How do Trees Really lift Water to their Leaves?

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Offline BenV

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Re: How do Trees Really lift Water to their Leaves?
« Reply #300 on: 07/07/2009 12:02:11 »
Andrew - I don't expect to see a comment like that from you again.  If you can't defend the science, do not attack the person.

Maybe you should try to take him on on his own terms?  i.e. using facts and figures to support your argument?

I should warn you, Sophie comes out of this conversation as looking a lot more reasonable than you.

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Offline Bored chemist

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Re: How do Trees Really lift Water to their Leaves?
« Reply #301 on: 07/07/2009 14:58:47 »
Andrew,
Perhaps you would like to answer the same question you asked of sophiecentaur.

What have you actually achieved? I mean real achievemnets rather than hypotheses that are not well supported by evidence, so nothing that isn't going to be written off as a coincidence.
(I'm not, BTW, claiming that my epitaph will be anything special, but since Andrew asked...)
Please disregard all previous signatures.

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Offline BenV

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Re: How do Trees Really lift Water to their Leaves?
« Reply #302 on: 07/07/2009 15:06:28 »
BC, I understand the retort - it was an offensive and inflammatory thing for Andrew to have said - but I don't feel this line of conversation will benefit the forum.  All it will lead to is hurt feelings and this thread being locked.

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Offline Andrew K Fletcher

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Re: How do Trees Really lift Water to their Leaves?
« Reply #303 on: 07/07/2009 16:07:38 »
I don't see anything wrong with my comment. It was written to point out that to be remembered it is not enough to cross the T's and dot the I's. Original thinking is what counts!

B.C. I will be remembered for my contribution to understanding circulation in trees and plants, but also for relating the same principles to circulation in animals and humans.

I will also be remembered for my experiments with water filled tubes at Brixham and for applying a great deal of common sense to how correct posture over long periods can beneficially influence the body.

My question still stands. How many gravestones have you found with a list of qualifications etched into them?

Andrew - I don't expect to see a comment like that from you again.  If you can't defend the science, do not attack the person.

Maybe you should try to take him on on his own terms?  i.e. using facts and figures to support your argument?

I should warn you, Sophie comes out of this conversation as looking a lot more reasonable than you.
Science is continually evolving. Nothing is set in stone. Question everything and everyone. Always consider vested interests as a reason for miss-direction. But most of all explore and find answers that you are comfortable with

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Offline BenV

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Re: How do Trees Really lift Water to their Leaves?
« Reply #304 on: 07/07/2009 16:15:04 »
Andrew, the problem is not that you do not have certificates to say you can do something, the problem is that you are not qualified because you do not tackle the hard facts of the issue, i.e. the energy calculations etc, in short, the maths.

At present, you may be remembered by people here as finding something interesting, but then sticking arrogantly to a hypothesis that does not add up.  Not a grand achievement.  Wouldn't it be better to be thought of as someone who developed a hypothesis that added to science?  Or someone who took criticism well and thoroughly answered the questions of all his critics, collaborating and working well with people?

Does it not concern you that many people here do not think you are correct?  Even after years?  If you are correct, you should be able to prove it to them, in their language, using a full understanding of the science involved.  You have either chosen not to bother, or you can't do so and refuse to ask for help, or you know that your hypothesis does not stand up to scrutiny.  Which one is it, Andrew?

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Offline Andrew K Fletcher

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Re: How do Trees Really lift Water to their Leaves?
« Reply #305 on: 07/07/2009 16:21:56 »
The one that it is is not listed there. It is test the experiments for yourself and see for yourselves how a tiny amount of salt can move many times it's own volume around simple tubular experiments.

My critics can't be bothered to repeat these simple experiments and would rather believe that leaves on trees can somehow suck water up to well over a hundred metres vertically. The trees can't do this any more than a powerful pump coud do it, so why do we keep churning out this garbage when it is unsupported? This is what led me to question the literature and quite rightly so!
Science is continually evolving. Nothing is set in stone. Question everything and everyone. Always consider vested interests as a reason for miss-direction. But most of all explore and find answers that you are comfortable with

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Offline BenV

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Re: How do Trees Really lift Water to their Leaves?
« Reply #306 on: 07/07/2009 16:31:00 »
So it's everyone else's fault?

They do not have time, enthusiasm or facilities to do your experiments - it is your responsibility to put it in a language that they can understand and either accept or further question.

You've also missed the point again - it's not the results that cause controversy, it's the explanation and extension to plants and animals.

THIS IS YOUR RESPONSIBILITY ANDREW - DO THE REAL SCIENCE AND EITHER YOUR CRITICS, OR YOUR HYPOTHESIS, WILL FALL.  REFUSE TO DO THE REAL SCIENCE AND YOU FAIL YOURSELF AT THE FIRST HURDLE.


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Offline Andrew K Fletcher

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Re: How do Trees Really lift Water to their Leaves?
« Reply #307 on: 07/07/2009 16:41:08 »
Remember Ben,
I read the GCSE Biology book by D.G. Mackean to find an answer to what trees were doing with salts, approaching the question of fluid transport in plants and trees with an open mind, a mind that vaguely remembered the biology lessons from many years ago “too many years ago”.

None of it made sense to either me or Don Mackean who wrote the book.

This led to the hypothesis about a density flow rather than the pathetic explanations, which incidentally are still adhered to even though no one has demonstrated any working model. The experiments followed after the hypothesis, not to add credence but to test the density flow and to test the 10 meter limit also referred to inside the same text book.

