WHY Operate on Varicose Veins?

  • 137 Replies
  • 102553 Views

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

*

Offline Andrew K Fletcher

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • 2331
  • KIS Keep It Simple
    • View Profile
WHY Operate on Varicose Veins?
« on: 18/12/2008 11:41:16 »
Made a prediction based on a theory about gravity driving the circulation. That prediction was that varicose veins would greatly improve when a flat bed is avoided in favour of an inclined bed set at a five degree to the horizontal slope affording the head to be higher than the feet. This is called Inclined Bed Therapy, or IBT for short.

The idea was that if we could show photographically these improvements and document them as they occur it would stimulate some interest from the doctors and scientists on this forum and at least gain some comments and questions.

Well, thanks to Alun and a few others who are trying IBT, we now have that compelling photographic evidence and would like to move this forward by inviting doctors and nurses to try to disprove the effects of head up tilt instead of sleeping flat for people with varicose veins and oedema.

The main question that arises from the research and results is why has this been ignored by the many thousands of people who have viewed the thread, many of whom are doctors and nurses?

Why do we needlessly operate on varicose veins when simply changing the angle of our bed will address the pressure differences in the veins and cause them to become pulled in rather than bulging out.

1994 when this was first noticed. Many more people have benefited from this since then. Why has it not become mainstream? Why are you and your colleagues still relying on literature that is obviously in need of some serious revision?

We need your help to progress this further. Please do not walk away and pretend it never happened. It has happened and we now have the photographs online to prove it happened!

Looking forward to your replies with interest.

Andrew K Fletcher


http://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?topic=9843.150




Photographs from Alun provide compelling evidence that varicose veins are caused by pressure not be defective valves. Alun has not had any surgery! Valve damage in this case has been proven to be erroneous!
« Last Edit: 15/01/2009 08:37:12 by chris »
Science is continually evolving. Nothing is set in stone. Question everything and everyone. Always consider vested interests as a reason for miss-direction. But most of all explore and find answers that you are comfortable with

*

Offline Andrew K Fletcher

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • 2331
  • KIS Keep It Simple
    • View Profile
Re: WHY Operate on Varicose Veins?
« Reply #1 on: 22/12/2008 20:28:42 »
51 views and not a single comment?
Science is continually evolving. Nothing is set in stone. Question everything and everyone. Always consider vested interests as a reason for miss-direction. But most of all explore and find answers that you are comfortable with

*

Offline Bored chemist

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • 8735
    • View Profile
Re: WHY Operate on Varicose Veins?
« Reply #2 on: 22/12/2008 20:48:44 »
Did I  ask if there was a double blind trial?
Single blind would do for a start.
« Last Edit: 22/12/2008 20:50:18 by Bored chemist »
Please disregard all previous signatures.

*

Offline Andrew K Fletcher

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • 2331
  • KIS Keep It Simple
    • View Profile
Re: WHY Operate on Varicose Veins?
« Reply #3 on: 22/12/2008 21:01:22 »
I'm gain. Do you know anyone who might be up for testing IBT in a university, sleep study centre or hospital? Say the word and we can get started. Professor Ernst at Exeter University and his colleagues are keen. Have the letter expressing their interest at hand. My MP Adrian Sanders is very keen to get this study set up. Peter Lewis and Celeste, two vascular surgeons also stated they would like to see a study. How do we get from A to B?
Science is continually evolving. Nothing is set in stone. Question everything and everyone. Always consider vested interests as a reason for miss-direction. But most of all explore and find answers that you are comfortable with

*

Offline Andrew K Fletcher

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • 2331
  • KIS Keep It Simple
    • View Profile
Re: WHY Operate on Varicose Veins?
« Reply #4 on: 22/12/2008 21:15:46 »
Prediction   4 weeks and we will prove the efficacy of IBT on oedema and varicose veins!
Science is continually evolving. Nothing is set in stone. Question everything and everyone. Always consider vested interests as a reason for miss-direction. But most of all explore and find answers that you are comfortable with

*

Offline RD

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • 8169
    • View Profile
Re: WHY Operate on Varicose Veins?
« Reply #5 on: 22/12/2008 22:27:25 »
I think it has already been established that elevating legs with varicose veins gives temporary relief ...

Quote
Although individual varicose veins can be removed or eliminated by surgery or injection therapy, the disorder cannot be cured. Thus, treatment mainly relieves symptoms, improves appearance, and prevents complications. Elevating the legs—by lying down or using a footstool when sitting—relieves the symptoms of varicose veins but does not prevent new varicose veins from forming.
http://www.merck.com/mmhe/sec03/ch036/ch036d.html

To scientifically prove that IBT has beneficial effects you will need some way of objectively measuring any improvement.
Simply asking participants if they feel IBT has improved their condition. (i.e. self-assessment) is not a reliable method of measuring the outcome.

PS
If I had oedema I'd rather the fluid was in my legs than accumulating in my chest and obstructing the function of my heart and lungs.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fluid_overload
« Last Edit: 22/12/2008 22:59:01 by RD »

*

Offline Andrew K Fletcher

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • 2331
  • KIS Keep It Simple
    • View Profile
Re: WHY Operate on Varicose Veins?
« Reply #6 on: 22/12/2008 23:37:17 »
RD Thank You

IBT is tilting the bed in the opposite direction to which the current literature advises- for giving temporary relief, as you mention in your quote. The Varicose vein thread has highly significant photographs of before and after IBT, which is to raise the bed at the head end by five degrees to the horizontal sloping but a level surface as in the picture in the VV thread.

The literature states raising the legs higher or level with the heart provides some temporary relief from oedema. However many people who have responded to IBT had indeed tried the medical advice and at first found it difficult to understand why something so simple could work when surgery and head down tilt often fail with increased risk of further complications, including gangrene, infection, thrombosis, amputation, and frequent repeated operations for failures are costing the UK NHS in excess of £500 million a year for surgery alone. A further 600 million for ulcer and after care.

The problem is that the medical profession is hanging on to a belief rather than sound science in support of their surgery approach to resolve varicose veins and oedema. But they have failed to grasp what changes the pressure inside the veins and in doing so will never be able to resolve these terrible conditions. IBT on the other hand addresses the cause by avoiding flat bedrest. A series of photographs have been placed on the varicose veins study thread to show clearly how swollen veins are pulled in using a sound understanding of how circulation relies on gravity to assist flow. Again current literature erroneously believes that we constantly struggle against gravity and that the heart is pumping against the pull of gravity when the pictures speak volumes against this nonsense.

1 set of photographs in particular deal with Alun while laying on the inclined bed in the morning showing his veins to be deflated to the point where they look normal.

Another erroneous idea from the literature is that blood will pool around the ankles. It does nothing of the kind! The circulation by name is circular by nature in that we have a flow and a return flow.

And once we have altered the pressure inside the vein that was causing the bulging, the oedema problem is also resolved as the fluid flow from the veins to the skin is completely reversed, again posts on the VV thread show this to be correct.

Now we could argue that a study is required to determine minute changes as and when they occur, or indeed if they do not occur using IBT. Again I ask you to view the pictures. Because they do provide us with a visual measurement.

So this question arises: Patient care or surgeons profit?

I think it has already been established that elevating legs with varicose veins gives temporary relief ...

Quote
Although individual varicose veins can be removed or eliminated by surgery or injection therapy, the disorder cannot be cured. Thus, treatment mainly relieves symptoms, improves appearance, and prevents complications. Elevating the legs—by lying down or using a footstool when sitting—relieves the symptoms of varicose veins but does not prevent new varicose veins from forming.
http://www.merck.com/mmhe/sec03/ch036/ch036d.html

To scientifically prove that IBT has beneficial effects you will need some way of objectively measuring any improvement.
Simply asking participants if they feel IBT has improved their condition. (i.e. self-assessment) is not a reliable method of measuring the outcome.

