How important is E=mc^2

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Offline mike03

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How important is E=mc^2
« on: 08/04/2005 17:15:11 »
Ok, so it caused a race between scientists in the US and Germany to see who could build an atomic bomb first. It caused mass devastation in Hiroshima.  It is at the centre of lots of medical devices, it's seen in televisions and smoke alarms, and is even used to explain how stars ignite, black holes are created and how Earth will end.
But how many times does the average person come in to contact with applications applying E=mc^2? and how important do you really think it is?
 

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Offline realmswalker

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Re: How important is E=mc^2
« Reply #1 on: 09/04/2005 07:43:31 »
smoke alarms? televisions? please explain..
heh ive always wanted to program out a program that more or less models all of the universes forces and being able to screw with em.
like e = mc/2
MWUAHAHA
thatd be interesting wouldnt it?
« Last Edit: 09/04/2005 07:44:50 by realmswalker »
 

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Offline mike03

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Re: How important is E=mc^2
« Reply #2 on: 09/04/2005 10:06:49 »
yeah I read a while ago in a book called E=mc^2 about how it effects smoke alarms and how the planet will end but it wasn't explained anywhere. also had a look around internet for applications of e=mc^2 and the importance of it but there seems to be amazingly little discussion of these topics. [:(]Javascript:insertsmilie('[:(]')
 

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Offline mike03

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Re: How important is E=mc^2
« Reply #3 on: 09/04/2005 10:07:49 »
yeah I read a while ago in a book called E=mc^2 about how it effects smoke alarms and how the planet will end but it wasn't explained anywhere. also had a look around internet for applications of e=mc^2 and the importance of it but there seems to be amazingly little discussion of these topics. [:(]
 

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Offline Ultima

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Re: How important is E=mc^2
« Reply #4 on: 09/04/2005 11:15:27 »
Look around you, if it wasn't for the fusion inside the Sun (mass converted to energy) there would be little energy available on Earth for life to exist... without life there are no smoke detectors [;)]

wOw the world spins?
wOw the world spins?

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Offline daveshorts

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Re: How important is E=mc^2
« Reply #5 on: 09/04/2005 13:16:59 »
I think the way smoke alarms work is by using a radioactive element (I think Americanium is common) which gives out ionising radiation, this ionises air in a chamber. If there is smoke in the air it soaks up the ions (or gets in their way). Ionised air has a reduced resistance so you can detect the amount of smoke my measuring the resistance of the air.

I guess the arguement is that you can detect the energy released in radioactive decays by measuring the weight of the origianl atom and the products, so it is related to E=mc^2

If you generalise the question to relativity rather than just E=mc^2 magnetism is a consequence of relativity, and that is used quite a lot!

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Offline gsmollin

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Re: How important is E=mc^2
« Reply #6 on: 11/04/2005 17:44:39 »
The dual ionization-chamber smoke detector contains two chambers that are both ionized by the presence of .098 microcuries of Am-241. The use of two chambers cancels out the effects of weather, temperature, aging, and any other slow changing parameters that would cause the ionization to shift in the chambers. One chamber is vented, and samples the air. The other chamber has only a very small vent, and does not respond to rapid changes in the air. When a fire releases ionized particles into the air, the sampling chamber picks this up, and its ionization increases compared to the reference chamber. An electronic circuit detects this difference and triggers the alarm.

E=mc^2 is not obviously a part of all this, but I'm sure it's there somewhere. Surely radioactive decay involves relativistic effects, and physicists use this all the time, but the chamber does not measure the radioactive decay directly. The ionization could be provided by high voltage, for instance. Am-241 is just a lot less expensive ion source.
"F = ma, E = mc^2, and you can't push a string."

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Offline daveshorts

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Re: How important is E=mc^2
« Reply #7 on: 11/04/2005 23:43:29 »
Having two chambers does help to reduce false alarms, but I am pretty sure that the smoke is inhibiting the ionisation produced by the radioactive source rather than the ionisation chamber detecting ions from the fire. There wouldn't really be any point in putting in a radioactive source if you are just detecting the ions form the fire.

There is a really good write up about ionising smoke detectors here:
http://www.sas.org/tcs/weeklyIssues/2004-07-23/feature1/

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Offline gsmollin

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Re: How important is E=mc^2
« Reply #8 on: 12/04/2005 17:40:53 »
Duh, that's what it says. The combustion products from the fire provide recombination sites for the ions in the chamber, although the referenced article does not say that.
"F = ma, E = mc^2, and you can't push a string."

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Offline Sandwalker

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Re: How important is E=mc^2
« Reply #9 on: 17/04/2005 22:32:46 »
Not important in daily life at all,

Do I need to ponder the fact that a kilo/litre of water is equivilant to 9*10^15 N or a gram 9*10^12 N

N = Newton = Unit of force = 1m/s^2

http://www.answers.com/newton&r=67

Thats a lot of energy, that I cant get to!
« Last Edit: 17/04/2005 22:37:27 by Sandwalker »
I could not join any group that would have me as a member!

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Offline Andrew K Fletcher

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Re: How important is E=mc^2
« Reply #10 on: 04/05/2005 10:35:39 »
E=MC^2 will matter when matter reaches its ultimate mass. When one realises that planets are not gradually cooling down and are in fact gradually heating up as they attract more and more Mass from space, they will eventually all become either a sun or part of another larger mass.
When the oceans connect with the earths core in significant amounts, then the true realisation of E=MC^2 will be released as the energy from more than a litre of water will be released, but I doubt if any of us will be around to witness it :)More likely we will witness the ignition of many more stars in the far flung corners of space. Jupiter should be an interesting event as it reaches critical mass, long before the Earth eventually reaches its true destiny and becomes yet another sun, viewed by people having this same discussion on another distant planet. This is precisely why volcanoes are active, and earthquakes appear to be as frequent or possibly significantly more frequent as they have ever been.

There was no massive explosion that gave birth to the earth, and it is definitely not cooling down at its core!


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Offline simeonie

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Re: How important is E=mc^2
« Reply #11 on: 04/05/2005 21:23:20 »
I am not an expert at this kind of stuff and you may be.... but I really disagree with what you have just said. I mean how could the earth become a 'sun' (I prefer to call it a 'star')? There is no way we could heat up enough for that. Also The planet would have to create a HUGE amount of explosive gas for this to happen wouldn't it?


