WHY Operate on Varicose Veins?

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Offline RD

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Re: WHY Operate on Varicose Veins?
« Reply #50 on: 13/01/2009 12:31:05 »
Whether or not IBT improves varicose veins, Alun has varicose veins and apparently he also has vasculitis, (which could explain why he has has varicose veins from a young age). If Alun is not aware that apparently has vasculitis then perhaps you should mention this possibility to him as it is potentially a serious, but treatable, condition.

Just spotted another red romboid lesion on Alun's calf ...

[attachment=6330]
« Last Edit: 02/03/2009 01:58:31 by RD »

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Offline Andrew K Fletcher

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Re: WHY Operate on Varicose Veins?
« Reply #51 on: 13/01/2009 13:17:48 »
Your colour enhancement of the picture of Alun's calf should reflect the same un-enhanced picture you have placed by the side of it. Hardly a comparison. I suspect if you did the same to a photograph of your own leg, we may also see odd marks. It is no surprise that there may be an underlying cause. But I doubt that cause is vasculitis. I have mentioned your concerns to Alun as you suggested.

By the way, a quick google in images for vasculitis reveals vasculitis is a red inflamation of the veins, my father had this problem along with leg ulcers, varicose veins and oedema. Dad was a window cleaner for too many years and the constant pressure from the ladder on his feet did a lot of damage.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-4-pGueL3dU

Whether or not IBT improves varicose veins, Alun has varicose veins and apparently he also has vasculitis, (which could explain why he has has varicose veins from a young age). If Alun is not aware that apparently has vasculitis then perhaps you should mention this possibility to him as it is potentially a serious, but treatable, condition.

Just spotted another red rhomboid lesion on Alun's calf ...


« Last Edit: 13/01/2009 19:40:20 by Andrew K Fletcher »
Science is continually evolving. Nothing is set in stone. Question everything and everyone. Always consider vested interests as a reason for miss-direction. But most of all explore and find answers that you are comfortable with

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Offline Andrew K Fletcher

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Re: WHY Operate on Varicose Veins?
« Reply #52 on: 13/01/2009 15:17:04 »
2 photographs of Alun's leg taken today using same camera and lighting as previous photographs, showing no obvious signs of vasculitis or indeed varicose veins. This is following 6 months of Inclined Bed Therapy.




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Offline BenV

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Re: WHY Operate on Varicose Veins?
« Reply #53 on: 13/01/2009 15:30:14 »
There's no need to post all of this in two threads, please delete the above post, as it's available here:  http://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?topic=9843.150;topicseen

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Offline Andrew K Fletcher

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Re: WHY Operate on Varicose Veins?
« Reply #54 on: 13/01/2009 19:46:16 »
The link above is following Alun's progress. These photographs were taken today and offer evidence for the study.

The same photographs show readers of this thread that Alun's leg does not resemble the enhanced colours of RD's edited version of Alun's picture. It also shows that Alun does not appear to have a problem with vasculitis. He did however recently have ringworm on the same calf area. Perhaps this is what the enhanced pictures are showing?

Sorry if you feel this to be an inappropriate post, if this explanation does not suffice let me know and I will ask Alun to provide us with some more photographs that show clearly his huge improvements in varicose veins.
Science is continually evolving. Nothing is set in stone. Question everything and everyone. Always consider vested interests as a reason for miss-direction. But most of all explore and find answers that you are comfortable with

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Offline BenV

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Re: WHY Operate on Varicose Veins?
« Reply #55 on: 13/01/2009 20:03:36 »
The problem is not the photographs, but that there are now two threads devoted to the same thing.  This isn't your fault, (the original topic was 'why not study...', but it's become a different conversation) but there's no point running the two threads.  I think we should either delete the pictures from this thread, or merge the two.  What would you prefer?

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Offline RD

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Re: WHY Operate on Varicose Veins?
« Reply #56 on: 13/01/2009 20:15:12 »
It also shows that Alun does not appear to have a problem with vasculitis.

Says the chap who had to google vasculitis a few hours ago.

Alun still has romboid & kite markings (& petechiae) ...

[attachment=6336]


He did however recently have ringworm on the same calf area.

  Vasculitis can also create ring, ellipse, disc, petal and helical lesions as well as romboid and kite.
    Ringworm would not produce romboid or kite markings: they are the hallmarks of small-vessel vasculopathy.

     Vasculitis can be relapsing-remitting.  The number of petechiae (red spots) indicate disease activity.
« Last Edit: 02/03/2009 02:00:03 by RD »

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Offline Andrew K Fletcher

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Re: WHY Operate on Varicose Veins?
« Reply #57 on: 13/01/2009 20:36:55 »
I did google vasculitis images. Anything wrong with using google? I did so because the picture you were showing of Alun's leg does not look like the typical red marks that my father exhibited along with eczema, leg ulcer etc.

The marks you have now circled are typical of varicose veins shrinking using IBT. My wife and may others have observed this bruising / darkening of the skin. Now I can see clearly what you are referring to and it is obvious Alun does not exhibit any markers for vasculitis. He did have ringworm in the same area but this is the result of stretched skin returning to itís pre stretched state.

We can argue about your informed inspection and analysis of the picture so why not comment on why you are ignoring the obvious reduction in the varicose vein and my reason for starting the thread to show just how skilful at ignoring sound reproducible results the medical profession is.

Ben,

I can't help thinking about the real reasons for hiding this thread, perhaps I may be paranoid, who knows. If we openly debate this subject are we not more likely to progress to someone repeating the results even if a ďproper controlled studyĒ is skilfully avoided for another 15 years or more.

We have a great opportunity to help people who suffer with often horrific skin conditions including vasculitis, eczema, psoriasis, oedema, ulcer, gangrene, and loss of limb and life.

Surely it is worth a little embarrassment and a touch of repetition if it eventually leads on to saving life and limb?
Science is continually evolving. Nothing is set in stone. Question everything and everyone. Always consider vested interests as a reason for miss-direction. But most of all explore and find answers that you are comfortable with

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Offline RD

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Re: WHY Operate on Varicose Veins?
« Reply #58 on: 13/01/2009 21:33:40 »
The marks you have now circled are typical of varicose veins shrinking using IBT.

