Infinity?

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Offline simeonie

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Infinity?
« on: 29/04/2005 18:35:09 »
Is there an infinity? By that I mean does space go on forever or does it end? There can't be an end..... what do you think

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Offline neilep

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Re: Infinity?
« Reply #1 on: 29/04/2005 23:07:12 »
Infinity is just...well...it's well big. Ask my wifey, she reckons she has infinity credit on our credit card !

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Offline Ultima

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Re: Infinity?
« Reply #2 on: 30/04/2005 00:48:58 »
It's one more than the largest number that you can envisage [:D].

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Offline simeonie

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Re: Infinity?
« Reply #3 on: 30/04/2005 12:54:37 »
I dnt think you understand the question people. I am asking you if you think space ever ends or it just goes on for ever?


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Offline Deanwinfield

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Re: Infinity?
« Reply #4 on: 10/05/2005 20:36:33 »
I think space does hav limits. Red shift practically proves (in my eyes) that it is still expanding. Also i once heard that if space is infitate then there must be an infinate amount of matter. And if there is an infinate amount of matter then there is an Infinate amount of Gravity which, surely, would cause the universe to collapse on itself. Just something i read, seemed to make sense. Anyway, Hope that was a bit more on topic for you Simeonie. Good question though i love talking about this stuff!

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Offline chimera

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Re: Infinity?
« Reply #5 on: 10/05/2005 20:43:39 »
Infinities in my eyes are not really real, but mathematical abstractions. Like the hare eventually overtakes the tortoise, although all the paperwork says this is rubbish, you should sit down and take whatever medication you're on.

Like Moore's law, which predicts a doubling in processing power every umpteen months, is a statistical pattern of the stubborn variety, but not really a law. It will fail, simply becuase there is a limit to what you can do - unless you change the way you work drastically, by introducing altogether different technology. Meaning that if we shift to computing that uses quantum mechanics and light, we'd still call it a computer, but it's really a different machine.
This kind of 'inclusion' keeps Moore's law alive, naturally.

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Offline cinnamon_spider

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Re: Infinity?
« Reply #6 on: 10/05/2005 21:31:10 »
Interesting point Dean.

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Offline simeonie

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Re: Infinity?
« Reply #7 on: 10/05/2005 21:46:37 »
Dean there can't be an end to space because if there was just a wall there, there would have to be something on the other side of the wall. I think this question is a bit too big for any human mind to tackle really.

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Offline Ians Daddy

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Re: Infinity?
« Reply #8 on: 10/05/2005 23:37:50 »
My thoughts are that everything in the universe is an accumilation of spheres / circles. From atomic matter to the shape of the universe. It probably curles around and has no beginning or end. No boundries. Outside the sphere? I don't know...maybe "Heaven / Hell"? Maybe a vacuum. Nothingness, whatever that is. As dark is not dark, but merely the absence of light. Cold is the absence of heat. etc. Outside of infinity is merely the absence of infinity. Damnit, I thought I had something. Now my head hurts.
 

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Offline Deanwinfield

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Re: Infinity?
« Reply #9 on: 11/05/2005 19:47:06 »
Why can't there just be nothing there? like there was at the beginning of time...just nothingness

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Offline simeonie

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Re: Infinity?
« Reply #10 on: 12/05/2005 07:59:37 »
Well there might not be anything there and that means there is infinity..... I really think that there can't be an end to the universe. Also the Heaven and Hell thing.... well that doesnt seem right but I dnt know where heaven is I know its somewhere but I do not think it is a place as such.

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Offline neilep

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Re: Infinity?
« Reply #11 on: 12/05/2005 08:30:04 »
quote:
Originally posted by Deanwinfield

Why can't there just be nothing there? like there was at the beginning of time...just nothingness

"There is no gravity, the earth just sucks"



Isn't nothingness.......somethingness ?

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Offline Deanwinfield

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Re: Infinity?
« Reply #12 on: 12/05/2005 19:39:30 »
Perhaps our brains just cannot comprehend what is out there past. Or very much past the 4 dimensions we know about. I hope we do understand one day though, i don't see why not...we will probably get killed by something long before then though.

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Offline simeonie

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Re: Infinity?
« Reply #13 on: 15/05/2005 17:11:49 »
We will one day when we die understand it all. Do you think there is a 5th dimension then?

