How can we run out of landfill space?

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lyner

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How can we run out of landfill space?
« on: 22/01/2009 23:08:12 »
I realise that we should be cutting down on our wasteful use of resources but why is landfill volume a relevant quantity to the problem?
The amount of greenhouse gas produced depends upon what is actually put in there and on how the 'burying' process is carried out. It can't be just a matter of cubic metres, can it?

It looks to me as if the politicians have, yet again, come up with a method of measuring waste which is relatively easy to police but which really doesn't mean much at all.
What do you think?


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Offline Chemistry4me

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How can we run out of landfill space?
« Reply #1 on: 22/01/2009 23:09:28 »
Is this something going on in the UK? Can you just bring me up to date on what you're talking about?

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lyner

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How can we run out of landfill space?
« Reply #2 on: 22/01/2009 23:18:23 »
Local authorities have to pay a fine if they dump 'too much' rubbish into landfill sites. EU regulations, I believe!!

I just remembered the island of rubbish in the film 'The Ladykillers'. Brilliant.

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Offline LeeE

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« Reply #3 on: 23/01/2009 00:24:08 »
You've just reminded me of the film 'The Bed-Sitting Room'

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Offline Karsten

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« Reply #4 on: 23/01/2009 00:57:10 »
Maybe it is a problem because nobody wants to have a landfill in their town/back yard. I imagine that opening a new landfill is rather difficult due to resistance of the local population (or those pesky environmentalists). So, rationing the waste that goes in (by volume) ensures that an existing landfill may last longer. But that is just a guess.
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Offline LeeE

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« Reply #5 on: 23/01/2009 01:14:24 »
Quote
So, rationing the waste that goes in (by volume) ensures that an existing landfill may last longer. But that is just a guess.

Aw c'mon.  I think you can be a bit more positive about your deduction here;  if you fill the hole more slowly then it will take longer to fill.
...And its claws are as big as cups, and for some reason it's got a tremendous fear of stamps! And Mrs Doyle was telling me it's got magnets on its tail, so if you're made out of metal it can attach itself to you! And instead of a mouth it's got four arses!

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Offline Chemistry4me

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How can we run out of landfill space?
« Reply #6 on: 23/01/2009 07:27:32 »
How long is one of those holes supposed to last? 10 yrs? 20 yrs?

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Offline Don_1

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How can we run out of landfill space?
« Reply #7 on: 23/01/2009 08:12:46 »
I am sure that our waste and recycling regime could be far better managed. At present each local authority is doing it's own thing. What's more much of the recycling is handled in such a mish mash of ways, I seriously doubt it is doing anything to help prevent pollution.

In one area a used plastic bottle will be collected by a dedicated vehicle, in another area it will be collected along with tin/ally cans and in another it will be collected with all recycling. This bottle will be transported to the local waste/recycling transfer station. From there it will be transported to a bulk handler. From there to a sea port. From there to another sea port and on to a processing company, probably half way around the globe. The processed bottle, now in some other form, will then be shipped off to some other country for re-use in its new form. What was the environmental cost of all this?

Would it not be better if instead of the 5 vehicles we currently have here collecting our rubbish/trash we went back to just one vehicle collecting the whole lot, taking it to a processing centre for sorting into paper, ferrous & non-ferrous metals, glass, plastics and compostable by criminals serving sentences for serious crime?

Kill two birds with one stone. Efficiently sort our waste and punish crime. The waste which can be economically (both in monetary and environmental terms) dealt with treated accordingly and the rubbish incinerated.
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Offline Chemistry4me

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How can we run out of landfill space?
« Reply #8 on: 23/01/2009 08:14:34 »
taking it to a processing centre for sorting into paper, ferrous & non-ferrous metals, glass, plastics and compostable by criminals serving sentences for serious crime?
Sounds like a brilliant idea!

