Has a new plant species been created?

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Offline Chemistry4me

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Has a new plant species been created?
« on: 23/01/2009 07:19:01 »
There are three different (that is what I think) plants in the garden, two of them, were planted there, the third one just popped out of the ground one day.
Let me show you...

[attachment=6508]

Green leaves right? I can assure you that there are no prickles, it was planted there.

[attachment=6504]

Yellow leaves right? This one has got prickles, it was also planted there.

Now this is the one that popped out of the ground, it has got green leaves, but... it also has prickles!!  [:o] [:o] [:o]

[attachment=6506]

See the prickles!!!

[attachment=6510]

What is going on here? Do you think the two plants could have done something and created a new species? [???] [???] Or is it just some random plant that got there somehow, actually, there are three of these 'new' species  [:o] [:o]
« Last Edit: 23/01/2009 07:23:51 by Chemistry4me »

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Offline dentstudent

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Has a new plant species been created?
« Reply #1 on: 23/01/2009 08:33:08 »
Sometimes plants can be controlled to have certain characteristics, but when they reproduce, these charactersitics are lost. An example is the twisty form of Hazel (Corkscrew Hazel Corylus avellana "Contorta") which, if you grow a new bush from a nut produced by this bush, will return to its original, non-twisty from. Someone can help with the genetics here, I'm sure, but I would guess that the twisty gene is recessive and had to be controlled to have the desired effect. My thoughts therefore are that #2 plant was grown specifically for its yellow leaves, and that #3 plant may be the offspring of #2, but the yellow leaf gene is recessive to the green leaf gene, and so is not apparent.

Possibly.

There may be other solutions, for example, many trees are grown from different root stock (especially fruit trees), whereby the desired tree is grafted onto the stem of another. Is there a "collar" feature on the #2 tree, at about 50cm or so? This might indicate a graft. It might be that this tree species reproduces through underground shooting (similar to bamboo), so if the root stock is from a graft, then the new tree would be the same as the root stock tree, and not the grafted tree.

It might also be that tree #3 has absolutely nothing to do with either of them!
« Last Edit: 23/01/2009 08:38:35 by dentstudent »

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Offline Chemistry4me

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Has a new plant species been created?
« Reply #2 on: 23/01/2009 08:41:42 »
Okay, I'll go have a look tomorrow.

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Offline Chemistry4me

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Has a new plant species been created?
« Reply #3 on: 23/01/2009 08:44:11 »
The green one is called a mop top (I am fairly certain) and the yellow one is either frisia or robinia (or both), can't quite remember, but one of them is the second part of the latin name (I think!)

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Offline Chemistry4me

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Has a new plant species been created?
« Reply #4 on: 23/01/2009 08:45:31 »
Aha! The yellow one is Robinia pseudoacacia 'Frisia'

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Offline dentstudent

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« Reply #5 on: 23/01/2009 08:50:05 »
Aha! The yellow one is Robinia pseudoacacia 'Frisia'

This indicates that the Robinia has been hybrid into the "Frisia" form. We have a lot of standard Robinia around here, and the leaves are as in #3.

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Offline Don_1

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Has a new plant species been created?
« Reply #6 on: 23/01/2009 08:50:20 »
Robinia (False Acacia)indeed, if the leaves remain yellow all year and it has pea like flowers.
If brains were made of dynamite, I wouldn't have enough to blow my nose.

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Offline Chemistry4me

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Has a new plant species been created?
« Reply #7 on: 23/01/2009 08:53:28 »
Like this:


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Offline dentstudent

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Has a new plant species been created?
« Reply #8 on: 23/01/2009 08:54:06 »
Robinia (False Acacia)indeed, if the leaves remain yellow all year and it has pea like flowers.

It is part of the pea family, like Laburnum.

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Offline Chemistry4me

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« Reply #9 on: 23/01/2009 08:55:11 »
The yellow leaves don't remain all year round, neither does the green ones.

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Offline dentstudent

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« Reply #10 on: 23/01/2009 08:56:42 »
The yellow leaves don't remain all year round, neither does the green ones.

Robinia are deciduous....But I think that Don meant that the leaves remain yellow when they are out, and don't alter their colour during the year.

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Offline Don_1

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« Reply #11 on: 23/01/2009 08:58:50 »
Yes indeed.

