ATLANTIS DISCOVERED

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Offline DoctorBeaver

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Re: ATLANTIS DISCOVERED
« Reply #50 on: 29/01/2009 19:42:55 »

Why do you wish to avoid any discourse with me as I am presenting a serious discussion? Do you ignore people as you please and Address only Doctor Beaver, who is somewhat more gullible?


Gullible, am I? I have been studying mythology, ancient civilisations and ancient languages for the past 20 years so am interested to read such amusing theories. I am merely entering into a discourse to establish exactly what proof Mr Margiani has to support his seemingly grundless assertions.

I have already ascertained that his knowledge of Etruscan & Phonecian scripts is non-existent. Now I await evidence to support the claim that Atlantis had 64,000,000 inhabitants at a time when the populaton of the whole of Europe was a mere 400,000. I am not hopeful that any will be forthcoming.

Jim - your comments on the geology of the Atlantic floor are welcome. That is a field I know nothing of. Come to think of it, Texas is almost Central America so you must know some Mayan myths  [:P]
Fledgling science site at http://www.sciencefile.org/SF/content/view/54/98/ needs members and original articles. If you can help, please join.

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Offline JimBob

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Re: ATLANTIS DISCOVERED
« Reply #51 on: 29/01/2009 23:13:43 »
Jim!
Quote: Canada 15,000 years ago, the ice was several kilometers thick and NOTHING lived on it. It was exactly as the interior of Antartica is today.

That happened 23,000–18,000 years B.P. several kilometers thick sheet could create huge evaporation of water from warm and hot seas and oceans. that could produce huge fissure outflow from asthenosphere through the mid-ocean ridges mainly!

Conclusive evidence about global geo-catastrophe 23,000 BP! 

JIM!
http://www.agu.org/pubs/crossref/2003/2002PA000769.shtml

GLAMAP 2000 presents new reconstructions of the Atlantic's sea surface temperatures (SST) at the Last Glacial Maximum (LGM), defined at both 21,500–18,000 years B.P. (“Last Isotope Maximum”) and 23,000–19,000 years B.P. (maximum glacial sea level low stand and orbital minimum of solar insolation;

New results mean that within Ontario was possible HUNTING 15,000 BP.!

This is not new - "Published 3 May 2003."  It is included in my comment - Yes, the global max was about 18,000 years ago. The maximum WAS a southern extent of the ice to beyond the present location of the Ohio and Missouri Rivers. As the ice retreated from 18,000 to 13,000 years ago it had a "still-stand" or a period when no retreat was happening at about 13,000 years ago. The ice did not retreat any further north than the St. Lawrence and Great Lakes until abut 11,000 years ago.

See http://www.esd.ornl.gov/projects/qen/nercNORTHAMERICA.html - OH my it is older than 2003 but the data has STILL not been refuted. It has been reinforced.

LASTLY -

The assertion that the seas were responsible for outflow from the asthenosphere is ludicrous - firstly, because the insulating properties of the ocean floor, secondly and most importantly, Issac Newton.

Please see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newton%27s_law_of_cooling#Newton.27s_law_of_cooling

A system cools from the hottest part to the coolest. The vacuum and coolness of space allows ONLY for heat flow to occur from the core of the earth outward. It cannot occur the other way around as proven by Issac Newton.

My, my, my - I learned that 5 years before I went to university at 18 years old. I am sorry you missed this law in school.


The mind is like a parachute. It works best when open.  -- A. Einstein

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Offline JimBob

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Re: ATLANTIS DISCOVERED
« Reply #52 on: 29/01/2009 23:15:34 »
Gullible, am I?

This needs no comment. The facts speak for themselves.  [;D] [:I] [;D]
The mind is like a parachute. It works best when open.  -- A. Einstein

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Offline DoctorBeaver

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Re: ATLANTIS DISCOVERED
« Reply #53 on: 29/01/2009 23:21:40 »
Gullible, am I?

This needs no comment. The facts speak for themselves.  [;D] [:I] [;D]

You dare to denegrate this polymath? Get back to your bullocks!
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Offline JimBob

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Re: ATLANTIS DISCOVERED
« Reply #54 on: 30/01/2009 00:04:43 »
Gullible, am I?

This needs no comment. The facts speak for themselves.  [;D] [:I] [;D]

You dare to denegrate this polymath? Get back to your bullocks!

What did you expect me to do, roll over on the floor, begging for attention or lick your ear, then leaving a present in you slippers when you go to bed?

P-lease!
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Offline K.Margiani

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Re: ATLANTIS DISCOVERED
« Reply #55 on: 30/01/2009 08:54:10 »
There are written about low level of oceans during glaciations everywhere. I could not drink that!
For last millenniums the level was almost stable. That was connected to the stable temperature changes in the water basins.
Last two glaciations were started after global geo-catastrophes 25000± and 12,500± years ago.
The greatest and thickest sheets could create rapid evaporation from seas and oceans only. Rapid evaporation is reason of intensive snowfalls within polar zones and rainfalls in other zones.

It means something changes balance after the global geo-catastrophes. Clue is surrounded territories of the mid–ocean ridges and their reversal magnetism. Each huge long reversal zone along the ridges is connected to the different huge outflow during the events.
http://pubs.usgs.gov/gip/dynamic/developing.html
You can see that huge magma outflow lines are above the plates.
Reversal of the global magnetic field is rapid event (Few days maximum) on the geological timescale and closely connected to the global geo-catastrophes.
P.S. For logical framework and knowledge historical source is important. There is hidden greatest secret as well. For 3 days EB geo-transfer had created not only huge outflow-zones along the ridges.  EB geo-transfer created circulation into outer nucleus. Circulation of huge igneous liquid masses within E geo-sphere had created independent rotation of huge inner metallic and magnetic nucleus for (3) days. 
Unfortunately the ATLANTIS situated along the temporary  uplifted ridge approximately 25,000 years ago!
I'm very sorry!