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Offline DoctorBeaver

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Re: Infinity?
« Reply #14 on: 23/05/2005 21:54:44 »
quote:
Originally posted by simeonie

Do you think there is a 5th dimension then?



There used to be back in the 60s. It was the name of a pop band! heh [:p]

On a more serious note, there's a theory to do with superstrings that requires there to be 27 dimensions.
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Offline chimera

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Re: Infinity?
« Reply #15 on: 23/05/2005 21:58:12 »
26. That 27th was your last drink, I think. [:)]

http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/constants.html

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Offline DoctorBeaver

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Re: Infinity?
« Reply #16 on: 23/05/2005 22:01:57 »
Hey, what's 1 dimension between friends!

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Offline chimera

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Re: Infinity?
« Reply #17 on: 23/05/2005 22:39:13 »
Now that's a singularly good point you've got there, know that?

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Offline DoctorBeaver

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Re: Infinity?
« Reply #18 on: 23/05/2005 23:56:47 »
Not bad for a man with no brane!
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Offline chimera

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Re: Infinity?
« Reply #19 on: 24/05/2005 10:07:44 »
p-braned or d-braned?
« Last Edit: 24/05/2005 10:08:05 by chimera »
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Offline Andrew K Fletcher

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Re: Infinity?
« Reply #20 on: 24/05/2005 10:24:50 »
I believe that we have not even begun to appreciate what is out there. The universe is so vast that there are countless billions of planets out there with a person just like me typing this at exactly the same time on a naked scientists forum on another internet connection in another galaxy.

Andrew
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Offline chimera

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Re: Infinity?
« Reply #21 on: 24/05/2005 11:17:59 »
quote:
Originally posted by Andrew K Fletcher

a naked scientists forum on another internet connection in another galaxy.



I think they'll find that a registered name. What galaxy exactly were you refering to? We might have to send them a friendly email, or maybe not-so friendly if they persist.

Thanks for the heads-up, anyway.

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Offline simeonie

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Re: Infinity?
« Reply #22 on: 26/05/2005 21:46:39 »
That is a really good question! The first 3 dimensions are length, width and bredth I think!

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Offline DoctorBeaver

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Re: Infinity?
« Reply #23 on: 26/05/2005 22:02:58 »
Should I point out that breadth & width are the same? The 3 Ds are length, depth & breadth[:p]
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Offline chimera

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Re: Infinity?
« Reply #24 on: 27/05/2005 19:37:30 »
Dimensions here are a bit different: they are more like 'parameters', or 'dials' on a machine. They are what is always 'there' in your model. If you talk 3-d, it's indeed l,d & b that are ALWAYS there. And if you need to describe something that is moving, time - the 4th.

But in cosmological models or particles you are not in 3-d or 4-d  space at all. There the true constants, as shown in the previous link, keep 'popping up' in your models. You cannot avoid them, it seems, or do with less.

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Offline DoctorBeaver

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Re: Infinity?
« Reply #25 on: 28/05/2005 16:14:29 »
I really wish chimera would stop doing that. It really addles my brain [V]
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Offline chimera

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Re: Infinity?
« Reply #26 on: 28/05/2005 20:21:12 »
Hey who's got the degrees and the 183 or whatever IQ? You know ALL dimensions AND their possible values of cricket, which is nothing to be sniffed at, and this model with only 26 would have you stumped? I'm lost for words - figuratively [:)]

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Offline DoctorBeaver

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Re: Infinity?
« Reply #27 on: 28/05/2005 20:38:45 »
Having degrees doesn't make me smart. It just means I can focus & have a good memory. Oh... & that I'm good at bluffing!
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Offline chimera

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Re: Infinity?
« Reply #28 on: 28/05/2005 21:04:36 »
Having mutilated my brain in such a way it will no longer accept cricket-related information does not mean I do not like games, poker is one of my old favs. Gosh, the body-language people exude without them ever knowing it. Psychologists dream, I'd say.