You are quite right about these Frisia being grown on stock roots. This variety is grafted onto stock root. What you have growing as your 3rd tree are the result of 'suckers', the stock root growing it's own tree top.
If brains were made of dynamite, I wouldn't have enough to blow my nose.

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Offline dentstudent

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Has a new plant species been created?
« Reply #12 on: 23/01/2009 09:04:22 »
Yes indeed.

You are quite right about these Frisia being grown on stock roots. This variety is grafted onto stock root. What you have growing as your 3rd tree are the result of 'suckers', the stock root growing it's own tree top.

Glad to know that I'm in the right business!

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Offline Chemistry4me

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« Reply #13 on: 23/01/2009 09:13:09 »
I've just realised that I've never seen flowers on the mop top!

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Offline Chemistry4me

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« Reply #14 on: 23/01/2009 09:15:59 »
What you have growing as your 3rd tree are the result of 'suckers', the stock root growing it's own tree top.
So what do you think is going on? All this technical talk, I cannot comprehend!

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Offline dentstudent

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« Reply #15 on: 23/01/2009 09:19:56 »
How close is #2 to #3?

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Offline dentstudent

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« Reply #16 on: 23/01/2009 09:23:57 »
Also, have a look at Honey locust (Gleditsia triacanthos)

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Offline Chemistry4me

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« Reply #17 on: 23/01/2009 09:27:38 »
Not as close as #1 is to #3, probably 10-12 meters, but if you look at the picture of #1, you can actually see #3 on the left hand side.

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Offline Don_1

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« Reply #18 on: 23/01/2009 11:20:02 »
How long have you had #1 and was it always the colour it is now?

If you did not plant #1 & #2, it is possible that #1 was the same as #2, but suckers growing from the root stock took away the nutrients to the grafted tree, so it did not survive. Suckers should be removed to protect the grafted plant.
If brains were made of dynamite, I wouldn't have enough to blow my nose.

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Offline Chemistry4me

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« Reply #19 on: 23/01/2009 21:26:41 »
We've had #1 for 2-3 years and it has always had green leaves.

If you did not plant #1 & #2, it is possible that #1 was the same as #2, but suckers growing from the root stock took away the nutrients to the grafted tree, so it did not survive. Suckers should be removed to protect the grafted plant.
I don't understand all this technical stuff [???][???][???]

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Offline Chemistry4me

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« Reply #20 on: 24/01/2009 02:23:50 »
There may be other solutions, for example, many trees are grown from different root stock (especially fruit trees), whereby the desired tree is grafted onto the stem of another. Is there a "collar" feature on the #2 tree, at about 50cm or so? This might indicate a graft.

Like this?

[attachment=6514]

Here are the shape of the leaves.

[attachment=6516]

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Offline Don_1

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« Reply #21 on: 24/01/2009 14:20:30 »
The trunk of #2 certainly looks like it has been grafted. I'm sure I can just detect the evidence of a diagonal line running from just below the collar on the left side of the picture down to the right side.

Tree #1 looks older than #2, when you planted it, it may already have been quite old.

As to the thorns, I've done a little checking in my books and discovered that the thorns are a feature of younger trees and may disappear as the tree ages.

This species is known as 'Black Locust' in it's native SE US. It can be an invasive plant.

I would suggest cutting the new plants back ground level, unless you want them. At the distance they are from #1 & 2 I don't think they are suckers, more likely saplings from seed.
If brains were made of dynamite, I wouldn't have enough to blow my nose.

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Offline Chemistry4me

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« Reply #22 on: 24/01/2009 23:07:28 »
I would suggest cutting the new plants back ground level, unless you want them. At the distance they are from #1 & 2 I don't think they are suckers, more likely saplings from seed.
And what exactly is that?

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Offline Don_1

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« Reply #23 on: 25/01/2009 13:23:28 »
Hybrid plants may not be able to reproduce by seed an identical copy of the plant, they will often produce a plant which has reverted to one of the original plants from which they were hybridised. To ensure a true copy of the hybrid plant, cuttings are taken from the plant and grafted to a root stock of the original plant. This is also done sometimes because the hybrid plant, when grown from seed, does not form such a strong root system.