PS
If I had oedema I'd rather the fluid was in my legs than accumulating in my chest and obstructing the function of my heart and lungs.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fluid_overload

Science is continually evolving. Nothing is set in stone. Question everything and everyone. Always consider vested interests as a reason for miss-direction. But most of all explore and find answers that you are comfortable with

*

Offline RD

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • 8169
    • View Profile
Re: WHY Operate on Varicose Veins?
« Reply #7 on: 23/12/2008 00:25:37 »
Another erroneous idea from the literature is that blood will pool around the ankles. It does nothing of the kind! The circulation by name is circular by nature in that we have a flow and a return flow.


If you wish to measure blood flow rates there are ultrasonic doppler gadgets which can do that ...

[attachment=6013]

Quote
Pole test for measurement of ankle pressures in patients with calcified vessels: the Doppler probe is placed over a patent pedal artery and the foot raised against a pole that is calibrated in mm Hg. The point at which the pedal signal disappears is taken as the ankle pressure
http://student.bmj.com/back_issues/0800/education/270.html
« Last Edit: 23/12/2008 00:44:39 by RD »

*

Offline NobodySavedMe

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • 112
    • View Profile
Re: WHY Operate on Varicose Veins?
« Reply #8 on: 23/12/2008 18:57:53 »
The medical profession is one of the most corrupt and filled with people who prefer the status quo.

The established voodoo boys don't want any outsider coming in and telling them what to do or challenging them.

The whole history of the medical profession,if you bother reading your medical history,is filled with stick in the mud boys who fought tooth and nail against any progress.Harvey was nearly hanged by the medical mafia when he claimed blood circulates in the body.

Most doctors are in the pay of Pharmaceutical companies who give out free gifts/holidays disguised as conferences and get them to give their patients filled with dangerous patented,money making,expensive but toxic and useless, prescription drugs.

I just hear that many drug companies are using fake peer reviewers on their own payroll to write research articles about their own drugs!

This is called fraud.

I find most doctors incredibly arrogant,patronising and just want you to shut up and accept what they say.

Fact is most doctors are just overpaid pill pushers who get paid 1/4 a million a year.

For any advance or new thinking in the medial profession you have to wait for the old gays to die out.

*

Offline BenV

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • 1503
    • View Profile
Re: WHY Operate on Varicose Veins?
« Reply #9 on: 23/12/2008 21:43:33 »
I'm sorry you feel that way.  Every doctor I have ever met got into medicine in order to help people.  You may have had bad experiences, but I'm afraid that the world simply isn't like that, and the medical profession is not as you imagine.

Of course they favour the status quo - it's unethical to do anything until there is ample evidence that it's effective.

Also, pharma companies are not as bad as you think.  I'm sure there are bad apples, as there are in any industry (alternative medicine is just as bad - if not worse, given that they can get away with more due to the lower regulation).  It's simply unreasonable to claim that all pharma companies and their employees act out of greed and malice.

*

Offline Andrew K Fletcher

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • 2331
  • KIS Keep It Simple
    • View Profile
Re: WHY Operate on Varicose Veins?
« Reply #10 on: 24/12/2008 08:52:03 »
I know there are many damned good doctors and nurses out there doing what they can for their patients with compassion and concern. My own doctors are wonderful people. But this does not change the fact that the medical profession is reluctant to move forward or indeed to investigate anything novel that is presenting highly significant results even if it is labelled anecdotal as in the case of Inclined Bed Therapy for helping people with varicose veins.

This thread is proving this to be the case. Many people will read it is unlikely that anyone will investigate it further than skimping through the photographs, shrugging their shoulders and thinking it is a fluke a fix or a fraud rather than asking those placing the photographic evidence before them.

The point that jumps out at you here is: If we really are concerned about People and follow the Hippocratic Oath to the letter as sworn by all doctors to do no harm. Why are we ignoring the fact that tilting a bed the opposite way around to what we have been taught in med school is having such a profound beneficial effect on varicose veins and oedema and continue to perform costly, risky, complicated surgery that is destined to failure because it is like placing a sticky plaster over a hole in a dam, when the real remedy is to address the cause of pressure behind the sticky plaster!

The prediction behind the varicose vein study was that varicose veins would greatly improve over time using IBT as opposed to sleeping flat or having your legs above or level with the heart.

This online study has now confirmed this for all to see. Yet people reading the thread and viewing the photographs and observe a scientific truth would rather walk away as if nothing has happened.

B.C. bless him, at least tries to challenge the results by stating “where is the controlled study?” In answer to this. It is being controlled so it never takes place while the dinosaurs that run the medical cartels are still alive! All sorts of excuses can be put in place. But we really can’t ignore the fact that IBT works for people with varicose veins and oedema and indeed many more serious medical conditions. But in order to move forward the medical profession needs to get their heads out of the sand and test this simple zero cost therapy and look in the precious literature to find a reason why it is so effective.

Remember: 1 case of vaccination success for small pox was all it took to convince the whole profession that vaccine was the way forward. However a lateral thinker was required in order to observe that contact with cow pox was providing protection.

The history of scurvy is another prime example of how the medical profession closes ranks to prevent the obvious benefits of a balanced diet on board ships often at see for months.. Yet the crew of the Kronprinz Wilhelm during the First World War nearly lost it’s entire crew due to failure to take on board the importance of a healthy diet, gorging themselves upon the spoils of war from ships they attacked. My point here is lifetimes pass before our eyes and great opportunities to further our understanding of nature and medicine are wasted.

I ask again how do we get from point A to point B. B being a controlled study to test IBT for efficacy in helping people to avoid surgery for varicose veins and other complications of the circulation system.

How long have I been trying to get a study up and running?-----


Multiple Sclerosis,Wednesday 24-Mar-1999 16:31:27,212.228.66.3
writes,In February 1996 I began taking part in Andrew Fletcher's
Experiment to assess what would be gained by sleeping at an angle.  As
instructed I raised my bed by six inches at the head and expected to
slide to the other end. Fortunately that did not happen. But after a
few weeks I started to notice a change in my multiple sclerosis
symptoms.   I first of all noticed a significant change in my
circulation. The right foot was no longer uncomfortably hot during the
evenings  and the signs of impending varicose veins in my legs
disappeared.
Walking became much easier  especially after I tried using a
dehumidifier in the bedroom to control the moisture levels in the
atmosphere.
Another very pleasing improvement was in the use of my right hand  I
began to write more legibly and to handle cups and cutlery with greater
ease.
In September 1996 I mystified my optician when a routine eye test
showed a marked improvement in the MS damaged right eye. Six months
later more visual improvement was found.
This was an unusual occurrence and could only be explained by the
action of a healing process in the optic nerve. The optician was very
interested in Andrew's experiment and contacted him to find out more!
Other members of my family have also been involved in the experiment.
We raised my teenage daughter's bed by the same angle in an attempt
to alleviate a life long insomnia problem.   To our astonishment she
slept soundly the very first night!
It goes without saying that we shall not be reverting to sleeping
horizontally  but intend to continue using Andrew's healthier
alternative.
  Endnote from Andrew
Pauline's eyesight improved so much that she is now legally entitled
to drive a car without wearing spectacles.

  ,Pauline (Pilot Study Participant) ,
Science is continually evolving. Nothing is set in stone. Question everything and everyone. Always consider vested interests as a reason for miss-direction. But most of all explore and find answers that you are comfortable with

*

Offline RD

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • 8169
    • View Profile
Re: WHY Operate on Varicose Veins?
« Reply #11 on: 25/12/2008 03:39:25 »
MS can have relapsing-remitting course, marked recoveries after spontaneous remissions are not unusual.
The "healing process" in MS is called remyelination which occurs naturally without any treatment.
So Pauline's improvement does not prove that IBT has improved her condition.
Pauline's belief (wish?) that she has an effective treatment for her condition is not proof either.

PS
Pauline's testimonial is over 12 years old. Has her inclined bed stopped her from having any relapses in that period ?
The interval between MS relapses is hugely variable, (some only ever have one relapse), but on average is 10 - 30 months

PPS
photos are not able to accurately measure any changes to varicose veins, however this type of imaging could ...