The initial experiments, the ones before the Brixham experiment were attended by a very proficient physicist and dear friend “Adrian Van Sweden” who gave me lot’s of reasons why the experiment would fail and then lot’s of questions about why it did not fail together with sitting on a step with his hands over his eyes shaking his head saying repeatedly “this is not possible” “Why was this never mentioned in the literature?” “Why do I find it so hard to accept?” Adrian also helped with the Brixham Experiments. He was also a former engineer for South West Water and a person who found a great deal of benefit from sleeping inclined, recovering circulation to his feet, toes, hands, fingers, lips, nose which were blue due to a heart defect and metal valve which incidentally could be heard missing beats at night while sleeping flat and should, according to a doctor we met have fibrillation, adding all metal valves have fibrillation, yet Adrian’s didn’t anymore!

Most of my time over the years has been spent helping people to recover from a range of illnesses. I have found it both rewarding and intriguing and far more useful than trying to convince some people who obviously do not want to be convinced of anything outside of the convenient box.
Science is continually evolving. Nothing is set in stone. Question everything and everyone. Always consider vested interests as a reason for miss-direction. But most of all explore and find answers that you are comfortable with

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Offline Andrew K Fletcher

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Re: How do Trees Really lift Water to their Leaves?
« Reply #308 on: 07/07/2009 16:41:31 »
The experiments came after the hypothesis not the other way around
Science is continually evolving. Nothing is set in stone. Question everything and everyone. Always consider vested interests as a reason for miss-direction. But most of all explore and find answers that you are comfortable with

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Offline Andrew K Fletcher

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Re: How do Trees Really lift Water to their Leaves?
« Reply #309 on: 07/07/2009 16:44:42 »
Ben, given the fact that most schools and colleges have a  budget that could easily afford a bit of plastic tubing, a length of strong string to pull the experiment up, a pinch of salt and a couple of empty bottles, it is hardly a question of resources now is it?

So it's everyone else's fault?

They do not have time, enthusiasm or facilities to do your experiments - it is your responsibility to put it in a language that they can understand and either accept or further question.

You've also missed the point again - it's not the results that cause controversy, it's the explanation and extension to plants and animals.

THIS IS YOUR RESPONSIBILITY ANDREW - DO THE REAL SCIENCE AND EITHER YOUR CRITICS, OR YOUR HYPOTHESIS, WILL FALL.  REFUSE TO DO THE REAL SCIENCE AND YOU FAIL YOURSELF AT THE FIRST HURDLE.


Science is continually evolving. Nothing is set in stone. Question everything and everyone. Always consider vested interests as a reason for miss-direction. But most of all explore and find answers that you are comfortable with

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Offline BenV

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Re: How do Trees Really lift Water to their Leaves?
« Reply #310 on: 07/07/2009 16:48:38 »
I have found it both rewarding and intriguing and far more useful than trying to convince some people who obviously do not want to be convinced of anything outside of the convenient box.

Then what are you doing still here?  If your science is accurate, it's already inside the box.  If you can't be bothered, then why are you still here?

If you are right, you WILL be able to convince everyone here.  If you can't be arsed, then you must accept that people will assume you are wrong - and they are right to do so.

The experiments came after the hypothesis not the other way around

I know, you have said before.  If I hypothesised that there are tiny monkeys in the soil, and they they love my shoes so much that will attract my shoes towards them, I could then do the experiment of moving my shoes away from the soil and seeing in which direction they fall.  My experiment would prove that the soil monkeys love my shoes.

Clearly, I'm being ridiculous.

Only you can explain this and have it accepted.  On this board you have several intelligent people with sceptical attitudes who would be able to help you.  If you answered each and every one of their questions with the relevant data or calculations, you would either find that your hypothesis is flawed, or that their scepticism would pass.

You chose not to do so.  You chose to be offended by their (perfectly understandable) attitude instead.  If this were a game, you lose.

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Offline BenV

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Re: How do Trees Really lift Water to their Leaves?
« Reply #311 on: 07/07/2009 16:50:27 »
Ben, given the fact that most schools and colleges have a  budget that could easily afford a bit of plastic tubing, a length of strong string to pull the experiment up, a pinch of salt and a couple of empty bottles, it is hardly a question of resources now is it?

Andrew, the current explanation may be wrong.  That's fine.  Your explanation may well be correct, but is not strong enough to take it's place.  If you make it strong enough, it will become accepted, and perhaps that is how people will teach this in the future.

You refuse to make it strong enough.

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Offline rosy

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Re: How do Trees Really lift Water to their Leaves?
« Reply #312 on: 08/07/2009 10:09:08 »
Andrew

WE DO NOT QUESTION YOUR PHYSICAL, EXPERIMENTAL RESULTS, SO WHY SHOULD WE ATTEMPT TO REPLICATE THEM?

WE CAN EXPLAIN THEM USING THE CONVENTIONAL THEORY

YOU HAVE NOT SHOWN THAT YOUR NEW THEORY EXPLAINS *ANYTHING* BETTER THAN THE CURRENT ONE

YOU WILL HAVE TO DO SOME ******* MATHS

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Offline Bored chemist

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Re: How do Trees Really lift Water to their Leaves?
« Reply #313 on: 08/07/2009 14:11:52 »
Re. "B.C. I will be remembered for my contribution to understanding circulation in trees and plants, but also for relating the same principles to circulation in animals and humans."
I wouldn't bet on it.
For example the stuff you posted about the kidney here
http://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?topic=17612.0
 is not consistent with observations of the densities of the fluids involved.
The experiments you did show nothing that cannot be explained in terms of the established models of physics and nothing that you have done is backed up by maths or double-blind trials as apropriate.
Please disregard all previous signatures.

