Why do we blame carbon dioxide for global warming?

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Offline Henry Pool

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Without Carbon dioxide there wouldn't be any supper on the table. Yet, if we read the papers and magazines it is singled out as the biggest culprit for global warming. The problem is: I have never seen any evidence for this from any real physical tests. Is it really true? If yes,
How much is the influence of varying amounts of CO2 in the atmosphere on global warming? I am particular interested in the range of 0 - 500 ppm . (Current CO2 content in the air is about  375 ppm. It has increased by about 70 ppm's since 1960 and it is apparently increasing by about 2.5 ppm per annum)

 

   

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Offline dentstudent

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Why do we blame carbon dioxide for global warming?
« Reply #1 on: 27/04/2009 15:32:57 »
Here is a lecture given by Nicholas Stern recently. It is his Blueprint for a Safer Planet and was given at the London School of Economics. It's very interesting...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/series/science/podcast.xml

Click on the link, and it's the second podcast down.


IIRC, there is no chance of CO2 levels remaining below 500 ppm. 550 is a minimum, and could very easily go to 750.
« Last Edit: 27/04/2009 15:35:24 by dentstudent »

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Offline Henry Pool

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« Reply #2 on: 27/04/2009 16:03:17 »
yes, I did listen, and he does exactly the same as what everyone else does in this field, blame carbon emissions and resulting green house gas for global warmimg, without offering any physical evidence or proof.

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Offline dentstudent

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« Reply #3 on: 27/04/2009 16:16:24 »
You're welcome.


And in response to your question, noone blames CO2 for ALL the GCC (please stop calling it GW - it isn't). CO2 is PART of it, and is perhaps the most easily addressed. It is well established that CO2 is a GHG, yes? Increased GHGs increases retained energy, yes? CO2 has increased by 25% in the last few decades, yes?

I'm not sure I see what the problem is. Yes, there are other influences on GCC, but (to use that awful phrase) CO2 provides the low-hanging fruit, and it is predicted through extensive modelling, that GCC in response to CO2 increases, is not linear due to feedback processes. By the time that it has reached 750 ppm, there is a roughly 50% likelihood of an increase in temperature of 6 or 7C, which will have profound effects on the net carbon storage of forests, for example. They will no longer be sinks, but sources due to reductions in photosynthesis, reduced productivity and increased mortality. And if the forests go, not to put too fine a point on it, you're buggered. Completely. Because of CO2.

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Offline Henry Pool

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« Reply #4 on: 27/04/2009 17:00:47 »
SORRY, thanks, for your help!

But I am not there yet! I am trailing years behind. I must first be convinced that CO2 is a green house gas, for which I have not yet seen any physical evidence. My current opinion is that CO2 absorbs in the infra red region, meaning it blocks IR, keeping it out, rather then in. (Similar to ozone blocking UV). So I say that CO2 is not a green house gas. My current theory is that global warming is (mostly) caused by just heat (caused by human activity).   

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Offline dentstudent

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Why do we blame carbon dioxide for global warming?
« Reply #5 on: 27/04/2009 17:13:21 »
SORRY, thanks, for your help!

Ha! No worries [:)]

Wikipedia is often a reasonable first-stop-shop.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greenhouse_gas

I haven't read all of the following, but in any case shows a history of the CO2 GHG case.

http://www.aip.org/history/climate/co2.htm

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Offline Bored chemist

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Why do we blame carbon dioxide for global warming?
« Reply #6 on: 27/04/2009 20:33:34 »
SORRY, thanks, for your help!

But I am not there yet! I am trailing years behind. I must first be convinced that CO2 is a green house gas, for which I have not yet seen any physical evidence. My current opinion is that CO2 absorbs in the infra red region, meaning it blocks IR, keeping it out, rather then in. (Similar to ozone blocking UV). So I say that CO2 is not a green house gas. My current theory is that global warming is (mostly) caused by just heat (caused by human activity).  
Why have you ignored the evidence put forward in the other thread you started about this?
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Offline Henry Pool

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« Reply #7 on: 27/04/2009 21:20:01 »
sorry, but I have still not yet seen any evidence from anyone that proves to me that carbon dioxide is a green house gas.