If the markings you have observed are romboid or kite-shaped then the person has small-vessel vasculopathy, (vasculitis or pseudovasculitis).  Such markings are pathognomic for small-vessel vasculopathy.

Whether or not you have cured people of varicose veins, (I do not believe so), Alun and any other of your volunteers who have romboid or kite-shaped red/purple markings have vasculitis. If they have many little red spots (petechiae) the vasculitis is active, the greater the number of spots the more active the disease flare.

If you are now claiming IBT has cured vasculitis, an illness you are unfamiliar with (hence your recent google search), then why does Alun presently have a dozen red spots (petechiae) on half of his calf ?

Here is a link to the source of the vasculitis leg image I have used above
http://www.dermnetnz.org/vascular/img/vasculitis/index.html
« Last Edit: 02/03/2009 02:01:02 by RD »

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Offline BenV

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Re: WHY Operate on Varicose Veins?
« Reply #59 on: 14/01/2009 08:49:57 »
Quote
I can't help thinking about the real reasons for hiding this thread, perhaps I may be paranoid, who knows. If we openly debate this subject are we not more likely to progress to someone repeating the results even if a ďproper controlled studyĒ is skilfully avoided for another 15 years or more.

Yes, you are paranoid.  Nothing I would have done would have 'hidden' this thread, it would have still been here, but not duplicated the content of the other thread in which you are collecting your photographic evidence.  We try not to allow any other discussion to be duplicated on two treads, so why would this one be special?

Why put proper controlled study in quotation marks?  And who do you think is "skillfully" avoiding testing this?  There's no-one out to get you, or intentionally to block you with malice.


Edit - I've just thought of another angle you could follow.  It looks like people have been using inclined beds for the last 20 years or so to help with acid reflux.  It could be interesting and might give you some indicative data if these people have a different incidence of certain health problems than the population as a whole.  There's the chief issue that they all have an illness in common (acid reflux) but it looks as if there may be 20 years worth of data if you can find the people.
« Last Edit: 14/01/2009 08:58:05 by BenV »

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Offline Andrew K Fletcher

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Re: WHY Operate on Varicose Veins?
« Reply #60 on: 14/01/2009 10:21:01 »
I have not said anywhere that IBT has cured vasculitis. Show me where it was stated please?

RD, does this stand for research and development? Are you involved in trials and do you have a professional interest in varicose veins?

Alun like myself and possibly 2 thirds of the population get some spots. Iíve got a few on my back side does this mean I too have vasculitis?

http://www.london-vein-institute.com/treatments/microsclerotherapy.htm bruising and discolouring is more likely to be what you have seen.

The thing is it is irrelevant whether or not you or anyone one believes that IBT can cause varicose veins to go flat without surgery. It is a fact and fully repeatable. The problem is moving you guys forward to help put a study together and confirm it one way or another. This is good science!

Here we have a golden opportunity to improve the health and lives of millions of people. Surely setting up a simple study involving the medical profession is the right and decent way to go with this?

Yet sadly and despite countless empty words and broken promises, charities and organisations including the Multiple Sclerosis Society, The Multiple Sclerosis Resource Centre, The Foundation for Sudden Infant Deaths, The Parkinsonís Disease Society, The Royal National Institute for the Blind, The International Spinal Cord Injury Association, The Royal College Of Medicine, The Lancet, The New Scientist, Nature, Countless Universities, Countless Individuals, The Government, The NHS, NICE, US National Spinal Cord Injury Society, Royal College of Surgeons, The Royal Society, Bupa, Help the Aged, Age Concern, Exeter University, Deriford Hospital, Bristol University, Papworth, Salisbury Spinal Unit, Torbay Hospital, Stoke Mandeville Hospital's.

Hope this goes some way to helping you understand how skilful people are at avoiding such a beautiful simple free discovery that has great potential for helping mankind.
Science is continually evolving. Nothing is set in stone. Question everything and everyone. Always consider vested interests as a reason for miss-direction. But most of all explore and find answers that you are comfortable with

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Offline Andrew K Fletcher

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Re: WHY Operate on Varicose Veins?
« Reply #61 on: 14/01/2009 10:25:11 »
Ben

Sorry if I misunderstood your intentions. I have bad memories of a huge amount of information becoming frozen on the Carecure forum relating to spinal cord injuries, blocked not because the information was erroneous but because certain people on there began a flame war on the threads I tried to share the information about my research into gravity and it's effects on circulation.
I apologise for my paranoia and for doubting your intentions.


Quote
I can't help thinking about the real reasons for hiding this thread, perhaps I may be paranoid, who knows. If we openly debate this subject are we not more likely to progress to someone repeating the results even if a ďproper controlled studyĒ is skilfully avoided for another 15 years or more.

Yes, you are paranoid.  Nothing I would have done would have 'hidden' this thread, it would have still been here, but not duplicated the content of the other thread in which you are collecting your photographic evidence.  We try not to allow any other discussion to be duplicated on two treads, so why would this one be special?

Why put proper controlled study in quotation marks?  And who do you think is "skillfully" avoiding testing this?  There's no-one out to get you, or intentionally to block you with malice.


Edit - I've just thought of another angle you could follow.  It looks like people have been using inclined beds for the last 20 years or so to help with acid reflux.  It could be interesting and might give you some indicative data if these people have a different incidence of certain health problems than the population as a whole.  There's the chief issue that they all have an illness in common (acid reflux) but it looks as if there may be 20 years worth of data if you can find the people.
Science is continually evolving. Nothing is set in stone. Question everything and everyone. Always consider vested interests as a reason for miss-direction. But most of all explore and find answers that you are comfortable with

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Offline BenV

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Re: WHY Operate on Varicose Veins?
« Reply #62 on: 14/01/2009 10:57:29 »
Ben

Sorry if I misunderstood your intentions. I have bad memories of a huge amount of information becoming frozen on the Carecure forum relating to spinal cord injuries, blocked not because the information was erroneous but because certain people on there began a flame war on the threads I tried to share the information about my research into gravity and it's effects on circulation.
I apologise for my paranoia and for doubting your intentions.