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=VGxEUKPNqcA&feature=related

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=DiY45jALWjE&NR=1
« Last Edit: 25/12/2008 05:22:10 by RD »

*

Offline Andrew K Fletcher

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • 2331
  • KIS Keep It Simple
    • View Profile
Re: WHY Operate on Varicose Veins?
« Reply #12 on: 25/12/2008 09:05:13 »
RD

Pauline was not relapsing remitting MS but long term progressive MS. She lost her sight and was told it would never return. Pauline was one of many people with MS that showed remarkable recovery. There were also some relapsing remitting cases that joined the pilot study and these appeared to benefit from IBT quicker than those who were long term progressive. Many of the people had been refused the ABC drug on grounds that it would have no effect due to the severity and term they had been living with MS.

The argument that it could have happened anyway is not uncommon from doctors and surgeons, or even nurses. This was why we moved on to spinal cord injury. Here we do not have a “it could have happened anyway” get out clause. Well it did happen and to several people with a spinal cord injury minimum 2 years post injury. The video on you tube shows this clearly! Bowl and bladder control was restored in both MS and SCI.

THE MSRC report on 10 people with multiple sclerosis provides some insight into what happens to the nervous system when we tilt a bed this way. However the problem is always the same. The people that refute the improvements on the grounds they could be placebo, will avoid a proper controlled study at all cost! Why do you think this might be the case? Neurological conditions provide the slippery bastards with too many ways to ignore this important research. http://www.newmediaexplorer.org/sepp/SCIStudypart1.pdf]Look at the bottom of this file for the MSRC Report.

Varicose veins on the other hand nails them to the post. You say that photographs cannot be used to measure varicose veins. I say they can when they are analysed by the most powerful computer known. The human brain!

We need this varicose veins study now! Not in 10 or 20 years time.

How do we move from Point A to Point B?

Andrew

 


MS can have relapsing-remitting course, marked recoveries after spontaneous remissions are not unusual.
The "healing process" in MS is called remyelination which occurs naturally without any treatment.
So Pauline's improvement does not prove that IBT has improved her condition.
Pauline's belief (wish?) that she has an effective treatment for her condition is not proof either.

PS
Pauline's testimonial is over 12 years old. Has her inclined bed stopped her from having any relapses in that period ?
The interval between MS relapses is hugely variable, (some only ever have one relapse), but on average is 10 - 30 months

PPS
photos are not able to accurately measure any changes to varicose veins, however this type of imaging could ...

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=VGxEUKPNqcA&feature=related

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=DiY45jALWjE&NR=1
« Last Edit: 25/12/2008 09:21:13 by Andrew K Fletcher »
Science is continually evolving. Nothing is set in stone. Question everything and everyone. Always consider vested interests as a reason for miss-direction. But most of all explore and find answers that you are comfortable with

*

Offline RD

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • 8169
    • View Profile
Re: WHY Operate on Varicose Veins?
« Reply #13 on: 25/12/2008 18:16:55 »
Pauline was not relapsing remitting MS but long term progressive MS.
She lost her sight and was told it would never return.

The progress of MS is not predictable, here are a few examples (not exhaustive) ...

[attachment=6051]

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=l9wtYZ_iCCIC&pg=PA1644

From the initial pattern of relapses (yellow area) it is not possible to extrapolate into the future: A, B, F & G all begin in a similar fashion.


She lost her sight and was told it would never return.
Pauline was one of many people with MS that showed remarkable recovery.

People with MS regaining sight or the ability to walk without treatment is not unusual, (remyelination).
The recovery is not ususally 100%: there is usually some residual permanent damage. Unfortunately MS revisits areas it has affected before, so sufferers can repeatedly lose and regain a faculty, usually recovering less after each relapse.
« Last Edit: 25/12/2008 18:39:00 by RD »

*

Offline Andrew K Fletcher

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • 2331
  • KIS Keep It Simple
    • View Profile
Re: WHY Operate on Varicose Veins?
« Reply #14 on: 26/12/2008 10:24:27 »
Thanks for the graph RD

Pauline and several others were in category C: not the relapsing remitting ms but the long slow gradual declining type of multiple sclerosis. This was precisely why John Simkins became interested in inclined bed therapy. People with Relapsing remitting MS responded quicker than those with progressive ms.

Like I said, the "it could have happened anyway brigade" can easily find a way to ignore what happened to these people. My wife and I met Pauline around 8 years later walking around the town in Paignton. Lovely Lady who was very grateful for all that IBT had done for her and her family. She asked why has it taken so long to have your research investigated by doctors? I saw another lady with MS who was using IBT all those years ago walking around town on her own, something she could never have done before. I did not stop to talk to her, remaining an observer in the background, quite content with how much she had obviously benefited from IBT. 

In this brief exchange of text there is an insight into the remarkable possibilities of  IBT. And great opportunities to understand how the body benefits from the direction of gravity.

Have you read the MSRC report yet? Both of the ladies mentioned provided answers to the questions that compiled it.

Do you have a professional interest in neurological conditions RD?
Science is continually evolving. Nothing is set in stone. Question everything and everyone. Always consider vested interests as a reason for miss-direction. But most of all explore and find answers that you are comfortable with

*

Offline RD

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • 8169
    • View Profile
Re: WHY Operate on Varicose Veins?
« Reply #15 on: 26/12/2008 17:03:45 »
Like I said, the "it could have happened anyway brigade" can easily find a way to ignore what happened


Recoveries without treatment are not unusual in people with diagnosed with MS:
they routinely "happen anyway" (without treatment).

The graphs I posted are not exhaustive: other patterns are possible.
I added the graphs to illustrate the variable nature of the progression of MS.

PS
 MS is usually a "diagnosis of exclusion": without brain biopsy or necropsy it is not possible to say someone definitely has it.
 There are MS-like conditions, which can be misdiagnosed as MS. These MS-like conditions can have a different course to MS.

Quote
In the absence of pathognomonic clinical features or a definitive laboratory test, multiple sclerosis (MS) remains ultimately a diagnosis of exclusion. Accurate diagnosis is increasingly important with available disease modifying therapy. Unfortunately the rate of misdiagnosis remains around 5%-10%, indicating that 1 in 20 patients thought to have MS has, instead, a condition resembling MS.
http://www.springerlink.com/content/cwwyekcqbr948kn5/

So there is a 5%-10% chance Pauline, and anyone else diagnosed with MS, does not actually have it.
« Last Edit: 26/12/2008 18:29:21 by RD »

*

Offline Andrew K Fletcher

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • 2331
  • KIS Keep It Simple
    • View Profile
Re: WHY Operate on Varicose Veins?
« Reply #16 on: 26/12/2008 21:13:16 »
Precisely why I moved to spinal cord injury. Very hard for anyone to state the people that improved on IBT did not have a spinal cord injury! Take varicose veins for example. No one can say a person does not have a varicose vein when all the evidence shows they do have a varicose vein! Psoriasis also responds to IBT, although there is the option for people to dismiss improvements stating psoriasis fluctuates. Back to varicose veins to prove this important point, hence trying to convince people on this forum to conduct a simple study to show how surgery is not required for treating varicose veins.
« Last Edit: 26/12/2008 21:15:01 by Andrew K Fletcher »
Science is continually evolving. Nothing is set in stone. Question everything and everyone. Always consider vested interests as a reason for miss-direction. But most of all explore and find answers that you are comfortable with

*

Offline RD

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • 8169
    • View Profile
Re: WHY Operate on Varicose Veins?
« Reply #17 on: 27/12/2008 17:08:35 »
Therapies which have been claimed to be a panacea which can, "cure all ills", usually turn out to be completely ineffective.

To claim a therapy can treat unrelated conditions puts it in the same category as Snake Oil* and Holy Water.


[*Snake Oil has been shown to contain anti-inflammatory chemicals, so it could relieve inflammation, but cannot "cure all ills"].
« Last Edit: 27/12/2008 17:10:23 by RD »

*

Offline Andrew K Fletcher

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • 2331
  • KIS Keep It Simple
    • View Profile
Re: WHY Operate on Varicose Veins?
« Reply #18 on: 27/12/2008 17:40:54 »
Not claiming to cure all ills here. My claim is that gravity is driving the circulation! Making use of this is what turns out to be helping these people.