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Offline Ophiolite

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« Reply #8 on: 27/04/2009 21:48:29 »
sorry, but I have still not yet seen any evidence from anyone that proves to me that carbon dioxide is a green house gas.
Henry, you have provided the evidence yourself. You make this statement. "My current opinion is that CO2 absorbs in the infra red region, meaning it blocks IR, keeping it out, rather then in."

Guess what, you have it half right. The incoming radiation, principally short wave (to which CO2 is transparent)but the outgoing radiation transmitted from the surface in long wave (i.e. infra-red) is absorbed by the CO2.
Let me repeat that, so that you are clear. The incoming radiation that heats the Earth's surface is of a frequency that readily passes through carbon dioxide. The outgoing radiation, of longer wavelength, is trapped by carbon dioxide (and water vapour, and methane) for precisely the reason you have stated.
Observe; collate; conjecture; analyse; hypothesise; test; validate; theorise. Repeat until complete.

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Offline Henry Pool

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« Reply #9 on: 28/04/2009 05:02:35 »
This could make some sense to me. But I still want to see the proof. How can you be 100% sure that initially the CO2 does not cause a cooling effect (by keeing some IR out) and then subsequently a warming effect (by keeping some IR in), making the net result more or less zero? I really would like to see the experimental proof of what you say, i.e. proof that CO2 is a greenhouse gas (i.e. warming effect CO2> cooling effect caused by CO2). 

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Offline Ophiolite

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Why do we blame carbon dioxide for global warming?
« Reply #10 on: 28/04/2009 07:42:11 »
This could make some sense to me. But I still want to see the proof. How can you be 100% sure that initially the CO2 does not cause a cooling effect (by keeing some IR out) and then subsequently a warming effect (by keeping some IR in), making the net result more or less zero? I really would like to see the experimental proof of what you say, i.e. proof that CO2 is a greenhouse gas (i.e. warming effect CO2> cooling effect caused by CO2). 
This could make some sense to me. But I still want to see the proof. How can you be 100% sure that initially the CO2 does not cause a cooling effect (by keeing some IR out) and then subsequently a warming effect (by keeping some IR in), making the net result more or less zero? I really would like to see the experimental proof of what you say, i.e. proof that CO2 is a greenhouse gas (i.e. warming effect CO2> cooling effect caused by CO2). 
There are a wealth of experimental data demonstrating the absorption of infrared radiation by CO2. You appear to have accepted these data. That is only one half of what makes it a greenhouse gas. The other half is the fact incoming solar radiation from the sun is dominated by short wave radiation - and CO2 is transparent to this - while outgoing radiation is long wave, which is absorbed by CO2. It is the difference in inocming and outgoing wavelentghts that allows the CO2 to act as a greenhouse gas.

Here is an interesting historical link on the topic.
http://www.aip.org/history/climate/co2.htm
Observe; collate; conjecture; analyse; hypothesise; test; validate; theorise. Repeat until complete.

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Offline Bored chemist

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« Reply #11 on: 28/04/2009 08:05:55 »
"How can you be 100% sure that initially the CO2 does not cause a cooling effect (by keeing some IR out)"
"out " of what? The atmosphere is part of the earth.
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Offline Henry Pool

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« Reply #12 on: 28/04/2009 08:20:52 »
when I was last at school I learned that the sun emits the whole spectrum of radiation, from the invisble UV right through all colours of the rainbow to the invisible on the other side. That includes the radiation that C-O. Has something changed in the 40 years that I was not at college? So my theory is still that the C-O blocks as much radiation coming in as what it holds by preventing it going out. (similar to ozone blocking UV). But tell me that have some experimental proof for the statement that you are making.