[attachment=6611]
« Last Edit: 30/01/2009 11:26:15 by K.Margiani »
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Offline LoneStar77

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Re: ATLANTIS DISCOVERED
« Reply #56 on: 30/01/2009 09:39:56 »
Wow! I see the discussion has become downright spicy. [:-[]

How about a different take on the subject? I've studied the subject for fifty years and it keeps getting better.

I certainly wish K.Margiani had greater command of English, but I can understand. My wife uses English as a second language, and well... sometimes I have to get her to tell me several times and in different ways before I understand her point. Whew! K.Margiani's arguments are, by and large, not well-founded in demonstrable fact. And I agree with the earlier comment about the map. An interesting piece of art without evidence to back it up.

Atlantis! Certainly we don't have direct proof of it, yet. But consider this indirect evidence that suggests its possible past existence:

  • Some Native American tribes, the Basques and some Finns are part of the mtDNA haplogroup X
  • Plato's approximate date for Atlantis's demise coincides with the end of the Younger Dryas (~9620 BCE) -- an abrupt climate change worldwide.
  • A moderately large volcanic trace was found in the Greenland ice cores for the same date (9620 BCE) dwindling over the next two-plus years.
  • A possible 2-meter drop in sea level occurred right at the end of the YD -- this after thousands of years of sea level rise.
  • Most mountains are formed near tectonic plate boundaries by the actions known as subduction and crustal folding. The traditional location of Atlantis (between Gibraltar and the mid-Atlantic ridge) is a tectonic plate boundary (the Africa-Eurasia).
  • There is a sudden bend in the largely East-West boundary beginning at the Azores (about 36 Mya) and trending toward the Northwest.
  • The so-called Azores "hot spot" is not like the Hawaii-Emperor chain. The ages of the volcanic islands are all over the map and not sequential like the aforementioned Pacific island chain.
  • The plate boundary is indistinct in many locations along the Gloria Fracture Zone (from Gibraltar to the Azores).
  • The bent leg of the plate boundary is noted by some geologists as a slight spreading center -- the Terceira Ridge.
  • From about 7 Mya to about 5 Mya, Gibraltar was blocked, leading to the Messinia Salinity Crisis (the drying up of the Med).
  • There are numerous anomalistic fractures across North Africa and one particularly large fracture at the eastern end of the African plate -- the Great Rift Valley (from about 35 Mya to present).

Each of these may be related to Plato's story. Naturally, each has many possible interpretations and there needs to be corroborative evidence to back up a link to the mythical island empire. The 2-meter drop in sea level worldwide is particularly interesting, but not a proven proxy for an actual event. It sorely needs corroboration from other sources. See newbielink:http://www.ancientsuns.com/ancient-earth/atlantis.php [nonactive] for more information. What makes it particularly interesting is the fact that two meters is consistent with the 3000-meter tectonic collapse of a Texas-size plot of land somewhere in the oceans of Earth. North Atlantic? There's the rub. We need more evidence.

Carl Martin
newbielink:http://www.MissionAtlantis.com [nonactive]

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Offline K.Margiani

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Re: ATLANTIS DISCOVERED
« Reply #57 on: 30/01/2009 11:13:18 »
The Swedes reported in New Scientist 6/1/1972, p.7, that "a reversal of the Earth's magnetic field had occurred 12, 400 years ago" which gives 10,428 BC. ± (±75 years is acceptable) Plato’s date is near to the truth!

The ruins of temples dated at 12,000 years old have been found near Bimini, Bahamas. Megalithic structures are not supposed to be in the Bahamas.
http://www.lost-civilizations.net/possible-physical-evidence-atlantis-page-2.html
Preliminary analysis has revealed that the original structures, although smaller in size than the Great Pyramid of Giza, appear to have been more advanced.
Casing stones have been measured which are of the same unique angle as those at the Great Pyramid.
The ruins are megalithic and bear a remarkable resemblance to ancient sites in Egypt. So called "quarry marks" found in the Aswan quarries and also on the Great Pyramid, itself, appear to be identical matches with those found on the Bimini temple stones.
One major difference, however, between the Egyptian sites and these stones is that on The Bimini stones you find a great number of sky maps which have recorded the paths of various heavenly bodies. The major concern of the mysterious ancient civilization that produced these heavenly maps seems to have been Saturn and Jupiter - with the oldest records reflecting an emphasis in Saturn.
Some of the stones are under water and some of them are under the sand under water. They are not in their original formation.

My comment:
 1. Looks like a king’s holiday place at the last boundary. King of marine power had journey place at the Bimini: Now is sunken and have been found near Bimini, Bahamas. There should be other remains of pre-flood constructions of the marine kingdom as well.
 2. This is proof: these islands were much wider at the boundary.


