Could the universe have been an act of an intelligent designer /chance

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Offline Alan McDougall

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Hi,

Maybe this topic has been discussed before on the forum, but can there be a case for intelligent design for the universe?

Example, the exactitude of the fundamental constants and if even one differed minutely we would simple have never come into existence

Or the argument against Intelligent Design that there might have been an infinitely of big bangs creating and infinity of different universes and one of them just happen to be just right for life. Like Goldilocks's, not too hot not too cold but just right, but just right due to some accident of blind chance

Alan
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Offline LeeE

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From a purely physics point of view, the idea is plausible; the universe exists, which means it works.  Although I only have a hobbiest interest in it, Geology also seems to have a certain elegance and consistency about it, so that too seems plausible.

Biology is a complete joke though; everything works, but only just, and certainly not forever.  There's just no evidence of intelligent design when it comes to biology.
...And its claws are as big as cups, and for some reason it's got a tremendous fear of stamps! And Mrs Doyle was telling me it's got magnets on its tail, so if you're made out of metal it can attach itself to you! And instead of a mouth it's got four arses!

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Offline Alan McDougall

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LeeE

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Biology is a complete joke though; everything works, but only just, and certainly not forever.  There's just no evidence of intelligent design when it comes to biology

Thanks for the response. Yes many things biological don't make good sense. Why has the ID made our earthly existence dependant on "Eat or be eaten"? Surly god could have made a better way of allowing us to absorb energy to sustain life.Make up something like walking solar panels  [:D]

However, when we look at the unimaginable complexity of the human brain, or any brain for that matter this might suggest an ID

Alan
« Last Edit: 06/03/2009 05:24:01 by Alan McDougall »
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Offline BenV

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However, when we look at the unimaginable complexity of the human brain, or any brain for that matter this might suggest an ID

Alan
But then we look at the failure rate of the damn thing and it's obvious that no design nor intelligence has gone into it.

I think you are looking at things in the wrong way - it's not a case of "the laws of physics are such so that we can exist", but "Because the laws of physics are such, we can exist".

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Example, the exactitude of the fundamental constants and if even one differed minutely we would simple have never come into existence
And if they were any different, we wouldnt exist to discuss them.  This doesn't matter on a universal scale though, so it's very human-centric to assume everything exists so we can.

I think the idea of an intelligent designer is a nice bedtime story to make people feel comforted and more important than they are in the big scheme of things.

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Offline Vern

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When thinking of ID I always end up with the question of: how did the intelligent designer come to exist; and what is the purpose of the design.

There was a science fiction story that explained it; I forget the name of it; but essentially, the intelligent designers were robots doing an experiment to try and determine how their own intelligent designers came to be. Their experiment is attempting to determine whether carbon-based life forms could evolve to become capable of making intelligent robots.

But then if it is true; why do we need the intelligent robots?
« Last Edit: 06/03/2009 13:32:25 by Vern »

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Offline Alan McDougall

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Vern



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When thinking of ID I always end up with the question of: how did the intelligent designer come to exist; and what is the purpose of the design.

There was a science fiction story that explained it; I forget the name of it; but essentially, the intelligent designers were robots doing an experiment to try and determine how their own intelligent designers came to be. Their experiment is attempting to determine whether carbon-based life forms could evolve to become capable of making intelligent robots.

It it a matter of turtles all the way down or infinite regression, But there might be an "uncaused cause" The big bang seems to defy the laws of thermodynamics, we are supposed to believe that the big bang had no cause,

But our universe needs this cause and effect, or entropy in order to sustain itself

Alan
« Last Edit: 06/03/2009 17:10:03 by Alan McDougall »
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Offline Vern

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I'm not a big fan of the Big Bang theory. But I don't have a dog in that hunt and so don't worry about it much. I suspect that some other concept will eventually gain favor when we realize how much we are bending nature's laws.

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Offline Alan McDougall

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Vern


While I agree that ID is not science in any sense, the opposite belief that the universe just popping into existence out of nowhere, cannot be proved by empirical scientific method

If the universe is infinite and eternal there is is no possibilty of proving this as a fact

Albert Einstein once quoted "An intelligence of such superiority that compared with it, all the systematic thinking and acting of human beings is an utterly insignificant reflection`.

Einstein also said that he saw no reason for not believing in an ID


The brilliant Fred Hoyle said something very similar , they both made these and other similar quotes from a position of skeptical atheist

Alan
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Offline Vern

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The concept of Intelligent Design implies that some designer contemplated humanity and produced mechanisms to bring it into being. But looking out into the universe, humanity seems to be so insignificant that it is hard to imagine such a humongous design just to create a human habitat.