1.   So in response to your snake oil comment. May I remind you that the real snake oil was beneficial. With some conditions and is still used! The real problem was when people capitalised on it for money selling concoctions claiming them to be the genuine snake oil.
2.   Unrelated conditions is laughable when they are contained in the human body, how can you say they are unrelated?

Allopathic medicine are the real snake oil peddlers! Often peddling dangerous drugs on bogus fraudulent statistics, capitalised upon by multi billion $$$$ industry. Follow the money and you find the snake oil sellers.

Pray tell me where I earn money from people selling snake oils?

If you got off your high horse and investigated the claims for yourself you may find that everything I have written on this subject is factual.

While you are at it come up with another explanation for Aluns varicose veins going flat. Hint: He is a real person from Newcastle.
Science is continually evolving. Nothing is set in stone. Question everything and everyone. Always consider vested interests as a reason for miss-direction. But most of all explore and find answers that you are comfortable with

*

Offline Andrew K Fletcher

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • 2331
  • KIS Keep It Simple
    • View Profile
Re: WHY Operate on Varicose Veins?
« Reply #19 on: 09/01/2009 10:50:54 »
Still waiting for a response RD

BC. A double blind controled study is not required when the evidence is overwhelming. And this is the case with Alun!
Science is continually evolving. Nothing is set in stone. Question everything and everyone. Always consider vested interests as a reason for miss-direction. But most of all explore and find answers that you are comfortable with

*

Offline BenV

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • 1503
    • View Profile
Re: WHY Operate on Varicose Veins?
« Reply #20 on: 09/01/2009 11:47:11 »
I think one of the chief ethical issues here is that in order to prove that IBT works, we must ask people to forgo all other treatment of their condition for as long as it takes for the IBT to work.  This is a nightmare, and certainly contributes to why you're finding it so difficult to get people to test it.  As I think we've said before, if the NHS could use something free like IBT, they would, but they can't stop treating people with medications that already have been proven to work in order to test one that hasn't.

I know it's frustrating, but you're going to have to take it slowly.  If more people are willing to forgo their conventional treatments and test IBT, and more of their doctors willing to write up the results, you will eventually build up the body of evidence required for a full study.

Edit - and I think you'll have some issues when making comments like
Quote
My claim is that gravity is driving the circulation!
  It's not, the heart is.  I expect gravity does have some part to play, but it's certainly not what drives the circulation.  Making bold claims like this will make it harder for people to take IBT seriously.  Try to be more modest about your hypothesis, let the results speak for you.
« Last Edit: 09/01/2009 11:50:23 by BenV »

*

Offline Andrew K Fletcher

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • 2331
  • KIS Keep It Simple
    • View Profile
Re: WHY Operate on Varicose Veins?
« Reply #21 on: 09/01/2009 15:15:16 »
Ben. There are no treatments for varicose veins that work, other than surgery. This is precisely why varicose veins have been chosen to show how IBT works using gravity to change the pressure inside the veins causing them to be pulled in rather than bulging out, hence the statement that gravity drives circulation. In the case of the heart, let us remember that the heart is not formed first in a developing chick embryo. Circulation is in place before the heart forms. This is called primary circulation. A pulse is observed in simple tubular vessels long before the heart is developed. What then is driving this pulsatile circulation? Clearly it is not the heart!
Science is continually evolving. Nothing is set in stone. Question everything and everyone. Always consider vested interests as a reason for miss-direction. But most of all explore and find answers that you are comfortable with

*

Offline Andrew K Fletcher

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • 2331
  • KIS Keep It Simple
    • View Profile
Re: WHY Operate on Varicose Veins?
« Reply #22 on: 09/01/2009 15:16:52 »
Another point is that a flat bed is used with most patients and people who are healthy. This is not taken into account with all of the other medications, and clearly does not assist varicose veins to return to normal veins.
Science is continually evolving. Nothing is set in stone. Question everything and everyone. Always consider vested interests as a reason for miss-direction. But most of all explore and find answers that you are comfortable with

*

Offline _Stefan_

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • 814
    • View Profile
    • My Photobucket Album
Re: WHY Operate on Varicose Veins?
« Reply #23 on: 10/01/2009 13:18:08 »
...hence the statement that gravity drives circulation. In the case of the heart, let us remember that the heart is not formed first in a developing chick embryo. Circulation is in place before the heart forms. This is called primary circulation. A pulse is observed in simple tubular vessels long before the heart is developed. What then is driving this pulsatile circulation? Clearly it is not the heart!

I'm tired of reading that argument. As far as I can determine from my online search, embryonic blood circulation begins with the contractions of the primitive heart. Where is the evidence that gravity, not the developing heart, is responsible for pulsatile blood circulation in early embryos? Gravity probably does affect circulation, but the key word is "circulate", for which a pump is required. You only need common sense and a basic understanding of physics to see that.

Quote
The early embryonic vascular system permits circulation through a series of incompletely fused and developing channels. Before the heart is fully formed, the flow of circulation is diffuse rather than strongly unidirectional as it is in the atrial and venous systems of later fetal development. Movement of blood through the early embryonic vascular system begins as soon as the primitive heart tubes form and fuse. Contractions of the primitive heart begin early in development, as early as the initial fusion of the endothelial channels that fuse to form the heart.
http://www.bookrags.com/research/vascular-system-embryonic-developme-wap/

Quote
The embryonic vertebrate heart begins pumping blood long before the development of discernable chambers and valves. At these early stages, the heart tube has been described as a peristaltic pump.
http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/abstract/312/5774/751

« Last Edit: 11/01/2009 01:45:19 by _Stefan_ »
Stefan
"No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such a kind, that its falsehood would be more miraculous than the fact which it endeavors to establish." -David Hume

*

Offline Bored chemist

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • 8735
    • View Profile
Re: WHY Operate on Varicose Veins?
« Reply #24 on: 10/01/2009 17:43:03 »
Another point is that a flat bed is used with most patients and people who are healthy. This is not taken into account with all of the other medications, and clearly does not assist varicose veins to return to normal veins.
Most healthy people (in the West anyway) watch television. So it's clear that watching television doesn't stop you getting varicose veins. Does that mean that not watching television will prevent them?
Of course not.
Yet you seem to be saying that a flat bed doesn't help so an inclined bed will help.

You have also said that your "therapy" is based on inclining the bed in the oposite direction to that which has been shown to give relieif . Do you think that makes sense?
Please disregard all previous signatures.

*

Offline Andrew K Fletcher

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • 2331
  • KIS Keep It Simple
    • View Profile
Re: WHY Operate on Varicose Veins?
« Reply #25 on: 12/01/2009 10:34:09 »
You need to research some more Stefan. Primary circulation is in place long before the development of the primitive heart. No circulation = no heart developing! I have seen video footage of the primary circulation in a developing embryo. No rotation of a chick egg = no chick developing. Why do you think rotation is important to stimulate development in a chick embryo? It may also be worthwhile studying the effects of microgravity during orbit on chick development. Here is the clue! No pump is required for circulation. The oceans appear to get around this problem. So does a central heating system with a flow and return simple hot water sytem. No pump involved here. The water cycle itself appears to circulate without a pump too. How's that for a little common sense?

By using a soft walled closed loop of tube with say 5 mils of salt solution at one point. Elevating the tube so the salt solution flows down one side, we can see the wall of the tube bulging due to the pressure changes caused by the falling solute. = Pulse. In fact injecting pulses of salt solution in the closed latex tube we can see a pulsatile flow. On the other side of the tube in the return flow however we see the tube necking so one side is under positive pressure and the other side is under tension or reduced pressure.