I will publish other evidences for my friends! 
« Last Edit: 30/01/2009 12:48:38 by K.Margiani »
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Offline K.Margiani

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Re: ATLANTIS DISCOVERED
« Reply #58 on: 30/01/2009 12:00:12 »
My main proof is Athanasius Kircher’s map.
 http://www.art.com/asp/sp-asp/_/pd--14434030/sp--A/igid--1738590/Map_of_Atlantis_Showing_Position_Relative_to_Europe_Africa_and_America.htm?sOrig=CAT&sOrigID=0&ui=BCBBEC4A6C754B47B915A5497E9F818D

Athanasius Kircher’s map 1669. Kircher was a Jesuit German priest, who lived between 1602-1680. He published “Mundus Subterraneus”, a book containing a map of Atlantis according to ancient Egyptian maps.  The original map was taken from Egypt by the Romans, probably around 30 AD.
 Ancient Egyptian source describes all details of my map! Mountains, valleys, two small and seven smaller islands, exactly coordinates two main volcanoes, Six main rivers, Path between two islands (trident of Poseidia) from Gibraltar  two the capital of Atlantis!

I respect your knowledge my opponents. My knowledge has another level and sources. You did not respect it!

I’m spending almost whole my life and money for mankind.
I want to say that soon 50% (as a minimum) of the mankind will die immediately. When will happen That?... Maybe tomorrow… or after 100 years… I don’t know… sorry… Geological evolution has own laws!

P.S. To study that in the Cambridge or Oxford impossible!
« Last Edit: 30/01/2009 12:11:15 by K.Margiani »
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Offline K.Margiani

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Re: ATLANTIS DISCOVERED
« Reply #59 on: 30/01/2009 12:23:58 »
Carl Martin Now you have Exclusive right to publish my Atlantis map in your site!

Please explain for your readers all my proofs and evidences; by modern English of course! [:-\]

I'll continue publication other evidences!

Thank you!
« Last Edit: 30/01/2009 12:40:08 by K.Margiani »
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Offline K.Margiani

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Re: ATLANTIS DISCOVERED
« Reply #60 on: 30/01/2009 14:42:23 »
Can you see huge streaked terrain along the mid ocean ridge above thin lithosphere plates, after huge fissure-outflows at the boundaries?
Clue for huge violent evaporation and global changing the water levels.
A lot of arcs along the streaked terrain are greatest proof of the fissure-outflows! 
[attachment=6614]
« Last Edit: 30/01/2009 14:52:04 by K.Margiani »
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Offline K.Margiani

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Re: ATLANTIS DISCOVERED
« Reply #61 on: 30/01/2009 15:53:02 »
We have greatest proof now! The Bahamas islands were much wider at the boundary and were important part of the marine power ATLANTIS!
1975; Twenty researchers, including archaeologists, a marine biologist, geologist,
and cartographer dove onto ruins on the sea floor off Bimini in 1975 and
brought back artifacts from which they concluded that the walls and roads
were made of materials not found in that part of the world.
1977; report of a huge pyramid found off Cay Sal in the Bahamas, photographed
by Ari Marshall's expedition, about 150 feet underwater. The pyramid was
about 650 feet high. Mysteriously, the surrounding water was lit by
sparkling white water flowing out of the openings in the pyramid and
surrounded by green water, instead of the black water everywhere else at
that depth.
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Offline LoneStar77

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Re: ATLANTIS DISCOVERED
« Reply #62 on: 30/01/2009 15:53:54 »
Quote
Carl Martin Now you have Exclusive right to publish my Atlantis map in your site!

Okay, I thank you for the honor, but I'm afraid I'll have to decline. The proof of which you speak may be clear to you in Georgian, and I have great respect for that, but it is losing almost everything in translation to English.  Even I do not understand most of what you said. The little I do understand does not sound like proof and I demand much more of myself on such things. I don't think our fellow posters are disrespecting your knowledge. Perhaps it is better to say that they demand a higher level of proof, as do I. Each point you make should be made clearly and thoroughly, citing references for each claim. This could help your presentation to others. I looked over your website and found it largely unintelligible. That may hurt, but if you seek truth, you have to be self aware and know when you need to improve something. Take it from a professional writer, award-winning essayist and scientist -- it needs a great deal of improvement. Look over a site like Wikipedia. There you have anyone and everyone contributing, but the rules require references, proper citations and the like. Some articles are better than others, but those that are found lacking are flagged as such.

Your map appears to be a copy of Kircher's. I'm not certain I feel comfortable accepting it as a real map of Atlantis, if the place really existed.

Geologically, the map doesn't fit the tectonics of the region -- the plate boundaries, the current movements of the plates and my interpretation of what those movements might have been prior to such a formation. I'm not saying that Kircher's drawing is a fake or a fiction. I will say that it is a vast stretch to accept it as valid.

On the subject of your native land, I think Georgia is equally fascinating. In my own research, I have found that it may be related to the children of Atlantis. The myth of Jason and the Argonauts and Princess Medea have captivated my imagination and curiosity. The myth talks of a dragon protecting the golden fleece. What if dragons were not real, living and breathing flying snakes, but mechanical flying craft? Sounds pretty far-fetched, I know. But examine the legends of dragons, especially the Greek and Egyptian. Also the story of the founding of Athens by Cecrops who was supposed to be half man, half snake is a possible clue. Could Cecrops merely have been the captain of the airship poking his head out of the top hatch to address his men? Could the warriors who sprang from the ground when Cadmus sowed the teeth of the golden dragon have been passengers of the dragon ship? When the golden dragon then floated silently away into the air, that makes me think it was either lighter-than-air craft or some kind of anti-gravity or warp drive. Consider the story of Medea after she was forced to leave her second husband, the king of Athens. She apparently flew away on a golden dragon. Was this the same dragon that was guarding the golden fleece? Could it be that Medea gained entre into the royal court of Athens because she flew into town in the dragon ship? Okay, far fetched, yes!