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Offline Andrew K Fletcher

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Re: How do Trees Really lift Water to their Leaves?
« Reply #314 on: 08/07/2009 21:20:06 »
BC don't make me laugh. Please my ribs are aching as it is. Double blind study? Who is going to do this when it flies in the face of the literature they depend upon so much.
Science is continually evolving. Nothing is set in stone. Question everything and everyone. Always consider vested interests as a reason for miss-direction. But most of all explore and find answers that you are comfortable with

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Offline BenV

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Re: How do Trees Really lift Water to their Leaves?
« Reply #315 on: 08/07/2009 22:35:46 »
BC don't make me laugh. Please my ribs are aching as it is. Double blind study? Who is going to do this when it flies in the face of the literature they depend upon so much.
Don't use this as an excuse for not doing the science you could otherwise do.

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lyner

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Re: How do Trees Really lift Water to their Leaves?
« Reply #316 on: 08/07/2009 23:25:18 »
AKF. You are tilting at windmills here. No one on any of these threads seems to have doubted your experimental results so why should we need to repeat your experiments?  What everyone is disagreeing with is your nonsense explanations. This forum is blind to qualifications and past achievements. You might be surprised to hear what some of us HAVE  actually achieved. We mostly comment on the sense of what we read in these posts. There is no place for inverted technical snobbery. Your claim to being RIGHT just because of your lack of 'qualifications' makes no sense at all.
You quote GCSE level as if that is the sum total of human knowledge. That's plain daft. There are more shortcomings to the School Science curriculum than you've had hot dinners but that is irrelevant to the sense or otherwise of your ideas.
It is also strange that you use the opinions of your own  'expert' to support your ideas but reject the opinions of other experts. That's all a bit selective, isn't it?

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Offline Bored chemist

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Re: How do Trees Really lift Water to their Leaves?
« Reply #317 on: 09/07/2009 19:39:30 »
BC don't make me laugh. Please my ribs are aching as it is. Double blind study? Who is going to do this when it flies in the face of the literature they depend upon so much.
OK, so that's your excuse for not doing bouble blind trials (not a very impressive one but...) .

What's your excuse for totally failing to do the maths?
What's your excuse for persisting with ideas that simply don't hold water when someone else looks at the numbers?


As things stand, if someone took up your ideas and ran with them and they actually turned out to be right then your epitaph might well be "Had some ideas about so-and-so but hadn't the abillity to follow it up with a proper explanation or investigation".
Please disregard all previous signatures.

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Offline Andrew K Fletcher

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Re: How do Trees Really lift Water to their Leaves?
« Reply #318 on: 10/07/2009 10:38:33 »
It's not an excuse it's an observation of over 15 years of observing how people go back on their words and fail for whatever reason they can come up with to carry out this simple repeatable study. Why do you think this is B.C et al? Who stands to gain when this therapy is eventually made mainstream? And make no mistake it will be! But who stands to lose the most money when many drug companies and charities and surgeons and doctors find their services are no longer as important as people currently believe them to be? Do you think for one minute I have not been to Universities, Sleep Therapy Centres, Dr’s Surgeries, Hospitals, Colleges, Secondary Schools, Spinal Units, Members Of parliament, Editors of Journals, Science Forums, Television, Radio, Newspapers, Private meetings with surgeons nurses and doctors, argued and shown exactly how this therapy works in front of professionals in charge of caring for people dying including my own Father?

Make no mistake B.C I know who and what I am up against!

The numbers is not quite as simple as Sophie makes it out to be, and I need some help to make certain that everything is taken into account including all of the observations from the experiments.

For example: A tree grows slowly and is filled with fluids from the onset so does not require fluids to be lifted to the leaves as per Sophies rope and bucket analogy. But does require an understanding of why adhesion and cohesion enables the water to remain inside the tree even when the leaves have fallen in deciduous trees. My understanding of this, again based upon observations rather than plucking out of thin air is that the density based circulation provides a mechanism for keeping the tree not only topped up but is more than capable of providing an ever increasing head of water enabling the tree to continue growing away from the soil by adding an upward positive pressure at the tips of branches as well as providing a positive pressure to the phloem and a negative tension to the xylem that reaches from the roots to the water molecules in the soil. It is this incredible bonding quality of water that enables the tree to draw water to it’s roots from the soil and circulate it up to the leaves and back to the roots. Circulation is the key word here. Plants like ourselves and many other species do not lift water but circulate water! Circulating may require a pulley block and rope with buckets on it to understand it but not in the sense that it begins as an ampty

Raising the tube experiment from ground level to 24 metres over 10-15 years would not replicate the adhesive or cohesive structure of the tree either and would fail because the experiment is not designed to show an exact structure of a tree but to show how water can remain suspended in a tube over twice the height limit thought possible in physics and circulate fluids.

What I really wanted to hear in the forum was and is offers to help rather than offers to hinder progress. Dave Short did offer to help. Without the experiments being replicated it is infuriatingly difficult to show in words what is happening, in particular with the elasticity of water and tension.