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Offline DoctorBeaver

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Re: Infinity?
« Reply #29 on: 28/05/2005 22:39:43 »
A large part of the art of poker is being able to read body language whether you realise you're doing it or not. That & being able to give convincing false signals. I'm rubbish at it, I keep laughing at other people's antics when they're trying to bluff. They sit back trying to look so relaxed (sometimes a tad too relaxed), but watch the muscles at the side of the mouth - twitch, tic, twitch - finger-twiddling, looking at their shoes, smoothing their hair, rubbing their nose & all sorts of other stuff that any1 who knows their business can read a mile off
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Offline chimera

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Re: Infinity?
« Reply #30 on: 30/05/2005 10:58:27 »
Realised last night that when two really good poker players' eyes meet over the table and they have sized each other up for what they are, the other players must be like the well-known 'zombies' from AI-discussions in their eyes,  people who are just going through the motions of the game, thinking they know all there is to know about it, but in fact are largely missing the point.

Kind of Poker Turing test.... [:)]

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Offline simeonie

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Re: Infinity?
« Reply #31 on: 14/06/2005 18:45:21 »
quote:
And if there is an infinate amount of matter then there is an Infinate amount of Gravity which, surely, would cause the universe to collapse on itself


I know this is an old topic now but thinking about what Dean said (above) Why would there have to be an infinate amount of gravity and an infinate amount of matter, Space is a vacum and if there is no matter when you get REALLY far away from earth then there wouldn't be an infinate amount of matter and an infinate amount of gravity.

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Offline rabeldin

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Re: Infinity?
« Reply #32 on: 25/06/2005 15:47:12 »
It turns out that

1) The observable universe has a finite diameter. It's just the farthest distance that light could travel since it all started. Anything beyond that is unobservable, so your guess is as good as mine.
2) The vacuum isn't empty at all. Stuff and anti-stuff keep popping out of it.
3) Infinity is a mathematical abstraction and doesn't really describe anything in the real  world.

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Offline simeonie

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Re: Infinity?
« Reply #33 on: 25/06/2005 20:03:39 »
maybe but what are we to know that when the distance gets further out than we can see maybe it is a TOTAL vacuum

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Offline rabeldin

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Re: Infinity?
« Reply #34 on: 27/06/2005 02:26:36 »
quote:
Originally posted by simeonie

maybe but what are we to know that when the distance gets further out than we can see maybe it is a TOTAL vacuum

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The short answer is that we can't know about anything farther out. All we have are guesses.

It takes some effort to get used to the idea that there are questions we will never be able to answer.

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Offline DoctorBeaver

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Re: Infinity?
« Reply #35 on: 27/06/2005 05:54:07 »
Apparently it can be shown that statisticians are right 100% of the time! [:D]
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Offline simeonie

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Re: Infinity?
« Reply #36 on: 27/06/2005 21:06:29 »
I think the bottom line is that we will never know the answer to some of these questions until we die and go to heaven (some of us).
 As much as I would love to know now though

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Offline rabeldin

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Re: Infinity?
« Reply #37 on: 28/06/2005 01:23:24 »
quote:
Originally posted by simeonie

I think the bottom line is that we will never know the answer to some of these questions until we die and go to heaven (some of us).
 As much as I would love to know now though

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And maybe not even then (assuming we do go somewhere when we die).

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Offline simeonie

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Re: Infinity?
« Reply #38 on: 29/06/2005 18:30:09 »
erm well when you go to heaven (if your going there) you will know everything

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Offline Sandwalker

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Re: Infinity?
« Reply #39 on: 15/07/2005 14:25:34 »
If heaven exists then infinity exists!

Or is that to great a step of faith to take.

I remember at eight yrs of age arguing with my mum about the edge of the universe, she saying that there was nothing, and I say that nothing occupied a volume and was therefore something.

I do not think space has to be infinite, remember the balloon analogy, when we blow up the balloon the surface area increases but is still finite but unbounded in its two dimensions.

If we can raise this analogy up to 4 or more dimensions, it may mean that space may be unbounded but finite (and growing).

It may even be a singularity (consider the experience of the photon travelling at C) and what we perceive as dimensions is just that a perception of some change of parameter of said singularity.
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Offline simeonie

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Re: Infinity?
« Reply #40 on: 15/07/2005 21:44:41 »
well I personally can not see how there can be an end, although it is mind boggling how it could be infinite but that is only because we have never seen something infinite.