Of course the primary circulation would appear to be defuse. Why wouldn't it? There are no circulatory pathways formed yet in the gelatinous egg. The food source being at the centre of the egg is in the ideal place for gravity influenced migration through the albumem.
Quote
Comparative Phisiology and Biochemistry
Changes in density and viscosity of chicken egg albumen and yolk during incubation
Dr. Hans-Jürgen Meuer, Christoph Egbers
Medizinische Hochschule Hannover, Zentrum Physiologie, D-3000 Hannover 61, Federal Republic of Germany

Abstract
In early stages of avian development, respiratory gas exchange takes place mainly through the blood vessels of the yolk sac membrane. Therefore, a short distance between the yolk sac membrane and the eggshell is required to ensure a sufficient oxygen supply of the embryo. In freshly laid eggs the yolk sphere is located approximately in the center of the egg, but soon after the beginning of incubation it moves to the upper pole right beneath the eggshell. The cause for this displacement is not known. To quantify the forces acting on the yolk sphere of chicken eggs during incubation, we measured the densities of albumen, yolk and subembryonic fluid and the viscosity of the liquid albumen. We found that between day 0 and day 4 of incubation the calculated buoyancy due to density differences between the egg components increases only threefold. This is probably too small to overcome the yield stress of the gel-like thick albumen that forms a capsule around the yolk sphere. A different process responsible for the yolk displacement is proposed. Under reduced gravity, the movements of the yolk are influenced substantially by the fluid properties of the thin albumen, especially yield stress. Furthermore, acceleration peaks present in a space laboratory will probably displace the yolk sphere away from the eggshell. This is strong evidence that an early chick embryo will not be able to survive in a space laboratory in ovo.
Received: 21 October 1989; Accepted: 6 December 1989

Digital Object Identifier (DOI)

10.1002/jez.1402550104  About DOI

 

...hence the statement that gravity drives circulation. In the case of the heart, let us remember that the heart is not formed first in a developing chick embryo. Circulation is in place before the heart forms. This is called primary circulation. A pulse is observed in simple tubular vessels long before the heart is developed. What then is driving this pulsatile circulation? Clearly it is not the heart!

I'm tired of reading that argument. As far as I can determine from my online search, embryonic blood circulation begins with the contractions of the primitive heart. Where is the evidence that gravity, not the developing heart, is responsible for pulsatile blood circulation in early embryos? Gravity probably does affect circulation, but the key word is "circulate", for which a pump is required. You only need common sense and a basic understanding of physics to see that.

Quote
The early embryonic vascular system permits circulation through a series of incompletely fused and developing channels. Before the heart is fully formed, the flow of circulation is diffuse rather than strongly unidirectional as it is in the atrial and venous systems of later fetal development. Movement of blood through the early embryonic vascular system begins as soon as the primitive heart tubes form and fuse. Contractions of the primitive heart begin early in development, as early as the initial fusion of the endothelial channels that fuse to form the heart.
http://www.bookrags.com/research/vascular-system-embryonic-developme-wap/

Quote
The embryonic vertebrate heart begins pumping blood long before the development of discernable chambers and valves. At these early stages, the heart tube has been described as a peristaltic pump.
http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/abstract/312/5774/751


« Last Edit: 12/01/2009 10:35:56 by Andrew K Fletcher »
Science is continually evolving. Nothing is set in stone. Question everything and everyone. Always consider vested interests as a reason for miss-direction. But most of all explore and find answers that you are comfortable with

*

lyner

  • Guest
Re: WHY Operate on Varicose Veins?
« Reply #26 on: 12/01/2009 10:54:01 »
You've been going on about 'gravity driving the circulation' for ages now. Gravity is not a source of energy. Once something has fallen down you need energy from somewhere else to make it go up again. If you use falling salt to cause circulation then you have to get the salt back up again in order to sustain the circulation. This needs energy from somewhere else. In all your experiments YOU lifted the salt up high to provide the energy.

As far as the heart is concerned - surely you know that the blood vessels (arteries) contribute to the circulation by contracting as well as the heart muscles. Primitive systems have little more than a length of muscular pipe to provide circulation.

*

Offline Andrew K Fletcher

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • 2331
  • KIS Keep It Simple
    • View Profile
Re: WHY Operate on Varicose Veins?
« Reply #27 on: 12/01/2009 11:00:28 »
BC,
Good that you mentioned sitting posture as a contributing factor. Bad sitting posture causes haemorrhoids. These are painful swollen veins. This affects most people who are confined to wheelchairs, particularly those with spinal cord injuries. The loner you sit, the greater restriction is placed on the veins and the more likely they are to inflate. That arterial pressure has to go somewhere. I suspect if you spent far too long watching tv without changing your posture as would be the case if you had paralysis, you would experience swollen veins.

If you were to modify your posture while watching tv so that your knees were at all times lower than your bottom, there would indeed be less chance of developing swollen veins. But more to the point, if you have swollen veins, then simple modifications to your posture are all that is required to rectify the problem, as shown clearly in the photographs provided by Alun.

The relief from oedema and varicose veins provided by tilting the bed head down or indeed elevating your legs is temporary, in that it shifts fluid from the affect part of the body back towards the upper part of the body, it does not draw the fluids from the surrounding tissue back into the venous return as IBT does, but offers a simple mechanical way to cause the fluid to migrate back into the body from the elevated limbs. The problem with this is that when we stand up again the fluid rapidly returns back to the lower extremities. The veins do not recover using a bed tilted this way, hence the 5-6  hundred million pounds a year spent on operations which are destined to fail miserably because operating on veins does not address the cause of the pressure that inflated them in the first place.
Science is continually evolving. Nothing is set in stone. Question everything and everyone. Always consider vested interests as a reason for miss-direction. But most of all explore and find answers that you are comfortable with

*

Offline Andrew K Fletcher

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • 2331
  • KIS Keep It Simple
    • View Profile
Re: WHY Operate on Varicose Veins?
« Reply #28 on: 12/01/2009 11:04:34 »
WRONG! The conduits are filled with fluids, so no need to lift the salt up because it is already circulating in the body and in the tree for that matter. To cause a gravity flow and return circulation all that is required is for evaporation from the fluids laden with salts and sugars to take place. The lungs, skin, hair, eyes, respiratory tract all evaporate water. So do the leaves of a tree. So we alter the density at the top, this causes it to fall due to the direction of gravity, this causes the more dilute fluids to circulate and tension is applied to the content of the gut or indeed the roots of a tree to pull more water and solutes back in to replace the fluids lost by evaporation and urination in the case of the body.

I lifted the experiments up high to provide a visual display of what is undoubtedly taking place inside the body and inside the tree. Evaporation is the key consideration. To ignore the fact that evaporation will always result in a change in density is insanity! A leaf cannot evaporate solute free water from a fluid that contains solutes without concentrating the solutes. This is totally and utterly impossible!


You've been going on about 'gravity driving the circulation' for ages now. Gravity is not a source of energy. Once something has fallen down you need energy from somewhere else to make it go up again. If you use falling salt to cause circulation then you have to get the salt back up again in order to sustain the circulation. This needs energy from somewhere else. In all your experiments YOU lifted the salt up high to provide the energy.
« Last Edit: 12/01/2009 11:10:00 by Andrew K Fletcher »
Science is continually evolving. Nothing is set in stone. Question everything and everyone. Always consider vested interests as a reason for miss-direction. But most of all explore and find answers that you are comfortable with

*

Offline BenV

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • 1503
    • View Profile
Re: WHY Operate on Varicose Veins?
« Reply #29 on: 12/01/2009 11:37:08 »
Quote
A pulse is observed in simple tubular vessels long before the heart is developed. What then is driving this pulsatile circulation? Clearly it is not the heart!
But a gravity driven circulation system would have no pulse.

Quote
The lungs, skin, hair, eyes, respiratory tract all evaporate water. So do the leaves of a tree. So we alter the density at the top, this causes it to fall due to the direction of gravity, this causes the more dilute fluids to circulate and tension is applied to the content of the gut or indeed the roots of a tree to pull more water and solutes back in to replace the fluids lost by evaporation and urination in the case of the body.
But the vascular system in a tree is not a closed loop.  Also, the kidneys and small intestine alter blood density far more than the lungs, so wouldn't this imply that we would have circulation only as far as the kidneys?