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Offline Henry Pool

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« Reply #13 on: 28/04/2009 10:14:03 »
You see what the problem is? Whenever you ask for experimental proof it is simply not there. I still have not seen any physical proof or evidence from any tests that carbon dioxide is to blame for global warming. Everyone thought that someone would do it, in the end no one did it. Surely, you can only believe in what you can verify?

The scientists who predict climate warming just study the increase in temperature of the oceans, and then they can quite accurately predict what the increase in energy per square area will be for the next couple of years or decades. Then they blame green house gasses. What else must they do? It has become a belief. That must be it. wow, sorry that I am not one of the faithful to this belief. My current theory, based on the proposed mechanisms, is that the so-called green house gasses may prevent as much heat from coming in as the heat that they trap. 

Where does that leave us? well I still have my own theory which no one can proof wrong. I say; the reason why the temperature in the oceans are rising is very simple. It is the same reason as what you note what happens when you put the kettle on. It is the energy that you put in that makes the water in the kettle warm. I think all 6.7 million of us just do not realize how much energy we are putting in the kettle called earth.
     

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Offline Henry Pool

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« Reply #14 on: 28/04/2009 10:37:06 »
I'm so sorry. Are we 6.7 billion now living on earth?

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Offline Karsten

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Why do we blame carbon dioxide for global warming?
« Reply #15 on: 28/04/2009 17:43:59 »
This could make some sense to me. But I still want to see the proof. How can you be 100% sure that initially the CO2 does not cause a cooling effect (by keeing some IR out) and then subsequently a warming effect (by keeping some IR in), making the net result more or less zero? I really would like to see the experimental proof of what you say, i.e. proof that CO2 is a greenhouse gas (i.e. warming effect CO2> cooling effect caused by CO2). 

This is the way I understand it:

Sunlight (UV, visible, and infrared) arrives from the sun at our planet. When it strikes the atmosphere, some gets reflected, some gets absorbed, some goes right through and reaches the ground. When visible light strikes the ground, especially dark surfaces, it gets transformed into infrared. Anything in our atmosphere that has the ability to absorb infrared and allow our atmosphere to get warmer seems to be a problem. Higher CO2 in our atmosphere is not blocking infrared out, it is collecting it better than an atmosphere with less CO2. Both ways. Incoming and leaving. Who says that CO2 has ANY cooling effect?
« Last Edit: 28/04/2009 17:48:09 by Karsten »
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Offline Henry Pool

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« Reply #16 on: 28/04/2009 18:01:49 »
"seems" is the word I caught. Show me the proof and I am your buddy!
It is I who said that CO2 causes some cooling. Because it absorbs IR in the IR region. Meaning it (also) blocks IR. And of course it traps it when it tries to return to space. So, the net effect is zero?

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Offline BenV

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« Reply #17 on: 28/04/2009 18:58:38 »
It is I who said that CO2 causes some cooling. Because it absorbs IR in the IR region. Meaning it (also) blocks IR. And of course it traps it when it tries to return to space. So, the net effect is zero?
So it absorbs it on the way in, heating the atmosphere, and then it absorbs it on the way out, heating the atmosphere...

Don't forget that there is IR created on the ground too - it's not that the only IR around comes from the sun.
 
Net effect is clearly far from zero...

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Offline Henry Pool

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« Reply #18 on: 28/04/2009 19:12:57 »
Wake up man! If CO2 blocks IR radiation coming in, it means that it cools down (for us).Then it also traps it when it tries to leave. So it warms up. So, I say, the net effect is zero? Nobody knows. Did someone test it?   It seems not/ I have not seen any data related to an actual verifyable experiment!

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Offline Bored chemist

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« Reply #19 on: 28/04/2009 19:46:49 »
The CO2 in the air absorbs IR directly from the sun; this warms the atmosphere and some of that heat is transfered to the groud, partly by reradiation, partly by convection. Also visible light shines through the CO2 and warms the surface of the earth.
Both these effects warm the planet.
As the planet gets warmer it emits more radiation but, because it is a lot colder than the sun it doesn't emit any visible light - just IR.
Some of that IR is absorbed by the atmosphere's CO2 and is carried by the winds back to the surface.
In order to reach thermal equlibrium where the heat absorbed from the sun is the same as that radiated the world has to be slightly warmer than it would be without the CO2 getting in the way of some of the outgoing IR.

