The Naked Scientists
  • Login
  • Register
  • Podcasts
      • The Naked Scientists
      • eLife
      • Naked Genetics
      • Naked Astronomy
      • In short
      • Naked Neuroscience
      • Ask! The Naked Scientists
      • Question of the Week
      • Archive
      • Video
      • SUBSCRIBE to our Podcasts
  • Articles
      • Science News
      • Features
      • Interviews
      • Answers to Science Questions
  • Get Naked
      • Donate
      • Do an Experiment
      • Science Forum
      • Ask a Question
  • About
      • Meet the team
      • Our Sponsors
      • Site Map
      • Contact us

User menu

  • Login
  • Register
  • Home
  • Help
  • Search
  • Tags
  • Member Map
  • Recent Topics
  • Login
  • Register
  1. Naked Science Forum
  2. General Science
  3. Question of the Week
  4. QotW - 09.01.25 - How many objects can you instinctively count?
« previous next »
  • Print
Pages: [1] 2 3   Go Down

QotW - 09.01.25 - How many objects can you instinctively count?

  • 41 Replies
  • 38131 Views
  • 0 Tags

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline thedoc (OP)

  • Forum Admin
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • 510
  • Activity:
    0%
  • Thanked: 17 times
    • View Profile
QotW - 09.01.25 - How many objects can you instinctively count?
« on: 20/01/2009 17:30:41 »
Say you had three eggs on the table, by simply looking at them you can tell that there are three eggs (without counting one, two, three etc...). My question is, how many eggs or any other objects does there have to be until you have to start counting them?
Asked by Chemistry4me

                                          Hear this Question on our Podcast
Logged
 



Offline thedoc (OP)

  • Forum Admin
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • 510
  • Activity:
    0%
  • Thanked: 17 times
    • View Profile
How many objects can you instinctively count?
« Reply #1 on: 20/01/2009 17:30:41 »
We put this to Dr Roy Allen, School of Psychology, University of Aberdeen:
He’s talking about subitising and subitising is our apparent ability to instantly apprehend the quantity of a small group of objects without needing to consciously count each one individually. Unfortunately this is a research topic which has quite a heated debate about it. [img float=right]/forum/copies/RTEmagicC_Boulier1.JPG.jpg[/img]A lot of people argue that subitising as such doesn’t exist at all and that really is some form of fast counting which is conscious. It’s very difficult to research into subitising simply because you have to eliminate conscious counting. The only way to do that is to present stimuli very quickly, very short periods of time. Something like 50ms and then ask people to give their impression of the quantity of objects that they actually see. This particular person’s question is quite difficult to answer because as long as the objects are present for a long length of time there’s always the possibility that they might also be counting as well as subitising. The answer to the question is probably 3 or 4 in the true sense of subitising. We probably do this by some form of pattern recognition. There’s some correlation between quantity and particular shape. For example, a triangle – three objects is always a triangle or almost invariably a triangle; two objects always form the ends of a straight line.
« Last Edit: 20/01/2009 17:34:42 by BenV »
Logged
 

Offline syhprum

  • Naked Science Forum King!
  • ******
  • 5066
  • Activity:
    8.5%
  • Thanked: 64 times
    • View Profile
QotW - 09.01.25 - How many objects can you instinctively count?
« Reply #2 on: 20/01/2009 19:28:03 »
Round about seven seems to be my after that I have to start counting them.
Logged
syhprum
 

Offline DoctorBeaver

  • Naked Science Forum GOD!
  • *******
  • 12653
  • Activity:
    0%
  • Thanked: 3 times
  • A stitch in time would have confused Einstein.
    • View Profile
QotW - 09.01.25 - How many objects can you instinctively count?
« Reply #3 on: 20/01/2009 20:33:49 »
I have a suspicion the answer may be akin to how many quanta of information can be stored in short term memory. Most people can remember 7 items, numbers, letters, etc. However, items can be aggregated so that it appears we can store more.