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Offline dentstudent

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« Reply #9 on: 23/01/2009 08:18:35 »
Isn't this the trouble with a "free market", where each council has various companies tending for the business? So you have literally hundreds of individual contracts rather than a single universal one. Another of Thatcher's great ideas...

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Offline Karsten

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How can we run out of landfill space?
« Reply #10 on: 24/01/2009 17:13:37 »
Quote
So, rationing the waste that goes in (by volume) ensures that an existing landfill may last longer. But that is just a guess.

Aw c'mon.  I think you can be a bit more positive about your deduction here;  if you fill the hole more slowly then it will take longer to fill.

Yeah, I am positive about the speed the hole will fill up, but what if the landfill is to be closed by a certain date? Will it be closed (as promised) even though it is not full?
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Offline Karsten

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« Reply #11 on: 24/01/2009 17:18:48 »
taking it to a processing centre for sorting into paper, ferrous & non-ferrous metals, glass, plastics and compostable by criminals serving sentences for serious crime?
Sounds like a brilliant idea!

Until the day the workers are less motivated than usual and don't do a great sorting job. And while they may have to sort the batch again, the amount of trash we manufacture while hoping that recycling will solve the problem of waste cannot be handled with human labor. In the USA we manufacture about 4 lbs of trash per person per day (including pre-consumer trash I think). That is roughly 1.4 billion pounds of trash per day! You cannot sort that with people who are employed/"asked" to do this.
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paul.fr

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How can we run out of landfill space?
« Reply #12 on: 24/01/2009 20:47:02 »
If we were to run out of landfill space, then maybe someone would realise I was right all this time when I said we should simply dump it down old mines and backfill them.

Why does nobody listen to anything I say? (that's a rhetorical question)

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Offline Chemistry4me

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« Reply #13 on: 25/01/2009 01:10:30 »
How long is one of those holes supposed to last? 10 yrs? 20 yrs?

(that appears to be a rhetorical question too! [:-X])

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lyner

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How can we run out of landfill space?
« Reply #14 on: 25/01/2009 11:44:27 »
I'm afraid your argument is full of holes.

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Offline Chemistry4me

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« Reply #15 on: 25/01/2009 22:08:31 »
That's rubbish!

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paul.fr

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How can we run out of landfill space?
« Reply #16 on: 26/01/2009 15:01:45 »
I'm afraid your argument is full of holes.

Not if they are backfilled!  [:P]

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Offline Mazurka

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« Reply #17 on: 26/01/2009 15:40:02 »
When people say that we are running out of landfill space they are referring to “void space” with the necessary consents for tipping.  Landfill sites need consent from both the Planning authority and the Environment Agency.  The first is to use the land for depositing waste and the other is to protect the environment from the waste. 

Historically, old quarries were used for landfill sites.  Up until the 1970’s most people burnt their waste on the fire (before plastic packaging became ubiquitous) and these tips were mainly composed of ash and glass.  More recently the “waste stream” has changed and the hazards from landfill have increased.  To help understand these hazards please excuse a digression into how a modern landfill works…

When enough waste is tipped into a site it starts to breakdown through various microbial processes.  The rate at which it breaks down is mainly controlled by how wet it is and in drier countries after an initial putrefaction very little breakdown of the waste occurs.  The “bugs” breakdown the waste via several anaerobic pathways, ultimately producing landfill gas, which is used on most sites to fuel electricity generators.  Landfill gas is around 60% methane 40% carbon dioxide with trace compounds that give it a bad smell. 

The other “product” of the bugs work (and moisture within the waste) is liquid known as leachate.  The composition of leachate is highly variable as it depends on what waste has been deposited into the site. It often has high concentrations of heavy metals, phenols, aromatic hydrocarbons etc. but is always quite acidic.   As a consequence nearly all landfill sites have been lined and capped to prevent rain and groundwater getting in and leachate and landfill gas getting out.  Engineering of sites really started to happen in the 1980’s to prevent gas migrating from them and causing problems such as explosive atmospheres in confined spaces and emission of green house gases. Landfill gas was blamed for the unscheduled demolition of a bungalow in the village of Loscoe, Derbyshire in 1986. Lining also prevents leachate from contaminating local groundwater. 