Good News

A now retired doctor and physicist who I met some 15 years ago and who said then all those years ago he would be able to jointly write these experiments up for publication has again confirmed that his help will be forthcoming. This is what is needed: Practical sound advice and guidance. This is what makes a person stand out from the crowd!


This same doctor said after meeting me in person, at a University, as he looked out of his window: “today for the first time I truly understand a tree” without even seeing the experiments!

I have also said this and so have many academics and teachers.


OK, so that's your excuse for not doing bouble blind trials (not a very impressive one but...) .

What's your excuse for totally failing to do the maths?
What's your excuse for persisting with ideas that simply don't hold water when someone else looks at the numbers?


As things stand, if someone took up your ideas and ran with them and they actually turned out to be right then your epitaph might well be "Had some ideas about so-and-so but hadn't the abillity to follow it up with a proper explanation or investigation".
« Last Edit: 10/07/2009 10:45:10 by Andrew K Fletcher »
Science is continually evolving. Nothing is set in stone. Question everything and everyone. Always consider vested interests as a reason for miss-direction. But most of all explore and find answers that you are comfortable with

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lyner

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Re: How do Trees Really lift Water to their Leaves?
« Reply #319 on: 10/07/2009 23:11:13 »
Quote
Make no mistake B.C I know who and what I am up against!
Quite frankly, AKF, as far as I can see, you are up against yourself. If you really wanted to make this work then you would actually use history to help you instead of trying to play the tragic hero.
You don't read what anyone has written in these recent posts. You argue in one direction when the issue is in another direction. Has anyone doubted that you have seen results from your therapy experiments? Has anyone doubted the Brixham results?
What do you want to be 'remembered for', someone who found out something which could have been useful or someone who demonstrated just how wrong it's possible to be when you ignore all the facts?
I think you are reveling in all this opposition rather than trying to learn anything from what people have written.
Do you really think that the people on this forum are ruled by vested interests? You are exactly the same as the creationists and the Moon Landing Conspiracy proponents. The truth is clearly too complicated for you to understand so you have to make up your own home brewed ideas instead.
Such a shame. You want to be the one man in History who produced a brand new Science, all on his own. Everyone's out of step but you.

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Offline Andrew K Fletcher

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Re: How do Trees Really lift Water to their Leaves?
« Reply #320 on: 11/07/2009 05:45:31 »
So wrong and so far off the mark about where this is heading Sophie. I do learn from you and others, my lesson might not go in the direction you anticipate but that is the problem with people who think laterally rather than a blinkered approach.

I have taken on board all of the posts and let's face it they are available for reflection and are being read by the doctor who has agreed to help with the paper. The real shame is that the significance of all of this appears to go over your heads.

You said science does not suck in that it can be explained better by pressure changes. The cohesion tension theory has an elaborate explanation stating that as one water molecule leaves the tree to the atmosphere another is drawn up to replace it. Well blow me if this was the case we would have water spurting out of the tops of buildings filled with cavity wall insulation and all of the water would leave the top of the tree rather than the observed source to sink flow.

Picture a deciduous tree in Autumn with all of it's leaves on the ground standing 40-50 metres as naked as a newborn. The cohesion tension theory states evaporation from the leaves causes water to be sucked up, SUCKED being the appropriate term for one molecule replacing another in a vertical chain from root to leaf. Well blow me again there are no leaves to suck here yet the buds begin to burst in the upper most branches during the spring. How does your precious historic science deal with this obvious anti-suck observation? It can’t can it? Only a density change be it from the warming of the outside of the tree or from the release of stored salts and sugars or even a combination of both can explain this new burst of life in what is after all a multiple conduit system consisting of predominantly non living tubular cells.

Another argument is that the collective pull of the densely leaved canopy can account for the impressive heights of trees. Well blow me again there are many trees locally that have very little canopy yet continue to grow vertically and have done so for some 21 years. Larch being a prime example.

The problem science is having at the moment is accepting that trees do not suck water up and emit it to the atmosphere, they circulate sap and some of it is emitted to the atmosphere and as a result of the water loss inevitable density changes take place!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
« Last Edit: 11/07/2009 05:50:34 by Andrew K Fletcher »
Science is continually evolving. Nothing is set in stone. Question everything and everyone. Always consider vested interests as a reason for miss-direction. But most of all explore and find answers that you are comfortable with

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lyner

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Re: How do Trees Really lift Water to their Leaves?
« Reply #321 on: 11/07/2009 09:43:14 »
No Science in all that. I'm afraid. You can relate as many instances as you like but that constitutes no proof of any principles.
In your circulation theory, would you be able to discuss the actual quantities involved? How much goes out at the top and how much goes down again (and then where does it go, laden with all these salts?).
Try thinking things through to their conclusion rather than giving us more purple passages.

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Offline BenV

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Re: How do Trees Really lift Water to their Leaves?
« Reply #322 on: 11/07/2009 10:13:54 »
Well blow me if this was the case we would have water spurting out of the tops of buildings filled with cavity wall insulation...
That's simply not true, is it?  If you really think that, they you do not have a grasp of the physics involved at all.

I'm with sophie, and pretty much everyone else.  We're bored of your waffle - do some science instead.

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Offline Andrew K Fletcher

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Re: How do Trees Really lift Water to their Leaves?
« Reply #323 on: 12/07/2009 09:32:32 »
Cohesion tension theory states transpiration pulls on verticle columns of water dragging it up to the leaves from the soil! How? Why can't we see a model? Why should introducing a density change at the roots (adding salt to the soil) stop this imaginary process?