If, for instance, you try to remember the numbers 0 1 2 5 9 7 1 6 8 2 1 you would probably struggle. But put in the form of a phone number - 01259 716821 - it becomes easier because you have aggregated the dialling code reducing the amount of discrete numbers from 11 to 7. It may be that we can instinctively tell when there are 7 items, but more than that would need to be counted or aggregated (i.e. seeing 2 groups of 4 items each).

I have seen no research on this subject so all this is just an educated guess (or, more accurately, a stab in the dark).
Logged
 

Offline Chemistry4me

  • Naked Science Forum King!
  • ******
  • 7705
  • Activity:
    0%
  • Thanked: 1 times
    • View Profile
QotW - 09.01.25 - How many objects can you instinctively count?
« Reply #4 on: 20/01/2009 23:37:09 »
I went to a kindergarden and asked the kids to count pens, I noticed that nearly every time they took three pens at once by just looking. For example, if I said that I wanted 12 pens, they'll take three, then another three, then another three etc... Obviously the number will change as we get older but I presume that for kids it will be around 3-4.
Logged
 



Offline dentstudent

  • Naked Science Forum King!
  • ******
  • 3146
  • Activity:
    0%
  • FOGger to the unsuspecting
    • View Profile
QotW - 09.01.25 - How many objects can you instinctively count?
« Reply #5 on: 21/01/2009 08:15:17 »
The other method would be how many are recognisable in a line. If you can recognise 7 for example, then it follows that you can recognise 7 X 7, and therefore "know" that there are 49 without counting. It's a question of the spatial distribution of the items that need counting.
Logged
 

Offline chris

  • Naked Science Forum King!
  • ******
  • 7942
  • Activity:
    6.5%
  • Thanked: 273 times
  • The Naked Scientist
    • View Profile
    • The Naked Scientists
QotW - 09.01.25 - How many objects can you instinctively count?
« Reply #6 on: 21/01/2009 09:15:02 »
Is it just that with small numbers of objects you could them so quickly that you don't notice yourself doing it; larger numbers of objects take longer to count and hence are more likely to reach consciousness?

Chris
Logged
I never forget a face, but in your case I'll make an exception - Groucho Marx - https://www.thenakedscientists.com/
 

Offline BenV

  • Naked Science Forum King!
  • ******
  • 1502
  • Activity:
    0%
  • Thanked: 3 times
    • View Profile
QotW - 09.01.25 - How many objects can you instinctively count?
« Reply #7 on: 21/01/2009 09:23:09 »
I wonder if there's a tie in with learning to count in the first place?  You can't instinctively know that there are 6 items until you have learned to count to six, so even if you can instinctively know the size of a small group, must you go through the process of mentally marking how many according to the numbers you have learned, in other words, counting them?
Logged
 

Offline dentstudent

  • Naked Science Forum King!
  • ******
  • 3146
  • Activity:
    0%
  • FOGger to the unsuspecting
    • View Profile
QotW - 09.01.25 - How many objects can you instinctively count?
« Reply #8 on: 21/01/2009 09:29:24 »
Quote from: BenV on 21/01/2009 09:23:09
I wonder if there's a tie in with learning to count in the first place?  You can't instinctively know that there are 6 items until you have learned to count to six, so even if you can instinctively know the size of a small group, must you go through the process of mentally marking how many according to the numbers you have learned, in other words, counting them?