On the subject of myth, one researcher (on an A&E video on Atlantis) has said that Plato's story was clearly a fiction because there were no other versions of the Atlantis myth as there were for the other pantheon myths of Greece. There are two fallacies here. One is the researcher's assumption that the Atlantis story was like other Greek myths. The story of Atlantis had not been around like the other myths. It had only been a local dinner tale to the family, friends and descendants of Solon (the Greek statesman who heard the tale in Egypt c.600 BCE). Of course there weren't other versions... or were there? The other fallacy, is that another version of the story has to mention Atlantis by name and include all of Solon's details.

Consider this comparison:
  • Atlantis was supposedly the most advanced nation of all time.
  • The island empire was swallowed whole by the sea.
  • The refugees left the capital city and perhaps other regions.
  • The refugees took with them full knowledge of civilization.

and:

  • Metis was the wisest individual of all time.
  • Metis was swallowed whole by her lover, Zeus.
  • Athena was born from her father's head.
  • Athena was born full grown.

Could the titan, Metis, be matriarchal Atlantis in its final days. Could Athena be the matriarchal refugees who fled the capital (head) city with the full maturity of a civilized people, unlike the primitive hunter-gatherers who were their neighbors in Eurasia?

While far from proof of anything, the comparison is more than a little interesting.

The Basques, the Georgians, some, if not all, Native Americans, the Suomi (Finns), the Hungarians, Etruscans, Sumerians, Dravidians, Mon-Khmer and the Turks all speak agglutinative languages. That, by itself, doesn't mean much. But comparing what may be the most sentimentally favorite words from each language does raise some interesting suspicions of a linguistic connection of some kind. What are these sentimental favorites? Mother and father, of course. The Basque and Etruscan words for mother and father are a near perfect match, except that the gender is reversed. Basque for mother is a lot like Etruscan for father, and vice-versa. Could it be that children of matriarchal Atlantis eventually switched to a patriarchal or more egalitarian form of society?

The Greeks and Romans despised the Etruscans because they gave their women so much power. What arrogance! Could it just as easily have been that the women gave the men power? If we look into the Etruscan pantheon, we find that there are a god and goddess that have names that are near equivalent to the Basque words for mother and father -- not gender swapped! Could it be that in ancient times, between the time of the god and goddess and historical Etruscans, the word for "mother" stayed with the task rather than the gender? Then men would have become the new "mothers," or "rulers." If my transliteration of Georgian is at all accurate, it appears that the Georgian word for father is "mama," while the Georgian word for mother is "deda."

While far from proof of a link to Atlantis, this, plus the mythical elements from Colchis (ancient Georgia), and other biological evidence, tend to suggest a possible link.

A little more of my thoughts on these subjects might be found at newbielink:http://blog.AncientSuns.com [nonactive] and newbielink:http://www.EdgeOfRemembrance.com [nonactive].

I suggest, my Georgian friend, that you temper your enthusiasm for your subjects with restraint. Your proof may be strong in your own mind, but it remains very weak in translation. You really need to work on that part before others can give you the acknowledgment you seek. That's a lot of work, I know, but that is the mountain in your path. Hope this helps.


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Offline K.Margiani

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Re: ATLANTIS DISCOVERED
« Reply #63 on: 30/01/2009 17:25:03 »
Thank you Carl Martin. Please use that Titans in the myths mean people from ATLANTIS. Very many gods were grew up there (among TITANS)!
I have written that first stage during the modern mankind evolution had only ATLANTIS!

Proof:
Modern Azores Islands were peaks of the  mountain ridges in the center of Atlantis kingdom! At the Azores Islands A huge pyramid, in 10,000 feet of Atlantic water, was reported to have been found with a pulsating crystal on top of it, by Tony Benik's expedition. The group also found an opaque crystal tablet there, and reported that when a light was beamed through it, mysterious inscriptions (Hieroglyphs of Atlantis K.M.) became visible.

My comment: Everything was discovered within pre-flood terrain of main island (Poseidia) shown on the decoded map. Azores Islands are in the center of the decoded map!

I’m very tired and  have to cease my publication temporary!
If someone will publish interesting article for me I will answer by E-mail. kmargini@yahoo.com

ATLANTIS is DECODED!!!
[attachment=6616]
« Last Edit: 30/01/2009 17:51:01 by K.Margiani »
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lyner

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Re: ATLANTIS DISCOVERED
« Reply #64 on: 30/01/2009 19:42:35 »
What a load of ......



Is this supposed to be a Science forum?

Tolkein does this sort of thing so much better.

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Offline JimBob

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Re: ATLANTIS DISCOVERED
« Reply #65 on: 30/01/2009 23:48:23 »
I agree. Getting people who know nothing about geology, let alone people who disregard the scientific process - observe, experiment, verify THEN hypothesize - belong in a forum for people who would rather decline the scientific community. They are certainly NOT going to convert any scientifically-minded people.
The mind is like a parachute. It works best when open.  -- A. Einstein

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Offline LoneStar77

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Re: ATLANTIS DISCOVERED
« Reply #66 on: 31/01/2009 05:03:27 »
What a load of ......
Is this supposed to be a Science forum?
Tolkein does this sort of thing so much better.

Ad hominem is not very scientific. Your blanket statement is also very non-specific. If you're referring to K.Margiani, I have to say he has a long way to go with his scientific acumen. His use of generalities and absolutes is also non-scientific, like yours. Is your statement from frustration or impatience with his poor scientific acumen? I don't blame you. But perhaps a generous spirit would help. If he's lacking something, help him find it. He does have a touch of arrogance that blocks his acceptance of criticism. I hope he gets over it, otherwise he won't learn.

