[Variola]

3 How did this fantastic behaviour 'evolve' - and HOW DID THE REQUIRED INFORMATION ENTER THE GENOME?

You think directions are programmed into the genome like data??

As we all know, or should know, mutations are  invariably damaging or at best neutral. Have a look on Google at the effects of mutations on the human genome and phenotype if you doubt this.

No they are not. Try a good genetics book instead of cherry picking from google.
You are confusing mutations that have already happened, i.e evolution, to mutations that are happening or might happen to a living organism right now.
Mutations that have happened in the past, evolution have been beneficial to some species, the other have died out. It has enabled us to advance to the state where now, even with the massive amount we do know about evolution we still find ourselves arguing with wallies on forums who don't appear to have grasped even the basics of evolution, but who choose to act snotty towards others who have.

You are arguing that your invisible friend is responsible for birds migrating.

[Asyncritus]

We know that birds, bats and some insects have heamatite particles in their brains which respond to the earth's magnetic field - this is what enables them to navigate so well.

You know that there is no evidence for a creator, and you also know that you are unwilling to engage in a genuine debate of the facts, so why do you insist on continuing?

[Allow me to disagree with this comment. As I pointed out in my previous post, you don't need to have met the Wright brothers, or Carl Benz to know they existed. Their work is adequate evidence that they did exist. Same here. The probability of intelligence arising from non-intelligence or chaos, is zero. Ten billion years is not enough for a rock to produce a swallow. That is evidence of creative activity, like it or not.]

People have been banned from this forum for crusading before, and with your acknowledgement that you are unwilling to accept any explanation other than your own, you have admitted to crusading against evolution.

Remember Galileo?

And aren't you guys crusading FOR evolution?

And just look at Variola's (well named there!) post. How intelligent and informed is that?

'Go see some genetics textbook,' is the remark. I've seen some, owned some, studied some, and want to hear some reasoned comments on the material there that supports the idea that mutations can have caused evolution to take place AT THE RATE NEEDED TO PRODUCE THE CAMBRIAN EXPLOSION, for starters.

The London Daily Express (August 14, 1981) put the conclusion of these two scientists into headlines: "Two skeptical scientists put their heads together and reached an amazing conclusion: There must be a God." *Hoyle and *Wickramasinghe concluded in their book that the probability of producing life, anywhere in the universe from evolutionary processes, was as reasonable as getting a fully operational Boeing 747 jumbo jet from a tornado going through a junkyard (*Fred Hoyle, Science, November 12, 1981, p. 105). The co-discoverer of the DNA molecule said this:

"An honest man, armed with all the knowledge available to us now, could only state that in some sense, the origin of life appears at the moment to be almost a miracle, so many are the conditions which would have had to have been satisfied to get it going."—*Francis Crick, Life Itself: Its Origin and Nature (1981), p. 88
http://www.pathlights.com/ce_encyclopedia/sci-ev/sci_vs_ev_5.htm

Here are some more horrors:

"The questions asked by George Gaylord Simpson in his 1944 "The Tempo and Mode of Evolution," concerning the size of mutations, the pace of morphological change and the apparent discontinuous origins of taxa in the fossil record, are far from resolved. Indeed, they are being debated more strongly than ever, because of the growing conviction amongst many biologists that observations from developmental biology and palaeontology are inconsistent with the Neodarwinian hypothesis championed by Simpson."
http://icb.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/full/43/1/148

And, says variola, mutations that have happened then are different to the ones that are happening now! What nonsense. I'd go read a good textbook (elementary, of course!) on genetics if I were you, variola.

And I think some moderator ought to have a word about this:

"we still find ourselves arguing with wallies on forums who don't appear to have grasped even the basics of evolution, but who choose to act snotty towards others who have.

This is pure ad hominem. Nothing to do with migration pattern origin - but then, I didn't expect anything constructive. There IS nothing constructive that can be said. The biggest ornithological brains can't produce anything worthwhile- so who is variola anyway?