It doesn't seem to be a very efficient use of matter and energy. [:)]   

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Offline Alan McDougall

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Vern


 

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The concept of Intelligent Design implies that some designer contemplated humanity and produced mechanisms to bring it into being. But looking out into the universe, humanity seems to be so insignificant that it is hard to imagine such a humongous design just to create a human habitat.

But are we really so insignificant? Einstein also remarked that what is really incomprehensible about humanity, is that we can comprehend so much

You mind can expand into infinity and try to comprehend all existence

The greatest as yet unexplainable enigma is the "Existence of Existence"

When I try to comprehend even my own existence it becomes a revelation of awesome truth

Alan
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Offline latebind

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If a designer has designed a race of people that can destroy a planet and its life in a few centuries than he wouldnt be a very good designer.




Late

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Offline Alan McDougall

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latebind

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If a designer has designed a race of people that can destroy a planet and its life in a few centuries than he wouldnt be a very good designer.

Humans are really just puny little naked apes. We simply cannot destroy the earth and if we are not careful she might brush us off her shoulder or crush us with a mighty earthquake.


Of course there remains the free will factor in the equation, withhout it we would have been just robots to this infinite intellect.

Alan

Alan
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Offline Vern

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Quote from: Alan McDugall
But are we really so insignificant? Einstein also remarked that what is really incomprehensible about humanity, is that we can comprehend so much
Yes; we can really comprehend a lot of real things. And we can comprehend many more things that might not be real. We have no way other than our own feelings to determine which comprehensions are real and which are not.

I suspect that most of us just accept as real that which someone we trust tells us is real.

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lyner

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How sure can we be that we do have 'true' freewill? I know we might feel too uneasy to accept that we may not have it but can we prove that we have it. Moreover, what do we actually mean be free will and is it relevant?

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Offline _Stefan_

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Postulating a designer is useless. It explains absolutely nothing. You then have an infinite regression consisting of questions like "who created the designer?", "what are the properties of the designer?", "how does the designer work?", "how does the designer create?". It does not help our understanding of the universe to say "goddidit".
Stefan
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Offline Bored chemist

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"Humans are really just puny little naked apes. We simply cannot destroy the earth "
We seem to be having a jolly good try.

Incidentally, has anyone ever considered the possibillity of "stupid design" ie that there is a "creator" but He's just not very good at this sort of thing. That's why the world is in a bit of a mess and why there are so many cockups with the design of humans- for example, the blood vessels feeding out retina are in the way of the light  that the retina is there to sense.
There are plenty of other examples.
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Offline latebind

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Anything that we cannot understand will seem to be something magical/supernatural.

Once we understand physics fully(if we dont go extinct in the next few centuries) we will have no need for supernatural speculation.

This does not mean we will disprove god, but it does mean we will have an explanation for everything that we cannot understand now.
Late

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Offline Alan McDougall

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Bored chemist


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Incidentally, has anyone ever considered the possibillity of "stupid design" ie that there is a "creator" but He's just not very good at this sort of thing. That's why the world is in a bit of a mess and why there are so many cockups with the design of humans- for example, the blood vessels feeding out retina are in the way of the light  that the retina is there to sense.
There are plenty of other examples.

Yes I have for example why design the rabbit's digestive system in a way that it must eat its own faeces to survive.

I think that evolution or an ID is experimenting, rather than stupidly designing.

Stefan_

 

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Postulating a designer is useless. It explains absolutely nothing. You then have an infinite regression consisting of questions like "who created the designer?", "what are the properties of the designer?", "how does the designer work?", "how does the designer create?". It does not help our understanding of the universe to say "goddidit".

I like to think that somewhere out there in the vastness of the universe there is/are intelligences far more advanced than we are. There might be beings so advanced compared to humanity that for all tends and proposes they would be undisguisedly to us from out best concept of god

Who created the designer, we must come to a place in out understanding that we have to admit there are mysteries out there in the universe that even the best human mind would never comprehend

What about irreducible complexity, maybe the eye, this amazing biological instruments really seems to me that it was a design be someone

A cockroach is hugely hugely more complex than mans most complex machine, namely the space shuttle

 Vern

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I suspect that most of us just accept as real that which someone we trust tells us is real.