If you're referring to my input as well, I would ask for at least one specific.

One thing that is not stated in the "manual on being a scientist" (if such a thing existed) is that there are two types of skepticism. The restraint-based type is constructive. It helps to keep a scientist from jumping to a conclusion too early. K.Margiani needs a great deal of work on this. The self-indulgent kind of skepticism has a lot in common with the illogics -- ad hominem, non-sequitur, and the like. They are a lazy attitude and frequently not at all constructive.

I agree. Getting people who know nothing about geology, let alone people who disregard the scientific process - observe, experiment, verify THEN hypothesize - belong in a forum for people who would rather decline the scientific community. They are certainly NOT going to convert any scientifically-minded people.

I love science, too, JimBob. But your statement is equally non-specific. Who are "people?" And you're taking a great leap by stating that those people "know nothing about geology." Such an absolute is not at all logical and not based on observable fact. Anyone who knows the difference between a rock and a tree, or between a mountain and a valley, knows at least something about geology. And who knows, "people" may know a little more than that.

I applaud DoctorBeaver's attempts to engage K.Margiani in conversation about his theories. He was demanding and patient with our Georgian friend, attempting to elicit some degree of logic. Your statement about him being "gullible" was not at all scientific and an inaccurate generality in light of some of the things DoctorBeaver said. Scientists can also be compassionate humans with respect for one another and respect for non-scientists, as well.

Sometimes scientists can learn something from an "outsider." For more on this subject of "outsiderness," check out my award-winning essay, "Outsiderness in the Scientific Community," at newbielink:http://www.ancientsuns.com/fwd/rcm/other_writing.html [nonactive]. I once heard a story from an artist who once worked for NASA about one such incident. Scientists had been working on a solution for a universal docking mechanism. One of the scientists told his son about his work, and his young son asked, "Can't they use a funnel?" Bingo! Also, scientists can be surprisingly ignorant at times. The mini-series on Oppenheimer shows one such incident where scientists are debating ardently about the friction inside their device. After some time, they realize with much chagrin that their arguments were wasted. Wear and tear from friction is meaningless inside a nuclear bomb.

Okay, let's get down to science. If you're interested, let's talk about the merits or demerits of my observations from the literature -- scientific and otherwise. Perhaps Atlantis never existed. That's certainly possible, but some of the evidence I've gathered seems highly suggestive of its possible existence ... at least to me.

Carl Martin
newbielink:http://www.AncientSuns.com [nonactive]
newbielink:http://www.SpaceSoftware.net [nonactive]


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Offline DoctorBeaver

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Re: ATLANTIS DISCOVERED
« Reply #67 on: 31/01/2009 14:55:13 »
I asked Mr Margiani to produce an example of a trident in Etruscan scripts, which he claims exists. In all my years studying ancient languages I have never seen such an example. If he can produce an example then I shall give at least that part of his theory more credence.
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Offline DoctorBeaver

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Re: ATLANTIS DISCOVERED
« Reply #68 on: 31/01/2009 16:08:28 »
Here's another interesting point. During the era in which Atlantis was supposed to have existed it is estimated that you could feed 1.4 people per hectare of farmland. Multiplying that by the alleged 64 million inhabitants of Atlantis means you would need an area of farmland 8 times the size of France (roughly half the size of the U.S.A.). Judging by the map Mr Margiani has posted, Atlantis was nowhere near that size.

JimBob has already pointed out the geological inconsistencies and I can see other areas where Mr Margiani's claims do not fit with known facts.

I do not dismiss the possibility that Plato's Atlantis story is loosely based on fact; but I stress the word "loosely". One theory put forward is that all of Plato's figures should be divided by 10 - thus making Thera a good candidate. As Plato was writing about events that occured many centuries previous (and which had been recounted only orally) the possibility of exaggeration in the continual re-telling of the myth cannot be discounted.

You see, I like to work with facts or, at least, theories with a high degree of scientific validity. I have seen neither in any of Mr Margiani's post so far.
« Last Edit: 31/01/2009 16:20:55 by DoctorBeaver »
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Re: ATLANTIS DISCOVERED
« Reply #69 on: 31/01/2009 19:20:17 »
LoneStar77
My "load of" reference was to the original premise, not your post(s). No offence intended, in fact. Yes it is frustrating to read arrogant statements which pose as containing some serious ideas. When I made my reply I was about to launch into a detailed riposte but realised it would be a waste of time.
I am not always such a grumpy old sod.

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Re: ATLANTIS DISCOVERED
« Reply #70 on: 31/01/2009 19:35:34 »
Quote
Sometimes scientists can learn something from an "outsider." For more on this subject of "outsiderness," check out my award-winning essay, "Outsiderness in the Scientific Community," at http://www.ancientsuns.com/fwd/rcm/other_writing.html. I once heard a story from an artist who once worked for NASA about one such incident. Scientists had been working on a solution for a universal docking mechanism. One of the scientists told his son about his work, and his young son asked, "Can't they use a funnel?" Bingo! Also, scientists can be surprisingly ignorant at times. The mini-series on Oppenheimer shows one such incident where scientists are debating ardently about the friction inside their device. After some time, they realize with much chagrin that their arguments were wasted. Wear and tear from friction is meaningless inside a nuclear bomb.
I think there may be some confusion  in this paragraph between the words Scientist and Engineer. The man's son came up with an engineering solution, not a scientific truth.