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Offline Andrew K Fletcher

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Re: How important is E=mc^2
« Reply #12 on: 04/05/2005 21:59:26 »
The heat we are talking about here is different from the global warming type of heat. Itís the core reaction we are dealing with. For every action there has to be an opposing reaction! And the Earth or any other planet does not escape this law of physics! You simply cannot have gravity pulling in one direction without an equally opposing pushing force! This is where the heat is generated at the core, due to the fact that all of the atoms that make the earth are lined up in the same way that magnets attract each other. I.E opposites attract. This is what is generating the pull from the mass that we have named gravity. The atoms are lined up so that they are pushing against all of the other atoms on the opposite side of the planet. As the Earth gets bigger, there is an inevitable increase in the pushing force = to the attracting force. This is the fuel for the Earths core, generating more and more heat due to the friction caused by the immense crushing force of the sum total of the plantís atomic mass.

When the oceans meet with the earthís core, there will be an abundance of oxygen and hydrogen as the water reacts with the core.

Which brings us back to the amount of atomic energy available from a single litre of water. E=MC^2



"The explanation requiring the fewest assumptions is most likely to be correct."
K.I.S. "Keep it simple!"
Science is continually evolving. Nothing is set in stone. Question everything and everyone. Always consider vested interests as a reason for miss-direction. But most of all explore and find answers that you are comfortable with

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Offline simeonie

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Re: How important is E=mc^2
« Reply #13 on: 05/05/2005 10:20:10 »
Hmmm are you sure about all that? And do you mean that the more weight the earth takes in (like from meteorites etc) the hotter it becomes?
« Last Edit: 27/06/2009 14:37:36 by BenV »
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Offline Andrew K Fletcher

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Re: How important is E=mc^2
« Reply #14 on: 05/05/2005 18:11:40 »
Very sure yes! Just like you and I, and every other living species on this planet, and every other planet has an ultimate expiry date on it. The greater the mass, the more friction and resulting reaction from the core. It is erroneous of the first degree to presume that a planet can only attract. For every action there must be an opposing reaction! Any increase in mass will lead to an increase in both the pulling force and the pushing force at the core.

If you doubt that planets are growing and favour the cooling down stabilising theory. Then ask yourself why is Jupiter stripping away the surface of one of its moons?

Recently, scientists have found evidence for a new ring of dust in a backward orbit around Jupiter, based on computer simulations and data collected by a dust detector aboard the Galileo spacecraft. A faint, doughnut-shaped ring of interplanetary and interstellar dust some 1,126,000 kilometers in diameter (about 700,000 miles) appears to be orbiting the giant planet. The reason for the backward orbit of the tiny particles is not known. http://www.kidscosmos.org/kid-stuff/jupiter-facts.html

Jupiter Stats:

Metric: 1,898,700,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 kg Scientific Notation: 1.8987 x 1027 kg By Comparison: 317.82 x Earth Metric: 20.87 m/s2 English: 68.48 ft/s2 By Comparison: If you weigh 100 pounds on Earth, you would weigh 214 pounds on Jupiter.

Jupiter: Moons: Io

Looking like a giant pizza covered with melted cheese and splotches of tomato and ripe olives, Io is the most volcanically active body in the solar system. Volcanic plumes rise 300 kilometers (190 miles) above the surface, with material spewing out at nearly half the required escape velocity.

A bit larger than Earth's moon, Io is the third largest of Jupiter's moons, and the fifth one in distance from the planet.

Although Io always points the same side toward Jupiter in its orbit around the giant planet, the large moons Europa and Ganymede perturb Io's orbit into an irregularly elliptical one. Thus, in its widely varying distances from Jupiter, Io is subjected to tremendous tidal forces. These forces cause Io's surface to bulge up and down (or in and out) by as much as 100 meters (330 feet)! Compare these tides on Io's solid surface to the tides on Earth's oceans. On Earth, in the place where tides are highest, the difference between low and high tides is only 18 meters (60 feet), and this is for water, not solid ground!

This tidal pumping generates a tremendous amount of heat within Io, keeping much of its subsurface crust in liquid form, seeking any available escape route to the surface to relieve the pressure. Thus, the surface of Io is constantly renewing itself, filling in any impact craters with molten lava lakes and spreading smooth new floodplains of liquid rock. The composition of this material is not yet entirely clear, but theories suggest that it is largely molten sulfur and its compounds (which would account for the varigated coloring) or silicate rock (which would better account for the apparent temperatures, which may be too hot to be sulfur). Sulfur dioxide is the primary constituent of a thin atmosphere on Io. It has no water to speak of, unlike the other, colder Galilean moons. Data from the Galileo spacecraft indicates that an iron core may form Io's center, thus giving Io its own magnetic field.


Io's orbit, keeping it at more or less a cozy 422,000 kilometers (262,000 miles) from Jupiter, cuts across the planet's powerful magnetic lines of force, thus turning Io into a electric generator. Io can develop 400,000 volts across itself and create an electric current of 3 million amperes. This current takes the path of least resistance along Jupiter's magnetic field lines to the planet's surface, creating lightning in Jupiter's upper atmosphere.

As Jupiter rotates, it takes its magnetic field around with it, sweeping past Io and stripping off about 1,000 kilograms (1 ton) of Io's material every second! This material becomes ionized in the magnetic field and forms a doughnut-shaped cloud of intense radiation referred to as a plasma torus. Some of the ions are pulled into Jupiter's atmosphere along the magnetic lines of force and create auroras in the planet's upper atmosphere. It is the ions escaping from this torus that inflate Jupiter's magnetosphere to over twice the size we would expect.

Credit to: http://solarsystem.nasa.gov/planets/profile.cfm?Object=Jup_Io


"The explanation requiring the fewest assumptions is most likely to be correct."
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Science is continually evolving. Nothing is set in stone. Question everything and everyone. Always consider vested interests as a reason for miss-direction. But most of all explore and find answers that you are comfortable with

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Offline simeonie

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Re: How important is E=mc^2
« Reply #15 on: 05/05/2005 21:47:34 »
wow that is a long post! some of it seems kind of irelevent to what we were discussing though lolz
I never knew that the more weight the earth takes in the hotter it becomes. Well if there is a problem to do with that happening (us becoming too heavy) then instead of burying all of our rubbish in rubbish tips why don't we send it off into space?

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Offline daveshorts

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Re: How important is E=mc^2
« Reply #16 on: 05/05/2005 22:02:07 »
Andrew

You keep using every action has an equal and opposite reaction with wild abandon what it means is:
"If fred applies a force to Jill, then Jill must be applying an equal and opposite force to Fred." period, no extensions!
This means that if the earth pulls the moon then the moon must pull the Earth too, this means that as the moon orbits the earth goes in little circles too.