Our perception on really is very limited we only really observe what we have been programmed by evolution to observe to survive

Stefan_
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Offline _Stefan_

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Incidentally, has anyone ever considered the possibillity of "stupid design" ie that there is a "creator" but He's just not very good at this sort of thing. That's why the world is in a bit of a mess and why there are so many cockups with the design of humans- for example, the blood vessels feeding out retina are in the way of the light  that the retina is there to sense.
There are plenty of other examples.
Why postulate a stupid designer when its actions are indistinguishable from natural, undirected processes, which we are increasingly being able to understand? Occam's Razor, anyone?
 

I like to think that somewhere out there in the vastness of the universe there is/are intelligences far more advanced than we are. There might be beings so advanced compared to humanity that for all tends and proposes they would be undisguisedly to us from out best concept of god
It would seem unlikely that there is not another vastly intelligent species somewhere else in the universe, simply because of how large and old and full of planets and stars it is. However, those intelligent species would have evolved too, during a span of time after the universe formed.

Who created the designer, we must come to a place in out understanding that we have to admit there are mysteries out there in the universe that even the best human mind would never comprehend
Don't be so defeatist. There's no way to decide that before long term, vigorous scientific investigation of those mysteries. This also seems like a god of the gaps argument, which is illogical. And the origin of the universe itself is mysterious - but how can it possibly help to explain it using another mystery (god)???

What about irreducible complexity, maybe the eye, this amazing biological instruments really seems to me that it was a design be someone

A cockroach is hugely hugely more complex than mans most complex machine, namely the space shuttle

Irreducible complexity is absolutely not an argument against evolution by natural processes; it's an argument from ignorance. Consider this irreducibly complex analogy:
Take 1 chair, and place 1 book on the seat. Then place a large dish on the book, and a mug filled with hot coffee onto the dish.
Now remove the chair without destroying the structure. Of course everything else will fall and be ruined.
So the structure depends on everything being in the right place. But it was built simply enough. It's just that the components of the structure developed a dependance to each other. That's what evolution does.

And we already know how the eye evolved.
Stefan
"No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such a kind, that its falsehood would be more miraculous than the fact which it endeavors to establish." -David Hume

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Offline wolfekeeper

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Once we understand physics fully(if we dont go extinct in the next few centuries) we will have no need for supernatural speculation.
Dunno. Maybe we'll get to the point where we can show that it's impossible to make any further progress in physics, without ever reaching a convincing end.

And even if not, we can never know we've got physics right. It's like the black swan; just because things fell down yesterday and the day before and for the last 3 billion years, perhaps tomorrow they will fall up, and we'll be amazed.

It's happened before in physics; plenty of times, well not gravity swapping, but you know what I mean.

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Offline Bored chemist

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"Why postulate a stupid designer when its actions are indistinguishable from natural, undirected processes, which we are increasingly being able to understand?"
To satirise those who keep on about an inteligent designer which, as a theory, has even more problems than a stupid designer.

Also why do people insist on saying things like "Anything that we cannot understand will seem to be something magical/supernatural. "?
It isn't true, if it were then nobody would ever have tried to understand anything- they would just have said "it's magic" nd given up.
Also, I don't really undersand how this computer works in any detail- but I don't assume it's magic.
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Offline latebind

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Also why do people insist on saying things like "Anything that we cannot understand will seem to be something magical/supernatural. "?
It isn't true, if it were then nobody would ever have tried to understand anything- they would just have said "it's magic" nd given up.
Also, I don't really undersand how this computer works in any detail- but I don't assume it's magic.

This is a well known fact. If you research it you will find out why. But the essence is that humans need an explanation for everything, and what we cannot explain we categorize as magical/supernatural (sometimes with devastating effects).

You can see this in history, so many examples. Witches, wizards, rain gods, sun gods.

People were even killed for being suspected witches, and this is because no-one understood how the world really worked, and they suspected witches of being behind negative events, and so they killed them.

In Europe when the black plague was devastating everybody, no-one knew what a virus was, so they had no explanation for the way the plague spread and killed so many. They unfortunately linked this to other reasons and killed so many innocent people who were thought to be behind this conspiracy.

Here is a quote from wiki

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Death#Consequences

Europeans turned to astrological forces, earthquakes, and the poisoning of wells by Jews as possible reasons for the plague's emergence. No one in the fourteenth century considered rat control a way to ward off the plague, and people began to believe only God's anger could produce such horrific displays. There were many attacks against Jewish communities. In August of 1349, the Jewish communities of Mainz and Cologne were exterminated. In February of that same year, Christians murdered two thousand Jews in Strasbourg.

.......