The cost of engineering a landfill site can be quite high to meet the standards of the Environment Agency and to contain the potential pollutants for a long time.  The cost is in part dictated by the type of ground on which is it built,  the ideal site would be an old clay pit (from brick making etc.) and the worst would be an old limestone quarry, as any leak of acidic leachate would eat away at the limestone and undermine the rest of the lining system. 

In the UK, following various bits of legislation from Europe, government policy is to move away from landfill and to use resources more efficiently – such as increasing the amounts and types of material reused and recycled.  As this is down to local councils, it can be a little bit patchy.  It is also subject to the vicissitudes of the global market for recyclate.

The other driver is to reduce the emission of greenhouse gases specifically CH4 – which has a higher greenhouse potential than CO2.  Having spent recent years desperately trying to maintain an adequate supply of landfill gas to fuel generators on a number of tips, I find it irritating when landfill is described as a major source of methane – it is too valuable to waste by releasing it directly into the air!  Of course, using it as a fuel converts it into CO2 – but so does incineration (sorry,  Energy From Waste as it is now called).  Where it is uneconomic for power generation, landfill gas is flared generally using systems to keep the gas at 1000C for 3 seconds or more to ensure destruction of PCB’s dioxins etc.   

However, the biggest problem with creating new sites is that no one wants them anywhere near them.  It is fully understandable why people are “NIMBY” particularly when they have often suffered from disturbance due to the mineral working that creates the void anyway – whether this is noise, dust, or lorries going passed their house.  Landfills are often bad neighbours as they can attract flies and rats as well as emitting noxious odours etc.  This leads to existing sites asking for extensions or going back over areas.  This contributes to the appearance of there mot being much landfill space left!

(sorry for length)

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lyner

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How can we run out of landfill space?
« Reply #18 on: 26/01/2009 17:42:29 »
Useful info, Mazurka. Thanks.
As for the idea of holes in the ground - well well well.

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Offline Make it Lady

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« Reply #19 on: 26/01/2009 22:29:34 »
Most of the plastic bottles are re-cycled in a plant in Cheshire. It is only the low quality plastics that go abroad. Hampshire incinerates most of its waste and uses it to make electricity.

The best thing to do is not to overconsume, compost what you can and buy things with as little packaging as you can. The really stupid thing is that although people are keen to re-cycle their waste they are not buying re-cycled stuff so there are stock piles of recycled paper!!!!
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Offline Chemistry4me

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How can we run out of landfill space?
« Reply #20 on: 27/01/2009 00:33:39 »
Where do you buy recycled stuff?

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Offline Mazurka

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« Reply #21 on: 27/01/2009 12:53:46 »
Centralised recycling does raise the issue of how much diesel is burnt hauling the recyclate to the recycling facility.  A lot of paper is used by Aylseford newsprint in Kent - but if you conduct "life cycle analysis" there is a good argument to dispose of paper locally - as it breaks down readily in landfill or burns will in incinerators.  Even better is to compress it into blocks and burn it on your own fire at home.

Following the law of unintended consequences, EU directives protecting small producers of wine and "appelation controlee" has meant that the UK is a net importer of glass.  Prior to that wine was tankered in and bottled here. The other implication of this is that we get less wine per gallon of diesel used in hauling it.

Ironically shipping recyclate to China can be considered quite efficient - the boats and shipping containers have to go back anyway and the recyclate can go to make more things to be shipped back to the west, used and disposed of...   

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Offline NobodySavedMe

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« Reply #22 on: 29/01/2009 23:02:43 »
I realise that we should be cutting down on our wasteful use of resources but why is landfill volume a relevant quantity to the problem?
The amount of greenhouse gas produced depends upon what is actually put in there and on how the 'burying' process is carried out. It can't be just a matter of cubic metres, can it?