Ben, I'm not sure that I agree with that statement. My eldest boy "knows" that there are 5 fingers on a hand without having to count to 5. Perhaps there are 2 "learning to count" methods - the first being the incremental 1,2,3,4..., the second being "people (generally) have 5 fingers per hand, so two hands are 10". I'm sure that there is a great deal of cross-over between the two methods, and that we perhaps teach counting using both without realising, but I'm not sure that you have to be able to count incrementally to be able to determine how many "fingers"  there are. Of course, this method is not without it's short-comings. There are people with fewer and more fingers than 5.
Logged
 



Offline dentstudent

  • Naked Science Forum King!
  • ******
  • 3146
  • Activity:
    0%
  • FOGger to the unsuspecting
    • View Profile
QotW - 09.01.25 - How many objects can you instinctively count?
« Reply #9 on: 21/01/2009 09:55:22 »
But I can see that you would need to know how many hands you were holding up. But then you can also learn that (most) people have 2 hands....

Logged
 

Offline Raghavendra

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • 833
  • Activity:
    0%
  • Quantum
    • View Profile
    • Raghavendra
QotW - 09.01.25 - How many objects can you instinctively count?
« Reply #10 on: 21/01/2009 11:36:35 »
i have the answer

  "It should not be small nor greater.. If it is visible it can be counted until and unless our eye is visible. Directly"

Logged
 

Offline Chemistry4me

  • Naked Science Forum King!
  • ******
  • 7705
  • Activity:
    0%
  • Thanked: 1 times
    • View Profile
QotW - 09.01.25 - How many objects can you instinctively count?
« Reply #11 on: 21/01/2009 11:41:33 »
Sorry, what was that? [???] You have the answer? [:-\] I don't think you've understood the question raghavendra   [:-\]
Logged
 

Offline DoctorBeaver

  • Naked Science Forum GOD!
  • *******
  • 12653
  • Activity:
    0%
  • Thanked: 3 times
  • A stitch in time would have confused Einstein.
    • View Profile
QotW - 09.01.25 - How many objects can you instinctively count?
« Reply #12 on: 23/01/2009 21:38:44 »
Quote from: Chemistry4me on 20/01/2009 23:37:09
I went to a kindergarden and asked the kids to count pens, I noticed that nearly every time they took three pens at once by just looking. For example, if I said that I wanted 12 pens, they'll take three, then another three, then another three etc... Obviously the number will change as we get older but I presume that for kids it will be around 3-4.

Quote from: dentstudent on 21/01/2009 08:15:17
The other method would be how many are recognisable in a line. If you can recognise 7 for example, then it follows that you can recognise 7 X 7, and therefore "know" that there are 49 without counting. It's a question of the spatial distribution of the items that need counting.

Examples of aggregation.
Logged
 



Offline RD

  • Naked Science Forum GOD!
  • *******
  • 9091
  • Activity:
    13.5%
  • Thanked: 151 times
    • View Profile
QotW - 09.01.25 - How many objects can you instinctively count?
« Reply #13 on: 24/01/2009 14:12:28 »
http://www.sciencemuseum.org.uk/antenna/neurobotics/smart/115.asp
Logged
 

Offline DoctorBeaver

  • Naked Science Forum GOD!
  • *******
  • 12653
  • Activity:
    0%
  • Thanked: 3 times
  • A stitch in time would have confused Einstein.
    • View Profile
QotW - 09.01.25 - How many objects can you instinctively count?
« Reply #14 on: 24/01/2009 14:19:02 »
I got 2 spot on (no pun intended) & a total of 5 within 5 which, apparently, makes me better than anyone in the experiment.
Logged
 

Offline RD

  • Naked Science Forum GOD!
  • *******
  • 9091
  • Activity:
    13.5%
  • Thanked: 151 times
    • View Profile
QotW - 09.01.25 - How many objects can you instinctively count?
« Reply #15 on: 24/01/2009 14:27:47 »
You're in savant league Dr B...

Quote
two savant twins to instantaneously count matches spilled on the floor (one said "111"; the other said "37, 37, 37").
http://discovermagazine.com/2002/feb/featsavant/
« Last Edit: 24/01/2009 14:50:16 by RD »
Logged
 

Offline RD

  • Naked Science Forum GOD!
  • *******
  • 9091
  • Activity:
    13.5%
  • Thanked: 151 times
    • View Profile
QotW - 09.01.25 - How many objects can you instinctively count?
« Reply #16 on: 24/01/2009 14:47:07 »
Either I'm getting in touch with my inner savant ...