Why do the leaves bother to fall from the tree in the Autumn if they are so efficient at dragging water from the ground?

All answers welcome, here is a chance to do some "science"

Ben was speaking metaphorically about the constraints of the cohesion tension theory as it stands. Not literally but yes according to the tension theory if a brick evaporates water it should aslo apply the same tension to the water below so stacking one brick onto another should cause rising damp to travel to the tops of walls but it clearly does nothing of the kind.

If you are bored BenV, perhaps you should read something more interesting :)

Science is continually evolving. Nothing is set in stone. Question everything and everyone. Always consider vested interests as a reason for miss-direction. But most of all explore and find answers that you are comfortable with

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Offline Bored chemist

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Re: How do Trees Really lift Water to their Leaves?
« Reply #324 on: 12/07/2009 19:13:15 »


All answers welcome, here is a chance to do some "science"

Not literally but yes according to the tension theory if a brick evaporates water it should aslo apply the same tension to the water below so stacking one brick onto another should cause rising damp to travel to the tops of walls but it clearly does nothing of the kind.

If you cover the walls with a layer of waterproof material (I can't say I have tried tree bark- but it would be interesting) then that's exactly what happens. The water soaks up to the top and evaporates there.
Of course, without that cover, it evaporates before it reaches the top.
Scince is based on observation. My observation is that your assertion is false.
This tends to suport (though it does not prove) the opposite viewpoint.
In effect you have just proved your own ideas to be faulty.

Please disregard all previous signatures.

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lyner

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Re: How do Trees Really lift Water to their Leaves?
« Reply #325 on: 12/07/2009 22:21:09 »
AKF
Why do you introduce a nonsense question about why trees "bother" to shed [edit] leaves.
If large leaves were not shed they would rupture in frost and let infection enter. Any connection with your theory is spurious (not for the first time).
« Last Edit: 13/07/2009 10:29:54 by sophiecentaur »

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lyner

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Re: How do Trees Really lift Water to their Leaves?
« Reply #326 on: 13/07/2009 10:42:24 »
AFK
Quote
A tree grows slowly and is filled with fluids from the onset so does not require fluids to be lifted to the leaves as per Sophies rope and bucket analogy

I just re-read this comment. Do you not see what rubbish it is? If a tree is 30m high, it GREW there. All materials needed to be lifted up there during the growing process. How long it took is irrelevant to the energy needed.

How can you expect to be taken seriously when you misunderstand elementary things like that?

If you accept that Energy is conserved in chemical and physical processes then you need to apply that principle in all of your ideas. You can't pick and choose what Science to use and what not to use. It's a consistent package - not mumbo jumbo, like your ideas.


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Offline Andrew K Fletcher

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Re: How do Trees Really lift Water to their Leaves?
« Reply #327 on: 15/07/2009 20:32:30 »
Circulation of fluids is what counts as the tree grows, the tree maintains circulation using density changes caused by evaporation.

HOW ON EARTH CAN A TREE EVAPORATE WATER WITHOUT ALTERING THE DENSITY OF THE SAP inside the leaves and branches? does the tree somehow magically whisp the density away? Does it someohow suck sufficient water in from the atmosphere to replace the water it loses?

If 98% of all the water drawn through the roots evaporates through the leaves and the water inside the leaves contains a solution of sugar and salts surely some concentration of said salts and sugars will take place! Why have our learned bretheren overlooked something so blatantly obvious? Common sense lacking?

Easy question here...........



AFK
Quote
A tree grows slowly and is filled with fluids from the onset so does not require fluids to be lifted to the leaves as per Sophies rope and bucket analogy

I just re-read this comment. Do you not see what rubbish it is? If a tree is 30m high, it GREW there. All materials needed to be lifted up there during the growing process. How long it took is irrelevant to the energy needed.

How can you expect to be taken seriously when you misunderstand elementary things like that?

If you accept that Energy is conserved in chemical and physical processes then you need to apply that principle in all of your ideas. You can't pick and choose what Science to use and what not to use. It's a consistent package - not mumbo jumbo, like your ideas.


Science is continually evolving. Nothing is set in stone. Question everything and everyone. Always consider vested interests as a reason for miss-direction. But most of all explore and find answers that you are comfortable with

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Offline BenV

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Re: How do Trees Really lift Water to their Leaves?
« Reply #328 on: 15/07/2009 22:27:00 »
Andrew.  Where do you think plants get the material from which to grow?

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Offline Andrew K Fletcher

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Re: How do Trees Really lift Water to their Leaves?
« Reply #329 on: 16/07/2009 07:29:13 »
Andrew.  Where do you think plants get the material from which to grow?

