How is the Universe able to expand faster than light?

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Offline DoctorBeaver

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How is the Universe able to expand faster than light?
« Reply #50 on: 09/03/2009 13:56:09 »
Quote from: yor_on
This 'saturation maximum' of a photon that you are referring too.
Is that how you see it acting as a 'particle' then?
Yes; I thought of the saturated points as appearing to be particles; however; Dr. Kemp convinced me that it was the transition from zero amplitude to the maximum amplitude that would interact as a particle. According to Kemp, mass is electromagnetic change. So it is the change that makes the difference. The saturated amplitude simply gives us the quantum phenomena.

The state of energy called matter would be composed of these things locked in resonant patterns.

I'm unsure about that. There are many types of particle with different mass, different charge, and that are affected by different forces. How does that theory account for that? Does it just apply to fermions?

Does it mean that different amplitude accounts for the difference in the mass of particles? How do you get different particle types? What about spin?
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Offline Vern

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« Reply #51 on: 09/03/2009 13:56:58 »
Quote from: yor_on
To me it seems that you can't differ between the expansion pace's redshift, if it's there, and Doppler redshift?
It will be a guess, however educated it might be.

Or?
Yes; there does seem to be a problem there. In the past I've noticed that when this kind of speculation runs rampant in a previously accepted theory, it is usually the prelude to a more profound change in the theory.

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Offline Vern

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« Reply #52 on: 09/03/2009 14:00:23 »
Quote from: DoctorBeaver
I'm unsure about that. There are many types of particle with different mass, different charge, and that are affected by different forces. How does that theory account for that? Does it just apply to fermions?
Dr. Kemp and I worked out all the elementary particles as well as gravity and the strong forces. But I don't want to hijack this thread. I have a thread in the New Theories forum that would probably be more appropriate if we want to discuss this more.
« Last Edit: 09/03/2009 14:01:57 by Vern »

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Offline DoctorBeaver

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« Reply #53 on: 09/03/2009 14:18:38 »
Thanks, Vern.
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Offline yor_on

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« Reply #54 on: 13/03/2009 17:47:28 »
In Einstein’s theory, gravity is as an attractive force so, in general relativity, the expansion should slow down depending on the density of matter and energy in spacetime. As it doesn't seem to do so, we will have to look at the possibility of other forms of energy producing a repulsive gravity.

Jack Sarfatti see that 'energy' as being 'dark energy', this apparently is allowed by General relativity, even though belonging to 'special cases'. To explain the effects of dark energy he then look at vacuum energy, as it seems mathematically equivalent to the 'cosmological constant' (Einstein 1917). The idea behind this is a so called “vacuum coherence” which then would be a inflation field in 'disguise'. And the idea behind that :) is then based on Dirac’s theory of the electron, and would then be a similar effect to how a normal metal becomes a superconductor.

http://arxiv.org/abs/gr-qc/0602022 (2006) and http://arxiv.org/abs/0902.0032 (2009)

This is kind of scary in fact :)
Reading you Chris I commented almost the same as this idea with the exception that it then might be similar to 'virtual particles' as it would give an effect without 'materialising'. Reminds me of an earlier post in where I mentioned the 'unreal' significance of 'best guesses' when done in good faith :)

Yep, spooky stuff indeed :)

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Ah Vern, you redneck you :)
« Last Edit: 13/03/2009 18:25:09 by yor_on »
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Offline Vern

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« Reply #55 on: 13/03/2009 19:47:03 »
Quote from: yor_on's link
The emergence of gravity as a retro-causal post-inflation macro-quantum-coherent holographic vacuum Higgs-Goldstone field

Authors: Jack Sarfatti, Creon Levit

The title is certainly an exercise in mental gymnastics [:)]

Edit: Maybe I should say verbal gymnastics.

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Offline DoctorBeaver

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« Reply #56 on: 14/03/2009 10:34:57 »
Quote from: yor_on's link
The emergence of gravity as a retro-causal post-inflation macro-quantum-coherent holographic vacuum Higgs-Goldstone field

What the hell does that mean? Is it even English?
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Offline yor_on

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« Reply #57 on: 14/03/2009 15:54:00 »
I took the liberty to translate it into proper english with the help of a synonym wordbook.
It should be so much clearer now...

Original
"The emergence of gravity as a retro-causal post-inflation macro-quantum-coherent holographic vacuum Higgs-Goldstone field"

And the final definition.