And somebody finds haematite in the birds' brains - and lo and behold, that explains how a golden plover can migrate 2000 miles over the Pacific ocean! I guess a cannibal, with an iron nail stuck through his nose, can migrate 2000 miles across the Pacific and back every year too!

Heh heh heh!

[Variola]

What nonsense. I'd go read a good textbook (elementary, of course!) on genetics if I were you, variola.

Yeah, I figured that might be your response. I've met ostriches before.

so who is variola anyway?

Small pox of course.

And I think some moderator ought to have a word about this:

Why? Are you offended by a general observation? Or do you percieve yourself as a wally?

And somebody finds haematite in the birds' brains - and lo and behold, that explains how a golden plover can migrate 2000 miles over the Pacific ocean! I guess a cannibal, with an iron nail stuck through his nose, can migrate 2000 miles across the Pacific and back every year too!

And a chap like yourself is still arguing that his invisible friend has created the process which can be traced back through endosymbiosis. An invisible fried that you have no proof of yet you demand some proof from us. It is amusing. []

Have a good day Asyncritus.

[112inky]

thanks for the posts...A quick question to all...Why do the animals hibernate?

[Asyncritus]

What nonsense. I'd go read a good textbook (elementary, of course!) on genetics if I were you, variola.

Yeah, I figured that might be your response. I've met ostriches before.

Probably talk to them, do you?

so who is variola anyway?

Small pox of course.

Notice the pronoun? 'Who' - not 'what'. There's a difference.

And I think some moderator ought to have a word about this:

Why? Are you offended by a general observation? Or do you percieve yourself as a wally?

I find this kind of remark obnoxious. It sheds no light on the subject in hand, and while it may vent your spleen, I'd rather you go vent it someplace else. I can be as insulting as the worst, but I choose not to do that. So can I humbly request that you treat me as you would like to be treated yourself?

And somebody finds haematite in the birds' brains - and lo and behold, that explains how a golden plover can migrate 2000 miles over the Pacific ocean! I guess a cannibal, with an iron nail stuck through his nose, can migrate 2000 miles across the Pacific and back every year too!
 
And a chap like yourself is still arguing that his invisible friend has created the process which can be traced back through endosymbiosis. An invisible fried that you have no proof of yet you demand some proof from us. It is amusing. []

Yeah, I can see the cannibal leaping off the cliff into the ocean, setting off on his 2000 mile journey, if he thought he was a bird, or his 1400 mile journey to Ascension Island if he thought he was a green turtle in Brazil.

Would you go with him?

Have a good day Asyncritus.

Thank you. I will. You too.

But BTW, how did the migratory instinct get into the swallows?

[Asyncritus]

thanks for the posts...A quick question to all...Why do the animals hibernate?

The animals hibernate as a designed response to the cold conditions.

Their lack of movement requires no energy expenditure, and their energy supplies decrease very slowly.

Many go on a feeding spree in the autumn, and load up with fat, which acts as an energy store for the winter months. They act as if they know that food shortage season is coming! That's instinctive behaviour, and is open to the questions I asked about the birds, so I won't ask them again.

Their metabolism slows way way down, almost to the point of death, but they conserve energy, which is used up extremely slowly. In some cases, the energy consumption in 7 mths of hibernation ony equals 17% of the annual usage!

Hope that helps.

Async

[Variola]

Probably talk to them, do you?

Yes, they are my god. Difference being I can see them and know they exist.

Notice the pronoun? 'Who' - not 'what'. There's a difference.

Sarcasm goes over your head then?

I find this kind of remark obnoxious

Heat, kitchen etc
I find it obnoxious when people refuse to accept that there are other explanations for events and instread carry on crusading for their own cause. But thats what happens on forums.

It sheds no light on the subject in hand, and while it may vent your spleen, I'd rather you go vent it someplace else. I can be as insulting as the worst,

I have pointed out, that you are refusing to accept any answers given, yet you cannot prove your invisible friend exists.Prove to me your god exists and I wil be more than willing to accept he has single handedly engineered the genome in migrating birds. You are arguing from a no-legs viewpoint Asyncritus.