From the dilute solution of nutrients in the soil, water from the atmosphere, sugars from photosynthesis and carbon dioxide and oxygen from the atmosphere. http://biology.clc.uc.edu/Courses/bio104/photosyn.htm A link to refresh your memory Ben :)

Almost forgot to add some trees use bacteria to draw nitrogen from the atmosphere.
« Last Edit: 16/07/2009 08:06:41 by Andrew K Fletcher »
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Re: How do Trees Really lift Water to their Leaves?
« Reply #330 on: 16/07/2009 07:31:35 »
Now
AKF
Why do you introduce a nonsense question about why trees "bother" to shed [edit] leaves.
If large leaves were not shed they would rupture in frost and let infection enter. Any connection with your theory is spurious (not for the first time).
who is being nonsensical? How does a tree know there is about to be frost? Does it watch the BBC weather forcast as the leaves fall long before the first frost in most cases? No what happens is that increased rainfall introduces far more water into the tree diluting the sap. Coupled with huge increases in humidity and damp together with colder air causes the circulation in the tree to slow down and at times to the point of circulatory arrest. Density changes are also slowed down by a huge reduction in sunlight so again sugar production slows down and evaporation rates also slow down. Density in the sap at the leaf is reduced by the migration of solutes and nutrients away from the source to a sink causing the leaves to change colour as the tree effectively washes the life out of the leaves. Take the same tree to a more temperate climate and it seldom sheds leaves.

http://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?topic=18299.0%3Bprev_next=prev   Dentstudent answers a question on leaf shedding.
« Last Edit: 16/07/2009 07:47:23 by Andrew K Fletcher »
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Re: How do Trees Really lift Water to their Leaves?
« Reply #331 on: 16/07/2009 07:56:40 »
Interesting, so according to you, cellar walls which have a ruberoid coating or membrane on the outside and an equally waterproof coating on the inside ooze water out of the top of the membrane rather than the membrane preventing the water from entering the brickwork? I have observed this following a heavy rain by the way and attributed it to the water table level rising and water running down the outide of the building to the basement wall rather than water percolating up the membrane. Fascinating, though I must admit that a swimming pool provides an excellent example of retaining the water inside it and I have never noticed water oozing out of the soil around the outside and one would have thought this should happen based on your post content, although there may not be an external waterproof barrier on a pool. A lot of buildings do have a waterproof coating and rendered exterior.

Thinking of a way I can test your post experimentally. Though I suspect what you may be refering to is a form of evaporative sweating with condensation reaching the upper part of the coated walls. Not quite the same as active water transport but a valid point on reflection.



All answers welcome, here is a chance to do some "science"

Not literally but yes according to the tension theory if a brick evaporates water it should aslo apply the same tension to the water below so stacking one brick onto another should cause rising damp to travel to the tops of walls but it clearly does nothing of the kind.

If you cover the walls with a layer of waterproof material (I can't say I have tried tree bark- but it would be interesting) then that's exactly what happens. The water soaks up to the top and evaporates there.
Of course, without that cover, it evaporates before it reaches the top.
Scince is based on observation. My observation is that your assertion is false.
This tends to suport (though it does not prove) the opposite viewpoint.
In effect you have just proved your own ideas to be faulty.




All answers welcome, here is a chance to do some "science"

Not literally but yes according to the tension theory if a brick evaporates water it should aslo apply the same tension to the water below so stacking one brick onto another should cause rising damp to travel to the tops of walls but it clearly does nothing of the kind.
« Last Edit: 16/07/2009 08:32:59 by Andrew K Fletcher »
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Re: How do Trees Really lift Water to their Leaves?
« Reply #332 on: 16/07/2009 10:22:19 »
AKF
Quote
HOW ON EARTH CAN A TREE EVAPORATE WATER WITHOUT ALTERING THE DENSITY OF THE SAP . . . .
Did anyone say that it could? Of course there will be dense solutions at the top. The question is whether there is enough to provide the motive power mechanism you propose.

Quote
If 98% of all the water drawn through the roots evaporates . . . . . .
So you are implying that the 2%, falling can lift the 98% for transpiration? Fantastic. We have a brilliant new way of making skyscraper lifts work, for free.
You are still locked onto this circulation theory with not a single numerical reason to justify it. If the numbers don't tally, there must be another reason. But of course, Maths is just there in order to discredit  the unqualified, isn't it?

Quote
Easy question here
An easy question but no answer, apparently, from you.

Quote
How does a tree know there is about to be frost? Does it watch the BBC weather forcast as the leaves fall long before the first frost in most cases?
You discredit yourself here, yet again.  If a tree could react quickly enough to avoid the damage of a chance frost then that would be a great energetic advantage - it would not have to grow more leaves after a mild winter. The action has to be taken in order to be on the safe side and it gets its clues from day length and night temperatures. Evergreen trees which survive extreme cold have other strategies than dropping leaves. They are subjected to exactly the same rainfall etc. as their deciduous neighbours - why don't their leaves fall of, according to you? Take a tree to a different climate and it may well react differently - but, if a species is to survive, this reaction will still be 'on the safe side'. Many equatorial trees will die if you put them in an English garden with English frosts, despite the fact that they get the same rainfall as the native plants - they will not drop their leaves deciduously but suffer from 'leaf drop' through injury by the cold.
If the leaf shedding strategy were not to protect against frost then why does it not occur so much in warmer climates?  During the monsoon, for instance. Autumns in the Eastern Seaboard of the USA are dry but the leaves are still shed.
But I don't see why you even introduced this line of thought. It is very typical that you don't deal with an objection - you just divert the flow of the argument.

BTW, it would help a lot if you posted your quotes before your replies, rather than after them. You launch into a tirade before declaring what you object to.

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Re: How do Trees Really lift Water to their Leaves?
« Reply #334 on: 17/07/2009 00:13:01 »
BC
That wiki page is not supported by references. There are better sources but few academic ones. I was looking.

