the auction or the previous owner to find out where they had it insured. It may be a high risk company.

I do apologize for the inconvenience, but wanted to let you know what I found out right away.

Had I gotten the Gizmo, it may have been insurable, but it would have been much less safe of a vehicle for me, the driver.  But, I suppose that isn't the insurance company's concern.  And, with a top speed of 40 MPH (on the level), it is unclear whether it would have been legal to drive it home. 

The other issue that I'm running into.  The range is limited to about 40 miles.  Just enough to get to town, do a little stuff in town, and head home.  Assuming all the batteries are still good.

I know of one EV charging station which actually gives free power with the purchase of a Coffee.  However, nearly 40 years into the "modern" EVs, and they're just now getting charging station connection standards out. 

I believe the station uses a TESLA charger, which uses a proprietary plug that I'm having troubles finding information about. 

There is a new standard, J1772, and TESLA will likely incorporate that in their future cars.  But, then it just means more adapters, and retrofitting all of the charging stations that are already out there. 

If employers would allow one to charge the vehicles at work, or shopping malls would have charging stations so that one could charge while one shopped, then one could do well for around town driving, even with a very limited range.  Gas stations with an EV charger are fine, but who wants to sit in a gas station for a few hours? 

What this means is that one would need to build an infrastructure with businesses that ordinarily would not sell fuel.  And, monitor and maintain all the equipment.

The benefits of providing the charger isn't the cost of the power, but bringing the customer to one's business location.

[Geezer]

What's the total weight of the ranger? I hope they beefed up the brakes []