And another point - the circulation in an adult with varicose veins is hardly comparable to that of a developing chick foetus - you cannot escape the fact that there is a bloodly great pump in the system.  Have you ever compared the rate of solute flow downwards with gravity against the rate of flow in any direction from the heart?  I haven't, so would be interested to hear how it works out - I suspect the heart vastly overpowers gravity.
« Last Edit: 12/01/2009 11:45:28 by BenV »

*

lyner

  • Guest
Re: WHY Operate on Varicose Veins?
« Reply #30 on: 12/01/2009 11:59:46 »
Quote
The lungs, skin, hair, eyes, respiratory tract all evaporate water.
So if you stood on your head, it would work the other way round?

Why do we bother to have a heart if we could just use your system? How much energy does your evaporation system generate? Have you done the sums? How much energy is needed to drive the blood around the  system? Does your proposed mechanism produce enough? Without some numerical evidence, your proposed idea is just not Science. (I think I've mentioned this to you before)

*

Offline JnA

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • 1093
  • Stunt Scientist
    • View Profile
Re: WHY Operate on Varicose Veins?
« Reply #31 on: 12/01/2009 13:14:22 »
What surprises me most is the simple fact that VV are caused by a breakdown of the very structures inside our veins that fight gravity.

*

Offline Andrew K Fletcher

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • 2331
  • KIS Keep It Simple
    • View Profile
Re: WHY Operate on Varicose Veins?
« Reply #32 on: 12/01/2009 16:40:25 »
Not at all Ben,
Each breath we take releases a pulse of salts down the main artery.

Renal filtration is altered in relation to gravity. Head down tilt produces urine with near water density. You can test this, I have mentioned it before. IBT provides us with much denser urine output than flat bed rest and head down bedrest.

The heart rate decreases by 10-12 beats per minute on IBT. Yet circulation is improved. So if the heart beats less and circulation increases how do you account for that?

The late Professor Hammel wrote several papers on this subject. A paper on how solutes alter pressures inside vessels. A discussion with him by phone revealed he had already observed pulses of solutes arriving at the kidneys.

Am J Physiol. 1995 May;268
Roles of colloidal molecules in Starling's hypothesis and in returning interstitial fluid to the vasa recta.
Hammel HT.
Department of Physiology and Biophysics, Indiana University, Bloomington 47405, USA.
To begin to understand the role of colloidal molecules, a simple question requires an answer: How do the solutes alter water in an aqueous solution? Hulett's answer deserves attention, namely, the water in the solution at temperature and external pressure applied to solution (T,pe1) is altered in the same way that pure water is altered by reducing the pressure applied to it by the osmotic pressure of the water at a free surface of the solution. It is nonsense to relate the lower chemical potential of water in a solution to a lower fugacity or to a lower activity of the water in the solution, since these terms have no physical meaning. It is also incorrect to attribute the lower chemical potential of the water to a lower concentration of water in the solution. Both claims are derived from the teachings of G. N. Lewis and are erroneous. Textbook accounts of the flux of fluid to and from capillaries in the kidney and other tissues are inadequate, if not in error, as they are based on these bogus claims. An understanding of the process by which colloidal proteins in plasma affect the flux of nearly protein-free fluid across the capillary endothelium must start with insights derived from the teachings of G. Hulett and H. Dixon. The main points are 1) colloidal molecules can exert a pressure against a membrane that reflects them and, thereby, displace a distensible membrane; 2) they can alter the internal tension of the fluid through which they diffuse when there is a concentration gradient of the molecules; and 3) only by these means can they influence the flux of plasma fluid across the capillary endothelium. However, the process is complex, since both the hydrostatic pressure and protein concentrations of fluids inside and outside the capillary vary with both position and time as plasma flows through the capillary.


Quote
A pulse is observed in simple tubular vessels long before the heart is developed. What then is driving this pulsatile circulation? Clearly it is not the heart!
But a gravity driven circulation system would have no pulse.

Quote
The lungs, skin, hair, eyes, respiratory tract all evaporate water. So do the leaves of a tree. So we alter the density at the top, this causes it to fall due to the direction of gravity, this causes the more dilute fluids to circulate and tension is applied to the content of the gut or indeed the roots of a tree to pull more water and solutes back in to replace the fluids lost by evaporation and urination in the case of the body.
But the vascular system in a tree is not a closed loop.  Also, the kidneys and small intestine alter blood density far more than the lungs, so wouldn't this imply that we would have circulation only as far as the kidneys?

And another point - the circulation in an adult with varicose veins is hardly comparable to that of a developing chick foetus - you cannot escape the fact that there is a bloodly great pump in the system.  Have you ever compared the rate of solute flow downwards with gravity against the rate of flow in any direction from the heart?  I haven't, so would be interested to hear how it works out - I suspect the heart vastly overpowers gravity.
Science is continually evolving. Nothing is set in stone. Question everything and everyone. Always consider vested interests as a reason for miss-direction. But most of all explore and find answers that you are comfortable with

*

Offline Andrew K Fletcher

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • 2331
  • KIS Keep It Simple
    • View Profile
Re: WHY Operate on Varicose Veins?
« Reply #33 on: 12/01/2009 16:46:13 »
My science produces results not equations!
I point again with a finger toards Aluns photographs. 6 months of IBT and nice flat former varicose veins speak louder than a billion sums. May I also remind you of the curent banking crisis. Here the maths all made perfect sense to those who lacked common sense.

Quote
The lungs, skin, hair, eyes, respiratory tract all evaporate water.
So if you stood on your head, it would work the other way round?

Why do we bother to have a heart if we could just use your system? How much energy does your evaporation system generate? Have you done the sums? How much energy is needed to drive the blood around the  system? Does your proposed mechanism produce enough? Without some numerical evidence, your proposed idea is just not Science. (I think I've mentioned this to you before)
Science is continually evolving. Nothing is set in stone. Question everything and everyone. Always consider vested interests as a reason for miss-direction. But most of all explore and find answers that you are comfortable with

*

Offline Andrew K Fletcher

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • 2331
  • KIS Keep It Simple
    • View Profile
Re: WHY Operate on Varicose Veins?
« Reply #34 on: 12/01/2009 16:50:19 »
JnA good point about the valves and structures of the veins. The photographs Alun has provided us with show that damaged valves could not have been the cause of the pressure that produced varicose veins. He should have had surgery, but fortunately decided to give IBT a chance.


What surprises me most is the simple fact that VV are caused by a breakdown of the very structures inside our veins that fight gravity.
Science is continually evolving. Nothing is set in stone. Question everything and everyone. Always consider vested interests as a reason for miss-direction. But most of all explore and find answers that you are comfortable with

*

lyner

  • Guest
Re: WHY Operate on Varicose Veins?
« Reply #35 on: 12/01/2009 17:12:50 »
Akf:
Your 'Science' doesn't produce results. Some of the things you do have been associated with good effects on a few sufferers. What you have achieved may have been contributary towards benefits. That can only be good and very well done.
However, your explations for some of these phenomena are not justified by the results you quote. There is no connection.
If you think that 'equations', somehow, just don't apply to Science where you are concerned then you are clearly wrong.
Stick to recounting your successes but try to avoid indulging yourself with fanciful explanations. If your explanations were accurate then most of proven technology would not work.

*

lyner

  • Guest
Re: WHY Operate on Varicose Veins?
« Reply #36 on: 12/01/2009 17:38:54 »
AKF
Quote
The heart rate decreases by 10-12 beats per minute on IBT. Yet circulation is improved. So if the heart beats less and circulation increases how do you account for that?

You would expect the heart rate to decrease when you are not standing. There is less work for it to do. The blood pressure at the interfaces in the kidneys will also be affected by the attitude of the body. How do either of these facts justify your new model of the body?