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Re: ATLANTIS DISCOVERED
« Reply #71 on: 01/02/2009 06:18:25 »
Here's another interesting point. During the era in which Atlantis was supposed to have existed it is estimated that you could feed 1.4 people per hectare of farmland. Multiplying that by the alleged 64 million inhabitants of Atlantis means you would need an area of farmland 8 times the size of France (roughly half the size of the U.S.A.). Judging by the map Mr Margiani has posted, Atlantis was nowhere near that size.

Yes… this is impossible to study in the Oxford and Cambridge. Only my University has enough level to explain that!

In the middle of the last inter-flood period (16000 bp) the area in which Atlantis was existed became small for feeding and started process of agriculture-missions. Your claiming is very interesting to explain the three agriculture-missions in Egypt, Mesopotamia and India. 
« Last Edit: 01/02/2009 06:32:03 by K.Margiani »
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Re: ATLANTIS DISCOVERED
« Reply #72 on: 01/02/2009 10:26:29 »
If there were any credibility left in this topic then I think that saying
"Yes… this is impossible to study in the Oxford and Cambridge. Only my University has enough level to explain that!"
lost it.
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« Reply #73 on: 01/02/2009 13:47:01 »
Quote
Yes… this is impossible to study in the Oxford and Cambridge

Who said anything about Oxford & Cambridge? 1.4 people per hectare is the figure accepted throughout the archaeological community after years of study by experts from around the world (experts are people who actually know what they are talking about). I just did some simple maths.

I think you need to look at your theories critically & check your "facts" against expert knowledge & opinion. You seem to be relying on conjecture and ideas that have very little basis in reality. Much of what you claim is either wrong or impossible. As things stand, you are just making yourself look silly and ill-informed.
« Last Edit: 01/02/2009 13:54:50 by DoctorBeaver »
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« Reply #74 on: 01/02/2009 14:40:15 »
1. I only said my university is good as well!
2. Without the agriculture-colonies from 16,000 B.C. the atlantian population could not be increased about 64,000,000 at the boundary 10,500 B.P.
« Last Edit: 01/02/2009 15:35:13 by K.Margiani »
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Offline LoneStar77

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« Reply #75 on: 01/02/2009 15:01:21 »
I am not always such a grumpy old sod.

SophieCentaur, I wouldn't know anything about being grumpy, but don't tell my wife; she'd say I'm a liar.  [;)]

I think there may be some confusion  in this paragraph between the words Scientist and Engineer. The man's son came up with an engineering solution, not a scientific truth.

No confusion, just sloppiness on my part. The story about Oppenheimer was also an engineering concern. Thanks!  [:I]

One theory put forward is that all of Plato's figures should be divided by 10 - thus making Thera a good candidate. As Plato was writing about events that occured many centuries previous (and which had been recounted only orally) the possibility of exaggeration in the continual re-telling of the myth cannot be discounted.

You see, I like to work with facts or, at least, theories with a high degree of scientific validity. I have seen neither in any of Mr Margiani's post so far.

I agree on both counts.

About Atlantis, not only the factor of ten for size, but also for years (900 instead of 9000). I seem to remember another researcher pointing out that the word for "larger than" is very similar to "midway between" in Greek -- making Plato's Timaeus read "midway between" Libya (Africa) and Asia (Asia Minor), which would likewise place Atlantis in the vicinity of Thera.

That's a pretty clever piece of work, but for me it falls a bit short. If Plato had not mentioned southwestern Spain as being near Atlantis, Thera would likely have won the argument (whether or not it was indeed the real Atlantis [as always, if Atlantis really ever existed]). The reference to Gadira or Gadirus is pretty damning to the Thera angle, despite its cleverness. How much of Plato do we throw out and how much do we keep? That's a tough question, but the puzzle is not going to die easily.

When I first read Timaeus and Critias, I was turned off by the idea of a "mud filled ocean." That seemed pretty unreal. But then I got to thinking about what would result if a Texas-sized plot of land were to subside within hours, perhaps in fits and starts. At least one and perhaps several mega-tsunamis might have occurred ... any one of which might have been a kilometer or more high at landfall. Imagine the amount of topsoil stirred up by such an event. Mud filled ocean? Maybe not the thick, mucky kind I'm used to calling "mud," but perhaps watered down muddy ocean liquid.

Three events from science coincide with Plato's approximate date (~600 BCE for Solon + 9000 years = 9600 BCE). That's not saying much, but the types of events raised goosebumps on me.

The abrupt end to the Younger Dryas is not clearly understood, yet. Scientists have a pretty good idea what might have caused its equally abrupt start -- a freshwater glacial spill from the North American ice cap. This put a stopper in the Atlantic's thermohaline cycle -- Earth's temperature regulator. Earth was in another mini-Ice Age for 1300 years. Imagine one or more mega-tsunamis stirring up the water in the North Atlantic, perhaps breaking through the thermohaline cap. So, Atlantis is a possible explanation for the end to the Younger Dryas. And, again, the years are a veritable match -- 9620 BCE (plus or minus some error factor -- I think around 50 years or so).

Maybe we don't need the plus or minus. In the Greenland ice cores (GISP2) is a moderately large volcanic trace at about 9620 BCE (11,569.77 BP). Of course, that could have been a volcano any place on planet Earth, unless there was some kind of chemical signature that can be traced to a specific region. Still, the possibility exists that Plato's infamous lost island empire could be the culprit.  After all, the dates match, and such an event would seem to be consistent with a large-scale tectonic event such as a Texas-sized collapse.