The universe is sort of growing at the speed of light because of the light travelling outwards away from it's source

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Offline chimera

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Re: Infinity?
« Reply #41 on: 22/07/2005 11:58:22 »
quote:
Originally posted by Sandwalker


It may even be a singularity (consider the experience of the photon travelling at C) and what we perceive as dimensions is just that a perception of some change of parameter of said singularity.




Nicely put. Makes me think tho that it's funny how close that comes to age-old mystic thinking that everything in existence are just different aspects of one underlying truth or deity if you wish.

Problem is that even if it is true, which I do not rule out, it does not tell us much more than that... it does not explain anything, I'm afraid. And maybe it cannot be known, by us at least, since we are bound to a limited number of those dimensions, and get into trouble and headaches if we try to imagine more of them at the same time than we have fingers on our hand. Like chickens hardwired only to be able to count up to four or so. To them anything after that it just 'many'.
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Offline kenshin

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Re: Infinity?
« Reply #42 on: 28/08/2005 17:33:32 »
Our universe(or space) is just like a balloon.If you(or light) starts travling from one point, then you can go around and around forever. In this sense, our universe is infinite, but just like a balloon is finite,our universe is also finite.For more detailes,one can check "A breif history of time" by Stephen hakwins.
 

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Offline David Sparkman

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Re: Infinity?
« Reply #43 on: 30/08/2005 04:34:54 »
This is a theory to explain the uncomprehendable. Those who want to opt out may do so until the next uncomprehendable theory surfaces.

Hawkins believes that gravity has formed a bubble of a universe but has nothing to say about what is beyond, because in his world there is no beyond. We are a bubble in the middle of nothingness, and we cannot comprehend anything outside of our bubble.

Argument with Hawkins is not possible because of the way the rules are written. It is kind of like being told no by your mother and you ask why and she says simply "because".

Personally, although the math is so very tidy, I hope for something a little more meaningful than being a hicup in nothingness.

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Re: Infinity?
« Reply #44 on: 01/09/2005 23:17:30 »
A worm crawling on the surface of an apple, may think it lives in an infinite universe.  How do we differ from this, living in 4-d space-time?
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Offline David Sparkman

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Re: Infinity?
« Reply #45 on: 04/09/2005 04:56:51 »
A poor analogy, first parts of worms like the insides of apples, I can attest to that as I have found parts of worms inside apples I have bitten (yeech).

Second, it is not man's nature to accept that he cannot know, and cannot learn. Worms are dumb for leaving their parts inside apples (lol).

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Offline neilep

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Re: Infinity?
« Reply #46 on: 04/09/2005 07:04:46 »
I'd just like to point out at this juncture that my wife has very nice dimensions.

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Offline GruesomeGabe

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Re: Infinity?
« Reply #47 on: 06/10/2005 19:42:10 »
the universe is expanding,(we can figure out the rate though it varys in different areas) therefore there is a set amount of space and therefore space is not infinite...  well universes are expanding... so at least within our universe it makes sence.  theory of a multiverse works just like saying from here to the wall is 10 feet  within each unit of feet or inches and so on  there is an infinity there for space is infinite just like that wall there is an infinity infinites and infinity multiverses all stacked on each other....i have been thinking about this all day and searched the web and found this site.... me thinking about this just led to more and more questions and now i am in a frustrated state of trying to figure out the concept of infinity

gabe
 

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Offline i_have_no_idea

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Re: Infinity?
« Reply #48 on: 12/10/2005 19:58:24 »
From the big bang the universe just kept expanding at phenomenal speeds. From then on it will keep expanding until it gets to large and collapses on it's self (some scientists think).

I have heard but am not sure that the universe is about 150 billion light-years wide.
"Ideas are more powerful than guns. We would not let our enemies have guns, why should we let them have ideas." -Joseph Stalin

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Offline simeonie

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Re: Infinity?
« Reply #49 on: 13/10/2005 22:27:13 »
well no one actually knows whether it is infinite or not we don't know. I admit there can't be an infinite ammount of mass though because it would mean infinite gravity this the universe collapsing in on itself. BUT there could be a TOTAL vacuum though for the rest of infinitey. I can not understand how there could be an end. I mean if there is an end like a wall or something there must be something on the other side of the wall. Ya know what I mean?

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