That's okay Andrew, I understand your frustration.  I have nothing to gain from standing in your way, and merely wanted to keep the forum tidy.  I also have no influence on any of the institutions you listed, and so cannot help you.  I expect very few, if any, members of this forum are in a position to help, so please try not to vent your frustration on them.

Any thoughts on acid reflux - It may be worth you setting up an online survey (with no mention of the symptoms you're specifically looking at, and no mention of your hypotheses, and targeting it at people with acid reflux.  To give it the largest possible impact, you should read up on survey  design, in particular with reference to epidemiology, and reference at the bottom of the survey how it was designed.  This will show adherence to established methods.  You will also need to state in advance the statistical methods you will be using to analyse the data, and which, if any, existing databases you will be comparing to.  Again, I cannot stress how important it would be to not mention specifically what you are looking for, as this would bias the results.

Once you have a well designed survey, and a full definition of your analysis mechanism, put it online and contact as many forums, groups etc as possible, still not mentioning your intentions.  You may also find acid reflux researchers who could circulate the survey to their participants.

This will be a lot of work, and will require a great deal of research and many drafts of both your survey and analysis mechanisms, but if you can do this scientifically, you may find a greater level of acceptance from it.

You are convinced of the benefits of IBT, and the anecdotal evidence you have collected is great, but you need numbers to reinforce it.  You may find that the proportion of reflux sufferers sleeping on an incline that do have varicose veins to be the same as, or even higher than, the population as a whole, and you must be prepared to accept that evidence.  However, you may find significantly lower numbers of varicose vein sufferers, and this will greatly add to your cause.  This is the importance of setting out your statistical methods in advance, as it shows you will not be pushing the data to find the relationship that you already believe to be there.

You must be looking for the data to show that the null hypothesis (h0 - inclined sleepers are equally as likely to have varicose veins) is correct - if the null hypothesis is statistically unacceptable, then you have evidence for the alternative h1, that inclined sleepers have lower incidence of varicose veins.  If you set out to prove h1, rather than disprove h0, it will inevitably introduce a bias.

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Offline RD

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Re: WHY Operate on Varicose Veins?
« Reply #63 on: 14/01/2009 11:16:17 »
I have not said anywhere that IBT has cured vasculitis. Show me where it was stated please?

Your statment below seems to be a claim that your therapy works for vasculitis.

We have a great opportunity to help people who suffer with often horrific skin conditions including vasculitis, eczema, psoriasis, oedema, ulcer, gangrene, and loss of limb and life.
« Last Edit: 14/01/2009 11:19:48 by RD »

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Offline Andrew K Fletcher

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Re: WHY Operate on Varicose Veins?
« Reply #64 on: 14/01/2009 11:24:19 »
Does the statement say cure vasculitis?
Science is continually evolving. Nothing is set in stone. Question everything and everyone. Always consider vested interests as a reason for miss-direction. But most of all explore and find answers that you are comfortable with

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Offline Andrew K Fletcher

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Re: WHY Operate on Varicose Veins?
« Reply #65 on: 14/01/2009 12:09:11 »
Ben

When people with acid reflux are advised to incline their beds, they do so by elevating the upper half of the bed, often to a more acute angle. This makes sense with regards to acid reflux but does not produce the same results as tilting the whole bed to a five degree angle. It is rare to find people who have tilted the bed correctly. Sleeping with just the upper half of the bed tilted is same as sitting, it compresses the spine and buttocks and compromises the circulation rather than assisting it. So finding the small group of people who have tilted their beds correctly is going to prove difficult.
Science is continually evolving. Nothing is set in stone. Question everything and everyone. Always consider vested interests as a reason for miss-direction. But most of all explore and find answers that you are comfortable with

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lyner

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Re: WHY Operate on Varicose Veins?
« Reply #66 on: 14/01/2009 22:00:52 »
Does the statement say cure vasculitis?
Well, actually, in the same way as dodgy adverts say things, it does appear to be making a claim.
In any case, let's clear it up. Are you claiming it works or not? If you aren't claiming it works then why include it in your list of implied supporting evidence?

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Offline RD

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Re: WHY Operate on Varicose Veins?
« Reply #67 on: 15/01/2009 02:17:12 »
.[attachment=6343]


                                     I now know Alun's calf like the back of my hand  [:)]

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Offline Andrew K Fletcher

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WHY Operate on Varicose Veins?
« Reply #68 on: 15/01/2009 09:33:01 »
Then you do not know Alun's calf at all. The calf is on Alun's leg not on the end of your arm.

When you look at the stars at night, ill bet you can make out familiar shapes by joining the dots?


                                     I now know Alun's calf like the back of my hand  [:)]
« Last Edit: 15/01/2009 09:48:44 by Andrew K Fletcher »
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Offline Andrew K Fletcher

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WHY Operate on Varicose Veins?
« Reply #69 on: 15/01/2009 09:35:22 »
My claim is and always will be that gravity is not a force we struggle to overcome but a driving force we benefit from, providing we are correctly aligned to it. Circulation problems have been observed to greatly improve using IBT. Varicose veins have been shown on this forum have been shown to improve. So why would vasculitis be any different? Leg ulcer has also been shown to heal using IBT. Scarletina rapidly resolved over one week in a young girl who was in considerable pain with legs swollen and skin very tight. She was told it would take several months to recover, yet did so in one week using Inclined Bed Therapy. Psoriasis also responds well.

But varicose veins and oedema provide us with a sound model for showing people just how effective IBT is.

You can go on arguing the toss, trying to nit pick little holes in my words. But you nor anyone else can deny what has been put before you thanks to Alun!

What about the impressive blood pressure changes Karen reported along with reports of rapidly vanishing long standing oedema problem, only to return when she placed her bed flat?

And then thereís Alison or Old Dragon as known on this forum. She also has reported huge improvements in her oedema using inclined bed therapy.