It looks to me as if the politicians have, yet again, come up with a method of measuring waste which is relatively easy to police but which really doesn't mean much at all.
What do you think?



I can assure you there is no shortage of landfill space.

It is just propaganda designed to make you more controllable by a mass media which instigates new trends for it's own perpetuity.


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Offline Chemistry4me

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« Reply #23 on: 29/01/2009 23:05:56 »
Hmmm... propaganda aye? Sounds like Hitler (will that get me in trouble) is running the country!!!

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Offline Mazurka

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Offline Vern

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How can we run out of landfill space?
« Reply #25 on: 31/01/2009 23:42:42 »
My state of Arkansas is thinly populated and began selling access to a flat land fill area to other states a few years ago. Now that place looks like a small mountain. It's covered over with sod and has methane collectors all over. Arkansas gets lots of power from it. It is located just north east of Little Rock between Interstate 67 and Interstate 40.

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Offline NobodySavedMe

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« Reply #26 on: 03/03/2009 11:21:22 »
Maybe it is a problem because nobody wants to have a landfill in their town/back yard. I imagine that opening a new landfill is rather difficult due to resistance of the local population (or those pesky environmentalists). So, rationing the waste that goes in (by volume) ensures that an existing landfill may last longer. But that is just a guess
.

You simply dump the waste in troughs adjacent to mountains.
All mountain ranges have troughs thousands of feet deep.Vast empty chasms into which vast amounts rubbish can be dumped.

I have never ever recycled,knowing this is a totally pointless exercise, any effort by me is insignificant in the larger schemes of things.

It is just a passing media fad.

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Offline BenV

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« Reply #27 on: 03/03/2009 11:37:51 »
Maybe it is a problem because nobody wants to have a landfill in their town/back yard. I imagine that opening a new landfill is rather difficult due to resistance of the local population (or those pesky environmentalists). So, rationing the waste that goes in (by volume) ensures that an existing landfill may last longer. But that is just a guess
.

You simply dump the waste in troughs adjacent to mountains.
All mountain ranges have troughs thousands of feet deep.Vast empty chasms into which vast amounts rubbish can be dumped.
And damage the very delicate ecosystems and water flow systems in these environments?  What a stupid idea.  There's loads of space in the ocean to dump rubbish too - shall we do that?

Quote
I have never ever recycled,knowing this is a totally pointless exercise, any effort by me is insignificant in the larger schemes of things.

It is just a passing media fad.

A passing media fad for the last 20 years?  Not recycling makes you an irresponsible person.  You do realise that recycling isn't just about saving landfill space?

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Offline NobodySavedMe

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« Reply #28 on: 03/03/2009 11:46:10 »
Maybe it is a problem because nobody wants to have a landfill in their town/back yard. I imagine that opening a new landfill is rather difficult due to resistance of the local population (or those pesky environmentalists). So, rationing the waste that goes in (by volume) ensures that an existing landfill may last longer. But that is just a guess
.

You simply dump the waste in troughs adjacent to mountains.
All mountain ranges have troughs thousands of feet deep.Vast empty chasms into which vast amounts rubbish can be dumped.
And damage the very delicate ecosystems and water flow systems in these environments?  What a stupid idea.  There's loads of space in the ocean to dump rubbish too - shall we do that?

Quote
I have never ever recycled,knowing this is a totally pointless exercise, any effort by me is insignificant in the larger schemes of things.

It is just a passing media fad.

A passing media fad for the last 20 years?  Not recycling makes you an irresponsible person.  You do realise that recycling isn't just about saving landfill space?




I only became aware of this fad over the last 5 years which means it did not exist in the media in such high volumes.


No significant water flow exists in a frozen low sub-zero temperature environment as you well should know.

The ecosystems are insignificant and consist of little more than hardy lichen and algae,etc.