  You are correct that if you stand on the earth and you are not accelerating downwards the reaction force is the same as the force you are pushing down with, BUT THIS IS NOT DUE TO GRAVITY, the substance that the floor is made of acts like an increadibly strong spring and as your weight bends it a bit it will push back, if you wait a bit friction will reduce any vibrations and the floor will push up with the same force as you are pushing down with.

  If you compress something it will heat up a bit - hence why a bicycle pump gets hot when you pump it, the amount of heat energy it gains is at most the amount of work you did compressing it. But it will not continue to heat up due to some kind of mystical friction as there is nowhere for the energy to come from...

  The earth did heat up considerably while it was forming due to meteorite impacts - but this was not to do with weight or friction, but because the meteorites were going very fast and therefore when they hit the ground they released a huge amount of energy. Some of this heat is still left over as the earth is a big thing and takes a long time to cool down. I remember vaguely that it has been calculated that very roughly the heat coming out of the earth is 50% residual heat and 50% heat from nuclear decay.

However now there are hardly any meteorite impacts as 99% of the original small objects in the solar system have already hit something, so the earth gets far more energy from the sun than it does from impacts. The earth is not heating up much because it looses roughly all this energy as infra red radiation into space.

I think you are getting confused with how stars form which is indeed from a disk of material which essentially heats up due to compression and impacts eventually enough for hydrogen to fuse and it ignites forming a star. This hoowever requires very different conditions to the earth experiences now

1. A disk of material with a mass that is a good fraction of the sun's which there isn't

2. This disk to be made up of mainly hydrogen to fuse which is now blown away by the solar wind

3. In order to even start fusing a body has to be around 80 times the mass of Jupiter - and it is going to take a looooooooooong time for a few comet impacts to increase jupiter's mass that much.

I am not quite sure what the Io reference is supposed to proove but even if Jupiter collected the whole of Io Jupiter is 21000 times more massive so it ain't going to make much difference.

Andrew, scientists are by no means allways right, but if you are going to proove them wrong it would help to understand what their theories are, and it is vital to know what evidence they have collected that your theory will have to explain. To do this will require looking at books of a considerably higher level than GCSE, and the web although in parts very good, is not always very accurate.

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Offline Andrew K Fletcher

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Re: How important is E=mc^2
« Reply #17 on: 05/05/2005 22:07:18 »
And neither are the books!

"The explanation requiring the fewest assumptions is most likely to be correct."
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Science is continually evolving. Nothing is set in stone. Question everything and everyone. Always consider vested interests as a reason for miss-direction. But most of all explore and find answers that you are comfortable with

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Offline daveshorts

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Re: How important is E=mc^2
« Reply #18 on: 05/05/2005 22:47:31 »
Ok I will rephrase that - not a very good representation of current scientific thinking if that is what you mean.

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Offline Andrew K Fletcher

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Re: How important is E=mc^2
« Reply #19 on: 06/05/2005 11:16:02 »
Andrew

 
quote:
You keep using every action has an equal and opposite reaction with wild abandon what it means is:
"If fred applies a force to Jill, then Jill must be applying an equal and opposite force to Fred." period, no extensions!
This means that if the earth pulls the moon then the moon must pull the Earth too, this means that as the moon orbits the earth goes in little circles too.


And if Fred is the pulling force, Jill is the repelling force and Gravity is both!

 
quote:
You are correct that if you stand on the earth and you are not accelerating downwards the reaction force is the same as the force you are pushing down with, BUT THIS IS NOT DUE TO GRAVITY, the substance that the floor is made of acts like an increadibly strong spring and as your weight bends it a bit it will push back, if you wait a bit friction will reduce any vibrations and the floor will push up with the same force as you are pushing down with.

If you compress something it will heat up a bit - hence why a bicycle pump gets hot when you pump it, the amount of heat energy it gains is at most the amount of work you did compressing it. But it will not continue to heat up due to some kind of mystical friction as there is nowhere for the energy to come from...


I disagree with this statement completely. It is ludicrous to believe that Gravity can only attract. The forces of gravity are after all the collective pull of every atom and sub-atomic particle that makes up the Earth! But to believe that you can have an attractive force without a pushing force is illogical.

Mystical friction as you put it is currently ripping Io to bits. If you were to do a data search on high tides, due to the effects of the position of the moon and planets, you would find a staggering correlation with volcanic eruptions and Earthquakes. Following the Eclipse, I will always remember the Awe inspiring event. Shortly after it I said to my friends. There is going to be a massive Earthquake within a few days!

Now it might have been a coincidence, But Turkey suffered a massive Earthquake shortly after the eclipse.

 
quote:
The earth did heat up considerably while it was forming due to meteorite impacts - but this was not to do with weight or friction, but because the meteorites were going very fast and therefore when they hit the ground they released a huge amount of energy. Some of this heat is still left over as the earth is a big thing and takes a long time to cool down. I remember vaguely that it has been calculated that very roughly the heat coming out of the earth is 50% residual heat and 50% heat from nuclear decay.


The Earth did not heat up at all while it was forming. The process was a stable uneventful collection of atoms, formed from the decay of suns and matter thrown up due to impacts, throughout the Universe. Suns are planets that have reached critical mass!

I believe the Earth has an incalculable age, stretching back way beyond our current limited knowledge.

 
quote:
However now there are hardly any meteorite impacts as 99% of the original small objects in the solar system have already hit something, so the earth gets far more energy from the sun than it does from impacts. The earth is not heating up much because it looses roughly all this energy as infrared radiation into space.


The Earth continues to attract a massive amount of atoms and nothing will prevent its insatiable appetite for growth. The aurora Borealis and meteorites scattered in the deserts is evidence of this. To believe that the Earth is not hovering up her surrounding materials from space again is an illogical argument, when each and every day it attracts a massive amount of material. Admittedly, Jupiter is more successful at hovering the Universe than the Earth is because it has a greater Gravitational Pull! As seen by the huge meteorites that were recently viewed hitting its surface.


 
quote:
I think you are getting confused with how stars form which is indeed from a disk of material which essentially heats up due to compression and impacts eventually enough for hydrogen to fuse and it ignites forming a star. This hoowever requires very different conditions to the earth experiences now


I think you are confused, if not contaminated by what you have read in the literature.

 
quote:
1. A disk of material with a mass that is a good fraction of the sun's which there isn't

2. This disk to be made up of mainly hydrogen to fuse which is now blown away by the solar wind

3. In order to even start fusing a body has to be around 80 times the mass of Jupiter - and it is going to take a looooooooooong time for a few comet impacts to increase jupiter's mass that much.