The sad thing really is here that all it would take is a simple controlled study to wipe the smug condescending smiles of your faces. And this is precisely the reason no medical controlled study has been forthcoming because anyone reading about this research would know the outcome of such a trial before it took place. Like I said skilfully avoided.
Science is continually evolving. Nothing is set in stone. Question everything and everyone. Always consider vested interests as a reason for miss-direction. But most of all explore and find answers that you are comfortable with

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lyner

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WHY Operate on Varicose Veins?
« Reply #70 on: 15/01/2009 11:20:00 »
It is largely you, Andrew, who avoid things.
Personally, I have no argument about the effectiveness or otherwise of your treatment. Your analysis of your results leaves something to be desired because of the small samples involved but you can obviously identify some benefits. I can see how you are disappointed with the reaction of 'the establishment' but I can't blame them for the following reasons.
The problem is that, having shown an effect, to your satisfaction, you insist on explaining the phenomenon in your own private terms.
You just do not have the qualifications to pick holes in established Science. You have demonstrated this by your inability to answer detailed objections with anything else than pique and gobledegook expressions.
What do you mean when you say that gravity is the 'driving force' behind what happens? Gravity is pulling everything down toward Earth. To get some 'work' out of it, you need something to fall - which uses up Potential Energy. Until you supply enough energy (a calculable amount), you can't carry on. Your nonsensical arm waving about evaporation supplying the energy doesn't explain anything - and nor does your reference to trees, for which you have no numerical argument either.
If you can't define your terms then you shouldn't use them. Do you still not appreciate the concepts of work and energy and what it implies in your arguments? Can you really dismiss it all and yet expect to be taken seriously?

Can you really insist that the  Maths and Physics, on which the rest of your life depends and which accurate predict the outcomes of so many Scientific Experiments, just don't work for your particular field?
« Last Edit: 15/01/2009 12:17:59 by sophiecentaur »

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Offline BenV

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WHY Operate on Varicose Veins?
« Reply #71 on: 15/01/2009 11:27:16 »
My claim is and always will be that gravity is not a force we struggle to overcome but a driving force we benefit from, providing we are correctly aligned to it. Circulation problems have been observed to greatly improve using IBT. Varicose veins have been shown on this forum have been shown to improve. So why would vasculitis be any different? Leg ulcer has also been shown to heal using IBT. Scarletina rapidly resolved over one week in a young girl who was in considerable pain with legs swollen and skin very tight. She was told it would take several months to recover, yet did so in one week using Inclined Bed Therapy. Psoriasis also responds well.

But varicose veins and oedema provide us with a sound model for showing people just how effective IBT is.

You can go on arguing the toss, trying to nit pick little holes in my words. But you nor anyone else can deny what has been put before you thanks to Alun!

What about the impressive blood pressure changes Karen reported along with reports of rapidly vanishing long standing oedema problem, only to return when she placed her bed flat?

And then thereís Alison or Old Dragon as known on this forum. She also has reported huge improvements in her oedema using inclined bed therapy.

The sad thing really is here that all it would take is a simple controlled study to wipe the smug condescending smiles of your faces. And this is precisely the reason no medical controlled study has been forthcoming because anyone reading about this research would know the outcome of such a trial before it took place. Like I said skilfully avoided.


I think the issue is that you have said your therapy can "help people with... vasculitis" despite there being no evidence, not even the anecdotal evidence you have harvested for the other conditions.

As I said earlier, do not take your frustrations out on members of this forum.  Accusing people who are not convinced by your anecdotal evidence of being smug and condescending does nothing to help you.  It merely makes you sound arrogant.

You dismissed the Acid reflux idea too quickly.  These people: http://www.inclinebed.com/up-bed.htm sell bed inserts that incline the whole bed, to help acid reflux sufferers.  You should speak to them - they should have data that back up their claims, and so should be able to help you collect data that backs up yours.

Once more, no-one is "skilfully avoiding" researching this - you need better data before people will offer you the time and money it needs for a full study.  Getting annoyed about it on a forum helps no-one.

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Offline Andrew K Fletcher

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WHY Operate on Varicose Veins?
« Reply #72 on: 15/01/2009 12:25:15 »
Ben, any circulation problem should respond well to IBT. Many have and Vasculitis should be no exception to this logic. My Father had horrendous skin conditions, including leg ulcers, varicose veins, oedema, psoriasis, and obvious inflammation of the capillary vessels. The inclined bed helped tremendously to heal his ulcers and greatly improve the varicose veins, oedema and skin conditions. Pancreatic cancer and liver cancer together with infections from the hospital caused his death.

The interesting thing here was we were told he had multiple organ failure, his kidneys had ceased to function, his legs were swollen to twice their normal size, ulcers had re opened and his skin was terrible. After a head on battle with doctors and nurses at Russellís  Hall Hospital over him being kept on a flat bed, which incidentally put him in a coma, his bed was raised and his kidneys started to function, his urine became clear instead of the brown tar like urine produced just a few hours earlier. He regained consciousness, the oedema on his legs went away faster than it occurred. All witnessed by doctors and nurses, yet when I turned my back they put his bed down again inflicting the same rapid degeneration we say previously. Time and time again I fought at his bedside to keep these insane people from interfering with his bed.

Eventually I had to allow my father to pass because his conditions had deteriorated so badly through the stupidity of nurses and doctors, one of whom had shouted in a room full of patients with cancer ďYou do realise your father is dying of cancer donít youĒ Dad heard every word so did everyone on the same ward.

When I say IBT can help, I really do mean it can help, and base this claim on many previous case histories with a range of illnesses and injuries.

Varicose veins is the least complicated condition that can be shown to respond. This is the reason we need a simple study. The company that manufactures the wedge is known to me. They have piggybacked their product on the existing research from the medical profession and do not require data to back up their claims.
Science is continually evolving. Nothing is set in stone. Question everything and everyone. Always consider vested interests as a reason for miss-direction. But most of all explore and find answers that you are comfortable with

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Offline RD

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WHY Operate on Varicose Veins?
« Reply #73 on: 15/01/2009 12:41:43 »
When you look at the stars at night, ill bet you can make out familiar shapes by joining the dots?

This type of repeating pattern is not confabulation.
Cutaneous neurology is in part a mesh of linear nerves*, these define the romboid and kite shapes ...