The chasm walls tend to isolate leakage and are very low temperature minimizing methane and toxic gas production from decay of said rubbish.

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Offline BenV

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« Reply #29 on: 03/03/2009 11:53:42 »
Maybe it is a problem because nobody wants to have a landfill in their town/back yard. I imagine that opening a new landfill is rather difficult due to resistance of the local population (or those pesky environmentalists). So, rationing the waste that goes in (by volume) ensures that an existing landfill may last longer. But that is just a guess
.

You simply dump the waste in troughs adjacent to mountains.
All mountain ranges have troughs thousands of feet deep.Vast empty chasms into which vast amounts rubbish can be dumped.
And damage the very delicate ecosystems and water flow systems in these environments?  What a stupid idea.  There's loads of space in the ocean to dump rubbish too - shall we do that?

Quote
I have never ever recycled,knowing this is a totally pointless exercise, any effort by me is insignificant in the larger schemes of things.

It is just a passing media fad.

A passing media fad for the last 20 years?  Not recycling makes you an irresponsible person.  You do realise that recycling isn't just about saving landfill space?




I only became aware of this fad over the last 5 years which means it did not exist in the media in such high volumes.
Well I've been aware of it in the media since I was in primary school, 20 years ago.  Just because you didn't notice it before doesn't make it a fad.

Quote
No significant water flow exists in a frozen low sub-zero temperature environment as you well should know.

The ecosystems are insignificant and consist of little more than hardy lichen and algae,etc.

The chasm walls tend to isolate leakage and are very low temperature minimizing methane and toxic gas production from decay of said rubbish.
So only sub-zero mountain ranges?  And the organisms that can cope with extreme environments are not important to us?  And if the decay is slower, it means a lower amount of toxins whill be reduced but for much, much longer.

This is a bit like your idea of painting all roads white - you haven't really thought it through yet you are convinced that you are right.

Far better would be to reduce the amount of waste we produce in the first place, recycle what we can and extract energy from what we have to send to landfill.

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lyner

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« Reply #30 on: 03/03/2009 23:24:12 »

I have never ever recycled,knowing this is a totally pointless exercise, any effort by me is insignificant in the larger schemes of things.

Somehow, that doesn't surprise me.

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Offline Karsten

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How can we run out of landfill space?
« Reply #31 on: 03/03/2009 23:38:33 »
Far better would be to reduce the amount of waste we produce in the first place, recycle what we can and extract energy from what we have to send to landfill.

That is exactly it: What really matters is not wasting resources and materials. And by all means recycle glass and aluminum/aluminium. This is where it makes a lot of sense from an energy point of view. I really wish people would throw out less. In the USA most people think that recycling solves all problems. It makes the consumption of over-packaged products easier. People tend to forget that it takes energy and resources to recycle. Often more than you gain or save. With the exception of glass and aluminum.

But, extracting energy from waste (by burning it I assume)? Does not sound healthy.
« Last Edit: 03/03/2009 23:41:16 by Karsten »
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Offline Damo the Optics Monkey

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« Reply #32 on: 04/03/2009 07:55:20 »
some objects can be creatively reused.  I am make a spectroscope from an old CD and other materials
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Offline Mazurka

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« Reply #33 on: 04/03/2009 10:56:37 »
The Waste Hierarchy (that technically is the basis of UK policy)is
Reduce
Reuse 
Recycle
Disposal (whether incineration or landfill)

Whilst I disagree that recycling etc is pointless although agree it is not the panacea to waste probelms - the best way to not have waste in a landfill rot is not low temperature - as the bugs that break down the waste generate considerable heat - it is to keep the waste dry.

 

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Offline NobodySavedMe

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« Reply #34 on: 04/03/2009 22:33:31 »
Far better would be to reduce the amount of waste we produce in the first place, recycle what we can and extract energy from what we have to send to landfill.