Also, you keep asking for proof. Did you watch the youtube video?
It's not great proof, but it's a lot better than any evidence you have put forward.

I take it you didn't understand my earlier post
""How can you be 100% sure that initially the CO2 does not cause a cooling effect (by keeing some IR out)"
"out " of what? The atmosphere is part of the earth."
If it's a sunny day and I put my hand up to keep the sun off my face, it doesn't help keep me cool, because my hand is still getting warm, and it's part of me.
« Last Edit: 28/04/2009 19:49:19 by Bored chemist »
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Offline BenV

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« Reply #20 on: 28/04/2009 19:54:13 »
I don't think you're paying attention.

CO2 absorbs some IR as it comes into the atmosphere from the sun.  As the CO2 is a component of the atmosphere - this heats the atmosphere up.

The remaining radiation shines upon the Earth.  Some of this is absorbed, some is reflected.  Some is taken in as visible, or as UV, and given back out as IR.  This 'new' IR radiates out towards space.  It is absorbed by CO2 in the atmosphere, heating the atmosphere up.

Do you see why "the net effect is zero" is an implausable statement?

Anyway, what you want is experimental evidence - Look up John Tyndal and Svante Arrhenious.  Furthermore, look up "Greenhouse effect" in wikipedia - that'll give you a good grounding of the evidence.

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Offline Henry Pool

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« Reply #21 on: 28/04/2009 20:32:33 »
here we go again. Endless circles. But I do appreciate your help! Please do provide me with the physical evidence (from actual performed experiments, tests and measurements) that would somehow prove to me that CO2 is a green house gas. Not just the "theory". Please try not to refer to books and historical people, stories and anecdotes.. I'm really not interested. I just want to see the actual proof, by way of physical testing, in such a way that a layman can understand it. I just want to verify myself the test results. 
I do not have the books that you have. I did find a report that seems to apportion blame to 'green house gases" by way of "radiative forcing" .
In this respect CO2 is "responsible" for RF of 1.66  W/m2> I am not sure what physical experiments (on gas) are behind such a measurement. I think it is just from temp. measurements of the sea that they apportion blame, based on the "growth" of the chemical in the air. I am really not sure. It is all still a mystery to me. I think... I am  really stupid? Maybe, the people wanting to prove climate change, just made it too difficult?

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Offline Bored chemist

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« Reply #22 on: 28/04/2009 21:19:43 »
Once again.
"Sod this pointless argument. Let's take a planet and add lots of CO2 to the atmosphere and see if the temperature goes up.
OK, done that. It did. End of debate."
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Offline BenV

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« Reply #23 on: 28/04/2009 23:09:30 »
Henry - why don't you do your own research?  You clearly have internet access, so start with wikipedia and google the things you find interesting.  I gave you two names - look up their publications for a start.  both of those scientists did repeatable experiments into the capacity for certain gases to act as greenhouse gases over 100 years ago.

We have given you the lay mans explanation.  If you want more detail then simply research it!

Did you look up either of the people I mentioned?  Did you look at the emission/absorbtion spectra on wikipedia?  These things are gathered through the sorts of experiment you're asking for - so simply look them up.

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Offline Ophiolite

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« Reply #24 on: 29/04/2009 05:30:47 »
Henry,
the University of Iowa offers an set of online notes (with extensive references) on the subject of global change:
http://www.iitap.iastate.edu/gccourse/

In particular Unit 1-12, the Global Energy balance, directly addresses the points you seem concerned with and expresses what many here have been saying, perhaps with greater clarity and cohesion.
http://www.iitap.iastate.edu/gccourse/forcing/forcing.html

Please read this and the related references. Once you have done so come back with any remaining questions you may have. Frankly, if you choose not to do so I shall be forced to believe you have no interest in learning, but wish to remain permanently ignorant on this matter. I hope that is not so.
Observe; collate; conjecture; analyse; hypothesise; test; validate; theorise. Repeat until complete.