Some Christians targeted "various groups such as Jews, friars, foreigners, beggars, pilgrims",lepers and Roma, thinking that they were to blame for the crisis. Lepers, and other individuals with skin diseases such as acne or psoriasis, were singled out and exterminated throughout Europe

History has many examples of this trait we have. So to deny the fact that humans have this flaw is to deny the existence of humanity.
« Last Edit: 08/03/2009 13:53:01 by latebind »
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Offline Bored chemist

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"This is a well known fact."
It isn't a fact at all. I have already pointed out that it isn't true and given a counter example.
What might have been believed a hundred years ago or whatever isn't relevant.
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Offline Alan McDougall

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_Stefan


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And we already know how the eye evolved.

Do we really? How did it evolve by blind chance?  [???]

Really good comments guys!

Alan
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Offline wolfekeeper

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Even very crummy eyes are very useful to have, and better eyes are more useful, and there's known examples in the animal kingdom with higher and higher efficiencies. There's no mystery at all.

Even bacteria can see light, and the molecular mechanisms to do that are really simple. Adding extra structures to determine direction is straightforward, and easily created by random variations, and would be kept.

Evolution is not simply blind chance, anymore than a man stumbling around in the dark is simply blind chance when he eventually finds a light switch; he'll find it eventually.

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Offline Alan McDougall

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wolfekeeper

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Even very crummy eyes are very useful to have, and better eyes are more useful, and there's known examples in the animal kingdom with higher and higher efficiencies. There's no mystery at all.

Oh yes there is a mystery how the eye evolved! Our human eye has been programmed by evolution or  an ID to observe only what we need to observe to survive. It is "now out of date" and we only perceive a tiny fraction of reality, like looking through a tiny straw our slit in the electro magnetic spectrum

Oh long a go when the eye "first happened", it found it was leaking water onto the face and getting blurred up with dust particles, so it invented a windscreen wiper (eyelids) But the problem of water overflowing onto the face remained.

So just like to channel tunnel  the eyes and the nose had a meeting, the nose was often very dry and the eye often too wet. So the nose began to drill a tunnel from its end and the eye did the same from its end. They met up in great exactitude and the eyeduct tunnel joint venture was successfully finished at great cost and over millions of years  [;D]  [;D]
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Offline wolfekeeper

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Um, yeah what you said, only... not.

Evolution doesn't have any aim, except survival. It tries stuff to boost survival. If that works, great, if not, it tries other stuff.

It's not trying to burrow holes or anything else except achieve short-term survival that eventually leads to long term survival. A tube that didn't lead anywhere is a complete waste of time, and would probably get infected and then they would die.

The human eye was built by random forces, and kept by reproduction- those eyes that worked better were kept, the others mostly died.

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Offline Alan McDougall

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Evolution doesn't have any aim, except survival. It tries stuff to boost survival. If that works, great, if not, it tries other stuff.

It's not trying to burrow holes or anything else except achieve short-term survival that eventually leads to long term survival. A tube that didn't lead anywhere is a complete waste of time, and would probably get infected and then they would die.

The human eye was built by random forces, and kept by reproduction- those eyes that worked better were kept, the others mostly died.

The best medical science simply cannot make a tear duct!!

Maybe evolution really has no aim but why would a mindless thing want to survive?, how can blind evolution have any aim? , that concepts beats me, something with an aim no matter how stupid suggests an intelligence of some sort!!

Life is said to have started about 3.5 billion years ago on earth. There was a primordial soup of some kind or the other, lightening flashing through methane and ammonia etc mixed with water and crashing boiling rocks and chemistry

But hey who made the rocks, the lightening, the earth the soup the earth and the universe ???

Maybe we are just very very lucky little puny entities stuck out here in a corner of an ordinary galaxy amongst a hundred billion others. And we are very lonely beings the only sentient intelligent life forms in this unimaginably huge vast cosmos.

"What a collosal waste of space"

Life has absolutely no meaning, our beloved children , parents , grandparents wife's just like us, are simply a meaningless accident of blind chance

Heck guys let us run and eat and sleep and do exactly what we like for tomorrow we die
« Last Edit: 09/03/2009 14:51:12 by Alan McDougall »
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Offline BenV

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Evolution doesn't have any aim, except survival. It tries stuff to boost survival. If that works, great, if not, it tries other stuff.

It's not trying to burrow holes or anything else except achieve short-term survival that eventually leads to long term survival. A tube that didn't lead anywhere is a complete waste of time, and would probably get infected and then they would die.