Dave, Jupiter has all the time in the universe!


 
quote:
I am not quite sure what the Io reference is supposed to proove but even if Jupiter collected the whole of Io Jupiter is 21000 times more massive so it ain't going to make much difference.


So you did realise the significance of Io donating itís mass to Jupiter!

 
quote:
Andrew, scientists are by no means allways right, but if you are going to proove them wrong it would help to understand what their theories are, and it is vital to know what evidence they have collected that your theory will have to explain. To do this will require looking at books of a considerably higher level than GCSE, and the web although in parts very good, is not always very accurate.


Why do you keep relating to the GCSE books? Do you honestly believe that their content is the sum of my knowledge? The Web is a massive source of the most up-to-date information on a massive amount of subjects. The Web represents Freedom of thought in the real World, and Scientists are generally considered right only until they are proven to be wrong.


"The explanation requiring the fewest assumptions is most likely to be correct."
K.I.S. "Keep it simple!"
Science is continually evolving. Nothing is set in stone. Question everything and everyone. Always consider vested interests as a reason for miss-direction. But most of all explore and find answers that you are comfortable with

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Offline daveshorts

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Re: How important is E=mc^2
« Reply #20 on: 06/05/2005 13:21:07 »
quote:
And if Fred is the pulling force, Jill is the repelling force and Gravity is both!

Think about what I said  - if A pulls B abd B pulls A - they are both attracting!

quote:
I disagree with this statement completely. It is ludicrous to believe that Gravity can only attract. The forces of gravity are after all the collective pull of every atom and sub-atomic particle that makes up the Earth! But to believe that you can have an attractive force without a pushing force is illogical.


It may be ludicrous but it seems to be the way the universe works. What evidence do you have that Gravity can repell?  The only way you could possibly interpret gravity as repelling is the cosmological constant - but this is very controversial, and is only significant on scales of the universe, not the earth.

Gravity is only one of four forces one of the others of which (usually electromagnetic) provides the pushes.

Tidal effects will warm up a planet or moon, but that requires there to be something for them to act upon. In Io's case a combination of tidal effects and the radiation belts around jupiter are causing some evaporation of material.

 However the energy is coming from the rotation of the planet/moon. If Io dumped all of it's rotational energy into heat today the surface of Io would slow from about 43ms-1 to 0  which would release about 1kJ/kg of kinetic energy this is probably about enough to warm it up by roughly 1degree celcius. I assume that the heating effects are either localised or Io used to be spinning much much faster so the heat dumped in slowing down was significant and Io is still loosing this heat. The earth is bigger and spinning a bit faster so a point on the equator is moving at about 100m/s so this could release about 10kJ/kg which would be enough to warm it up by about 10celcius and this energy will be released over billions of years.

quote:
I believe the Earth has an incalculable age, stretching back way beyond our current limited knowledge.


Ok that is nice, but what is your evidence?

quote:
Dave, Jupiter has all the time in the universe!

Andrew if there is far less matter kicking around the solar system than the mass of the earth let alone Jupiter, however long you wait it will not gain much mass,,


quote:
Why do you keep relating to the GCSE books?

Because you are not taking into account many pieces of evidence that are in A-level books let alone anything more sophisticated.

If you have a hypothesis you have to check several things:

Does it explain your evidence qualititively?
Does it explain your evidence quantatively?
Is energy conserved?
Does it obey the second law of thermodynamics?

If any of the above answers are no you have to look very carefully at the hypothesis!

quote:
Scientists are generally considered right only until they are proven to be wrong.


Scientists are only right until they are prooved wrong, however if you want to come up with an alternative hypothesis, it will have to explain the evidence that has already been collected. Just saying that other hypothesies are ridiculous will not get you any respect.

Unfortunately I do not have time to turn this into another tree thread, but if you have any questions about the present understanding I will do my best to answer them.

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Offline moth

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Re: How important is E=mc^2
« Reply #21 on: 06/05/2005 15:01:29 »
quote:
Originally posted by Andrew K Fletcher, quoting Daveshorts

Andrew

And if Fred is the pulling force, Jill is the repelling force and Gravity is both!



No. Third Law pairs don't work that way, they are always equal and opposite and act on separate bodies. You can't pair up an attraction of one body with a repulsion of the other - both forces would be in the same direction and cause the bodies to accelerate away, magically creating energy.
quote:

I disagree with this statement completely. It is ludicrous to believe that Gravity can only attract. The forces of gravity are after all the collective pull of every atom and sub-atomic particle that makes up the Earth! But to believe that you can have an attractive force without a pushing force is illogical.


By what logic? From what established principle does this follow? It certainly isn't in violation of Newton's Third Law.
quote:


Mystical friction as you put it is currently ripping Io to bits. If you were to do a data search on high tides, due to the effects of the position of the moon and planets, you would find a staggering correlation with volcanic eruptions and Earthquakes. Following the Eclipse, I will always remember the Awe inspiring event. Shortly after it I said to my friends. There is going to be a massive Earthquake within a few days!


A tidal correlation with earthquakes is plausible (and google provides arguments both ways), but in tidal terms there is nothing particularly special about an eclipse.
quote:

The Earth did not heat up at all while it was forming.


This is completely contrary to the way the universe is currently observed to behave.
quote:

I believe the Earth has an incalculable age, stretching back way beyond our current limited knowledge.


Do you have any evidence to support this belief? The currently accepted figure of around 4.5 billion years is sufficient to account for the observed isotope ratios. Why assume more? Why not "Keep it simple!", because as you say isn't "The explanation requiring the fewest assumptions is most likely to be correct."?
quote:

The Earth continues to attract a massive amount of atoms and nothing will prevent its insatiable appetite for growth. The aurora Borealis and meteorites scattered in the deserts is evidence of this. To believe that the Earth is not hovering up her surrounding materials from space again is an illogical argument, when each and every day it attracts a massive amount of material.


This is a tiny ammount of mass in comparison to the earth. I doubt it is even enough to compensate for the mass-loss due to nuclear fusion in the core and mantle. (Woo! back on topic!)
quote:


Admittedly, Jupiter is more successful at hovering the Universe than the Earth is because it has a greater Gravitational Pull! As seen by the huge meteorites that were recently viewed hitting its surface.

quote:
I think you are getting confused with how stars form which is indeed from a disk of material which essentially heats up due to compression and impacts eventually enough for hydrogen to fuse and it ignites forming a star. This hoowever requires very different conditions to the earth experiences now


I think you are confused, if not contaminated by what you have read in the literature.


Tainted by reading too many careful observations of reality?
quote:


quote:
In order to even start fusing a body has to be around 80 times the mass of Jupiter - and it is going to take a looooooooooong time for a few comet impacts to increase jupiter's mass that much.