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Offline Henry Pool

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« Reply #25 on: 29/04/2009 07:52:10 »
look folks, with all due respect, I don't have the facility to download millions of bytes here. I did do some research and got stuck with radiative forcing. I don't know how they measure it. (Dimensions: W/m2 for a gas?)
The question I asked was simple. Why do we blame CO2? Most chemists here agree that the difference between CO2 and the other natural gases is that it absorbs in the IR region. But that must also mean that it blocks IR coming in. (similar to ozone blocking UV). O then said that much more shorter radiation passes through to earth which is reflected (by the earth) as IR, meaning the net effect is much more entrapment. I then said: good,show me the proof. Ben and the others believe that there is no blocking of IR by CO2. (so no cooling effect, only warming). But no proof. I have not seen any test results or formula's from the scientists who apparently proved that CO2 acts like a blanket.
As to the second part of my question, i.e. what is the influence of varying amounts of CO2 on global warming: I must say that I am disappointed that I did not get any results from anyone and I also could not find any results myself. One would have thought that the big stake holders (like fuel companies) would have done extensive research on this aspect of their product, i.e. to make accurate predictions as to where we are going with this.
Don't you people think that is disgusting?

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Offline Bored chemist

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« Reply #26 on: 29/04/2009 08:00:28 »
Why are you ignoring the biggest ever experiment on this question?
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Offline Henry Pool

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« Reply #27 on: 29/04/2009 08:17:49 »
Dear BC. As I said before, unless and until I am myself convinced that the problem really is CO2, I have to go with the theory that I can believe in.

You don't know how much energy has gone into earth by all the fires and wars and burning and transport caused by human activity. So you cannot prove that my theory is wrong.

If it is your belief that the problem is CO2, then why not tell me what experimental proof you have for that belief, other than saying: see it is there, so it must be true? 

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Offline BenV

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« Reply #28 on: 29/04/2009 09:06:08 »
Henry - please pay more attention to what people say.

When you talk about co2 'blocking' IR - what do you mean?  Do you think it magically dissipates the IR?  We know from experimental evidence that co2 absorbs IR.  You are quite correct to assume that this means less IR will hit the ground.  You seem to be ignoring the fact that this IR is absorbed in the atmosphere - thus making it warmer.

We are also aware, from experimental evidence (the spectra that falls on the moon for example) that the earth emits more IR than first falls on it, for reasons that Bored Chemist explained earlier.

So the evidence is there - in the absorbtion spectra of CO2, the emission spectra of the earth...

No-one here has the time to collate all of the facts and figures for you - that's your responsibility.

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Offline dentstudent

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Why do we blame carbon dioxide for global warming?
« Reply #29 on: 29/04/2009 09:06:44 »
Today's logical fallacy is the argument from personal incredulity.

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Offline Henry Pool

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« Reply #30 on: 29/04/2009 10:01:24 »
If you people think the questions are answered, fine. I don't. I am not even convinced CO2 is a contributary factor to the problem. I actually hoped to see some facts and figures. I thought someone would be able to convince me with data from actual experiments. I could not find such.

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Offline dentstudent

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« Reply #31 on: 29/04/2009 10:10:54 »
Henry - It is your burden of proof to show that CO2 is NOT a GHG, since the worldwide scientific consensus is that it is. Until that happens, I would say that you are on your own.

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Offline Henry Pool

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« Reply #32 on: 29/04/2009 10:42:43 »
When this discussion started a couple of decades ago, I remember thinking that I hoped that someone would think of some way of testing the influence of the various gaseous compounds on heat retention. It seems to me that that very thing that I had been thinking has not really happened. I cannot believe in what I cannot verify. If I am the only dissenting scientist, fine. It does not bother me. That has happened before, and sometimes I was proven right.   