"The outgrowth of solemnity as a ex post facto-causative postal service-splashiness  mega-measure-tenacious holographic vacuity Higgs-Goldstone theatre."
« Last Edit: 14/03/2009 21:50:41 by yor_on »
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Offline Vern

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« Reply #58 on: 14/03/2009 18:08:45 »
Aaah; much better [:)]

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Offline DoctorBeaver

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« Reply #59 on: 14/03/2009 18:41:48 »
Yes, I understand it now too.
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Offline lightarrow

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« Reply #60 on: 14/03/2009 19:47:14 »
The same for me.

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Offline yor_on

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« Reply #61 on: 14/03/2009 21:52:03 »
Otherwise it is quite good :)
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Offline yor_on

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« Reply #62 on: 14/03/2009 22:21:41 »
Did anyone notice this?

"The future de Sitter event horizon world hologram is “our past light cone at the end of time”. It can be pictured as a pixelated spherical shell of area NL P infinitely far from our detectors (in proper time) on their future light cone, with thickness L P and duration L P/c. This shell, or “screen”, has 4D volume NL P with dark energy density hc/(4DVolume Hologram Screen).

This screen projects the voxels of our accelerating expanding 3D space hologram image back from the future - indeed, back to the moment of inflation 13.7 billion years ago in what Igor Novikov calls a “globally self-consistent” strange loop in time. To summarize: The area of an observer’s future de Sitter horizon holographically determines the dark energy density seen by that observer." (2009) paper.
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Offline DoctorBeaver

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« Reply #63 on: 15/03/2009 00:42:23 »
I knew that anyway  [:P]
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Offline km2g

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How is the Universe able to expand faster than light?
« Reply #64 on: 18/03/2009 03:09:30 »
Gravity if faster than light. But what i understand is that matter can't travel beyond light speed. What of the matter that travels into a black hole? Aren't they traveling faster then light? Maybe in the BB gravity, being split from the other properties, was the first driving force. That would mean that if we could watch the event, materials could have been light years past us before we could even see the light. Would it then mean that light is still trying to catch up and what we see now or rather what we could measure is only 13.4 billion, visible light, years old?

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Offline Vern

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How is the Universe able to expand faster than light?
« Reply #65 on: 18/03/2009 04:05:57 »
Quote from: yor_on
"The future de Sitter event horizon world hologram is “our past light cone at the end of time”. It can be pictured as a pixelated spherical shell of area NL P infinitely far from our detectors (in proper time) on their future light cone, with thickness L P and duration L P/c. This shell, or “screen”, has 4D volume NL P with dark energy density hc/(4DVolume Hologram Screen).
I don't think I understand what this is about. Where is the hologram coming from? I must have missed that.

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Offline DoctorBeaver

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« Reply #66 on: 18/03/2009 10:14:05 »
The hologram thing is yet another bit of weirdness dreamed up by those nice string theory chaps. Some scientists from the UK & Germany have theorised that we're doing it all wrong by looking for extra dimensions. They say that there aren't even 3 spatial dimensions and that space acts the same way as a hologram where a 2d image is made to look 3d. It is only at low energy levels that a 3-dimensional description becomes effective. Information is somehow "painted" on the 2d surface that gives the illusion of 3d.

In their 2d model gravity doesn't exist, but blackholes & gravity waves do. I don't know how that works. It's all a bit much for my poor little brain.
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Offline Vern

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« Reply #67 on: 18/03/2009 20:48:08 »
I like the hologram idea; that might lead to some real world advances in holography. It would be nice to have holographic TV.

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Offline lightarrow

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« Reply #68 on: 18/03/2009 21:52:42 »
I like the hologram idea; that might lead to some real world advances in holography. It would be nice to have holographic TV.
Don't know if you have ever heard about the "Holographyc Universe" theory:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holographic_principle
http://community.livejournal.com/ref_sciam/1190.html

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Offline DoctorBeaver

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« Reply #69 on: 18/03/2009 21:55:10 »
Alberto - that's what I was referring to.
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Offline lightarrow

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« Reply #70 on: 18/03/2009 22:03:32 »
Alberto - that's what I was referring to.
I know, but I suspect Vern didn't know.

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Offline yor_on

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« Reply #71 on: 19/03/2009 14:08:03 »
That idea(s) is so very strange. If it was true we all would be nothing else than 'ideas'. All matter then would seem to become 'information'. And as some see information as constituting of 'bits' then "the fundamental particle is a bit (1 or 0) of information." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holographic_principle#Limit_on_information_density

I prefer to believe in some sort of topological feature creating what we call matter :) Also that there should be some fractal principle guiding it. and when it comes to the smallest 'bits' I'm not sure that they exist, to me it seems more as if we are living in something (spacetime) that is created as a 'topological' reason of something else. To me we are baubles of improbability ::)) created from something we can't see, as fishes may not notice water. Maybe we can 'jump out' of it to see that other 'reality'. We should really try to understand what vacuum is, as it is there we see the clearest indications of something out of 'nothing'.
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Offline Vern

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« Reply #72 on: 19/03/2009 14:49:27 »
You're right lightarrow; I had never before encountered the notion of a holographic universe. I have some reading to do.