Dave, Jupiter has all the time in the universe!


Nah, only 10^14 years or so, and most of the local hydrogen is already taken. http://www.answers.com/topic/timeline-of-the-universe
quote:

quote:
I am not quite sure what the Io reference is supposed to proove but even if Jupiter collected the whole of Io Jupiter is 21000 times more massive so it ain't going to make much difference.


So you did realise the significance of Io donating itís mass to Jupiter!

The insignificance, more like.
quote:

"The explanation requiring the fewest assumptions is most likely to be correct."
K.I.S. "Keep it simple!"


Yes, please do, so long as you take care to account for the observed evidence.
 

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Re: How important is E=mc^2
« Reply #22 on: 06/05/2005 17:01:10 »
Thanks Moth, loved your post.

quote:
 
Originally posted by Andrew K Fletcher, quoting Daveshorts

Andrew

And if Fred is the pulling force, Jill is the repelling force and Gravity is both!


 
quote:
No. Third Law pairs don't work that way, they are always equal and opposite and act on separate bodies. You can't pair up an attraction of one body with a repulsion of the other - both forces would be in the same direction and cause the bodies to accelerate away, magically creating energy.


No. Did I say third law pairs anywhere? I have detailed the very principles laid out in your statement above in earlier posts, stating that gravity simply cannot be just a pulling force. If it were it would be in direct contradiction of logic. I have continually stated that the alignment of every single atomic particle is uniform on this and every other planet. The pulling force is a direct result of the alignment of the forces of the mass, all pulling and all pushing. The pushing force is counterbalanced by equal opposing pushing forces from the opposite side of the planet. All of this positive force is causing friction sufficient to maintain a molten core.



I disagree with this statement completely. It is ludicrous to believe that Gravity can only attract. The forces of gravity are after all the collective pull of every atom and sub-atomic particle that makes up the Earth! But to believe that you can have an attractive force without a pushing force is illogical.
 
 
quote:
By what logic? From what established principle does this follow? It certainly isn't in violation of Newton's Third Law.


Why does it have to follow from any established principle? You still believe the Earth is cooling down right?



Mystical friction as you put it is currently ripping Io to bits. If you were to do a data search on high tides, due to the effects of the position of the moon and planets, you would find a staggering correlation with volcanic eruptions and Earthquakes. Following the Eclipse, I will always remember the Awe inspiring event. Shortly after it I said to my friends. There is going to be a massive Earthquake within a few days!
 

 
quote:
A tidal correlation with earthquakes is plausible (and google provides arguments both ways), but in tidal terms there is nothing particularly special about an eclipse.


Well. We all heard that the tides were affected more strongly when the Eclipse occurred here in the UK. Water levels were much lower, meaning that the effects of the alignment of the planets was indeed pulling significantly more water from one coast to another. So what was happening to the Earths molten core during the same exchange of opposing forces?


The Earth did not heat up at all while it was forming.
 

 
quote:
This is completely contrary to the way the universe is currently observed to behave.


Please, you really do mean the way the universe is currently perceived to behave surely?

Do you truly and honestly believe that the current literature encompasses all that is out there? This would involve a grand unified field theory, and I have no knowledge of one ever being published that explains everything.


 

I believe the Earth has an incalculable age, stretching back way beyond our current limited knowledge.
 

 
quote:
Do you have any evidence to support this belief? The currently accepted figure of around 4.5 billion years is sufficient to account for the observed isotope ratios. Why assume more? Why not "Keep it simple!", because as you say isn't "The explanation requiring the fewest assumptions is most likely to be correct."?



Well actually carbon dating is unreliable to start with, and where do you examine the rocks, on the Earthís Surface perhaps? My theory does not rely on the age of the surface material. It relies on the age of the first atoms that became a solid, and over eons developed slowly into a planet, give or take a few meteors to speed up the growth as the gravitational force of the planet became strong enough to attract larger objects from space.


 

The Earth continues to attract a massive amount of atoms and nothing will prevent its insatiable appetite for growth. The aurora Borealis and meteorites scattered in the deserts is evidence of this. To believe that the Earth is not hovering up her surrounding materials from space again is an illogical argument, when each and every day it attracts a massive amount of material.
 

 
quote:
This is a tiny ammount of mass in comparison to the earth. I doubt it is even enough to compensate for the mass-loss due to nuclear fusion in the core and mantle. (Woo! back on topic!)


In relative terms it may be a tiny amount of mass, but mass it is nevertheless. Now I doubt there is any significant decay/loss of the planet into space, due to the effects of gravity, if any. You have just agreed that there is an inevitable increase in mass, albeit small. Net result: Earth growing at a steady rate over eons of years. Sounds fairly logical to me!




 


Admittedly, Jupiter is more successful at hovering the Universe than the Earth is because it has a greater Gravitational Pull! As seen by the huge meteorites that were recently viewed hitting its surface.


 
 
quote:
I think you are getting confused with how stars form which is indeed from a disk of material which essentially heats up due to compression and impacts eventually enough for hydrogen to fuse and it ignites forming a star. This hoowever requires very different conditions to the earth experiences now

 


I think you are confused, if not contaminated by what you have read in the literature.
 

 
quote:
Tainted by reading too many careful observations of reality?


Tainted by reading too many people interpretations of the evidence before them is what is meant by the above remark.




 
quote:
In order to even start fusing a body has to be around 80 times the mass of Jupiter - and it is going to take a looooooooooong time for a few comet impacts to increase jupiter's mass that much.


Funny that when all around us are planets much smaller than the far flung have a guess figure that someone scribed on paper.  and much less reactive, save for Io, which is having its surface eroded by Jupiter



 
quote:
The insignificance, more like.


I never said insignificant!






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Offline daveshorts

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Re: How important is E=mc^2
« Reply #23 on: 06/05/2005 20:25:23 »
quote:
No. Did I say third law pairs anywhere?

You said every action has an equal and opposite reaction, if that isn't a quote form newton's third law what is it???


quote:
I have detailed the very principles laid out in your statement above in earlier posts, stating that gravity simply cannot be just a pulling force. If it were it would be in direct contradiction of logic.


In what way?


quote:
I have continually stated that the alignment of every single atomic particle is uniform on this and every other planet. The pulling force is a direct result of the alignment of the forces of the mass, all pulling and all pushing. The pushing force is counterbalanced by equal opposing pushing forces from the opposite side of the planet. All of this positive force is causing friction sufficient to maintain a molten core.