Yeah, I can see the cannibal leaping off the cliff into the ocean, setting off on his 2000 mile journey, if he thought he was a bird, or his 1400 mile journey to Ascension Island if he thought he was a green turtle in Brazil.

 


And you claim to have read a genetics book?

Would you go with him?

Only if you were there to wave me off Async.

[lyner]

Variola
You are wasting your time trying to educate or reform him.
Find some more fruitful threads to make your contributions - you'll enjoy it better.
Part time goddess, eh?

[Variola]

Variola
You are wasting your time trying to educate or reform him.
Find some more fruitful threads to make your contributions - you'll enjoy it better

Yeah true, I think I will take your advice  []

Part time goddess, eh?

Well I try....  []

[Chemistry4me]

Why not full time? []

[Variola]

Why not full time? []

I study and I have 3 rugrats, it leaves little time to devote to the art of being goddess-like!

[Asyncritus]

Probably talk to them, do you?

Yes, they are my god. Difference being I can see them and know they exist.

Well done. If you only believe in things you can see, then I pity you.

Notice the pronoun? 'Who' - not 'what'. There's a difference.

Sarcasm goes over your head then?

It obviously goes over yours!

I find this kind of remark obnoxious

Heat, kitchen etc
I find it obnoxious when people refuse to accept that there are other explanations for events and instread carry on crusading for their own cause. But thats what happens on forums.

You mean, if you lay a rotten egg, I've GOT to eat it, or be subjected to your obnoxiousness?

It sheds no light on the subject in hand, and while it may vent your spleen, I'd rather you go vent it someplace else. I can be as insulting as the worst,

I have pointed out, that you are refusing to accept any answers given, yet you cannot prove your invisible friend exists.Prove to me your god exists and I wil be more than willing to accept he has single handedly engineered the genome in migrating birds. You are arguing from a no-legs viewpoint Asyncritus.

You ever seen Carl Benz? Or Napoleon?

Yeah, I can see the cannibal leaping off the cliff into the ocean, setting off on his 2000 mile journey, if he thought he was a bird, or his 1400 mile journey to Ascension Island if he thought he was a green turtle in Brazil.

 

And you claim to have read a genetics book?

And you claim to know what sarcasm means?

Would you go with him?

Only if you were there to wave me off Async.

I would, I would, believe me!

But BTW, now we're finished throwing dust in the air, I missed your answer to

a. How did the GPS get into the bird genome?

b. What makes them fly so far?

Come on, goddess. You've got to be cleverer than the ornithological ignorami on the forum.

[dentstudent]

...yet you cannot prove your invisible friend exists.Prove to me your god exists ...

You ever seen Carl Benz? Or Napoleon?

A lovely little bit of magic there from Async - just beautiful!

[Variola]

A lovely little bit of magic there from Async - just beautiful!

Not really, its actually a moot point, often brought up in these type of debates by people like Async, which is why I wasn't going to bother answering it. There are validated historical records to show that Napoleon existed, he was a living factual person. I have never seen a million pounds, but I know it exists.
If a blind person can't see a tree, does that mean the tree doesn't exist??

What Async is trying to do is suggest that some diet, of which there is no physical proof whatsoever, has single handedly engineered migrating birds genome.
What I am pointing out is that he demands explanations, refuses them and claims his explanation ofgod is better, yet fails every time to prove god even exists!
I could say that I beleif in pink elephants, and that they engineered the genome, i have never seen a pink elephant, just as no one has ever seen god. Show me the difference? There is none.

[lyner]

He just craves attention. Don't give it to him.
GIVE IT TO YOUR RUGRATS - they deserve it!

[Asyncritus]

A lovely little bit of magic there from Async - just beautiful!

Not really, its actually a moot point, often brought up in these type of debates by people like Async, which is why I wasn't going to bother answering it. There are validated historical records to show that Napoleon existed, he was a living factual person. I have never seen a million pounds, but I know it exists.
If a blind person can't see a tree, does that mean the tree doesn't exist??

Absolutely correct point. And your refutation is...?

What Async is trying to do is suggest that some diet, of which there is no physical proof whatsoever, has single handedly engineered migrating birds genome.