There are several different grafting techniques. The one used on your tree is this:
[attachment=6530]

Suckers (so called because they suck nutrients from the graft)can grow from the stock root. This usually occurs from just below ground level. I suppose they could be likened to rejection in organ transplants. The root tries to grow it's own top growth from below the graft. Nutrients will go to this growth, depriving the grafted growth, which would eventually die back leaving the non-hybridised tree to continue to grow.

Since your saplings are so far from the point where suckers would normally grow, I think one or the other (possibly both) your trees have self seeded.
If brains were made of dynamite, I wouldn't have enough to blow my nose.

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Offline Chemistry4me

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« Reply #24 on: 25/01/2009 22:42:32 »
So wait... what do you think #3 is? Not a new species, we've worked that one out. But do you think it came from the #1 tree?

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Offline Don_1

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« Reply #25 on: 26/01/2009 08:56:29 »
So wait... what do you think #3 is? Not a new species, we've worked that one out. But do you think it came from the #1 tree?

The seed could have come from either tree. Tree #1 growing in it's natural form, would obviously set seed which would result in the new plant being in it's natural form, but tree #2, the hybrid, if setting seed, is likely to be infertile or more likely than not (if fertile) to produce young which have reverted to their natural form.

If you want another tree similar to #2, take a cutting from it of a fresh growth around 15 - 20 cms long. Strip off any leaves leaving only the growing tip. Make a diagonal cut just below the point where you removed the lowest leaf on the opposite side of the removed leaf. Remove all top growth from one of your new saplings and graft the cutting to the main trunk (as in above diagram). Protect the wrapping around the graft and any any other stems from the root ball which you have cut back with wax. Be sure to use clean very sharp blades. Use a new Stanley knife blade or similar, but be sure to wash off any oil used to protect the blade from rusting first. Ensure your new plant is kept well watered and protect from frost, harsh direct sunlight and strong winds. Even too much of  warm breeze can result in the cutting loosing too much water through evaporation. If you can dig up and pot one of your saplings, so much the better, you would then be able to move it to a suitable position, but you will then need to wait until the potted saplings settles before grafting.
If brains were made of dynamite, I wouldn't have enough to blow my nose.

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Offline Chemistry4me

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« Reply #26 on: 26/01/2009 09:09:01 »
Why would I want another tree similar to #2? Are you saying that it might turn out differently?

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Offline Don_1

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« Reply #27 on: 26/01/2009 09:36:44 »
No. A graft from #2 onto a root stock would produce a tree the same as #2.
If brains were made of dynamite, I wouldn't have enough to blow my nose.

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Offline Chemistry4me

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« Reply #28 on: 26/01/2009 09:39:53 »
Okay, I see. Is there any chance that #3 has absolutely nothing to do with either #1 or #2?

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Offline Don_1

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« Reply #29 on: 26/01/2009 09:57:37 »
Unless there are other trees of this species in your vicinity from which seed may have come, no. It has grown from the seed of one of your existing trees. Given time, the thorns will become less evident and may disappear altogether, giving you another tree the same as #1.
If brains were made of dynamite, I wouldn't have enough to blow my nose.

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Offline Chemistry4me

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« Reply #30 on: 26/01/2009 10:00:28 »
Thanks for all the help Don_1, I'll see how it goes. And maybe keep you updated... in a few years time!

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Offline Chemistry4me

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« Reply #31 on: 26/01/2009 21:57:07 »
I've just realised that tree 1 looks nothing like three 3, #1 looks like someone with a bad haircut but #3 is just...a mohawk.

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Offline Chemistry4me

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« Reply #32 on: 27/01/2009 00:42:32 »
The leaves don't look very similar in shape either... is that normal? [???][???][???]

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Offline Don_1

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« Reply #33 on: 27/01/2009 09:53:08 »
There are 20 different sub-species of the Robinia. Here are a few:

R. bispidia - Rose Acacia, often used as a climber, dark green pinnate leaves
R. kelseyi - pale green pinnate leaves
R. pseudoacacia - Black Locust, light green ovate leaves
R. Frisia - golden yellow pinnate leaves

All the above will have spines at the nodes which may become fewer in number as the tree ages and may dissappear altogether. All have small pea-like flowers

R. Inermis - Mop-Head Acacia, Mid green ovate leaves, compact globular heads of spineless branches, seldom flowers.
If brains were made of dynamite, I wouldn't have enough to blow my nose.