You may have done, but what is the evidence? Can you get two uncharged objects to push each other in a vacuum? Could you come up with any other experiments that would distinguish your theory from newtonian/einsteinian gravity?

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Offline Andrew K Fletcher

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Re: How important is E=mc^2
« Reply #24 on: 07/05/2005 09:46:07 »
Dave if I did would you or anyone else accept them?

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Re: How important is E=mc^2
« Reply #25 on: 07/05/2005 10:35:40 »
In time science would certainly accept the experiment if it was repeatable, whether your exact conclusions would be accepted would depend on the experiment and what it showed.

It is not that I automatically don't believe you Andrew, it is that your conclusions are not consistent with a lot of previous observations. So unless you can provide new observations, and make your theories mathematically consistent they are not going to be accepted.

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Re: How important is E=mc^2
« Reply #26 on: 07/05/2005 14:02:13 »
The thing about time is that no one really knows how long we have got. The idea of sitting around waiting for someone else to decide whether my work deserves closer inspection or not, is something I do not have the time for! If people have to keep relying on often-archaic literature, it is not to make things fit with any new paradigm, I can assure you.

It is to make sure that academia soft jobs are zealously guarded, and that the academics donít look too stupid, when they are kicked off their self-serving pedestals! Most of these people have never contributed Jack-**** to the progression of science and are often incapable of producing an original thought. Their job is to regurgitate often-undigested bull**** on demand, and vehemently defend it from anyone who dares to question their ďAuthorityĒ???? Oddly enough, a bit like the requirements for passing any examination in a school. The pupils that ask why in class are often ridiculed and thought to be stupid. Has anyone ever considered that these pupils donít understand the science because the science is flawed?

No connection with any person on this message board intended or implied.



Andrew


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Re: How important is E=mc^2
« Reply #27 on: 07/05/2005 14:56:48 »
There admittedly are some acedemics who are as you describe, but there are also an awful lot of hard working people who would like nothing better than to change a paradigm or two (apart from anything else it will get them on TV). However for every paridigm changing experiment or theory you get several thousand experiments where someone plugged their wires in the wrong way round, lost a minus sign in their algebra or forgot an obvious alternative explanation, so you learn to be cynical about experiments that appear to give radical results especially your own.

This is why scientists are wary of people turning up with alternative hypothesis to explain how the universe works, when the current theories work extreemly accurately, and the alternative hasn't been experimentally tested, or even had back of the evelope calculations do to see whether it is self-consistent.

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Re: How important is E=mc^2
« Reply #28 on: 07/05/2005 17:28:30 »
Any intelligent fool can make things bigger, more complex, and more violent. It takes a touch of genius -- and a lot of courage -- to move in the opposite direction.
E. F. Schumacher

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Re: How important is E=mc^2
« Reply #29 on: 07/05/2005 17:47:41 »
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Mystical friction as you put it is currently ripping Io to bits. If you were to do a data search on high tides, due to the effects of the position of the moon and planets, you would find a staggering correlation with volcanic eruptions and Earthquakes. Following the Eclipse, I will always remember the Awe inspiring event. Shortly after it I said to my friends. There is going to be a massive Earthquake within a few days!

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Andrew
Several years ago a friend challenged me to try to correlate earthquakes with the position of the moon and tides.  I came up with nifty little program to calculate the longitude (though not latitude) position of the moon at any given time in the past 50 years (it could be stretched further back if need be, but earthquake information becomes far less reliable).  I calculated correlation coefficients of over 120,0000 earthquake times and positions to the longitudinal position of the moon, broken down into several categories of magnitude and depth of the earthquake. There is absolutely no correlation between position of the moon and earthquakes, with two small exceptions- shallow earthquakes less than magnitude 2 showed a very weak positive correlation and deep earthquakes between magnitude 5 and 7 actually showed a very weak negative correlation.  The moon causes, by far, the greatest tidal forces on earth.  I also looked at correlations with aphelion and perihelion, apogee and perigee of the moon and alignment of sun-moon- again with no correlation.  I have not yet tried this with volcanic eruptions, but strongly doubt that any correlation exists.

Prediction is difficult, especially the future.  -Niels Bohr
« Last Edit: 07/05/2005 17:49:53 by Bass »
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Re: How important is E=mc^2
« Reply #30 on: 07/05/2005 18:07:19 »
HI Bass

Thanks for your post.

Is there any way I can get my hands on the programme?

I would like to see if there is a correlation following  4-10 DAY period after the lunar events? Though not sure of locations of earthquakes and volcanic eruptions. Fathoming that one out is beyond me.

Only a month or so we were walking along the beech and I said to my wife at the time, that there is a lot of weight displaced to other areas, because the tide had gone out much further than I could remember. Sure enough, another earthquake hit the Indian Ocean not long after. There does seem to be a period after the event where nothing much happens, but if the tide has moved a substantial amount of water there does appear to be some kind of earth stress event.

Just re-read your post. Were you looking in specific areas on the planet in relation to the position of the moon event? Or did your programme account for the location in relation to the position of the lunar event?

Andrew
« Last Edit: 07/05/2005 18:19:45 by Andrew K Fletcher »
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Re: How important is E=mc^2
« Reply #31 on: 07/05/2005 18:55:36 »
Andrew

That program was written several years and computers ago- seems to me that I ran it as a function on an Excel spreadsheet.  I'll have a look around and see if I can find it- but can't make any promises.

What it compared was the longitudinal position of the moon with the longitudinal position of the earthquakes (plus or minus 10 degrees).  I also examined correlation with the far side of the earth and perpendicular to earth-moon axis (to examine both high and low tides).  I did not take into consideration latitudinal position, but I don't think this would have changed the correlation coefficients.  I used an NOAA database showing spring and neap tides to calculate the coefficient with sun-moon alignment, and used a NASA database to get the perihelion, aphelion, apogee and perigee times.

Earthquake data came from a USGS worldwide database showing time, magnitude, depth and position of past earthquakes- like I said, several years ago so I don't remember the specific web site.

Then I plugged all this into a massive spreadsheet- in fact, I had to break into smaller spreadsheets (magnitude and depth) because my computer at the time kept running out of memory.

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Re: How important is E=mc^2
« Reply #32 on: 07/05/2005 22:04:04 »
Can you remember whether it listed days post alignment event? Ive got a strong feeling that there is about a 4 day plus delay before anything happens.

Prior to the last eclipse visible here in the uk, I recall the local media scoffingly saying In ancient times the eclipse was thought to bring about disasters. I cringed when I heard it, as I had already mentioned this to my family. It was an amazing event, my dogs all just sat down and everything went deathly silent, then the shadow raced across the land eating up the surrounding area and triggering all the street lights to turn on. Awesome experience!