The human eye was built by random forces, and kept by reproduction- those eyes that worked better were kept, the others mostly died.

The best medical science simply cannot made a tear duct!!
But they have evolved several times over.

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Maybe evolution really has no aim but why would a mindless thing want to survive?, how can blind evolution have any aim? , that concepts beats me, something with an aim no matter how stupid suggests an intelligence of some sort!!

This is a common misunderstanding.  Evolution has no aim. None whatsoever. It's a process by which the more sucessful organisms survive.  Over time, this may look like it has direction, but it doesn't.

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Life is said to have started about 3.5 billion years ago on earth. There was a primordial soup of some kind or the other, lightening flashing through methane and ammonia etc mixed with water and crashing boiling rocks and chemistry

But hey who made the rocks, the lightening, the earth the soup the earth and the universe ???

Maybe we are just very very lucky little puny entities stuck out here in a corner of an ordinary galaxy amongst a hundred billion others. And we are very lonely beings the only sentient intelligent life forms in this unimaginably huge vast cosmos.

"What a collosal waste of space"

Life has absolutely no meaning, our beloved children , parents , grandparents wife's just like us, are simply a meaningless accident of blind chance
Evolution is also not blind chance.  Mutations may be random, but evolution is not.

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Heck guys let us run and eat and sleep and do exactly what we like for tomorrow we die
And indeed, in a long enough timescale, chance of survival is reduced to zero.

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Offline _Stefan_

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Why does there need to be an "Aim" or "Purpose"? An entity doesn't need to want or be wanted to copy itself. If it can be replicated, it will.

In the biological world, the only purposes arise from the functions of structures. This does not imply design.

If you want meaning, make it yourself. This universe is amazing - delight in it!

Please, please, please learn more about the evolution of life of earth, and of the formation of the universe, before you make comments about these topics.
Stefan
"No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such a kind, that its falsehood would be more miraculous than the fact which it endeavors to establish." -David Hume

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Offline Alan McDougall

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stefan_ 


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Please, please, please learn more about the evolution of life of earth, and of the formation of the universe, before you make comments about these topics.

Please indicate to to the person whom your posts are directed

I happen to know a great deal about physics, science, astronomy and evolution so your suggestion that I must learn about them is meaningless to me

How on earth can you make an assumption about the knowledge or lack of knowledge about a person who you know absolutely nothing?


Lets use as an analogy the history and development of the motorcar. An alien made out of a metallic compound arrives from a very different world than ours, in the late 1890 and takes a primitive prototype car to its home world to dissect. The tiny engine sputters, blows out smoke and breaks down all the time. Ten years later (an enormous time span for the alien)the alien comes back and finds the cars are a little better, due to some process of evolution.

Life for them can only exist in a metallic chain helix, and biological carbon bases life is considered as non- conscious, driven by instinct

Then the alien continues to return to earth on ten year cycles and each times find this strange self propelled metallic life form more advanced. Evolution is at work here, evolution is nudging this species in a direction of greater efficiency

Of course it is silly to any thinking mind in the alien culture. To think these changes over the huge time scales are anything but an evolutionary process. And to suggestion that some kind of an intelligence was behind the evolution of the animal called car, is blasted out of their scientific order





Alan[/color]
« Last Edit: 09/03/2009 15:44:04 by Alan McDougall »
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Offline BenV

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Lets go back and debate the eye and its origin during the late Cambrian epoch

I've got an idea, let's not do that.  There are plenty of other threads debating biological evolution vs design.

Unfortunately Alan, with comments about blind chance and irreducible complexity, you have not demonstrated a very good understanding of evolution, so I can see why Stefan might question it.

Regardless, the original topic of this one is the larger question about creation of the universe, so lets stick to that.

My personal viewpoint on this is:

I don't know if the universe was created by an intelligent designer, but there are lots of things that we do not know, and I do not feel that postulating a designer to explain things we can't explain is useful.  I do not assume the existence of any such being, and so this explanation would, in fact, create more questions for me than it answers.  So I choose to accept that the universe was almost certainly not created by an intelligent designer, and resign myself to the fact that I may never know the details of the origin of the universe.
« Last Edit: 09/03/2009 15:23:51 by BenV »

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lyner

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Maybe evolution really has no aim but why would a mindless thing want to survive?, how can blind evolution have any aim? , that concepts beats me, something with an aim no matter how stupid suggests an intelligence of some sort!!
Why do you require something to have an 'aim'?
Why should it? You may as well say that an apple 'wants' to fall to Earth. 'Aim' is an unnecessary concept and only used as a short cut in accounting for things which have already happened.