That is exactly it: What really matters is not wasting resources and materials. And by all means recycle glass and aluminum/aluminium. This is where it makes a lot of sense from an energy point of view. I really wish people would throw out less. In the USA most people think that recycling solves all problems. It makes the consumption of over-packaged products easier. People tend to forget that it takes energy and resources to recycle. Often more than you gain or save. With the exception of glass and aluminum.

But, extracting energy from waste (by burning it I assume)? Does not sound healthy.

The planet's  size/volume compared to the amount of waste produced is huge.

The concerns expressed are of a a leisurely disposition

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Offline Karsten

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« Reply #35 on: 05/03/2009 00:59:01 »
Far better would be to reduce the amount of waste we produce in the first place, recycle what we can and extract energy from what we have to send to landfill.

That is exactly it: What really matters is not wasting resources and materials. And by all means recycle glass and aluminum/aluminium. This is where it makes a lot of sense from an energy point of view. I really wish people would throw out less. In the USA most people think that recycling solves all problems. It makes the consumption of over-packaged products easier. People tend to forget that it takes energy and resources to recycle. Often more than you gain or save. With the exception of glass and aluminum.

But, extracting energy from waste (by burning it I assume)? Does not sound healthy.

The planet's  size/volume compared to the amount of waste produced is huge.

The concerns expressed are of a a leisurely disposition

You may have noticed that humans are NOT using the planet's volume but rather it's surface. To add to that, only a portion of this surface is not under water. Of that land surface only a fraction can be used comfortably and without the help of technology. The atmosphere is rather thin if you look at the big picture. Burning trash results in some of the most toxic substances the world has seen in the air, water, and soil. While it is completely true that our planet is huge in comparison to the VOLUME of trash produced, this statement neglect to see that our living space is limited, getting smaller all the time, and does not consider the QUALITY of the trash or toxic by-products.

Leisurly disposition = display laziness

My concerns reflect laziness? I would say that not worrying about what humans do is a reflection of laziness.  I would say that your refusal to recycle anything is a reflection of a lazy attitude. I would say that it is lazy to blindly and with little worry accept that it will be all OK.

But maybe your comment was not directed at what I wrote. It seems like this, but it makes no sense. I am willing to err on the side of caution. Please explain your rationale.
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lyner

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« Reply #36 on: 05/03/2009 11:06:30 »
NSM
Quote
The planet's  size/volume compared to the amount of waste produced is huge.
Another sweeping statement. You may as well compare the amount of waste produced with the mass of the Solar System. What counts is the effect on the bit we actually inhabit. Without some degree of care, the environment would / will have unsafe levels of all sorts of compounds.
Also, the valleys between mountains will, with very few exceptions, have a lot of water runoff, due to rain (which tends to fall on mountains). That water can leach unspecified grot, from anything dumped there, into rivers which will then arrive back on our back doorsteps. Is that likely to be a suitable solution?
Why not cut down on grand statements and start thinking a bit more intelligently. Perhaps you could do a few more "elementary calculations".
« Last Edit: 05/03/2009 11:10:32 by sophiecentaur »

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Offline NobodySavedMe

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« Reply #37 on: 05/03/2009 11:10:22 »


"You may have noticed that humans are NOT using the planet's volume but rather it's surface"
.

How do you explain skyscrapers and multi story houses and tall buildings and mining and basements?

Elementary calculations indicate what i said earlier that mountain chasms and troughs are more then capable of absorbing all the waste produced for the next 10000 years with plenty of room to spare.

They are the best places to dump all waste as the low temperatures solidify and inactivate the waste as is well known low temperatures slow down multiple chemical reactions and production of methane and other toxic wastes which leak into the water table.

Your much vaunted concern about the ecology of a few micro organisms in sub zero mountain chasms is irrelevant compared to the ecological damage caused by cutting vast areas of forestry harbouring vastly more life forms.

Are you worried when you walk you are squashing/killing micro organisms ?