Thank you very much for your time and help, most appreciated

Andrew
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Re: How important is E=mc^2
« Reply #33 on: 07/05/2005 23:47:20 »
While I didn't test for a delay of several days, I did graphically plot the number of earthquake events vs. alignment over time (actually the spring/neap tides).  I don't recall that there was a spike in the number of earthquakes several days after spring tides (neap tides occur 7 days after spring tides).  But I would have to find my past work to check for sure.
Assuming that earthquakes happen when when the strain finally becomes greater than the rocks resistance to breakage, why do you suppose a delay of 4 or so days would have an effect on earthquakes?  My thoughts were that earth tides would increase strain or possibly decrease the vertical strain component, which could cause release- but these points would be either directly under the moon or perpendicular to the earth-moon axis.

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Offline Andrew K Fletcher

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Re: How important is E=mc^2
« Reply #34 on: 08/05/2005 09:31:25 »
Bass
I hold my hands up and don't really know for sure why the delay should occur.

One possible reason is the stability of the crust in the area over a period of time has built up some resistance to the stress, due to the compacting of the sediment and rocks.

Having used a road drill for some time to break up concrete and road surfaces, the first impact does not cause any considerable damage, and the eventual crumbling of the concrete takes some considerable vibrational impacts before it crumbles, leaving a delay from when you start the hammer to when you actually break up the concrete.

Maybe it takes a while for the vibrations to weaken the surface before the pressure caused by the shift in the force to have an effect.

It is just something I have noticed over the years and would be very interested to see if it can be backed up by historical events.

In areas that are unstable, the event should happen soon after the planetary alignments take place, whereas in areas free from relatively recent disturbances in the crust should resist the vibrations for a longer period.

If we turn to Io again, the constant pulling and releasing of Jupiterís massive gravitational force does indicate that this effect is a possibility, as it is believed that a tremendous amount of friction and heat is generated by the alignment of the forces of both the planet and the moons. And I would presume that the effects on this environment would be near instantaneous, if not constant.

Another possibility is that the sudden release of the molten core, along with the weight of the shift in the ocean mass has an effect similar to that of stretched elastic when it is released and that the constant movements of the core as it settles back to a more stable ball shape rather than a slight egg shape is responsible for the delay in the events at the crust.

Andrew


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Re: How important is E=mc^2
« Reply #35 on: 08/05/2005 20:18:31 »
Andrew
I managed to find some of the charts I put together showing number of earthquakes relative to the phases of the moon and the moon's apogee-perigee.  (Not knowing how to post a chart on this forum, I sent one of the charts to you via email).

The charts show very little correlation of earthquakes to phases of the moon.  Nor did I notice any sort of delayed reaction- the 4 days or so that you hypothesized.

 
quote:
In areas that are unstable, the event should happen soon after the planetary alignments take place, whereas in areas free from relatively recent disturbances in the crust should resist the vibrations for a longer period.


Planetary alignment has no effect on earthquakes, the tidal forces are negligible. The amount of gravitational force objects have on earth is F=GMm/d^2, where F is the force of gravity, G is the gravitational constant (6.67259 X 10^-11 N m^2/kg^2), M is the mass of the object, m is the mass of the earth, and d is the distance between the objects.  The formula for tidal forces is F=2GMm/d^3.  Distance is a more important factor in tidal forces than in gravitational forces, which is the reason the moon causes a greater tidal effect than the sun.  Distance basically negates tidal forces from the planets, even when aligned.

If the molten core changes from a sphere to an egg-shape and back again in response to lunar phases, it should produce a measurable wobble in the earth's rotation.  I'll plead ignorance, but do you know if there is a measurable change due to changes in the core?

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Re: How important is E=mc^2
« Reply #36 on: 08/05/2005 20:36:31 »
Thank you for sending the chart, I will try to digest it over the next few days.

I doubt your plea of ignorance will be heard. Like yourself, I would hope that there is a measurable wobble in the Earth's rotation,that would correlate to planetary alignment and maybe this could even be found to correlate with the normal daily lunar cycles, some stronger than others, depending on the tidal shifts? I am not sure if this has been done to any significant result but seems a logical approach to the problem.

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« Last Edit: 08/05/2005 20:38:40 by Andrew K Fletcher »
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Re: How important is E=mc^2
« Reply #37 on: 09/05/2005 14:43:43 »
Full Moon brings more earthquakes.
http://www.nasca.org.uk/Asian_disaster/asian_disaster.html#shape
An example of how potent an influence the Full Moon can be in sparking earthquakes can be seen from the Full Moon on the 24 th - 25th January. This was the first Full Moon after the South East Asia disaster and incredibly the area around the Nicobar Islands in the Indian Ocean - especially badly hit in the catastrophe - had at least 160 earthquakes above 5 magnitude in just 6 days. This included a particularly active period just after the Full Moon on the 27th of January when this vulnerable island chain was hit by over 60 earthquakes above 5 magnitude in just 24 hours.

Barely understood.

The magnetic field is a mysterious quantity that is still far from fully understood. What we do know is that the magnetic field may be connected to magma fields below the surface of the Earth so that changes to the field from celestial sources may lead to corresponding changes in magma flows. It is no coincidence that when high Solar winds cause severe geomagnetic storms there is almost always an increase in volcanic activity. Hence we believe that below ground activity with tectonic plates is heavily influenced by celestial phenomenon and also the different phases of the Earthís orbit around the Sun which in turn cause turbulent volcanic eruptions and earthquakes.

Colossal effects just becoming known.

In data released from NASA it was revealed that the magnitude 9 earthquake that devastated the Indian Ocean also had measurable effects on the shape of the Earth and also the length of each day. According to NASA the effects of this Earthquake were to say the least ďnot usualĒ. It shifted Earthís mean North Pole, slightly altered the shape of the planet, and again slightly decreased the length of each day making the Earth spin just a little faster.

For the whole of this amazing story please turn to the following link:

http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2005/10jan_earthquake. htm?list142035

Obvious celestial link.

In our main feature which followed the December catastrophe we explained a likely link between the Tsunami disaster and celestial activity involving the Full Moon at Apogee just days after the Winter Solstice. Incredibly this latest South East Asian disaster also reveals a clear link to celestial forces. March 28th was just days after the Full Moon - five days from perigee (when the Earth is closest to the Moon)  and only a week after the Spring Equinox. In addition it came at the culmination of a series of very powerful planetary alignments. This involved the close alignment of the Sun, Mercury, Venus, the Earth, the Moon, and Jupiter. In other words an incredible alignment involving around 75% of the most powerful bodies in the Solar System.