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Offline BenV

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Lets use as an analogy the history and development of the motorcar. An alien made out of a metallic compound arrives from a very different world than ours, in the late 1890 and takes a primitive prototype car to its home world to dissect. The tiny engine sputters, blows out smoke and breaks down all the time. Ten years later (an enormous time span for the alien)the alien comes back and finds the cars are a little better, due to some process of evolution.

Life for them can only exist in a metallic chain helix, and biological carbon bases life is considered as non- conscious, driven by instinct

Then the alien continues to return to earth on ten year cycles and each times find this strange self propelled metallic life form more advanced. Evolution is at work here, evolution is nudging this species in a direction of greater efficiency

Of course it is silly to any thinking mind in the alien culture. To think these changes over the huge time scales are anything but an evolutionary process. And to suggestion that some kind of an intelligence was behind the evolution of the animal called car, is blasted out of their scientific order

Are you serious? This is a joke, surely. There is no comparison whatsoever here to the real world and the real science of evolution.

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I happen to know a great deal about physics, science, astronomy and evolution so your suggestion that I must learn about them is meaningless to me
We now know that at least one part of this sentance is a lie.
« Last Edit: 09/03/2009 15:47:32 by BenV »

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Offline Alan McDougall

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Why do you require something to have an 'aim'?
Why should it? You may as well say that an apple 'wants' to fall to Earth. 'Aim' is an unnecessary concept and only used as a short cut in accounting for things which have already happened.


wolfkeeper said that, not me his quote below 

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Evolution doesn't have any aim, "except survival". It tries stuff to boost survival. If that works, great, if not, it tries other stuff.



Evolution doesn't have any aim, except survival. It tries stuff to boost survival. If that works, great, if not, it tries other stuff.


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Evolution doesn't have any aim, except survival. It tries stuff to boost survival. If that works, great, if not, it tries other stuff
.

BenV

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We now know that at least one part of this "sentance is a lie"


Remark removed

The little story about the evolution of the motor vehicle was a joke man a joke!!

Alan



« Last Edit: 09/03/2009 21:03:09 by Alan McDougall »
The Truth remains the Truth regardless of our beliefs or opinions the Truth is always the Truth even if we know it or do not know it (The Truth remains the Truth)

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Offline BenV

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I will not tolerate that type of comment by anyone especially from a person who  ""man you can not even spell correctly""

The little story about the evolution of the motor vehicle was a joke man a joke!!

Alan

Fair enough.  I apologise for my spelling, (I'm guessing it's sentance you're referring to?  Should it have been sentence? - actually spelled correctly, merely the wrong word).  I also apologise for accusing you of lying.

I'm glad it was a joke, sadly, it's often difficult to communicate subtleties like sarcasm in plain text.  I still think that your comments about irreducible complexity and "blind chance" expose a lack of understanding about evolution. 

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lyner

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Quote "Evolution doesn't have any aim, except survival. It tries stuff to boost survival. If that works, great, if not, it tries other stuff"

I'm not sure what that's supposed  to mean. Evolution works that way because that's how it turned out. The statement of what takes place does not imply an 'aim' any more than the die which comes up 6 on ten occasions.

It seems to me that many evolutionists are creationists underneath; they still use emotional methods in their arguments and replace God with the 'God Evolution'.
The word "blind" seems to be used as some sort of quality judgement in so many posts. Why should it not be a 'blind' process if all that is meant is 'random'?

And why does poor old Darwin get all the stick? He only wrote "I think .. .". It's all the subsequent work which, over 150 years, has underpinned and expanded on his original 'thought' and which has provided ever increasing amounts of evidence and explanation. We now 'think' with a lot more justification than he ever did.

Anyone who disagreed with the present state of QM would not use arguments against the original Bohr Model of 100 yrs ago and expect to get taken seriously. Why do 'anti creationists not address the more modern evidence and ideas? It must be either too hard or too compelling.
« Last Edit: 09/03/2009 18:26:39 by sophiecentaur »

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Offline Bored chemist

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Just a quick point which should be obvoious to anyone schooled in physics and chemistry.
Re "Our human eye has been programmed by evolution or  an ID to observe only what we need to observe to survive. It is "now out of date" and we only perceive a tiny fraction of reality, like looking through a tiny straw our slit in the electro magnetic spectrum".
The body is mainly water and protein. They eye is made from those materials an in particular the cornea is made from them. It is, therefore, impossible for a human sized eye to "see" in the UV or IR regions because (for a layer that thick) the cornea is opaque.
For an insect, with a much smaller eye and so a much smaller pathlength, it's possible to see further into the UV.
Please disregard all previous signatures.