Quote from: yor_on's link
The holographic principle states that the entropy of ordinary mass (not just black holes) is also proportional to surface area and not volume; that volume itself is illusory and the universe is really a hologram which is isomorphic to the information "inscribed" on the surface of its boundary.

This notion is really weird. It may take awhile for me to come to grips with it.

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How is the Universe able to expand faster than light?
« Reply #73 on: 19/03/2009 23:35:38 »
We think that the early Universe expanded very rapidly - known as rapid inflation - exceeding the speed of light, which the expansion of the Universe today continues to do.

How is this compatible with light being the fastest thing in the Universe?

Chris
Has the following thought ever occured to anyone else here at Naked?

Is it possible that the expanding field created by the Big Bang determines the speed of c? Many thoughts about the true nature of constants have been put forth, some insisting that c, G, ect. have remained the same since the beginning. Others question whether they are truly constant after all. I fall into the class that believe they change relative to the conditions within the universal field. If this is so, during the time of the so-called inflation, the field expanded beyond the present limit for c but because the field itself determines that limit, the speed of light was not exceeded.

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Offline Vern

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« Reply #74 on: 19/03/2009 23:52:08 »
That is as good an explanation as any I have seen Ethos. My own speculation is that the universe didn't and is not now expanding. The expanding model is only necessary when we need to explain spectral analysis of distant objects. I do not know what it is, but I suspect there is some explanation that does not require such cavalier trashing of the physical laws of nature.

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Offline DoctorBeaver

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« Reply #75 on: 20/03/2009 00:06:01 »
I do not know what it is, but I suspect there is some explanation that does not require such cavalier trashing of the physical laws of nature.

I don't see that we trash the laws of nature. We don't know for certain what those laws are, or even if universal laws actually exist. All we can say is that they appear to hold true for the visible universe. There may be regions (domains) outside our visible universe where the laws are very different.

There are theories that during inflation the universe became fragmented, or maybe the fragmentation existed prior to inflation. It is these fragments that are surmised, in some theories, to be bounded by cosmic strings. Each fragment may have different laws. We happen to exist in 1 fragment where the laws are what they are.

If inflation did actually happen then there would not have been enough time for information to pass across all the domains so it is quite possible that constants such as c & g in those other domains are totally different. In fact, that is quite likely.
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Offline yor_on

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« Reply #76 on: 20/03/2009 00:30:51 »
Interesting :)  Myself I've thought of inflation as a 'topological defect' or maybe it's what came after inflation that is the 'topological defect' :) And that is as I think of space and matter as some kind of 'mirroring' of each other. So as soon we have 'matter' we will have 'space', and 'c'. But as I see it, that doesn't define what was before.

I've seen ideas expecting space to be, not counting in expansion, as big as today with 'matter' sort of coagulating out of particles and suns in that great wasteness. I don't think so myself though, I think inflation is some kind of 'state' where it all 'spreads out' if you like, but not involving distances at all, as distances is a property of our dimensions, What spacetime might be is a topological 'wonder child' creating 'distances' and 'dimensions', but before that there should be a 'transition' of some kind creating? mass? matter?

And a guess could then be that 'mass' is creating what we see as dimensions and 'space' today. But if one look at this way it still doesn't 'explain' how particles bounds into dead and living matter. But you can see it as a field too perhaps, interchangeable in itself. I see spacetime as something not easily divisible though, although we observe different 'forces' as coexisting
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Offline DoctorBeaver

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« Reply #77 on: 20/03/2009 00:51:49 »
Interesting :)  Myself I've thought of inflation as a 'topological defect' or maybe it's what came after inflation that is the 'topological defect' :) And that is as I think of space and matter as some kind of 'mirroring' of each other. So as soon we have 'matter' we will have 'space', and 'c'. But as I see it, that doesn't define what was before.


But how would you account for the fact that matter didn't exist in the very early universe. It was far too hot. Space was there, but not matter.
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« Reply #78 on: 20/03/2009 01:51:35 »
Interesting :)  Myself I've thought of inflation as a 'topological defect' or maybe it's what came after inflation that is the 'topological defect' :) And that is as I think of space and matter as some kind of 'mirroring' of each other. So as soon we have 'matter' we will have 'space', and 'c'. But as I see it, that doesn't define what was before.


