[SteveD (OP)]

Hey guys we cant be breaking apart like this.  We are all perplexed by the same problem, we should be working together to finally reach a day when we all can say good
byes with both smiles and tears on our face. It is too early for us to start separating. And we also dont have enough people and especially active people to separate like
this. I was just going to suggest Girlwind, Steve D and Demografx talk through their differences during pm inorder to bring the two forums back toghter.

Some things work and some things don't. And it's good to have some of that "wisdom" to know the difference.

I'm excited to be part of this new forum. I see it providing an alternative to the POIS forum and an opportunity
to discuss more openly some of the issues that were dismissed too quickly as "frivolous" and/or argued away
as "scientifically untenable" on the other forum. My wish for all those who come here is that we have:

1) An INCLUSIONARY ATTITUDE pertaining to ALL ASPECTS of the "sexual illness syndrome"--both pre-orgasmic
and post-orgasmic, and anything in between.

2) A GREAT TOLERANCE for non-standard-medical thinking about answers to the above mentioned issue, not
just an assumption that because someone has a lot of AMA approved initials after their name, that their word is
somehow "the last word" on the subject, or qualified as "more superior" to the non-standard-medical  "word." 

3) SUPPORT & ENCOURAGEMENT, as well as a welcoming attitude, for those who recover using approaches that are
more holistically (non-standard-medically) oriented, and for those who are so diligently working on that. There is
a place for healthy skepticism, I will acknowledge that. But  too much suspicion and skepticism can be a destructive
alienating force, which can prevent people from being open and willing to share their stories. So I hope we can be
aware of that here.

4) ROOM FOR PERSONAL PERSPECTIVES on this issue. Because certain kinds of sex happen within "a context" of
some kind of "relationship," I very much appreciate hearing about how people deal with issues that come up with
their partners regarding these problems, how they negotiate them and work through them, or not.

Those are my needs, and will determine if I stick around or not. It takes A LOT of time and energy for me to write
up an informative intelligent post on these forums. Having serious limitations of each of the above, I don't want to
waste EITHER on things that don't work for me. But I will gladly give my input (from my 30 years of  experience
with information I've gleaned facing some very challenging health issues) on what I do know and what I'm learning
along the way.

So... What do you think, Steve?  How does this sound to you?

I am humbled by the eloquence and comprehensiveness of your words, and could not agree with you more.

Steve D.

[girlwind]

I am humbled by the eloquence and comprehensiveness of your words, and could not agree with you more.

Steve D.

Thank you. I'm glad we're on the same page.
Happy Valentine's Day to you and your sweetie.

[SteveD (OP)]

My partner and I talked at great length tonight about our objectives and we are clear that we want to do whatever is necessary to heal my illness. I am grateful to her for her willingness. We have agreed that 'systematic observation and experiment' may help and are going to do that this week...A little science couldn't hurt.
Steve D.

Thanks for sharing this, Steve. Willingness for investigation is always a good thing.

Girlwind.

My partner and I experimented with surrendering genital contact and arousal behaviors yesterday-on Valentine's Day. I personally think that romance is sublimated sexuality and it manifested positively, for us, in roses, a card and a diamond ring. We then went to church, a party and stayed the night together, all while being abstemious...and not surprisingly there were no signs of pre orgasmic sexual depletion. Neither of us plan to do this forever, but it's nice to know that, until there is another fool proof solution, that there is a way, difficult though it may be, to be totally well. I am grateful, humbled and thankful for her willingness.

Steve D.

[underwater]

Environmental Toxins and Sexual Dysfunction:
The other day I was thinking about the onset of GAD and possibly related sexual symptoms. 25 years ago I taught in a building for 3-4 years. Directly under the floor where I worked there were constant smells of skunk and other vermin. The administration sprayed on a regular basis. This lasted for the entire time I was there. Now as I recall, I periodically got drowsy and often felt extreme nervousness. This time period just happened to coincide with the onset of a serious panic/anxiety disorder and perhaps a related sexual dysfunction. I was prescribed powerful drugs by my psychiatrist at the time. In fact, it was in this building that I had an actual breakdown and had to seek help. I guess this question is for Girlwind: Do you think such exposure to these toxins (I don't know what they used) were powerful enough to cause Central Nervous System disruptions? I recall that these sprays had a terrible smell, but it didn't keep the skunks from returning in a few weeks.

[lyner]

I wonder if it could be related to your 'technique'? There are many ways of getting to orgasm - some can be pretty traumatic and could lead to severe hangover effects.

Sophiecentaur,

I'm curious about which techniques you are referring to as well.

SteveD.