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Offline Madidus_Scientia

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Alan, you seem to think selectively taking a few of Einstein's quotes should convice people of something. Einstein has me convinced about relativity and all that because of all the evidence behind it, but biology just wasn't his field.

http://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?topic=18520.0
Check number 3.

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Offline Alan McDougall

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BennV

Hey guys take note this post reveals who I really am namely the Beast post 666


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Fair enough.  I apologise for my spelling, (I'm guessing it's sentance you're referring to?  Should it have been sentence? - actually spelled correctly, merely the wrong word).  I also apologise for accusing you of lying.

I'm glad it was a joke, sadly, it's often difficult to communicate subtleties like sarcasm in plain text.  I still think that your comments about irreducible complexity and "blind chance" expose a lack of understanding about evolution.


Thank you Ben!!  [:)] We should make more use of the smileys a quote that is meant to be a joke can be taken seriously

I will remove my uncalled for remark about your creative spelling  [:)]

I think it was Benjamin Franklin a notoriously bad speller said "Anyone can spell correctly but only a person with a highly creative mind like mine can come up with spelling I put onto paper every day"  [;D]

Madidus_Scientia

That was a realy good link thanks I always quote Einstein and others of like intellects from memory. I used to sometimes use a link to another site and post verbatim from there. I have learned my lesson because I have been wrongly accused for plagiarisation

I do take quotes from my own private librarary, but always indicate the source
« Last Edit: 09/03/2009 21:00:48 by Alan McDougall »
The Truth remains the Truth regardless of our beliefs or opinions the Truth is always the Truth even if we know it or do not know it (The Truth remains the Truth)

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Offline Vern

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Just a quick point which should be obvoious to anyone schooled in physics and chemistry.
Re "Our human eye has been programmed by evolution or  an ID to observe only what we need to observe to survive. It is "now out of date" and we only perceive a tiny fraction of reality, like looking through a tiny straw our slit in the electro magnetic spectrum".
The body is mainly water and protein. They eye is made from those materials an in particular the cornea is made from them. It is, therefore, impossible for a human sized eye to "see" in the UV or IR regions because (for a layer that thick) the cornea is opaque.
For an insect, with a much smaller eye and so a much smaller pathlength, it's possible to see further into the UV.
This reminds me of an article I saw awhile ago about the human eye. The light sensing cells are on the wrong side of the retina. Light has to penetrate the retina skin cells to be sensed. The light sensing cells of birds eyes evolved with the light sensing cells on the forward side of the retina. The article was about evolutionary mistakes of nature. 

Edit: Maybe this is not quite right. A quick Google turned up a lot of references that attribute the backwards condition to all vertebrates, with the other condition being prevalent in invertebrates. So poor birds.
« Last Edit: 09/03/2009 21:30:10 by Vern »

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Offline Alan McDougall

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Vern


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This reminds me of an article I saw awhile ago about the human eye. The light sensing cells are on the wrong side of the retina. Light has to penetrate the retina skin cells to be sensed. The light sensing cells of birds eyes evolved with the light sensing cells on the forward side of the retina. The article was about evolutionary mistakes of nature

I am not sure if it is birs who have light sensing cells on the forward side of the retina. Birds of prey like the eagle have many more retina cells than we humans and  see things in three dimension from a distance that would be invisible to the human eye

Nocturnal animals like the cat family , have eyes that absorb light at the back of the retina, which are then reflected to the front of the retina  given them five times the ability to see in the dark than we do.

The cats eyes glowing white and seeming to be beaming back at its prey in the dark are due to their eyes reflecting light to the front of the retina

Alan
The Truth remains the Truth regardless of our beliefs or opinions the Truth is always the Truth even if we know it or do not know it (The Truth remains the Truth)

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lyner

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But the inverted retina is also thought NOT to be a 'mistake' because the conditions under the surface are better for the performance of the actual sensors - more oxygen from the blood, for instance. It's another compromise, in fact.

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lyner

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Not only Darwin but Einstein, too, has his views quoted as gospel. He was very bright, of course, but he didn't know everything and had several flaws, His taste in hairdos was pretty poor, for a start! Just because he didn't have the whole story doesn't mean what has developed since is as incorrect as some of his mistaken ideas.
« Last Edit: 10/03/2009 13:13:09 by sophiecentaur »

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Offline Alan McDougall

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HERE ARE A FEW MORE FACTORS THAT SUGGEST THAT THE UNIVERSE WAS DESIGNED


The mass and size of this planet are just right. If it was 10% larger or smaller, life would not be possible upon this planet. It is just the right distance from the sun for heat and cold. Farther and we would freeze, closer and we would be baked.