I'm still waiting for your better explanation! I think I may have a long wait, but there's hope while there's life. I suppose.

What I am pointing out is that he demands explanations, refuses them and claims his explanation ofgod is better, yet fails every time to prove god even exists!

Not quite. I am demanding VALIDATED,specifically relevant explanations - from the literature, where doubt is not expressed as to whether guess A or B is correct.

Here's a statement of the blinding obvious, and note, no explanation of the origin of the behaviour is offered:

"Furthermore, migration requires genetic instructions (allowing substantial room for learning in some of the traits [the golden plover and the Monarch butterflies make a terrible hash of this piece of nonsense] about timing, duration and distance of migration as well as about behavioural and physiological adaptations (fuelling, organ flexibility, locomotion, use of environmental transport etc) and control of orientation and navigation."
http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal/118834311/abstract?CRETRY=1&SRETRY=0

I could say that I beleif in pink elephants, and that they engineered the genome, i have never seen a pink elephant, just as no one has ever seen god. Show me the difference? There is none.

Can we please adhere to the point without these inane diversions?

You are all being called to account for the origin of the migratory habit of the Capistrano swallows.

This is a science forum, and I don't believe that asking a scientifically valid question about scientifically observed behaviour is unreasonable.

How does the theory of evolution account for the origin of such behaviour? Darwin's book, remember, was 'On the Origin of Species.' So can adherents to his theory please account for the origin of the behaviour? The key word here is ORIGIN.

PS re pink elephants: go here http://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?topic=21396.0

[_Stefan_]

We have already explained this. You are just willfully ignorant. Any IDiot should be able to understand this:

1. Instinct is the result of the structure and function of brains and bodies.
2. Genes produce proteins that control, influence, build, maintain, etc, brains and bodies.
3. Genes are variable because of mutation and recombination.
4. Different gene variations produce different proteins.
5. Different proteins translate genetic differences into differences in phenotype ("appearance"), including behavior, through complex chemical interactions.
6. Some variations are more beneficial than others.
7. Organisms with those beneficial variations are more likely to survive and reproduce in each generation.
8. Survival and reproduction allows beneficial variations to accumulate and be conserved over generations.

Function does not magically appear in the genome. It is produced by changes to the DNA sequence. The only party postulating magical causation here is you.

Your disagreement with the theory of evolution only reflects your own faulty intellect, nothing else.

[BenV]

Async will not be responding this time, as he has been banned.  To many times he was told that his crusading attitude and wilful refusal to engage in the debate would lead to him being banned from the forum, yet he proceeded.

I think it's very telling that he admitted that he would not accept any explanation that didn't include his god - regardless of the weight of evidence behind it.

[Variola]

Async will not be responding this time, as he has been banned.  To many times he was told that his crusading attitude and wilful refusal to engage in the debate would lead to him being banned from the forum, yet he proceeded.

I think it's very telling that he admitted that he would not accept any explanation that didn't include his god - regardless of the weight of evidence behind it.

Oop! I hadn't intended to provoke anything like that, if my part did provoke it then I apologise unreservedly.

[dentstudent]

A lovely little bit of magic there from Async - just beautiful!

Not really, its actually a moot point, often brought up in these type of debates by people like Async, which is why I wasn't going to bother answering it. There are validated historical records to show that Napoleon existed, he was a living factual person. I have never seen a million pounds, but I know it exists.
If a blind person can't see a tree, does that mean the tree doesn't exist??

What Async is trying to do is suggest that some diet, of which there is no physical proof whatsoever, has single handedly engineered migrating birds genome.
What I am pointing out is that he demands explanations, refuses them and claims his explanation ofgod is better, yet fails every time to prove god even exists!
I could say that I beleif in pink elephants, and that they engineered the genome, i have never seen a pink elephant, just as no one has ever seen god. Show me the difference? There is none.

Hi Variola

I was being ironic! What Async stated here is possibly the most ridiculous argument ever, and is a common answer posited by creationists. I just loved the fact that Async chose to use this, when it is such a useless and fallacious argument.