When couples go to their Doctor about sexual matters it often turns out that they are actually 'doing it' in very unorthodox ways. For instance, it is often thought that you need to go 'hammer and tongs' in order to achieve or give 'satisfaction'. The content of lot of Porn would seem to confirm this (so I'm told!).
I was just wondering whether there may be something you could do about your problem by trying a range of alternative ways of getting and giving pleasure. It may, of course, be a problem which can't be solved in a straightforward way but I would always advise avoiding the 'big guns' of medicine until you've tried a few alternatives, yourself. Somehow, 'going to the Doctor' sets you on the 'ill' side of a line when you may not have been, initially.

Sex Therapy can be viewed as a joke cliche but it certainly manages to help some people. (Never used it  or sold it, I hasten to add - so this is not an advert.) Perhaps you could try - or there are acres and acres of bookshelves full  of serious treatments of the topic.

[girlwind]

Environmental Toxins and Sexual Dysfunction:
The other day I was thinking about the onset of GAD and possibly related sexual symptoms. 25 years ago I taught in a building for 3-4 years. Directly under the floor where I worked there were constant smells of skunk and other vermin. The administration sprayed on a regular basis. This lasted for the entire time I was there. Now as I recall, I periodically got drowsy and often felt extreme nervousness. This time period just happened to coincide with the onset of a serious panic/anxiety disorder and perhaps a related sexual dysfunction. I was prescribed powerful drugs by my psychiatrist at the time. In fact, it was in this building that I had an actual breakdown and had to seek help. I guess this question is for Girlwind: Do you think such exposure to these toxins (I don't know what they used) were powerful enough to cause Central Nervous System disruptions? I recall that these sprays had a terrible smell, but it didn't keep the skunks from returning in a few weeks.

Underwater---

This is something that I (unfortunately) have a lot of personal first hand experience with. In the late
1980's I had a MAJOR chemical exposure due to a neighbor's MASS spraying of a now banned toxic
chemical--for termite control.

So the answer to your question is a resounding yes... toxins can wreak total HELL on your body, espe-
cially on your nervous and endocrine systems. As a matter of fact, the very WORST symptoms that I
had both immediately during and for many years after this "poisoning" episode were neurological and
brain related ones.

Though I am certainly much healthier now, I think that I still suffer the after-effects of that "poisoning"
episode, and I think many of those effects are still apparent in my neuro-endocrine system, which in-
cludes the pre and post orgasmic symptoms we are addressing in this forum. There is so very much
I have learned about this topic over the years! In my next post I will list some of the better sources of
information you can check out to learn more about how your past exposure could be affecting you,
and what you might be able to do about it.
 

[girlwind]

ARTICLES ON THE EFFECTS OF TOXINS ON THE NEURO and ENDOCRINE SYSTEMS

The Effect of Neurotoxins on Human Health
http://www.geocities.com/RainForest/Vines/4301/sd19.html

The Effect of Endocrine Disruptors
http://www.nrdc.org/health/effects/qendoc.asp

Emerging Science On the Impact of Endocrine Disruptors On Intelligence and Behavior
http://www.ourstolenfuture.org/newscience/behavior/behav.htm



What Is Body Burden?
http://www.chemicalbodyburden.org/whatisbb.htm

Polluted Bodies (SF Chroncile article on a 2003 study of "body burden" chemicals found in humans--
done by the Mt. Sinai School of Medicine in conjunction with the Environmental Working Group)
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2003/02/03/ED162110.DTL

Chemical Trespass: (Pesticides In Our Bodies and Corporate Accountability)
http://www.panna.org/docsTrespass/chemicalTrespass2004.dv.html



The Body Burden Toxins Test
http://blog.gaiam.com/blog/whats-your-body-burden-take-the-toxins-test/

The Ten Most Important Foods To But Organic
http://www.ecomall.com/greenshopping/eorganic.htm

[underwater]

Girlwind--
I very much appreciate your response and all the references you have given.
I will begin to review them shortly---
Believe it or not, I have not swum in two weeks! I am trying to add rest to my therapies regarding all my conditions. I have replaced swimming however with long, easygoing walks. I also am worried about chlorine. I probably will return to the pool in due course, but who knows?
Thanks, and continued success with your experimentations-----------

[SteveD (OP)]

I wonder if it could be related to your 'technique'? There are many ways of getting to orgasm - some can be pretty traumatic and could lead to severe hangover effects.

Sophiecentaur,

I'm curious about which techniques you are referring to as well.

SteveD.

When couples go to their Doctor about sexual matters it often turns out that they are actually 'doing it' in very unorthodox ways. For instance, it is often thought that you need to go 'hammer and tongs' in order to achieve or give 'satisfaction'. The content of lot of Porn would seem to confirm this (so I'm told!).
I was just wondering whether there may be something you could do about your problem by trying a range of alternative ways of getting and giving pleasure. It may, of course, be a problem which can't be solved in a straightforward way but I would always advise avoiding the 'big guns' of medicine until you've tried a few alternatives, yourself. Somehow, 'going to the Doctor' sets you on the 'ill' side of a line when you may not have been, initially.