Consider the tilt of the axis of the earth. No other planet has our 23 degree tilt.

This enables all parts of the surface to have sun light. Without this, the poles would build up enormous ice and the equator would become intensely hot.


Consider the moon. Without the tides created by the moon, all our harbors and shores would become one stench pool of garbage.

The tides and waves based upon the moon's movement and gravitational pull aerate the oceans and provide oxygen for the plankton, which is the very foundation of the food chain of our world.

Without plankton, there would not be oxygen and man would not be able to live on the earth. The moon is the right size and the right distance from the earth.

Reduced
« Last Edit: 11/03/2009 05:10:16 by Alan McDougall »
The Truth remains the Truth regardless of our beliefs or opinions the Truth is always the Truth even if we know it or do not know it (The Truth remains the Truth)

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lyner

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AMcD
Bite sized chunks would be easier to read. I tend to give up after about a page and I think many others do too - particularly when there are too many purple passages and not enough hard fact.

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Offline Alan McDougall

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Hey sophiecentaur

I took your advice and reduced lenghth of my previous post  [;D]

Sorry for that, I agree long rambling posts are hard to respond to

Alan
The Truth remains the Truth regardless of our beliefs or opinions the Truth is always the Truth even if we know it or do not know it (The Truth remains the Truth)

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Offline Madidus_Scientia

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With the vastness of the universe, there's bound to be plenty of planets with the conditions you speak of Alan. And here we are

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Offline echochartruse

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Hi all I'm new

I would like to add my bit.

It seems like science has a limited opinion of INTELLIGENCE when it comes to the universe.

I've heard science explain that the universe just happened with a big bang - so what was the reaction or action that caused that big bang, I asked, answer 'it just happened'.

That doesn't sound so scientific to me. [:-\]

Now "intelligent Design" well the scientist said "Who" was the designer and if there was a designer there must have been a "CREATOR" as a scientist would think, supposedly [:I]

As science progresses I've been told that DARWINISM is being rewritten, not the same as it was first published, Hummmm.

Recently I heard a scientist on TV state that "Intelligent Engineered Stem cell" grew into...... without being engineered by a scientist 'it just knew what to do itself'.

So now science has accepted that stem cells are intelligent and engineered [8)]

In my opinion if we keep the human factor of GOD out of it and think of the intelligence as something that is in every living thing,with our stem cell research we could be on the way to finding the intelligent we are looking for. In the future we may just find it.

I cant understand why this theory is so unacceptable to science. Are they so limited in their imagination or do they feel the need to control or is it that they think nothing non manlike/god like/alien like is intelligent.

A view with an open mind

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Offline BenV

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I've heard science explain that the universe just happened with a big bang - so what was the reaction or action that caused that big bang, I asked, answer 'it just happened'.

That doesn't sound so scientific to me. [:-\]
That's because that's not the scientific answer.  The scientific answer is that we don't know yet.  There are some theories (for example, we could be the result of different dimensional 'branes' passing through one another) but we're not sure yet.  That's a very different answer to 'it just happened'.

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As science progresses I've been told that DARWINISM is being rewritten, not the same as it was first published, Hummmm.

Science is pragmatic, it changes with time as we find more evidence and test hypotheses repeatedly.  Darwin got the basics right, and laid the foundations for the modern science of evolution - we should expect it to have changed.

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Recently I heard a scientist on TV state that "Intelligent Engineered Stem cell" grew into...... without being engineered by a scientist 'it just knew what to do itself'.

So now science has accepted that stem cells are intelligent and engineered

If a stem cell knows what to do it's because of it's genetic programming - it doesn't know anything - it's just a machine.

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In my opinion if we keep the human factor of GOD out of it and think of the intelligence as something that is in every living thing,with our stem cell research we could be on the way to finding the intelligent we are looking for. In the future we may just find it.

I cant understand why this theory is so unacceptable to science. Are they so limited in their imagination or do they feel the need to control or is it that they think nothing non manlike/god like/alien like is intelligent.

I'm not sure what theory you mean - if you mean the idea of intelligent design, it's hard to accept scientifically as it's based on non-falsifiable assumptions and cannot be tested.  That means it's not science.