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Offline BenV

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« Reply #33 on: 29/04/2009 10:45:02 »
If you people think the questions are answered, fine. I don't. I am not even convinced CO2 is a contributary factor to the problem. I actually hoped to see some facts and figures. I thought someone would be able to convince me with data from actual experiments. I could not find such.
Start with wikipedia Henry - the facts and figures are there.

Stop coming here to lie about the missing data, when you just haven't bothered looking.

By the way, the first experiments into this are well over 100 years old.

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Offline Henry Pool

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« Reply #34 on: 29/04/2009 11:52:39 »
I am sorry, but I did look in wikipedia and could not find any data. Is all about the people in the past who have said something on it. But no formulas and no test results. In any case, as to the second part of my question - can I ask you your personal opinion? Supposing that this question of mine had been properly researched and supposing that they had found no difference in heat retention in between 350 and 700 ppm CO2, (in other words: maybe there is some sort of a saturation point in heat retention), don't you think that would change the whole warming debate completely? In what way?

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Offline dentstudent

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« Reply #35 on: 29/04/2009 12:07:56 »
Don't just stop with Wikipedia - it's usually a good place to start, but have a go through this site. It lists many journals in which you will find ones that are specifically atmospheric oriented. Then go through the articles.

http://www.elsevier.com/wps/find/journal_browse.cws_home

Can I just say that you state that you are a scientist, and yet the approach that you are taking appears to be anything but. Surely you must be aware of how to properly research something?


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Offline Henry Pool

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« Reply #36 on: 29/04/2009 12:32:39 »
I am too old now. That is true. So I am trailing behind, with technology getting faster ahead of me. But you can do it for me? I will kiss you if you find some test results from actual experiments and tests/

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Offline dentstudent

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« Reply #37 on: 29/04/2009 12:42:36 »
I am too old now. That is true. So I am trailing behind, with technology getting faster ahead of me. But you can do it for me? I will kiss you if you find some test results from actual experiments and tests/

Hmm, tempting, but no thanks.

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Offline Henry Pool

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« Reply #38 on: 29/04/2009 19:48:54 »
You also couldn't find any data from actual experiments?

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Offline Bored chemist

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« Reply #39 on: 29/04/2009 19:55:15 »
Dear BC. As I said before, unless and until I am myself convinced that the problem really is CO2, I have to go with the theory that I can believe in.

You don't know how much energy has gone into earth by all the fires and wars and burning and transport caused by human activity. So you cannot prove that my theory is wrong.

If it is your belief that the problem is CO2, then why not tell me what experimental proof you have for that belief, other than saying: see it is there, so it must be true? 

OK
If you have to go with a theory you can believe in that's fine, but it's nothing to do with science and you are, therefore, posting on the wrong website.

I can calculate the energy released by all the fires wars and so on. I can do this because practically all of that energy is derived from the combustion of fossil fuels which add CO2 to the atmosphere. Since I know how much CO2 is being added I can calculate the energy release (actually, it's a bit more complicated than that because the plants pick up some of the CO2 released but there's a way round that. It involves the relative amount of radiocarbon in the air and it's well off topic)
Anyway, it doesn't matter. Unless you genuinely believe that we are each and every one of us responsible for wasting some sizable fraction of 20 million watts then you are talking nonsense as I have already repeatedly pointed out, and you have repeatedly ignored.
I have proved your theory wrong; you just didn't understand the proof.

I have shown that a greenhouse which has walls that are transparent to visible light, but opaque to IR works- it gets hotter inside.
I have personally measured the IR absorbtion of CO2. I hardly need to point out that CO2 is transparent to visible light.

I have, therfore made measurements of a model system and shown that the greenhouse effect works. I have shown that, like the glass in a greenhouse, the CO2 absorbs IR.
What more proof do you want>

Just in case this helps convince you, we have a gadget at work called a photoacustic IR spectrometer. We use it to measure the concentration of gases.
It works by shining a beam of IR into a gas mixture and observing the rise in temperature.