Sex Therapy can be viewed as a joke cliche but it certainly manages to help some people. (Never used it  or sold it, I hasten to add - so this is not an advert.) Perhaps you could try - or there are acres and acres of bookshelves full  of serious treatments of the topic.

SophieCentaur,

For me , the requirements of any healthy relationship is the honest and open communication of feelings. Whether it be father/daughter, student/teacher, close friends, therapist/ client, or lovers and partners. I then find that adding commitment to this emotional intimacy creates the two conditions necessary for me to be open to being sexual...Those are prerequisites, for me. To answer your question "I wonder if it could be related to your 'technique'?" My partner and I are rather technically conventional for a heterosexual couple. We employ normal penal/vaginal, oral and manual techniques. So, what I'm experiencing is something different. I view it like alcoholism. An alcoholic, who drinks, experiences an "allergic' reaction to alcohol which is not what normal people experience when they drink. The only real solution is complete abstinence. That is how I experience orgasm. So I have stayed away from that for 21 months and plan to continue to do so. The challenge, as for an alcoholic, is to learn to live life happily, joyously and freely having surrendered whatever is causing the pain.

Steve D.

[SteveD (OP)]

Believe it or not, I have not swum in two weeks! I also am worried about chlorine. I probably will return to the pool in due course, but who knows?

Underwater,

I have found a pool which uses saline instead of chlorine. It's easier on the skin and they can keep the water several degrees warmer. It's expensive,but, for me, it's worth it.

Steve D.

[SteveD (OP)]

Environmental Toxins and Sexual Dysfunction:
The other day I was thinking about the onset of GAD and possibly related sexual symptoms. 25 years ago I taught in a building for 3-4 years. Directly under the floor where I worked there were constant smells of skunk and other vermin. The administration sprayed on a regular basis. This lasted for the entire time I was there. Now as I recall, I periodically got drowsy and often felt extreme nervousness. This time period just happened to coincide with the onset of a serious panic/anxiety disorder and perhaps a related sexual dysfunction. I was prescribed powerful drugs by my psychiatrist at the time. In fact, it was in this building that I had an actual breakdown and had to seek help. I guess this question is for Girlwind: Do you think such exposure to these toxins (I don't know what they used) were powerful enough to cause Central Nervous System disruptions? I recall that these sprays had a terrible smell, but it didn't keep the skunks from returning in a few weeks.

Underwater---
So the answer to your question is a resounding yes... toxins can wreak total HELL on your body, espe-
cially on your nervous and endocrine systems.

Girlwind,

I saw an earlier edition of this post which mentioned environmental effects. That was absolutely my experience. I spent  20 years working on my spiritual life, and stayed so focused on the 'inside job' that I did not notice I was living in an environmental sewer. Atlanta, where I lived for 25 years, has the second worst air pollution in the US. I finally looked up and saw what was going on...that's the reason I moved to San Francisco...The air!


PS It's good to be posting again!

Steve D.

[SteveD (OP)]

The Ten Most Important Foods To But Organic
http://www.ecomall.com/greenshopping/eorganic.htm

Girlwind,

My partner and I just read this together and loved it...We're hard core organics ourselves.

Thanks,

Steve and Diane

[girlwind]

Girlwind,

I saw an earlier edition of this post which mentioned environmental effects. That was absolutely my experience. I spent  20 years working on my spiritual life, and stayed so focused on the 'inside job' that I did not notice I was living in an environmental sewer. Atlanta, where I lived for 25 years, has the second worst air pollution in the US. I finally looked up and saw what was going on...that's the reason I moved to San Francisco...The air!

PS It's good to be posting again!

Steve D.

I had to take off my long post about the details of the hell I went through after that chemical exposure.
It brings back too many bad memories. So many people did NOT believe that I COULD HAVE become ill
from a toxic exposure. They insisted it was all caused by DEPRESSION, and wanted to medicate me for
it. The worst part is that I was so vulnerable at the time, that I almost bought into that. That is the kind
of internalizing that can kill you! If I had tried to "process it" exclusively as a psychological phenomenon
and not dealt with the physical causes, I would not have lived to tell the story of my recovery.

I think that's why I feel so strongly about dealing with the physical on its own terms, with the orgasmic
issue as well. I agree with you totally that willing acceptance (of that we cannot YET change) is the best
way to go. Even though I have made some progress in alleviating some of the more extreme symptoms
of POIS, I haven't arrived at a consistent "cure." Not until I know that I'm at at that place of total healing,
do I want to experiment with my fragile energy.