But how would you account for the fact that matter didn't exist in the very early universe. It was far too hot. Space was there, but not matter.
Drawing an absolute differentiation between matter and energy is a tricky proposition. Remember the famous formula? E=mc^2

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Offline yor_on

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« Reply #79 on: 20/03/2009 11:52:57 »
Ah it's just me binding myself up in knots :)
But the idea is that this transition, if it ever happened, is what created what we call 'space', so no, there was nothing we call 'spacetime' before that. 'Mass' is what needs 'space', and 'space' without 'mass' is not there. It's highly implausible I guess :) but it suits my thinking, and it explains the concept of 'inflation' to me. If what we call dimensions and distance is a property of spacetime, then what we might have had before wasn't anything of that, just as Ethos, and yourself DB (hidden dimension) seems to thinks, that we need something not 'regulated' of those forces that binds spacetime today. I like my concept as it doesn't need to change any of the 'constants' that rule us. So what I'm thinking is that the concept of 'mass' needs 'space' and if we had a 'moment'(?) at the Big Bang where the 'state' was something else, not involving what we call 'dimensions' and then 'folded itself out' into what we see as 'mass' and 'space', as they need each other to be a working concept (spacetime' then space should be isotropic and without 'faults/rips' as that would circumvent us finding anything 'outside' it? So seen from a great 'height' with the vision of 'God' our spacetime could be totally different and no 'bauble' at all, but as we are only allowed certain ways of perceiving it will still be a 'whole' to us. And it would also mean that there is no least indivisible 'thingie' if we won't count a different topology to be that 'knot'. The forces we see I think is wholly 'spacetimes' :) and will have no meaning 'outside' of it. Kind of crazy huh.
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Offline Vern

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« Reply #80 on: 20/03/2009 13:57:17 »
That works pretty well with me yor_on. We have space, time, and stuff. Absent any one of those three, we have essentially nothing.

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Offline Vern

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« Reply #81 on: 20/03/2009 15:45:07 »
Quote from: DoctorBeaver
I don't see that we trash the laws of nature. We don't know for certain what those laws are, or even if universal laws actually exist. All we can say is that they appear to hold true for the visible universe. There may be regions (domains) outside our visible universe where the laws are very different.
You are correct; we don't know for certain; but we do know that we have never observed a violation of what we consider to be natures laws. We can imagine that nature is different than we have so far perceived it. But we may have perceived nature correctly, and just refuse to accept it in its natural beauty. [:)]

I'm thinking of our need to get into string theory and such.[:)]

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Offline DoctorBeaver

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« Reply #82 on: 20/03/2009 21:20:43 »
Interesting :)  Myself I've thought of inflation as a 'topological defect' or maybe it's what came after inflation that is the 'topological defect' :) And that is as I think of space and matter as some kind of 'mirroring' of each other. So as soon we have 'matter' we will have 'space', and 'c'. But as I see it, that doesn't define what was before.


But how would you account for the fact that matter didn't exist in the very early universe. It was far too hot. Space was there, but not matter.
Drawing an absolute differentiation between matter and energy is a tricky proposition. Remember the famous formula? E=mc^2

But there plainly is a difference. You can stick your finger through energy, you can't do that to matter.

My point was that in the first 10-silly number seconds there was no matter at all. It hadn't formed. I think in physics terms the moment when matter began to form is called de-coupling. But space already existed when matter & radiation de-coupled.
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« Reply #83 on: 20/03/2009 23:03:29 »







But there plainly is a difference. You can stick your finger through energy, you can't do that to matter.


How would you then define matter, would the electron qualify?

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Offline DoctorBeaver

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« Reply #84 on: 21/03/2009 08:51:45 »
I wouldn't define it. I don't presume to know enough about the subject. I've seen timelines and read articles that say that matter began forming at 10-n seconds after the BB. Maybe baryogenesis has something to do with it?
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Ethos

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« Reply #85 on: 21/03/2009 17:51:01 »
I wouldn't define it.

Actually, Wikipedia defines it as:

Anything having both mass and volume. I believe that the electron meets both those criteria. Now we'll need to ask when the Leptons were created subsequent to the Big Bang won't we? Does anyone have this information here at Naked..................Ethos

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Offline DoctorBeaver

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« Reply #86 on: 21/03/2009 18:23:37 »
The quark epoch was between 10-12 seconds and 10-6 seconds. As they are the fundamental particles of which hadrons are made they can possibly be classed as matter.
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« Reply #87 on: 21/03/2009 22:15:35 »
The quark epoch was between 10-12 seconds and 10-6 seconds. As they are the fundamental particles of which hadrons are made they can possibly be classed as matter.
Astute observation DocB, and about that judgement, I would have to agree. That is, unless some evidence to support an earlier form of matter becomes clear to science............Ethos