At natures mercy.

As much as anything this earthquake confirms yet again that when the planets and the Moon align in a certain way at delicate and important times of the year we become more prone to the devastating forces of the natural world. Forces not defined by the upper limits of any human devised scale, but ones that operate to an arbitrary set of natural principles that take no regard of human plight and suffering and once again show just how vulnerable we really are.

http://www.nasca.org.uk/Asian_disaster/New_Asian/new_asian.html




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Re: How important is E=mc^2
« Reply #38 on: 09/05/2005 17:26:57 »
Andrew, that's interesting, but also copyrighted material from another site. Not so nice, especially not if it creates trouble for NakedScientist...

http://www.nasca.org.uk/Asian_disaster/New_Asian/new_asian.html

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Re: How important is E=mc^2
« Reply #39 on: 09/05/2005 18:21:49 »
I notice that the first three links on the NASCA site are Atlantis, Polar Reversal (Earth flipping over), and time travel???  Sounds like their science may be a bit creative.
Using two or three incidents out of thousands to draw conclusions is statistically meaningless.  Sort of like walking up to the edge of a large forest, spotting two elm trees and deciding that all the trees in the forest are elms.  There is good earthquake data going back at least 20 years- look at all magnitude 6+ earthquakes and compare their timing to moon phases before drawing too many conclusions.

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Re: How important is E=mc^2
« Reply #40 on: 14/05/2005 15:44:13 »
http://www.astro.oma.be/ICET/icetdb/7_41.html

The above link shows a fair amount of research has been conducted into this subject.

Your data is interesting and I think with a little refinement to include only locations around equatorial regions it would show a different pattern.

Andrew

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Offline Andrew K Fletcher

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Re: How important is E=mc^2
« Reply #41 on: 19/09/2005 16:18:04 »
Just noticed that the tide has gone out much further than usual when taking dogs for a walk. The last time I saw this I made a prediction of either an earthquake or a volcanic erruption within 8 days of the event. I have been correct on numerous occasions so we shall have to wait and see whether the moon influences these events.

Andrew K Fletcher

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Offline Andrew K Fletcher

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Re: How important is E=mc^2
« Reply #42 on: 28/09/2005 19:14:28 »
Looks like I was wrong about the full moon this time, but did notice a large rumbeling noise coming from my stomach.

However, just found the following, which might interest a few of you.

Can the Moon Cause Earthquakes?

John Roach
National Geographic News

May 23, 2005
Coast dwellers are accustomed to the daily rhythm of the tides, which are primarily lulled in and out by the gentle gravitational tug of the moon. Some scientists wonder whether the moon's tugging may also influence earthquake activity.

"The same force that raises the 'tides' in the ocean also raises tides in the [Earth's]crust," said Geoff Chester, an astronomer and public affairs officer with the U.S. Naval Observatory in Washington, D.C.


Chester said the tides in the Earth's crust are subtleóon the order of a few centimeters, as opposed to the several-meter ocean tides.

"We live on the crust, so we don't really notice the deviation from what would be sort of the normal form of the geoid," he said. "So the effect is small but nonetheless there."

Full story:

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2005/05/0523_050523_moonquake.html

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Offline Andrew K Fletcher

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Re: How important is E=mc^2
« Reply #43 on: 08/10/2005 14:01:11 »
Hmmm Partial eclypse Monday October third 2005, followed by massive Earthquake

Hundreds killed in Kashmir quake  
 
Damage is extensive, officials say

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/4321490.stm

Now this may be a coincidence but I doubt it.


The quake's impact  
Pakistan says more than 1,000 people may have died in a powerful quake that also hit north India and Afghanistan.
The quake in Kashmir had a magnitude of at least 7.6. The epicentre was 80km (50 miles) north-east of Islamabad.

Pakistan's interior ministry said several villages had been wiped out. A total of 200 are confirmed dead and 600 injured in Indian-administered Kashmir.

Rescuers are trying to reach dozens trapped in a collapsed building.


 


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Offline Bass

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Re: How important is E=mc^2
« Reply #44 on: 09/10/2005 05:21:25 »
The earthquake also happened at the same time as a coronal ejection from the sun. Coincidence?
Probably not any more coincidence than an earthquake ocurring five days after a full moon.  Simple probability tells us that the odds of an earthquake striking within 8 days of a full moon are about 1/3- so, over time, we should expect that 1/3 of all earthquakes will meet Andrew's hypothesis.

I should think that this discussion belongs in geology, not an E=mc^2 thread?

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Offline Andrew K Fletcher

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Re: How important is E=mc^2
« Reply #45 on: 09/10/2005 16:24:43 »
Maybe the coronal ejection is also indicative of the full effects from planetary alignment? Further adding to the argument by supporting the theory rather than countering it.

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Offline Bass

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Re: How important is E=mc^2
« Reply #46 on: 12/10/2005 18:22:54 »
Good that we've finally gotten back to astrophysics- something closer to E=mc^2 with this thread.  I wasn't aware that coronal mass ejections were affected by planetary alingments (not that the planets were particularly aligned at the time).  
What planetary forces do you suppose caused the coronal ejection (gravity, tidal, magnetic...)?

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Offline Andrew K Fletcher

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Re: How important is E=mc^2
« Reply #47 on: 12/10/2005 21:46:15 »
One possibility is that the countering of the suns gravity by the mass of the earth and moons combined pull, could have influenced the pressure holding the gasses around the sun. This would have to correlate with the alignment allowing for any delay of effect to causal effects that were observed. I admit, I do not have any ideas as to how this could be calculated. If indeed gravity has any delay effect, then this could be a way to measure the speed of gravity, providing we can agree that this is a possibility.

Over to you Bass

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Offline Bass

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Re: How important is E=mc^2
« Reply #48 on: 12/10/2005 23:21:53 »
Except--
The combined Earth/Moon gravitational pull on the sun is constant - at least if you ignore the fact that the Earth's orbit is not circular (aphelion/perihelion)- given the relative size of the sun and the earth/moon system.
Coronal ejections aren't limited to full or new moons (even with slight delays).

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Offline Andrew K Fletcher

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Re: How important is E=mc^2
« Reply #49 on: 13/10/2005 13:10:21 »
Then the obvious place to look would be planetary alignments closer to the sun for coronal ejections.

"The explanation requiring the fewest assumptions is most likely to be correct."
K.I.S. "Keep it simple!"
Science is continually evolving. Nothing is set in stone. Question everything and everyone. Always consider vested interests as a reason for miss-direction. But most of all explore and find answers that you are comfortable with