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Re: How do Trees Really lift Water to their Leaves?
« Reply #335 on: 17/07/2009 09:37:53 »
Andrew,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Damp-proof_course

http://www.buildingpreservation.com/evaluating%20chemical%20dpcs2.htm here is a better one showing the level of rising damp. Not quite a hundred meters or more vertically and it does mention the salts from soil water being concentrated by evaporation.

From another source on rising damp.

The height to which the water will rise depends on
several factors including pore structure and rate of
evaporation. Masonry containing a high proporation of
fine pores will allow the water to rise higher than a coarse
pored material; basically the water is carried up the wall
in the finer pores and not those of large diameter. The
average size of pores in masonry gives a theoretical rise
of around 1.5 meters but where evaporation is severely
retarded, for example by the use of impervious
membranes, moisture can sometimes rise in excess of
2 metres.

capilary action was discussed earlier in this thread and the flow rates observed in trees could not be addressed, neither could the height of trees be considered when using capillary action. And the final objection is the dependency on capillary action of the diameter of the vessels. The diameter of the tubular cells in trees is often much greater than the fine capillary tubes used to demonstrate even a modest lift.

I have been photographing some tall trees that have a relatively few leaves yet appear to draw water from the ground for many years and are unaffected by their inherant lack of leaves.

How can the cohesion tension "hypothesis" address this serious and obvious flaw? Quite clearly it sucks in more than one aspect. I await your reply in it's defence.

« Last Edit: 17/07/2009 16:46:51 by Andrew K Fletcher »
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Offline rosy

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Re: How do Trees Really lift Water to their Leaves?
« Reply #336 on: 17/07/2009 11:03:56 »
How can your theory that all drawing of water from the ground requires evaporation at the leaves to provide a density flow address this serious and obvious flaw?

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Re: How do Trees Really lift Water to their Leaves?
« Reply #337 on: 17/07/2009 17:52:35 »
AFK
Quote
some tall trees that have a relatively few leaves yet appear to draw water from the ground for many years and are unaffected by their inherant lack of leaves.
Do you purposely go for the non-sequeter every time?
Fewer leaves means less transpiration, which means less water is drawn up per hour.  Each leaf transpires one leaf's worth of water. What has "for many years" got to do with it?

I understand that the capillary action idea may not be satisfactory but why does that mean that yours is anything like a viable alternative?

You have avoided, as usual, a very important question applying to your idea. How much water goes up and how much water goes down? How can such a small amount of water going down provide lift for so much going up? Doesn't mechanics work in your world? Don't all the sums about energy and work mean anything to you - and I mean quantitatively, not armwavingly?
If I said that the bicycle chain going round makes your legs move as well as the wheels, I suspect that you would say I was daft. What you are saying is the equivalent of that.

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Re: How do Trees Really lift Water to their Leaves?
« Reply #338 on: 23/07/2009 12:23:33 »
Show us how a few leaves can suck water up tubes stretching a hundred metres when we struggle to suck water up a tube a metre high.

Explain how the buds get water delivered to them when there is not a single leaf on a tree?

Explain Strasburger's observations with circulation taking place for several weeks in a tree that has every single living process killed by introducing picric acid into it at a severed trunk immersed in a bath full of the stuff.

I repeat the Cohesion tension hypothesis sucks and is nonsense and deserves it’s rightful place deep within a fictional blackhole.

Nice try on the rising damp but one that has been put forward several times over the years and in this thread capillary action was debunked as it could not address the diameters of the tubes involved and the flow rates observed, let alone the heights achieved by trees..




AKF
Quote
HOW ON EARTH CAN A TREE EVAPORATE WATER WITHOUT ALTERING THE DENSITY OF THE SAP . . . .
Did anyone say that it could? Of course there will be dense solutions at the top. The question is whether there is enough to provide the motive power mechanism you propose.

Well yes someone has said the density changes will not take place because more water will arrive to re-dilute it and take it’s place. This of course does not prevent the change in density but merely supports a circulation theory rather than a redundant one way ticket to the atmosphere hypothesis.




Quote
If 98% of all the water drawn through the roots evaporates . . . . . .

Quote
So you are implying that the 2%, falling can lift the 98% for transpiration? Fantastic. We have a brilliant new way of making skyscraper lifts work, for free.
You are still locked onto this circulation theory with not a single numerical reason to justify it. If the numbers don't tally, there must be another reason. But of course, Maths is just there in order to discredit  the unqualified, isn't it?

Well it appears to work for the Californian Redwoods and a few other magnificent specimens towering well over a hundred metres. Did anyone observe a mechanical lift used in their construction?
Science is continually evolving. Nothing is set in stone. Question everything and everyone. Always consider vested interests as a reason for miss-direction. But most of all explore and find answers that you are comfortable with

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Offline BenV

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Re: How do Trees Really lift Water to their Leaves?
« Reply #339 on: 23/07/2009 12:44:20 »
Andrew, the current explanation may be inaccurate.

Right now, yours is a long way from being complete enough to even faintly threaten it.  Stop whinging and do the science.  Start with the sums, as sophie has been asking you to do for ages.

Until you do that, you're pissing in the wind.

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Re: How do Trees Really lift Water to their Leaves?
« Reply #340 on: 23/07/2009 15:13:36 »
AFK
You seem to have got your quotes in a twist in your last post. Just WHO said WHAT??

(As sloppy with your use of the square bracket as with your use of Science).