[attachment=6357]


These lines are visible in those with small-vessel vasculopathy because there is a high concentration of small blood vessels intimate to the nerves (the epineurial blood vessels). In short if you can see pale (ischemic) linear lines forming this type of retiform pattern the person has small-vessel vasculopathy, probably vasculitis. 

[* cutaneous neurology is otherwise looping and helical. Some of the linear nerves are actually a twisted pair: like a DNA double helix]
« Last Edit: 02/03/2009 02:01:59 by RD »

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Offline BenV

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WHY Operate on Varicose Veins?
« Reply #74 on: 15/01/2009 12:57:57 »
Ben, any circulation problem should respond well to IBT. Many have and Vasculitis should be no exception to this logic.

...

When I say IBT can help, I really do mean it can help, and base this claim on many previous case histories with a range of illnesses and injuries.

Varicose veins is the least complicated condition that can be shown to respond. This is the reason we need a simple study. The company that manufactures the wedge is known to me. They have piggybacked their product on the existing research from the medical profession and do not require data to back up their claims.

I'm sorry to hear about your father, but it adds nothing to this conversation. It's simply not acceptable to say that it will help with a disease when you have no evidence (not even anecdotal), you can speculate that it might, but no further.

There's no data given on their page, or links to existing research, which I think is highly suspicious of any company selling anything that claims medical advantages.  Furthermore, your argument against looking at reflux sufferers is that they only tilt the top half of their bed, yet this company sells a device that tilts the entire bed.  I have given you some very sound advice about how to collect some data that may further your work, and you, not I, have immediately put blocks in the path.  Have you tried what I suggested?  Or are you "skilfully avoiding" looking into it?

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Offline Andrew K Fletcher

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« Reply #75 on: 15/01/2009 14:51:04 »
Ben I saw that company and several others start selling inclined beds and methods to incline them some relating to use with Parkinson's Disease and other neurological conditions. I did think about contacting the bed companies but the best I can anticipate is to gain more anecdotal testimonials.

Science is continually evolving. Nothing is set in stone. Question everything and everyone. Always consider vested interests as a reason for miss-direction. But most of all explore and find answers that you are comfortable with

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« Reply #76 on: 16/01/2009 22:07:36 »
Have we moved away from the theory?
I think we're on safer ground now.

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Offline Andrew K Fletcher

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« Reply #77 on: 17/01/2009 10:22:13 »
If you has seen and heard what I have you too would have difficulty abandoning such a simple beautiful concept. The medical profession and science community are on very unsafe ground! How many times have you heard "not fully understood" "Unknown origin" " we are not sure" uncertain, insufficient evidence to support this and that idea? Yet you keep peddling the same old same old. And always will until you die out. As you said ďSafer ground is all that matters in your safe jobs!

Have we moved away from the theory?
I think we're on safer ground now.

 The pessimist sees difficulty in every opportunity. The optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty ~ Winston Churchill
« Last Edit: 17/01/2009 11:00:29 by Andrew K Fletcher »
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« Reply #78 on: 17/01/2009 11:38:57 »
Does quoting Winston Churchill suddenly make your understanding of Science better?
As several of us have said, you have seen something which appears to work. How on earth does that make your explanation right?
There have been many treatments for diseases, throughout the centuries, which have had some  (or even a lot of) success. Would you say that the 18th Century explanations  of  how they worked were correct?
Doctors who worked on the 'humours' theory used to have satisfied patients. Does that mean they were right?
What has the fact that you feel you've had a wonderful experience got to do with Science?
Be honest about it. There are two entirely separate issues here.

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Offline Andrew K Fletcher

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« Reply #79 on: 17/01/2009 12:06:27 »
Why on earth would I have titled a bed in the first place if the theory and the results are seperate?
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« Reply #80 on: 17/01/2009 16:13:23 »
Andrew, you are a master of the non-sequiter.
You had an idea. It worked. That doesn't 'prove' that your reasoning was right.
People used to plant crops at the correct time of year even though they had no idea about the structure of the solar system. Were their ideas of Cosmology correct? No, they had a system which worked. That is all you can say about ancient agriculture. That's all you can say about your idea, too.
Why do you insist on more?

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Offline Andrew K Fletcher

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« Reply #81 on: 17/01/2009 17:51:08 »
Because a varicose vein went flat 4 weeks after we tilted our bed and the same happened to a nurse 4 weeks after she tilted her bed, the opposite way around to that which the nurse had been taught.

This fitted with the idea of a flow and return driven by solutes which would alter the pressure inside the veins to draw them in over time. Again the opposite to that which was happening on a flat bed. Or indeed on a head down tilted bed. This told me that the theory fitted with the circulation system like a glove fitted with water. Eager to find more people to test this, My mother and Late Father, both who had varicose veins also began sleeping on a five degree head up angle. Again producing similar results with varicose veins among other improvements in skin temperature, skin colour, circulation, body temperature, frequency of night time urination was decreased and most of all Mum regained the use of her nerves in the left leg after many years of being unable to move her ankle and toes and feel sensitivity below the knee she found that she could and it took a mere 4 weeks. Dadís leg ulcers healed up over many months and his skin became more normal rather than the usual raw meat looking skin we had occasionally caught a glimpse of.

But this is where it all began to get interesting. First of all not having a great deal of knowledge of physiology at the time, I began to search for a logical answer as to why Mumís nerves had responded to such a short period of IBT. Not blessed with the Internet all those years ago, the local hospital gave me permission to study in their R&D unit. But try as I may, I could not find any logical reason in the huge amount of papers that were available why this should have happened. I did however find a wholly inadequate explanation for the circulation in the nervous system. By now I had begun to take an interest in multiple sclerosis, as this looked like a pretty good condition to see if it would respond to IBT.

Many positive reports came flooding in after giving a brief talk about 1 case of progressive (non-relapsing remitting) case that had been showing considerable promise. Roger Kirk had many medical conditions including a donated kidney that was in rapid decline, but had shown remarkable improvements using IBT. Roger being an engineer could see the logic in tilting is bed after I explained how it works by giving the circulation a boost at night. Roger explained to a large audience at Kingsteignton Branch of the MS Society how much he had improved and a small group decided to give it a try.