A additional,but very insignificant,benefit is that it would level the land at these places and reduce the distance which foolish mountain climbers would fall when they lose their grip.I have no sympathy for these people as they seem to be adrenalin junkies,jaded with life and putting other people,like rescuers,at risk for their own selfish adrenalin drug rush.
« Last Edit: 05/03/2009 11:11:55 by NobodySavedMe »

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lyner

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« Reply #38 on: 05/03/2009 15:12:42 »
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How do you explain skyscrapers and multi story houses and tall buildings and mining and basements?
What sort of percentage of the radius of the Earth does a skyscraper or deep mine represent? By your argument, when you walk upright, you head can't be considered as being on the surface.

On mountains that are  enough for your 'scheme' there is still ample precipitation. Have you heard of glaciers? They may be a bit slow but they transfer the contents of high valleys down to the bottom and then they melt - delivering a load of the rubbish you plan to put up there. Bearing in mind the mass of snow / ice, could you restrain them?. Why do you think these high valleys are not used for storing nuclear waste? People have actually thought about the options, already.

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Offline Mazurka

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« Reply #39 on: 05/03/2009 17:17:40 »
Notwithstanding the overall wrongness of the concept, let alone the cost (financially and environmentally) of hauling all our waste into permanently frozen mountains;

The radius of the earth is around 6400km.  Deepest mine 3.5km  Tallest tower 800m.  Mathematically human activity amounts to 0.07% of the earths radius

I would also like to point out that as a member of a UK Mountain Rescue Team, I voluntarily rescue people for my own selfish adrenaline drug rush [:P]

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Offline Karsten

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« Reply #40 on: 05/03/2009 20:44:58 »
The radius of the earth is around 6400km.  Deepest mine 3.5km  Tallest tower 800m.  Mathematically human activity amounts to 0.07% of the earths radius

Thank you. I was hoping someone could come up with that number. I knew it would be ridiculously low. For all practical purposes we inhabit the surface.
I got annoyed with looking
at my own signature

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Offline Karsten

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« Reply #41 on: 05/03/2009 20:47:57 »
Your much vaunted concern about the ecology of a few micro organisms in sub zero mountain chasms is irrelevant compared to the ecological damage caused by cutting vast areas of forestry harbouring vastly more life forms.

Are you worried when you walk you are squashing/killing micro organisms ?

I never mentioned a single word about microorganisms. Please pay attention.
I got annoyed with looking
at my own signature

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lyner

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« Reply #42 on: 05/03/2009 22:46:15 »
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I would also like to point out that as a member of a UK Mountain Rescue Team, I voluntarily rescue people for my own selfish adrenaline drug rush.
Who knows, you may be called to rescue NSM one day when he's emptying his bins!

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Offline BenV

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« Reply #43 on: 06/03/2009 08:52:26 »
Your much vaunted concern about the ecology of a few micro organisms in sub zero mountain chasms is irrelevant compared to the ecological damage caused by cutting vast areas of forestry harbouring vastly more life forms.

Are you worried when you walk you are squashing/killing micro organisms ?

I never mentioned a single word about microorganisms. Please pay attention.
I think he was referring to me.  I hold that the species present in extreme environments are as important if not more so than those in more moderate environments.  This is partly because we can learn a lot from them, and partly be cause they play an important role in their niche.

NSM thinks they don't matter at all.

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Offline NobodySavedMe

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« Reply #44 on: 06/03/2009 09:18:39 »
Quote
How do you explain skyscrapers and multi story houses and tall buildings and mining and basements?
What sort of percentage of the radius of the Earth does a skyscraper or deep mine represent? By your argument, when you walk upright, you head can't be considered as being on the surface.

On mountains that are  enough for your 'scheme' there is still ample precipitation. Have you heard of glaciers? They may be a bit slow but they transfer the contents of high valleys down to the bottom and then they melt - delivering a load of the rubbish you plan to put up there. Bearing in mind the mass of snow / ice, could you restrain them?. Why do you think these high valleys are not used for storing nuclear waste? People have actually thought about the options, already.