Coinciding with these two events (and Plato's putative disaster) is a 2-meter drop in sea level worldwide (Nature, 7 Dec. 1989). Doesn't sound like much, but I did a little calculation based on surface area of oceans and major seas, and the possible sub-surface volume of Atlantis (using a body slightly larger than Texas). The result of such a subsidence would be about 2 meters in sea level drop worldwide. Very interesting, if I do say so myself.

So, my friends. We have proof, not of Atlantis, but that something very, very BIG happened the same year Atlantis was supposed to have gone under. Three points of evidence from different disciplines. I elaborate a bit more on these three data points in the background article for my most recent novel project, newbielink:http://www.ancientsuns.com/fwd/eor/yd.html [nonactive].

Comments?  Criticisms?

And hey! I need some feedback on this stuff because I'm writing a book. Sometimes I'm full of it and need a reality check. So, have at it.

LoneStar77
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Offline DoctorBeaver

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« Reply #76 on: 01/02/2009 15:13:35 »
Carl - you raise some interesting points. Unfortunately I know nothing about geology.

I shall digest the rest of what you wrote and regurgitate my musings on it later  [:D]
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« Reply #77 on: 01/02/2009 15:43:49 »
I could not be ever decoded Atlantis without knowledge of Geology. That was natural geological catastrophe and could be explained by geological laws only!
I’m going to write plausible book about the sunken kingdom!
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Offline DoctorBeaver

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« Reply #78 on: 01/02/2009 17:53:49 »
1. I only said my university is good as well!


Really? Let me remind you what you said earlier

Quote
Yes… this is impossible to study in the Oxford and Cambridge. Only my University has enough level to explain that!

« Last Edit: 01/02/2009 17:55:22 by DoctorBeaver »
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« Reply #79 on: 01/02/2009 19:12:07 »

I’m going to write plausible book about the sunken kingdom!
I suspect that many of us will not think it's plausible.
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« Reply #80 on: 01/02/2009 19:26:41 »
Wow! four pages and this thread is still going - lol.
...And its claws are as big as cups, and for some reason it's got a tremendous fear of stamps! And Mrs Doyle was telling me it's got magnets on its tail, so if you're made out of metal it can attach itself to you! And instead of a mouth it's got four arses!

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« Reply #81 on: 01/02/2009 20:26:04 »
Wow! four pages and this thread is still going - lol.


If I were to address every fallacy that Mr Margiani has posted it would now be on page 8!
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« Reply #82 on: 01/02/2009 21:16:36 »
Do you think we'd get four pages out of Freddy Mercury ate my hamster?

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« Reply #83 on: 01/02/2009 21:51:18 »
Shouldn't that be Freddy Star, or are you just banking on the fact that dead people can't sue for libel?
Freddy is (or at least claimed at the time to be) vegetarian.
It's not important; all the evidence says it's nonsense and there's practically nobody would ever have believed it.

The trouble is I'm not sure which story I'm describing; Atlantis or the Hamster.
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« Reply #84 on: 01/02/2009 23:44:40 »
LOL
Never was good at names.
But either Freddy would serve.

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The Atlantis City is DISCOVERED!
« Reply #85 on: 09/02/2009 12:58:20 »
The Atlantis City is DISCOVERED!
The Azores Triple Junction is a geologic triple junction where the boundaries of three tectonic plates intersect: the North American Plate, the Eurasian Plate and the African Plate. This triple junction is located along the Mid-Atlantic Ridge amidst the Azores islands, nearly due west of the Straits of Gibraltar. It is classed as a R-R-R triple junction, "T" type (for its shape), as it is an intersection of the Mid-Atlantic Ridge running north-south and the Terceira Rift which runs east-southeast.
The Azores-Gibraltar Transform Fault, also called the Azores-Gibraltar fault zone (AGFZ), is a major geologic fault which runs eastward from the eastern end of the Terceira Rift in the Azores, extending through the Strait of Gibraltar and into the Mediterranean Sea. It forms part of the tectonic boundary between the Eurasian Plate and the African Plate. The extension east of the Strait of Gibraltar is poorly understood and is currently regarded as a "diffuse" boundary. Somewhere in the vicinity of the Italian Peninsula, many geologists believe the fault connects with a subduction zone where the African Plate is slowly subducting beneath the Eurasian Plate.
[attachment=6782]

The approximately coordinates of the central temple: Latitude: 37 N, Longitude: 24 W.
« Last Edit: 09/02/2009 13:03:27 by K.Margiani »
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The Atlantis City is DISCOVERED!
« Reply #86 on: 09/02/2009 13:52:18 »
Is it possible to zoom in further, so we can see the cities?

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The Atlantis City is DISCOVERED!
« Reply #87 on: 09/02/2009 14:13:50 »
Is it possible to zoom in further, so we can see the cities?
Through the Google; Latitude: 37:19 N, Longitude: 24:58 W.
If serious, there is treasure of the mankind!

I'm looking for that all my life!
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Offline dentstudent

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« Reply #88 on: 09/02/2009 14:17:48 »
I'm looking for that all my life!

What a  waste!

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Photonic Gravity - Deleted by BenV at 2009-02-09 18:12:27
« Reply #89 on: 09/02/2009 14:24:02 »
Hello Vern!
I discovered the Atlantis City! Sorry Vern only the graveyard! 3/4 of the Golden City is covered by thickest magma layers.
Through the Google; Latitude: 37:19 N, Longitude: 24:58 W.
If serious, there is covered treasure of the mankind!