The results were astonishing to say the least. Two ladies regained sight after becoming registered blind due to supposedly irreversible optic nerve damage. Two ophthalmologists wrote to me within the same moth asking how tilting a bed could repair damaged nerves and restore their sight. In fact just a few weeks ago during a check-up Mr Williams, the same ophthalmologist asked how things were progressing with my research and reflected back to what had happened to a lady under his care who could not only see her computer but has completed an OU degree and can legally drive a vehicle on the road without wearing any glasses. Not bad for 2 blocks of wood. This same lady had also a dropped foot problem that occasionally would be normal in the mornings but not when the humidity was high. A dehumidifier was introduced in conjunction with IBT to see if it would rectify the dropped foot problem. It did just that! Now why do you think a dehumidifier and a sloping bed could have such a profound effect on a person with multiple sclerosis? Why does MS affect more people in river valley areas than the rest of the country? Could it be humidity? Why does humidity have such a devastating effect on human physiology? Why did the ancient Egyptians tilt their beds to the same 5 degree angle all those years ago? Why did sitting up in bed rather than laying down flat help people to survive the sweating sickness in the Tudor Period? Why is a developing chick egg dependent on polarity? Could man standing up have altered the circulation in the brain and afforded greater intelligence than primates? Does brain injury respond to IBT? These questions are just a few that require their own investigations. MS is considered to be unreliable by doctors because in the early stages it can become relapsing remitting. What about spinal cord injuries? Could IBT have any influence on a complete spinal cord injury? Yes it can!

But for now, letís concentrate on varicose veins and oedema. After all varicose veins alone are costing the NHS 5-6 hundred million pounds a year.
Science is continually evolving. Nothing is set in stone. Question everything and everyone. Always consider vested interests as a reason for miss-direction. But most of all explore and find answers that you are comfortable with

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lyner

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« Reply #82 on: 17/01/2009 18:20:06 »
Do you really not see the distinction between what you have experienced and how you explain it?
I can't believe that you won't conceive an alternative explanation for what you have observed. You just blah blah  with anecdotes. What have they to do with the Science?
We would still be using Alchemy and witchcraft if 'real' Scientists had your attitude.

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Offline Andrew K Fletcher

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« Reply #83 on: 17/01/2009 18:48:07 »
This is how it bloody happened. I have altered nothing.
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« Reply #84 on: 17/01/2009 19:57:43 »
It's your EXPLANATION that's dodgy. Don't you realise?
I have not once told you it didn't happen.

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Offline Bored chemist

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« Reply #85 on: 17/01/2009 20:45:34 »
BC swimming does not remove the effects of gravity. Buoyancy is not avoiding gravity any more than freefalling from an aircraft is. Solutes will move freely inside the body and they are in effect swimming in fluids. If this were the case then my experiments would not work either as the dissolved solutes within are in fact swimming in water, yet gravity does not appear to be comprimised.

Postural Orthostatic hypotension is more commonly felt when standing from laying horizontal. When horizontal, the renal function is not performing as well as it should be and salts are stored in the body rather than in the bladder (incidentally this has been proven using a simple hydrometer) IBT on the other hand allows kidney function to remove more salts and produce denser urine in the bladder. On standing after IBT there is little to no evidence of orthostatic hypotension. Research into spinal cord injury and IBT revealed this to be the case in people with complete and incomplete spinal cord injuries. Even in cases where a person would normally black out on trying to use a standing frame, the effects of hypotension were not felt following IBT. However, prolong sitting in a wheelchair did produce hypotension on standing in a frame.

AKF, you seem to have missed my point, if I had said "eating oranges" instead of " watching TV" the essence of my post would have been the same.
Just because one state of affairs doesn't stop varicose veins does not mean that a different state will.
Incidentally, if gravity drove the circulation you would die if you went swimming. In water the bouyancy essentially removes gravit's effect.
Your circulation would vary wildly as you stood up or lay down. In the real wortld postural hypotension is viewed as an unusual condition- worthy of treatment.
God help you if you were upside down (and I think that, even if we don't do it now, we all did this as children.


The single clearest evidence that the heart provides circulation rather than some strange effect of gravity is

 when your heart stops you die.
End of story.


Still missing the point the Andrew?
Please disregard all previous signatures.

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lyner

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« Reply #86 on: 17/01/2009 23:21:42 »
Who was right, Ptolemy or Galileo? They both saw the same thing - one of them got the EXPLANATION wrong. Get it?

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Offline Andrew K Fletcher

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« Reply #87 on: 18/01/2009 10:17:49 »
He waits patiently for an alternative explanation for varicose veins and oedema improving on an inclined bed head up tilt of five degrees to the horizontal that does not involve placebo. Placebo cannot address the huge improvements reported relating to swollen veins and legs.
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« Reply #88 on: 18/01/2009 10:54:22 »
Actually, placebo can explain practically anything; the body is very complicated, you know. And it obeys all the laws of Physics, too.
And this has nothing to do with inclined beds. It has to do with the nonsense about gravity 'driving' the blood around.

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Offline Bored chemist

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« Reply #89 on: 18/01/2009 13:44:53 »
He waits patiently for an alternative explanation for varicose veins and oedema improving on an inclined bed head up tilt of five degrees to the horizontal that does not involve placebo. Placebo cannot address the huge improvements reported relating to swollen veins and legs.

Well stop "waiting patiently" and answer some of the points raised aboout the absurd idea that gravity produces the circulation of the blood.
Please disregard all previous signatures.

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Offline Andrew K Fletcher

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« Reply #90 on: 18/01/2009 14:43:53 »
My son was monitored in Plymouth Derriford Hospital Recovery room following an operation for a broken wrist. His bed was tilted the opposite way. I was told he would not recover immediately and would probably be nauseous when he does. The nurse eventually agreed to tilt the bed the other way and a prediction was made that circulation would increase, blood oxygen level would increase, his heart rate would reduce by around 10-12 beats per minute and his respiration rate by around 3-5 breaths per minute. He would awaken with no effort and would not feel nauseous. Well, the nurse was up for a challenge and agreed because I was his dad after all.