How is frozen waste going to climb out of a chasm ?

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lyner

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« Reply #45 on: 06/03/2009 22:58:47 »
Where are these 'chasms' to which you refer?
I think your view of the topography of mountain ranges may be a bit misguided. The few locations you refer to are very inaccessible. How much do you think it would cost to transport all your waste up there?
Can you imagine Holland paying Switzerland to look after all its waste? Get real

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Offline NobodySavedMe

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« Reply #46 on: 08/03/2009 15:31:13 »
Where are these 'chasms' to which you refer?
I think your view of the topography of mountain ranges may be a bit misguided. The few locations you refer to are very inaccessible. How much do you think it would cost to transport all your waste up there?
Can you imagine Holland paying Switzerland to look after all its waste? Get real

chasms are not "up there". AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA


they are "down there".    VVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVV

you expense argument is easily refuted after all waste is transported today all around the world in ships/tankers.

Every country has mountains and therefore chasms.The waste is simply dumped into the chasm and will cost less then today as no processing needs to be done.

Do you understand peaks and valleys with a line through the middle?
« Last Edit: 08/03/2009 15:33:56 by NobodySavedMe »

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« Reply #47 on: 08/03/2009 20:56:53 »
'Frozen' implies 'up there' - either going North or ascending into mountains.

"all (domestic) waste" is not transported in supertankers - that was the point of my initial post. It is buried not far from where it is produced.

Perhaps you could post a map of Holland with the 'mountains' marked on it. Presumably these mountains which you propose to use have a minimum acceptable height. What would that height be and how many countries actually have chasms with permafrost in them?

Some references might help to support your sweeping statements.

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Offline Mazurka

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« Reply #48 on: 09/03/2009 10:36:01 »
It is true that significant amounts of waste (recyclate) plastic, metal etc is shipped around the world - in the majority of cases back to China where it is recycled. Contrary to what is written in the more sensationlist media, no domestic waste is shipped across the world.

This is economic solely because otherwise the ships and the containers that delivered goods to the west that originated in China would otherwise be travelling back empty.  Until recently, China's demand for raw materials was greater than could be provided by virgin resources, so the value of recyclate was high.


There are no "chasms" in the UK which would be cold enough all year round to prevent anaerobic decay - and as I posted above - as soon as the bugs get going it is very difficult to stop them as they are exothermic. 

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Offline NobodySavedMe

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« Reply #49 on: 11/03/2009 11:44:59 »
It is true that significant amounts of waste (recyclate) plastic, metal etc is shipped around the world - in the majority of cases back to China where it is recycled. Contrary to what is written in the more sensationlist media, no domestic waste is shipped across the world.

This is economic solely because otherwise the ships and the containers that delivered goods to the west that originated in China would otherwise be travelling back empty.  Until recently, China's demand for raw materials was greater than could be provided by virgin resources, so the value of recyclate was high.


There are no "chasms" in the UK which would be cold enough all year round to prevent anaerobic decay - and as I posted above - as soon as the bugs get going it is very difficult to stop them as they are exothermic. 

Miss sophie still does not understand what a chasm is.She thinks it up a mountain or that a mountain is required for it to exist.I suggest you study geography and topography.

I have checked Holland and it is not perfectly flat at all as you suggest being riddled with chasms,gullies and mineshafts.

In any case Holland is not the world or any other country.

You are quite correct in being wrong in stating that no chasms exist in the uk which are cold.

I suggest you try visiting these chasms with a thermometer.

I fear the reason is you and miss sophie are obsessed with attacking the idea is that you did not think of this solution yourself and thus have to expend great energy on dissing someone who has the boldness and vision to break the mould of conventional thinking.
« Last Edit: 11/03/2009 11:47:36 by NobodySavedMe »