Did we land on the moon?

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lyner

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Did we land on the moon?
« Reply #150 on: 26/05/2008 20:47:01 »
I hate to dampen your enthusiasm but. . . .

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Offline turnipsock

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« Reply #151 on: 26/05/2008 22:22:50 »
If you put a flag on a thin stick in a vacuum and twang it, it will oscilate a lot more than it would in an atmosphere. A twanged flag would appear to be similar to a fluttering flag in a wind.

This would be easy to demonstrate. We could send some more people to the moon and then set up a flag and twang it on camera. Or, you could set up a model flag in a vacuum along with a radio controled model of Dave Scott. Simply make the Dave Scott model brush against the flag and observe what happens.

Beeswax: Natures petrol tank sealant.

When things are in 3D, is it always the same three dimensions?

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Offline ukmicky

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« Reply #152 on: 27/05/2008 20:51:52 »
Cosmored

Ive got a theory that as the flag couldn't have moved for no reason it therefore must have moved due to something that couldn't be seen.  I therefore believe that the most reasonable explanation must be a micro meteoroid travelling at many thousands of miles an hour and so small that it couldn't be observed hitting the flag.As it past through the material it imparted some of its energy to the flag causing the flag to move . Thankfully the astronaut had just stepped forward allowing it to pass millimetres away from his leg a micro second later  [:0]  [:)]

I know the chances of one hitting the flag at the time that it was being filmed are very very very small but as millions of these things hit the moon every year as their is no real atmosphere to burn them up the event occurring is quite possible. All my evidence that the event occurred was provided by an independent source ,namely you .

If you do not believe in my theory can i ask you to prove otherwise by using only the evidence which i used which was originally supplied by you and initially used as your evidence.

« Last Edit: 27/05/2008 21:31:15 by ukmicky »

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lyner

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« Reply #153 on: 29/05/2008 00:21:14 »
Does anyone know of the actual construction of the original flag and stick?

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Offline turnipsock

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« Reply #154 on: 29/05/2008 00:33:53 »
Does anyone know of the actual construction of the original flag and stick?


That was one of my thoughts as well. Since weight at take off has to be as low as possible, it would have to be very flimsey affair.
Beeswax: Natures petrol tank sealant.

When things are in 3D, is it always the same three dimensions?

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Offline Cosmored

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« Reply #155 on: 31/05/2008 22:42:59 »
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I think the comments posted below it talking about static, or ground transmitted vibration look eminently reasonable.
The astronaut walks by the flag at other points in the clip and the flag doesn't move. 

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Why would NASA have been dumb enough to publish it if it were a threat to the conspiracy they sought to maintain?
They didn't notice it.

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Ive got a theory that as the flag couldn't have moved for no reason it therefore must have moved due to something that couldn't be seen.  I therefore believe that the most reasonable explanation must be a micro meteoroid travelling at many thousands of miles an hour and so small that it couldn't be observed hitting the flag.As it past through the material it imparted some of its energy to the flag causing the flag to move . Thankfully the astronaut had just stepped forward allowing it to pass millimetres away from his leg a micro second later   

I know the chances of one hitting the flag at the time that it was being filmed are very very very small but as millions of these things hit the moon every year as their is no real atmosphere to burn them up the event occurring is quite possible. All my evidence that the event occurred was provided by an independent source ,namely you .

If you do not believe in my theory can i ask you to prove otherwise by using only the evidence which i used which was originally supplied by you and initially used as your evidence.

There's lots of other evidence of a hoax.

Look at the way the corners of the jacket the woman astronaut is wearing move.

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=TejsnPThmd4
(first ten seconds and last 30 seconds)

It's pretty different from the way the corner of the jacket Collins is wearing moves.

http://es.youtube.com/watch?v=I_CMgqitv98

The woman astronaut is in real zero-G and Collins is probably in a plane that's diving to simulate zero-G that isn't diving quite fast enough as gravity is pulling down the corners of his jacket.

There's the issue of the size of the reflection of the sun in the astronauts' visors.
http://es.youtube.com/watch?v=sgID31UpYfA
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=rhoWabHSm_g
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=1gD2P-Po_Gk
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=EaV7QB_ReTw

There's lots more.