It happened exactly as predicted!

Now why do you feel heart rate and respiration rate should be reduced in both humans and animals placed on an inclined bed and sleeping? Yet circulation increases and people have lovely warm hands and feet instead of their usual icy cold hands and feet that take around an hour or more to warm up? Why does my wife have to sleep with her feet out of the bed because they get too warm now rather than being freezing cold and numb? All of this can be tested by anyone with a second hand on a clock / watch a stethoscope or indeed by feeling a pulse when someone is asleep on an inclined bed.

Yet it does not appear to be in any literature anywhere!

A simple study would be a great way to prove all of these points. But I guess vested interests prevail where 600 million pounds in providing ineffective operations is at risk.

And no placebo cannot explain a varicose vein reducing in size as the weeks go by using IBT. But I guess you had a little difficulty coming up with an alternative explanation why these changes are taking place.

Quote
True placebo effect
http://www.patient.co.uk/showdoc/40002073/
This can only be studied if an untreated group is included along with active and placebo treated groups. However, these are relatively uncommon but it has been discovered that:

    * Placebo treatment is more effective in relieving pain compared with no treatment. To achieve this, patients need to be conscious (placebo was given to sleeping patients and no difference noted).
    * Objective clinical parameters can be changed by placebo treatment, e.g. oedema and an increase in C-reactive protein level following oral surgery.
    * Physical placebos, e.g. sham acupuncture are more powerful than simple oral placebos.3
    * Topical placebo is also more effective than oral placebo, e.g. in primary varicose veins.
« Last Edit: 18/01/2009 14:56:46 by Andrew K Fletcher »
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« Reply #91 on: 18/01/2009 14:59:31 »
Always a story, never an explanation in terms of Science.

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Offline Andrew K Fletcher

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« Reply #92 on: 18/01/2009 15:07:44 »
Note: Placebo don't work while your sleeping in the quote on my last post. It's pretty obvious really. It don't explain how tilting a sleeping dog can reduce heart and respiration rate by the same amount as a sleeping human either but you love to ignore the difficult bits don't you?
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lyner

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« Reply #93 on: 18/01/2009 17:44:27 »
There are dozens of possible detailed explanations which are worth investigating. Why do you limit yourself to the first one which takes your fancy but which is not only false but clearly so.

The whole idea of work and energy is SO well established and proved that, if you understood it, you would see where your error is. I know you will react against that idea as being typical of the establishment and that you will interpret it as a personal attack - and all the rest of it blah blah blah - but there are some things which you just can't ignore.
In this case, it just isn't necessary to offer such a barmy explanation as you are proposing.
You seem to think it somehow makes you more 'worthy' because you have no formal knowledge of this field. I'm afraid it just comes across as arrogant to dismiss the work and knowledge of so many Scientists who have successful track records.
There are far more wrong answers in Science than right ones.
Do you seriously have the temerity to question such fundamental Physical ideas? What proof do you have - apart from your particular circular argument?


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Offline Andrew K Fletcher

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« Reply #94 on: 19/01/2009 09:13:56 »
Clearly false? Operations are destined to fail because no one is addressing what is causing the excess pressure in the veins, but merely slapping a sticky plaster over the problem and hoping it will go away.
Just one trial involving 50 people with varicose veins and oedema to be regularly examined for changes and provide photographs of any changes is all that is required to test this paradigm.
Yet no such study is forthcoming. Why do you think a study is avoided? I and many others who have seen this phenomenon at first hand already know what the outcome of such a study would be!
Instead people hiding behind qualifications and often substantial financial gains from maintaining the status quo prevent this simple yet powerful healing tool from entering mainstream medicine. That said, several doctors, including my own have experimented with the paradigm and observed the positive results for themselves. Several hospitals now recommend IBT to heart patients. A chain of spinal cord injury rehab units in the USA now advise patients to tilt their beds to a five degree head up angle, and have also observed the results.
Many people with multiple sclerosis benefit from sleeping on an angle and as suggested all those years ago in a paper stating that MS is not a disease but a problem with circulation it would appear that this paper was fairly accurate after all.. http://jnnp.bmj.com/cgi/rapidpdf/jnnp.2008.157164v1.pdf Be sure to check out the xray plates in the pdf file.

I have written to Professor Paolo Zamboni, and hope he will be in a position to help test this or to advise of people who are. Perhaps moving away from the UK in order to find professional ears that are open is the only way forward.

Andrew K Fletcher
 
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« Reply #95 on: 19/01/2009 09:47:41 »
Many people with multiple sclerosis benefit from sleeping on an angle and as suggested all those years ago in a
paper stating that MS is not a disease but a problem with circulation it would appear that this paper was fairly accurate after all.. http://jnnp.bmj.com/cgi/rapidpdf/jnnp.2008.157164v1.pdf Be sure to check out the xray plates in the pdf file.


Some patients diagnosed with MS experience a reduction in symptoms when they are given vasodilator medication which increases the diameter of blood vessels, this is called "relief by flush".

However this improvement is explicable as the patients being wrongly diagnosed with MS when they actually have an MS-like vasculopathic (ischemic) disorder, e.g. cerebral vasculitis.
The vasodilation temporarily increases blood flow to areas of brain which do not have an adequate blood supply because of vascular disease, (analogous to nitrate vasodilator use by a person having an attack of angina).
« Last Edit: 19/01/2009 10:50:23 by RD »

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Offline BenV

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« Reply #96 on: 19/01/2009 10:10:54 »
I'm paraphrasing here, but...

Sophie said: Why don't you look at the maths of the energy required for your mechanism to be correct?

Andrew said:  I know I'm right!  Scientists are inhuman greedy people who will not look into my hypothesis! Inclined Beds make people better!