Did your friendly Proff tell you that the 'pulses of solutes' he detected at the kidneys were, in any way, related to breathing rate? I hate to ask this but have you actually calculated (???) the change in density of the blood as it goes through the lungs due to evaporation? Surely the actual amount would be highly relevant to whether or not you were right in your theory. Perhaps that would be a bit too like hard fact for your liking.
Needless to say, the effect on circulation to the head would be in the opposite direction as the heart would need to be pumping more dense blood upwards. Did you not think it through?

*

Offline Andrew K Fletcher

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • 2331
  • KIS Keep It Simple
    • View Profile
Re: WHY Operate on Varicose Veins?
« Reply #37 on: 12/01/2009 17:44:49 »
Sophie. First of all thank you for the praise. I have taken a screen shot just in case I have been dreaming it.

Give me the benefit of the doubt here.

1.Why on earth would I want to tilt a bed head up by 5 degrees unless I had a sound reason to do so?
2. Why would varicose veins shrink after only 4 weeks of titled bed rest if there is no connection with the inclined bed therapy logic?
3. Why on earth would anyone give up 15 years of their life to investigate the effects of tilting a bed on many medical conditions and then face hostility and ignorance from those who should be concerned about helping people with these conditions?

Contributing towards the effects is hardly going to explain why this is working with those that decide to try it is it?

I fail to see how maths can help to convince a person to tilt their bed by five degrees to the horizontal and watch their varicose veins deflate and eventually return to normal looking veins. Perhaps I may be missing a point here?

Believe it or not. This all began trying to understand how trees lift water and realising evaporation was providing a mechanism for altering the density of dissolved solutes in sap at the leaf.

Tilting the bed in the first place was just to see if anything would change if my wife and I avoided sleeping flat in favour of a gentle head up tilt. We too believed there might be some oedema problems but decided to give it a whirl and see.

After a mere 4 weeks of trying to analyse what if anything was happening to us. And we were convinced of improvements in energy, body temperature, sleep etc etc, A conversation with a nurse called Stephanie Ness about whether it would work for people with varicose veins made us realise that Jude’s VV had stopped aching and no longer bulged after a mere 4 weeks of IBT. This was also mirrored by the Nurse who reported her own VV had gone flat in the same period. Now this could have been a double coincidence, so Mum decided to tilt her bed and noticed her veins also greatly improved. And since then many more people have reported huge improvements in varicose veins. But no amount of me telling it how it is will convince anyone. The proof of the pudding is always in the eating. And some nice photographs go a long way and speak louder than any statistical analysis.

So here we are. A 4 week challenge to anyone who has varicose veins and / or oedema to see if IBT will produce predictable reliable results and cause the conditions to become normal and healthy.

« Last Edit: 12/01/2009 18:05:00 by Andrew K Fletcher »
Science is continually evolving. Nothing is set in stone. Question everything and everyone. Always consider vested interests as a reason for miss-direction. But most of all explore and find answers that you are comfortable with

*

Offline Andrew K Fletcher

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • 2331
  • KIS Keep It Simple
    • View Profile
Re: WHY Operate on Varicose Veins?
« Reply #38 on: 12/01/2009 18:04:07 »
This is where it becomes truly fascinating. The heart rates were measured in 3 sleeping English bull terriers, 2 lads and a very tolerant wife while sleeping on an inclined bed and on a flat bed. The difference of 10-12 beats per minute was the same in all cases and later my own heart rate was tested and also shared the same reduction.

Respiration also changed by 3-5 breaths per minute reduction in all cases.

But circulation improves on the inclined bed. I.E People with cold hands and cold feet in bed find they are warm and do not stay cold as before. Also body temperature appears to be warmer too. This was tested against literature stats using same mouth temperature and we found that unlike flat bed rest the body temperature does not dip by 2-3 degrees at around 4am as it does with flat bedrest.

Any change in density will suffice to trigger this flow and return circulation. The point is where it takes place rather than by how much it takes place. This is difficult to address as relative environmental humidity, body temperature, air temperature vary so much. High humidity according to this theory would place a huge burden on the circulation, causing lethargy and in extreme cases circulatory collapse in all systems, including the nervous system and lymphatic system.

But this is what drives me on. Surely anyone here who is involved with science and has access to a hospital or university would be compelled to put IBT to the test?

Even if it is tested in the comfort of your own home, perhaps you would come back and tell us what changes you find. Remember my wife and I had no medical problems when we tilted our bed other than a varicose vein on my wife’s leg that ached of course.  So there’s nothing stopping anyone from coming back and adding their own experiences is there?
Science is continually evolving. Nothing is set in stone. Question everything and everyone. Always consider vested interests as a reason for miss-direction. But most of all explore and find answers that you are comfortable with

*

lyner

  • Guest
Re: WHY Operate on Varicose Veins?
« Reply #39 on: 12/01/2009 18:11:24 »
Your post, whilst interesting, does not advance the argument at all.

Comparison between Heart Output Power and 'Falling Salts Output Power':
 
A typical value for the power developed by the heart is around 1W, based on flow rate and pressure difference (neither quantities in much doubt, I suspect). The With about 0.1kg of blood flowing through the lungs per second and, assuming (generously) that the change in density by evaporation is 0.1%, this would mean that every second you would effectively get 10E-4kg of 'falling mass' of blood, falling by say 1m (on average to your lower body) per second. This corresponds to a 'power source' of 10E-3W.
Which power source is most likely to be the significant one?

The fact is, Andrew, that I have not (for a long while) objected to your reported observations. What does not make sense, are you explanations, most of which don't 'add up'.
For millennia, people have been making things happen in Medicine, Chemistry , technology and other fields. They have made things work despite not knowing why they worked. You can be pretty sure that Sir Isaac would have come to terms with relativity, (after a bit of grumbling, no doubt) because the sums fit reality better than his. Why can't you be the same as he would be?

It seems to me that an excellent explanation for your inclined bed success is that it subjects the veins to a small enough pressure to keep them the right shape and give them a chance to heal up in that shape.
Allowing them to collapse whist laying flat would not achieve that and keeping them under high pressure, standing up would just do further damage. It constitutes a mild bit of 'physio' for the vein walls.
There's a nice 'mechanical' explanation which doesn't fly in the face of any fundamental Science. You have to admit, it's a contender.

*

Offline rosy

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • 1018
  • Chemistry
    • View Profile
Re: WHY Operate on Varicose Veins?
« Reply #40 on: 12/01/2009 18:18:29 »
Quote
I fail to see how maths can help to convince a person to tilt their bed by five degrees to the horizontal and watch their varicose veins deflate and eventually return to normal looking veins. Perhaps I may be missing a point here?
Yup. Missing a point would be about right.
The calculations, based on the movements of more and less dense fluids up and down that you believe to be occuring, their changes in kinetic and gravitational potential energy, and how this compares to the required transport of sugars, oxygen, etc to all parts of the body (including the head...), would if you could show that they were consistent with reality, mean that you looked a bit less like a total crank. As I've said before on several occasions, it appears that something in what you're doing might be working in the cases you cite (although of course I don't know enough about any of the conditions you're attempting to treat to comment on the probabilities of random spontaneous remission). If you are indeed correct, you are doing people with these unpleasant and in some cases life threatening conditions a considerable disservice by persisting in espousing what all the trained scientists on this board (who are probably a reasonable test sample for scientists and medics in general) consider to be an utterly implausible theory in direct opposition to know medical data to date. The disbelief (and indeed derision) with which your theories are met may not bother you but it stands between a wider public and the application of your treatment.
An apposite quote might be one I heard recently in another context:
“It is not enough to wear the mantle of Galileo: that you be persecuted by an unkind establishment. You must also be right.” — Robert L. Park

*

Offline Bored chemist

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • 8735
    • View Profile
Re: WHY Operate on Varicose Veins?
« Reply #41 on: 12/01/2009 18:51:13 »
AKF, you seem to have missed my point, if I had said "eating oranges" instead of " watching TV" the essence of my post would have been the same.
Just because one state of affairs doesn't stop varicose veins does not mean that a different state will.
Incidentally, if gravity drove the circulation you would die if you went swimming. In water the bouyancy essentially removes gravit's effect.
Your circulation would vary wildly as you stood up or lay down. In the real wortld postural hypotension is viewed as an unusual condition- worthy of treatment.
God help you if you were upside down (and I think that, even if we don't do it now, we all did this as children.