 [ Invalid Attachment ]

or I'm getting better with practice.

http://www.sciencemuseum.org.uk/antenna/neurobotics/smart/115.asp

* rainman.png (12.03 kB, 479x113 - viewed 3621 times.)
« Last Edit: 24/01/2009 14:56:39 by RD »
Logged
 



Offline DoctorBeaver

  • Naked Science Forum GOD!
  • *******
  • 12653
  • Activity:
    0%
  • Thanked: 3 times
  • A stitch in time would have confused Einstein.
    • View Profile
QotW - 09.01.25 - How many objects can you instinctively count?
« Reply #17 on: 24/01/2009 14:56:49 »
Quote from: RD on 24/01/2009 14:47:07
Either I'm getting in touch with my inner savant ...

 [ Invalid Attachment ]

or I'm getting better with practice.



I think it's a case of getting used to how crowded the area is.
Logged
 

Offline Chemistry4me

  • Naked Science Forum King!
  • ******
  • 7705
  • Activity:
    0%
  • Thanked: 1 times
    • View Profile
QotW - 09.01.25 - How many objects can you instinctively count?
« Reply #18 on: 25/01/2009 01:27:40 »
Yes, that was quite tricky! [???] [???]
Logged
 

Offline RD

  • Naked Science Forum GOD!
  • *******
  • 9091
  • Activity:
    13.5%
  • Thanked: 151 times
    • View Profile
QotW - 09.01.25 - How many objects can you instinctively count?
« Reply #19 on: 25/01/2009 07:45:23 »
.
 [ Invalid Attachment ]





Yes I cheated on this test.

* cheat.png (38.12 kB, 621x468 - viewed 3894 times.)
« Last Edit: 25/01/2009 07:59:38 by RD »
Logged
 



  • Print
Pages: [1] 2 3   Go Up
« previous next »
Tags:
 

Similar topics (5)

QotW - 15.08.24 - Why do major keys sound happy and minor keys sound mournful?

Started by thedocBoard Question of the Week

Replies: 10
Views: 47034
Last post 05/04/2018 03:06:55
by Monox D. I-Fly
QotW - 08.04.06 - Better to drink wine than to drink nothing?

Started by thedocBoard Question of the Week

Replies: 33
Views: 108984
Last post 17/01/2021 17:52:40
by LaurenaS
QotW - 18.08.02 - Why are non-stick pans non-stick?

Started by Adam MurphyBoard Question of the Week

Replies: 6
Views: 42114
Last post 18/01/2020 06:33:19
by evan_au
QotW - 10.03.28 - Is a human bite worse than a dog bite?

Started by thedocBoard Question of the Week

Replies: 10
Views: 52670
Last post 13/01/2019 09:40:37
by chris
QotW - 11.03.06 - How do pain medications target pain?

Started by thedocBoard Question of the Week

Replies: 7
Views: 15781
Last post 18/01/2018 21:08:11
by evan_au
There was an error while thanking
Thanking...
  • SMF 2.0.15 | SMF © 2017, Simple Machines
    Privacy Policy
    SMFAds for Free Forums
  • Naked Science Forum ©

Page created in 0.233 seconds with 84 queries.

  • Podcasts
  • Articles
  • Get Naked
  • About
  • Contact us
  • Advertise
  • Privacy Policy
  • Subscribe to newsletter
  • We love feedback

Follow us

cambridge_logo_footer.png

©The Naked Scientists® 2000–2017 | The Naked Scientists® and Naked Science® are registered trademarks created by Dr Chris Smith. Information presented on this website is the opinion of the individual contributors and does not reflect the general views of the administrators, editors, moderators, sponsors, Cambridge University or the public at large.