You are the one making extraordinary claims; start proiducing the extraordinary evidence that you need before anyone will take you seriously.


Please disregard all previous signatures.

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Offline Henry Pool

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« Reply #40 on: 29/04/2009 21:26:10 »
You keep approaching this problem from the same angle, I can see
1) you have not done that calculation
2) actual energy reaching earth by the sun is much lower then you were claiming
3) what about all the atomic bombs that were exploded mostly for 'testing"
how much energy was that?
3)what about all the nuclear plants, how much energy was that?
etc/etc/etc
You see what the problem is? You cannot prove my theory wrong because I know that I am right, the only thing I don't know (yet)is the percentage that energies from human activities are contributing to the warming up.
 
The thing that I am looking for is to find some data from experimental tests that would tell me how much the influence of various amounts of CO2 is on the warming up of the earth.

If somehow you don't understand or you don't want to understand the importance of that information for the future of mankind, then maybe it is you who should take a hike. 

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Offline BenV

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« Reply #41 on: 29/04/2009 22:03:25 »
You keep approaching this problem from the same angle, I can see
1) you have not done that calculation
2) actual energy reaching earth by the sun is much lower then you were claiming
3) what about all the atomic bombs that were exploded mostly for 'testing"
how much energy was that?
3)what about all the nuclear plants, how much energy was that?
etc/etc/etc
You see what the problem is? You cannot prove my theory wrong because I know that I am right, the only thing I don't know (yet)is the percentage that energies from human activities are contributing to the warming up.
 
The thing that I am looking for is to find some data from experimental tests that would tell me how much the influence of various amounts of CO2 is on the warming up of the earth.

If somehow you don't understand or you don't want to understand the importance of that information for the future of mankind, then maybe it is you who should take a hike. 
But Henry, with your idea the following applies:
1) you have not done that calculation
2) You do not know how much energy reaches the earth from the sun, and seem to ignore that fact that energy absorbed in the atmosphere contributes to the temperature of the earth
3) You do not know how much energy was supplied by "all the atomic bombs that were exploded mostly for 'testing""
3(sic))You do not know "about all the nuclear plants"etc/etc/etc

And yet you firmly believe you are right.    You have no right to make this assertation.

You also have no right to claim that people who do not have the time or inclination to spend time researching a topic for someone who
a) cannot be bothered to do their own research
b) ignore the advise of those trying to help
c) have made it quite clear that they will not accept any evidence anyway
...cannot find the data.  It's not up to dentstudent, it's up to you.

Please be advised that this sort of behaviour isn't really acceptable on this forum.

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Offline Bored chemist

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« Reply #42 on: 29/04/2009 22:31:28 »
As I said.
I have proved your theory wrong; you just didn't understand the proof.
I grant you I haven't done that calculation.
But I can show that someone else has.
There's some data about it here.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_energy
It shows that primary energy production (500EJ)is about a ten thousandth of the energy we get from the sun (4,0000,00 EJ).
You can also find data on nuclear energy on WIKI.
"As of 2005, nuclear power provided 2.1% of the world's energy"
Now you know why I ignored it.

The bombs have yields measured in kilotons or megatons. A ton of TNT produces a lot less energy than a ton of coal.
How long does it take for the world to burn a megaton of coal?
Well, looking at this
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coal
its a matter of hours. (total use is 6195.1 million tons per year 17 million tons a day.)
Unless we set off a megaton nuke every hour the energy released won't be comparable with the energy released by burning coal.
It's even less significant than nuclear power.


I do indeed see what the problem is. You don't know what you are talking about.
Unless I dig up every possible number you might ever ask for, you are not going to believe me (and even then you still might not).
That's really not my fault, it's because you don't understand the nature of science. Also, you steadfastly refuse to accept the evidence I offer and simply pretend it doesn't exist. You can't say that you just don't believe it; you need to show some sort of evidence.