The single clearest evidence that the heart provides circulation rather than some strange effect of gravity is

 when your heart stops you die.
End of story.
Please disregard all previous signatures.

*

Offline RD

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • 8169
    • View Profile
Re: WHY Operate on Varicose Veins?
« Reply #42 on: 12/01/2009 21:11:36 »
As I mentioned previously, photographs are not a reliable method of evaluating any changes in texture...

[attachment=6309]


Here I have digitally adjusted the contrast, but contrast can be varied by the way the subject is lit,
e.g. type and position of light source, time of day and weather if naturally lit, type of film /camera,
a nearby white wall acting as a reflector (will reduce contrast).
« Last Edit: 12/01/2009 21:23:20 by RD »

*

Offline BenV

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • 1503
    • View Profile
Re: WHY Operate on Varicose Veins?
« Reply #43 on: 12/01/2009 21:36:32 »
Andrew, I feel i need to point out again that I'm not saying that you haven't seen results, and I'm not saying anything against the idea of testing IBT.  I'm questioning your interpretation.

You've now confused me about chicks - Do chicks breathe inside an egg?  If not, your arguements don't add up.

Quote
The heart rate decreases by 10-12 beats per minute on IBT. Yet circulation is improved.
What do you mean by improved?  There's nothing out of place unless you mean the rate of blood flow is increased.

*

Offline JnA

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • 1093
  • Stunt Scientist
    • View Profile
Re: WHY Operate on Varicose Veins?
« Reply #44 on: 12/01/2009 23:33:42 »
JnA good point about the valves and structures of the veins. The photographs Alun has provided us with show that damaged valves could not have been the cause of the pressure that produced varicose veins. He should have had surgery, but fortunately decided to give IBT a chance.


What surprises me most is the simple fact that VV are caused by a breakdown of the very structures inside our veins that fight gravity.

have to say that the pics don't convince me.
And if VV aren't caused by the valves not working/meeting properly then maybe I need to go back to basic medicine.

*

Offline Andrew K Fletcher

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • 2331
  • KIS Keep It Simple
    • View Profile
Re: WHY Operate on Varicose Veins?
« Reply #45 on: 13/01/2009 09:59:00 »
2 pictures, showing Male 33 yrs Varicose vein on calf muscle prior to tilting bed to a five degree to the horizontal head up tilt.



3 pictures showing same male 34 yrs normal size vein on calf muscle with some evidence of stretch bruising from previous varicose vein after 6 months of Inclined Bed Therapy.





Science is continually evolving. Nothing is set in stone. Question everything and everyone. Always consider vested interests as a reason for miss-direction. But most of all explore and find answers that you are comfortable with

*

Offline Andrew K Fletcher

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • 2331
  • KIS Keep It Simple
    • View Profile
Re: WHY Operate on Varicose Veins?
« Reply #46 on: 13/01/2009 10:09:12 »
3 pictures taken in morning during Inclined Bed Therapy and before sitting or standing, showing male 34 yrs inner thigh and Calf varicose veins with reduced pressure inside the vein alowing them to become normal in appearance. The reduced internal pressure afforded by IBT will allow the vein to become normal and resistant to internal pressure during the day. A support / compression leg stocking was used routinely under the advice of his consultant as a temporary measure prior to varicose vein surgery. Fortunately this male is unlikely to need surgery in the future and enjoys wearing shorts instead of a support stocking on the beach with his family.






Science is continually evolving. Nothing is set in stone. Question everything and everyone. Always consider vested interests as a reason for miss-direction. But most of all explore and find answers that you are comfortable with

*

Offline Andrew K Fletcher

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • 2331
  • KIS Keep It Simple
    • View Profile
Re: WHY Operate on Varicose Veins?
« Reply #47 on: 13/01/2009 10:37:05 »
BC swimming does not remove the effects of gravity. Buoyancy is not avoiding gravity any more than freefalling from an aircraft is. Solutes will move freely inside the body and they are in effect swimming in fluids. If this were the case then my experiments would not work either as the dissolved solutes within are in fact swimming in water, yet gravity does not appear to be comprimised.

Postural Orthostatic hypotension is more commonly felt when standing from laying horizontal. When horizontal, the renal function is not performing as well as it should be and salts are stored in the body rather than in the bladder (incidentally this has been proven using a simple hydrometer) IBT on the other hand allows kidney function to remove more salts and produce denser urine in the bladder. On standing after IBT there is little to no evidence of orthostatic hypotension. Research into spinal cord injury and IBT revealed this to be the case in people with complete and incomplete spinal cord injuries. Even in cases where a person would normally black out on trying to use a standing frame, the effects of hypotension were not felt following IBT. However, prolong sitting in a wheelchair did produce hypotension on standing in a frame.

AKF, you seem to have missed my point, if I had said "eating oranges" instead of " watching TV" the essence of my post would have been the same.
Just because one state of affairs doesn't stop varicose veins does not mean that a different state will.
Incidentally, if gravity drove the circulation you would die if you went swimming. In water the bouyancy essentially removes gravit's effect.
Your circulation would vary wildly as you stood up or lay down. In the real wortld postural hypotension is viewed as an unusual condition- worthy of treatment.
God help you if you were upside down (and I think that, even if we don't do it now, we all did this as children.


The single clearest evidence that the heart provides circulation rather than some strange effect of gravity is

 when your heart stops you die.
End of story.

Science is continually evolving. Nothing is set in stone. Question everything and everyone. Always consider vested interests as a reason for miss-direction. But most of all explore and find answers that you are comfortable with

*

Offline RD

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • 8169
    • View Profile
Re: WHY Operate on Varicose Veins?
« Reply #48 on: 13/01/2009 11:26:42 »
Photos do not reliably show texture, but they do show discolouration well ...
[attachment=6328]

Note the romboid and kite-shaped purple/red macular lesions (and petechiae) : hallmarks of small-vessel vasculitis.

Your IBT guinea-pig appears to have vasculitis: this vasculopathic condition could explain varicose veins in a 33yr old.

If his varicose veins have actually improved a spontaneous remission in the vasculitis could cause that improvement.
« Last Edit: 01/03/2009 23:28:14 by RD »

*

Offline Andrew K Fletcher

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • 2331
  • KIS Keep It Simple
    • View Profile
Re: WHY Operate on Varicose Veins?
« Reply #49 on: 13/01/2009 12:14:20 »
So RD. We ask Alun if he will tilt his bed to see if his veins go flat, at the same time Old Dragon and Old Biker provide us with their own positive experiences using IBT to reduce their varicose veins and oedema, and let's not forget Karen's own observations with blood pressure changes and oedema reduction, and when they provide us with photographs showing the varicose veins and oedema has responded as predicted it would do. Let us not forget that Alun the 34 year male has had varicose veins since he was first diagnosed at 19 yrs. And we get a spontaneous remission, by which I take it you mean if he had continued to sleep flat it would have happened any how? Sorry RD, I nearly broke a rib laughing at that one.

Don't you just love that old get out clause called spontaneous remission. It has been used diligently since 1994 to avoid accepting what is blatantly an obvious improvement in a varicose vein. And yes, it is indeed a spontaneous remission caused by Inclined Bed Therapy!


Photos do not reliably show texture, but they do show discolouration well ...


Note the rhomboid and kite-shaped purple/red macular lesions (and petechiae) : hallmarks of small-vessel vasculitis.

Your IBT guinea-pig appears to have vasculitis: this vasculopathic condition could explain varicose veins in a 33yr old.

If his varicose veins have actually improved a spontaneous remission in the vasculitis could cause that improvement.
« Last Edit: 14/01/2009 12:11:47 by Andrew K Fletcher »
Science is continually evolving. Nothing is set in stone. Question everything and everyone. Always consider vested interests as a reason for miss-direction. But most of all explore and find answers that you are comfortable with