This is a recurring issue Andrew.  I know nothing of the medical issues (but RD seems to be keeping you on your toes with that one), but your proposed mechanism doesn't add up.  I don't want to hear anything about treatments or how well people have recovered, I don't want to hear anything about scientists "avoiding your work".  Why not just answer sophie's question?
« Last Edit: 19/01/2009 10:16:27 by BenV »

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lyner

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« Reply #97 on: 19/01/2009 12:20:05 »
I don't think you ever read what I write, AKF.
Do you think that Energy and Work are irrelevant concepts inside the body? Do all the basic laws of Science stop working once you, personally, become involved in something?
Stop feeling sorry for yourself and try to think why you are not taken seriously.
It is so, so easy to believe it's all a big conspiracy. It is much harder to approach the matter with discipline and to use existing Science in an intelligent way.
Consider that you could, just possibly, be getting something wrong. If they were 100% right then your ideas should work elsewhere. Science aaims at being CONSISTENT - your ideas are not.

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« Reply #98 on: 19/01/2009 19:33:44 »
One of his ideas is consistent, it's the idea that you don't answer questions that bring doubt on your theory.
Please disregard all previous signatures.

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« Reply #99 on: 20/01/2009 11:09:25 »
Read the thread title. It's about varicose veins shrinking when a flat bed is avoided by sleeping on a five degree to the horizontal slope head higher than feet. Accomplished by using bricks, blocks, a wedge. The precious books you refer to have never identified this method of reversing varicose veins! Why would they? Gravity according to literature is a force we strive to overcome. Well all life on Earth is doing a pretty good job of overcoming the force of gravity. Trees for example appear to be inspired by it rather than struggling to overcome it. An argument that gravity is an attracting force only is a rather stupid statement donít you think? What ever happened to for every action there is an opposed and equal reaction? Water lost from the lungs with every breath we take is no exception to this rule! It is impossible not to change the density of the solutes at the lining of the lungs when water is expired unless the atmospheric humidity and temperature is equal to that in the lungs and respiratory tract. Yet Science appears to have overlooked this, just as it has overlooked the same principles of density changes at the leaf of plants and trees. However, they did attribute density changes to the oceans, which drive the Atlantic Conveyor System that powers the ocean currents and drives the Worldís Weather. And we can see a simple flow and return system lifting heated water from a simple flow and return central heating boiler system. How is that for a constant? We donít need to show an empty multiple pulling water up from the ground and filling it to show how a tree works. A tree after all grows readily filled with juxtaposed multiple conduits that each resist and oppose the pull of gravity. All we have to show is how evaporation causes the sap within to circulate and alter the pressure at the roots.
Oddly enough the same applies to the human body and indeed the giraffes long neck, something which has been mentioned before and indeed duly ignored.

When a giraffe bends its head down to drink at ground level the vessels inside the head should burst with the pressure supplied by a simple pump powerful enough to lift blood to the head. Of course this does nothing of the kind. Indeed the blood circulates meaning it does not have to lift blood to great heights, it just needs to provide sufficient pressure to effect circulation. So when the giraffe lowers itís head it must also lower the pressures. Oddly enough the same thing happens in the Brixham Experiment. As the tubes are lowered the circulation within adjusts instantly and flow is reduced. So raising the tube increases the flow and lowering the tube decreases both the flow and pressures.

When applying work and energy to the simple tubular experiment, of course we have added sat solution to the centre of the tube and provided the lift with the pulley to raise the tube to 24 metres and of course we have added water inside the tube  initially and of course we have previously boiled the water to remove dissolved gas in order to help resist cavitation. How else could we have shown this experiment, which was designed to show how a flow and return system operates at such heights. This experiment as I have said before never was intended to represent a tree or indeed a body, but was designed to show how dissolved solutes drag water molecules around a vertically suspended single open ended tube. The giraffe does not grow as an empty multiple conduit! It grows as a multiple conduit system readily filled with blood and fluids with a pump that has been shown to be of insufficient size to raise blood to the head itís head. Yet it does so every day without any effort. Have you ever seen a giraffe with varicose veins?

Inside a tree the motion is circulation and it is circulation that provides the leaves with sap, from which evaporation takes place, which we call transpiration. Transpired water does not contain solutes, although in some species some of the solutes are excreted onto the leaf surface. (Mangrove being one example). Atmospheric conditions regulate the amount of water evaporated and in the ocean, rivers and lakes plants also rely on external influences from the liquid that surrounds them. Any changes in density must apply.

1 grain of sugar or salt can provide circulation by upsetting the balance of suspended fluids. We do not have to show a large change in solute concentration for circulation to develop, because the tree or plant has equalised the pressures by offsetting one side against the other side as it grows. If we release 1 grain of salt down the phloem of a tree which we have concentrated at the leaf by evaporation, not only will that grain of dissolved salt pull on all of the water molecules within the phloem but the tension will follow through to the xylem and induce a pull in the opposite and equal direction. But something else will happen. The downward force will cause an equal increase in head of water in the xylem affording the tree with a mechanism to keep increasing itís height as shown in the U tube spirit level experiment on youtube video.

It is absolutely impossible for evaporation to take place without it causing a change in density! For every action there must be an opposite and equal reaction. Why has this not been applied to a tree? Or indeed to the fluid in the lungs? You cannot alter the density of fluid at an elevated point in a multi conduit system without causing a downward flow. It is impossible! You cannot cause a downward flow without generating an opposing and equally reacting flow be it in a single tube or in a multiple conduit system.

Now back to varicose veins as a part of our own multiple conduit system. When a bed is tilted to a head up angle the solutes inside are free to migrate through the tubes in the correct direction and in doing so can alter the pressures inside the tubes. In the artery this would not make a great deal of difference due to their resistance to stretch as they were constructed to resist the pressure from the heart, but in the vein this is a completely different scenario, the vein is elasticised and does not resist internal pressure changes well. Hence the ballooning we observe when varicose veins develop. The same must also apply when the pressure inside is reduced and this is precisely what takes place during inclined bed therapy. Here the pressure changes are not only observed while on IBT but due to the length of time the veins remain deflated the veins become used to being deflated and recover some resistance to pressure changes and become less incompetent as shown with Alunís photographs.   

« Last Edit: 20/01/2009 11:27:09 by Andrew K Fletcher »
Science is continually evolving. Nothing is set in stone. Question everything and everyone. Always consider vested interests as a reason for miss-direction. But most of all explore and find answers that you are comfortable with