"If somehow you don't understand or you don't want to understand the importance of that information for the future of mankind, then maybe it is you who should take a hike.  "
I have repeatedly shown you the information; you just cannot or will not understand it.
Please disregard all previous signatures.

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Offline Henry Pool

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« Reply #43 on: 30/04/2009 07:38:27 »
You are not going to be able to prove that my theory is wrong. Because you do not know the sum total of all energies that have gone up in the earth and sky by human activities. (think of all the rockets that have gone up in the sky, how much energy was that?)
But I think you guys keep coming at this from the wrong angle. If the CO2 has increased by 25% over the past 50 years, (adding only 70 ppms of CO2 to the atmosphere), then the first obvious question that comes to my mind is: how much does that difference make on the greenhouse effect that you say must exist? So, is there no one who looked into that question? You mean to tell me that none of the big fuel companies thought that this would become an important question related to their products?

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Offline Bored chemist

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« Reply #44 on: 30/04/2009 07:58:34 »
" (think of all the rockets that have gone up in the sky, how much energy was that?)".
The biggest of them IIRC had roughly a thrid of the energy of the Hiroshima bomb.
So again, they are not relevane.

The other question has been asked; and answered.
If you were less lazy you could look that up too.
Please disregard all previous signatures.

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Offline Henry Pool

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« Reply #45 on: 30/04/2009 08:57:15 »
I did not see the answer to my question as to how much the influence is on the greehouse effect of the various amounts of CO2....I missed it?
Perhaps we must pose this question to the fuel companies. 

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Offline dentstudent

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Why do we blame carbon dioxide for global warming?
« Reply #46 on: 30/04/2009 08:57:43 »
I think that this is another thread that isn't going to lead to anything useful. If one side of an argument resolutely refuses to listen to evidence, then it is neither scientific nor useful. Also "You are not going to be able to prove that my theory is wrong" implies that the hypothesis (not theory) is not falsifiable, and therefore falls outside of the scientific realm.

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Offline Henry Pool

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« Reply #47 on: 30/04/2009 09:07:30 »

Anyone who can think knows that if you put the kettle on, the water will get warmer. I just don't know yet how much energy caused by human activity contributes to global warming. Maybe it is not a lot. But it must be  something. How can you say that this line of thinking is not scientific?  Who knows, maybe one day we will find out that Henry's theory may have more bearing on global warming then we think. But we first need to find the data from the tests on heat retention.Did you find anything?

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Offline dentstudent

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« Reply #48 on: 30/04/2009 09:45:24 »
"But we first need to find the data from the tests on heat retention"

But YOU first need to find the data from the tests on heat retention.


"Did you find anything?"

Personally, no. Because I'm not looking for it. It's your pet. You look after it.

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Offline Henry Pool

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« Reply #49 on: 30/04/2009 13:36:28 »
Pity. There is no data relating to any specific tests or experiments.
 
Please note that when I look at a problem I always keep my mind open as to what the final solution will be to that problem. Conventional wisdom is often suspect. Sometimes the solution comes from a corner where you had never expected to find it. How is this for a theory: maybe in the time when they still thought that it was "safe" to detonate atomic bombs, as long as it was deep down below, they triggered some major upheaval in the earth's crust. This caused earth quakes (Tsunami) and now heat from the core is leaking into the oceans. What do you think of that theory?
Anyway, just speculating.

What we have to do is quite simple. We have to go to all the fuel companies. We have to say to them: look , this is your product. It has caused an increase of 70 ppm during in CO2 in the atmosphere during the past 50 years. This is our earth. Have you done any studies that relate to heat retention caused by varying amounts of CO2 in the air at differing atmospheric conditions. Perhaps they have done something on this.I doubt it. Eitherway, it is not too late. It should not be too difficult to try and devise some specific tests and experiments that give repeatable results on heat retention of various heat sources and various air compositions..       

I leave it all up to you.