PS I didn't know Atlanta was so polluted! But San Francisco, in places, isn't that great either. Though I
suppose it's probably pretty good for a city. What matters is that it works well for you.

[underwater]

Montery & San Francisco,
I could have guessed! Two of my favorite places. I once bought a 20 lb. book near Cannery Row and dragged it to San Francisco. The book contained engravings from around 1800, and about 50 were engraved by William Blake. These were from his original plates!!! William was frequently ill from the physical and spiritual pollution of London. He would have loved these discussions. Love in the sense that they would illuminate the mind and spirit despite the discomfort and pain of the subjects themselves. Steve, thanks for the saline pool suggestion. Right now however, my daily 2 hr. walks on the beach are divine. And Girlwind, some of my most enjoyable runs were in Monterrey. My second to last run of my life was in Monterrey four years ago. My very last one was in San Francisco two days later. If I recall, the poem "London" by Blake reveals his views of the human mind and the cultural difficulties related to sexuality.   

[SteveD (OP)]

I had to take off my long post about the details of the hell I went through after that chemical exposure.
It brings back too many bad memories. So many people did NOT believe that I COULD HAVE become ill
from a toxic exposure. They insisted it was all caused by DEPRESSION, and wanted to medicate me for
it. The worst part is that I was so vulnerable at the time, that I almost bought into that. That is the kind
of internalizing that can kill you!

Girlwind

I'm glad you saved yourself from their fatuous madness. Martin Luther King used to say "Sincere ignorance is the truest form of evil".

Steve D.

[SteveD (OP)]

'Math is the queen of sciences' 
 Dr. Caras ,CDC, Atlanta Ga.

Just need to check in...

Spent the day chaste by choice. Did three hours of prayer, two hours of meditating and one hour of swimming all in prep for a public speaking event tonight. It went very well and people got a message of healing, hope and humor. It was worth the sacrifice and work. The pre-orgasmic illness was completely absent which made me completely present.

I feel pleased, grateful and successful.

Steve D.

[girlwind]

SOME USEFUL INFO. IN PREPARATION OF DOCTOR VISITS:

Hey Steve--I think you mentioned you were going in for a doctor visit some time soon, so here's some ideas that
might be helpful for you in that process.

I think it's always a good idea to be VERY WELL PREPARED for medical appointments, with as much of your own
personal medical data as possible. Since, your doctor will be working FOR YOU, just like any other "contractor,"
it's good to let her/him know early on in the visit what your key concerns are. For this reason I would consider
writing up a brief AGENDA for the doctor appointment, with a list of priorities that you wish to cover and any
questions you want to be sure to ask, and making two copies of it--one for you, one for the doctor. Because
some doctors can be quick to make their OWN agenda during visits with them, dismissing some of the patient's
needs in the process, I am a big advocate of the patient making clear his/her agenda early on. Also, it ensures
that you won't forget all that you want to cover with the doctor, including any of THE DIAGNOSTIC TESTS you'd
like to request.

In addition, it's helpful to bring: 

1) copies of any PAST BLOOD TEST RESULTS,
2) a type-written CHRONOLOGICAL MEDICAL HISTORY, and
3) a separate page with the MAIN CURRENT SYMPTOMS, including brief explanations about each of them,
4) a list of ALL MEDICATIONS AND SUPPLEMENTS that you've tried, both ones that have and haven't been effective.

I've seen A LOT of doctors over the years, and I've always done better when I came in to the appointment really
well-prepared, with my health concerns well documented, and my questions typed out.

[girlwind]

I'm glad you saved yourself from their fatuous madness. Martin Luther King used to say "Sincere ignorance is the truest form of evil".

Steve D.

That's a great quote. I'm going to remember it! thanks

[SteveD (OP)]

Girlwind,

Thanks for the tip. I'll be prepared. Called my home clinic to find out the date of my Endo appointment , but no call back, yet.

I've been taking a 'fearless and searching moral inventory' of my food the last 3 weeks (moral=healthy, here) Weighing and measuring using a digital scale, using a food plan, following it strictly and notating the numbers afterward, as well. I'm lean and muscular but my weight used to fluctuated 2-8 pounds very easily.

As the anemia is gone, the POIS is at bay and my weight is very stable I feel like a new man. Hell... I feel almost normal!

Steve D.

[SteveD (OP)]

What Is Body Burden?
http://www.chemicalbodyburden.org/whatisbb.htm


The Body Burden Toxins Test
http://blog.gaiam.com/blog/whats-your-body-burden-take-the-toxins-test/

Girlwind,

My partner and I read these tonight and concurred...crucial stuff. Thanks.

Steve and Diane