I am still waiting for some figures to back up your nonsense. Did the redwoods just appear there or did they have to ~GROW up to that height, carrying their materials with them? (Edit)
« Last Edit: 23/07/2009 16:53:33 by sophiecentaur »

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Re: How do Trees Really lift Water to their Leaves?
« Reply #341 on: 23/07/2009 19:53:55 »
BC
That wiki page is not supported by references. There are better sources but few academic ones. I was looking.
I grant that it's not supported by references but all I needed to do was show that there is some evidence that such things exist. If Andrew wanted to he could have searched elsewhere. I would, had he asked, have sugested that he looked at the walls of his own house.

This page
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mathematics
is quite well referenced and I wonder if we could explain its importance to Andrew.
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Re: How do Trees Really lift Water to their Leaves?
« Reply #342 on: 23/07/2009 21:21:23 »
BC.
It's just mumbo jumbo, you know. It's not repeatable and you have to be a professor to use it.

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Offline _Stefan_

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Re: How do Trees Really lift Water to their Leaves?
« Reply #343 on: 24/07/2009 05:49:43 »
Why does AKF bother to post at all if he is unwilling to properly address critique?
Stefan
"No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such a kind, that its falsehood would be more miraculous than the fact which it endeavors to establish." -David Hume

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Re: How do Trees Really lift Water to their Leaves?
« Reply #344 on: 24/07/2009 20:38:17 »
I think he thrives on adverse criticism of his ideas. It saves him having to examine them too closely, himself, because he can. instead, get blindly defensive about them.

There's a lot of inverse technical snobbery there, I think.

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Re: How do Trees Really lift Water to their Leaves?
« Reply #345 on: 25/07/2009 06:58:05 »
Wonderful. And you can't ignore him either, lest people start taking him seriously.
Stefan
"No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such a kind, that its falsehood would be more miraculous than the fact which it endeavors to establish." -David Hume

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Re: How do Trees Really lift Water to their Leaves?
« Reply #346 on: 31/08/2009 13:49:46 »
Modeling xylem and phloem water flows in trees according to cohesion theory and münch hypothesis

HÖLTTÄ T. (1) ; VESALA T. (1) ; SEVANTO S. (1) ; PERÄMÄKI M. (2) ; NIKINMAA E. (2) ;

(1) Department of Physical Sciences, University of Helsinki, P.O. Box 64, 00014, FINLANDE
(2) Department of Forest Ecology, University of Helsinki, P.O. Box 24, 00014, FINLANDE
Abstract
Water and solute flows in the coupled system of xylem and phloem were modeled together with predictions for xylem and whole stem diameter changes. With the model we could produce water circulation between xylem and phloem as presented by the Münch hypothesis. Viscosity was modeled as an explicit function of solute concentration and this was found to vary the resistance of the phloem sap flow by many orders of magnitude in the possible physiological range of sap concentrations. Also, the sensitivity of the predicted phloem translocation to changes in the boundary conditions and parameters such as sugar loading, transpiration, and hydraulic conductivity were studied. The system was found to be quite sensitive to the sugar-loading rate, as too high sugar concentration, (approximately 7 MPa) would cause phloem translocation to be irreversibly hindered and soon totally blocked due to accumulation of sugar at the top of the phloem and the consequent rise in the viscosity of the phloem sap. Too low sugar loading rate, on the other hand, would not induce a sufficient axial water pressure gradient. The model also revealed the existence of Münch counter flow, i.e., xylem water flow in the absence of transpiration resulting from water circulation between the xylem and phloem. Modeled diameter changes of the stem were found to be compatible with actual stem diameter measurements from earlier studies. The diurnal diameter variation of the whole stem was approximately 0.1 mm of which the xylem constituted approximately one-third.
Revue / Journal Title
Trees   ISSN 0931-1890   CODEN TRESEY
Source / Source
2006, vol. 20, no1, pp. 67-78 [12 page(s) (article)] (43 ref.)
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Re: How do Trees Really lift Water to their Leaves?
« Reply #347 on: 31/08/2009 18:51:16 »
AKF
Very interesting but does it say anywhere that the whole thing is "driven by gravity", which is the claim you make and with which I (several of us) disagree? I don't think anyone has a problem with the idea that solutions flow around plants. I don't think you have posted anything to support the gravity idea, have you?

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Offline Andrew K Fletcher

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Re: How do Trees Really lift Water to their Leaves?
« Reply #348 on: 31/08/2009 19:12:29 »
AFK
Quote
A tree grows slowly and is filled with fluids from the onset so does not require fluids to be lifted to the leaves as per Sophies rope and bucket analogy

I just re-read this comment. Do you not see what rubbish it is? If a tree is 30m high, it GREW there. All materials needed to be lifted up there during the growing process. How long it took is irrelevant to the energy needed.

How can you expect to be taken seriously when you misunderstand elementary things like that?

If you accept that Energy is conserved in chemical and physical processes then you need to apply that principle in all of your ideas. You can't pick and choose what Science to use and what not to use. It's a consistent package - not mumbo jumbo, like your ideas.



Your blinkered approach is limiting Sophie. Circulation of fluids is all that is required, not a one way indian rope trick but a gentle rotation of fluids where the downward flow provides an increase head of flow in the return / xylem side providing the impetus for vertical growth.

The paper abstract mentions circulation when transpiration has stopped. read it.
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Re: How do Trees Really lift Water to their Leaves?
« Reply #349 on: 04/09/2009 00:12:01 »
Blinkered or careful? My question was whether the reference supports your gravity idea. If it does then you could, perhaps, cut and paste the paragraph for us.