I'm looking for that all my life!

[attachment=6789]
« Last Edit: 09/02/2009 14:34:02 by K.Margiani »
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« Reply #90 on: 09/02/2009 14:56:37 »

If serious, there is treasure of the mankind!

Treasure! Do you mean Gold and Diamonds?
Are you happy to share the knowledge of this treasure with mankind?
Should you not be keeping the treasure so you can fund further research?

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Photonic Gravity - Deleted by BenV at 2009-02-09 18:12:46
« Reply #91 on: 09/02/2009 15:42:59 »
How did you manage to discover it? Ok; I see; Google Earth. I'll take a look.
« Last Edit: 09/02/2009 15:45:46 by Vern »

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Offline Vern

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« Reply #92 on: 09/02/2009 16:10:03 »
I went to the location with Google Earth, but couldn't make out any detail. It looked like open ocean; however the bottom floor map showed an elevation table that might be the size of a small continent.

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« Reply #93 on: 09/02/2009 16:34:06 »
There is seen half circle only.Diameter of the Golden City was about 100km (5 stade = 92 km)
we can observe central point of the temple. Of course everything, by thick petrified magma and sedimentary layer is covered.

- In the capital of Atlantis there was a grove of Poseidon (Crit. 117b) and the temple of Poseidon consisted of gold, silver, ivory and orichalcum(processed copper’s surface with imitation of the gold). In the temple was monument sculpture Poseidon standing in a chariot drawn by six winged horses, surrounded by dolphins. Thus, if Atlantis City really ever existed, modern coordinates of the golden temple which lies beneath the ocean are that; Latitude: 37:19N, Longitude: 24:58W.
 
[attachment=6791]
« Last Edit: 09/02/2009 16:42:09 by K.Margiani »
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« Reply #94 on: 09/02/2009 16:51:59 »
There is seen half circle only.Diameter of the Golden City was about 100km (5 stade = 92 km)
we can observe central point of the temple. Of course everything, by thick petrified magma and sedimentary layer is covered.

- In the capital of Atlantis there was a grove of Poseidon (Crit. 117b) and the temple of Poseidon consisted of gold, silver, ivory and orichalcum(processed copper’s surface with imitation of the gold). In the temple was monument sculpture Poseidon standing in a chariot drawn by six winged horses, surrounded by dolphins. Thus, if Atlantis City really ever existed, modern coordinates of the golden temple which lies beneath the ocean are that; Latitude: 37:19N, Longitude: 24:58W.

[attachment=6793]
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« Reply #95 on: 09/02/2009 16:58:50 »
Okay; that looks interesting. The sea-floor ridges resemble a giant caldera in that area.

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« Reply #96 on: 09/02/2009 17:05:56 »
There is survived quarter plane only. A Caldera has not similar plane as well as central strange point!
You can not ever find in a caldera something like this!
"This part of the island looked towards the south, and was sheltered from the north."
« Last Edit: 09/02/2009 17:18:08 by K.Margiani »
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« Reply #97 on: 09/02/2009 18:09:46 »
MOD - I have merged this with the other atlantis thread - please keep all discussion of your hypothesis to one thread, otherwise we'll have duplicated discussions going on all over the place. Any new threads on the same topic will be deleted.
« Last Edit: 09/02/2009 18:11:46 by BenV »

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« Reply #98 on: 09/02/2009 18:11:47 »
I'll get Google Earth going and look around the area some more.

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« Reply #99 on: 10/02/2009 05:36:18 »
Carl - you raise some interesting points. Unfortunately I know nothing about geology.

I shall digest the rest of what you wrote and regurgitate my musings on it later  [:D]

Well, DocBeaver. The three points of data really had nothing to do with geology, directly. Though they may have been caused by the subsidence of Atlantis, if such a place existed.

I offered PROOF that something BIG happened ~9600 BCE (the year Plato's legendary island empire sank), and these three points of evidence support that subsidence. And not one comment? Hmmm-m-m! Come on guys and gals! Proof! Doesn't that provoke something of the scientist in you?  [;)]

Two points of evidence were climatic (one with help from a geological event somewhere -- volcanic in nature), but from different disciplines. The third point was from oceanographic data, but biological in nature.

Scientists have puzzled about the abrupt ending to the Younger Dryas mini-Ice Age (1300 years of return to Ice Age conditions). A mega-tsunami from the tectonic collapse of a Texas-sized plot of land could have created  the necessary disturbance to the conditions that created the YD in the first place.

A moderately large volcanic trace in the Greenland ice cores shows that there was some volcanic activity at the time Atlantis supposedly sank. This wind-blown precipitation may have originated from a geological event, but the evidence is from climatic research. The volcanic activity apparently continued for roughly another two years or so. Could we expect the Azores region (volcanic for millions of years) to have erupted with the collapse of Atlantis (assuming that was the region where the island empire existed)?

A two-meter drop in sea level worldwide! Calculate the volume of ocean water displaced by a Texas-sized plot of land (I actually used 1.5 x Texas) and assume an average drop of 3000 meters. Now spread this over the connected oceans and seas of the world and you get roughly two meters. Two meters apparently were taken from all the oceans and seas to fill the void left by some tectonic collapse.

Atlantis? The dates match! For all four events.

These three data points from oceanographic and climatic data do not prove Atlantis. Heck, they could be three unrelated events. We don't yet have a corpus delicti, but we now seem to have a smoking gun. Interested?

LoneStar77
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