What Happened on the Moon" (documentary)
Part 1
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3622009579385499503

Part 2
http://video.google.es/videoplay?docid=-3186616594425246748

Was it Only a Paper Moon? (documentary)
http://www.thule.org/brains/moon.rm

Man Didn't Land on the Moon (documentary)
http://video.google.es/videoplay?docid=4135126565081757736

A Funny Thing Happened on the Way to the Moon (documentary)
http://video.google.es/videoplay?docid=-7335269088210976286

After seeing all of the other evidence of a hoax, I'd say it was a breeze caused by the astronaut's passing that made the flag move.

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Offline rosalind dna

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« Reply #156 on: 31/05/2008 22:53:39 »
it was not a hoax because for part of this Saturday evening I was
watching a Channel4 documentary programme about the Moon Landings!!

With interviews by the actual astronauts also the Russian cosmonauts and in the very first try out rocket for that, the whole crew died.
Previously the rockets went up in fireballs. All on video and wonky too.

http://www.channel4.com/science/microsites/S/shadow_moon/

http://www.channel4.com/science/microsites/S/shadow_moon/programme/programme.html
Rosalind Franklin was my first cousin and one my life's main regrets is that I never met this brilliant and beautiful lady.
She discovered the Single DNA Helix in 1953, then it was taken by Wilkins without her knowledge or agreeement.

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Offline Bored chemist

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« Reply #157 on: 01/06/2008 21:03:46 »
Cosmored,
Do you realise you are repeating yourself?
the movements of the jackets of two people, one standing still, the other running on a treadmill, are not going to be the same.
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lyner

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« Reply #158 on: 01/06/2008 21:06:05 »
Why is this thread on "New Theories"?
It's one of the OLDEST discredited theories to be found in any of the fora.

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Offline skeptic

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« Reply #159 on: 02/06/2008 20:37:08 »
   I think it's because the old one didn't fly, and everyone thinks they have the magic solution(that the rest of the world is somehow oblivious to) that will finally make it work. It's like a NEW prototype of the same OLD BS!
   
« Last Edit: 03/06/2008 02:06:48 by skeptic »
-JESOPH-

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lyner

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« Reply #160 on: 03/06/2008 09:57:59 »
I saw Elvis in Sainsbury's the other day.

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Offline Bored chemist

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« Reply #161 on: 03/06/2008 19:37:14 »
He works down the chipshop.
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Offline SFMA

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« Reply #162 on: 06/06/2008 10:26:46 »
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After seeing all of the other evidence of a hoax, I'd say it was a breeze caused by the astronaut's passing that made the flag move.

Strange. How can there be breeze when there is no air in the first place?

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lyner

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« Reply #163 on: 06/06/2008 23:10:19 »
Can you be sure how a flag would behave in a vacuum, once given a nudge?
No damping due to air. Just a vertical length of steel wire and a piece of plastic on the end. Why would it not go on waving about for minutes after it was nudged?

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Offline Cosmored

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« Reply #164 on: 11/07/2008 10:03:07 »
I haven't checked here in a while.

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Why would it not go on waving about for minutes after it was nudged?
It was shown in slow-motion. 

http://apollohoax.proboards21.com/index.cgi?board=theories&action=display&thread=1021

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the movements of the jackets of two people, one standing still, the other running on a treadmill, are not going to be the same.
This is a pretty simplistic statement.  Collins' jacket corner hangs and the corners of the woman astronaut's jacket float.

All that's necessary though is to look at the corner of Collins' jacket.  As Collins goes up, the corner of the jacket goes up too but it doesn't continue going up as it would in zero-G.  It comes back down the way it would in gravity.  There is no other identifiable force that would make it come back down.  The fabric of Collins' jacket is too loose for pressure to push the corner from the left or from above.


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lyner

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« Reply #165 on: 14/07/2008 22:53:21 »
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It was shown in slow-motion. 
You have evidence of this? What period of oscillation would you predict for a piece of plastic on the end of a very thin, 1.5m, steel wire?

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Offline Bored chemist

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« Reply #166 on: 15/07/2008 21:00:39 »
"This is a pretty simplistic statement."
Good simple is often right.
"but it doesn't continue going up as it would in zero-G. "
Is that the voice of experience or are you making it up?
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paul.fr

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« Reply #167 on: 15/07/2008 23:25:41 »
"Is that the voice of experience or are you making it up?"

Can we place bets on the possible answer to this question?

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lyner

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« Reply #168 on: 19/07/2008 19:05:52 »
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As Collins goes up, the corner of the jacket goes up too but it doesn't continue going up as it would in zero-G.  It comes back down the way it would in gravity.  There is no other identifiable force that would make it come back down.
Ever heard of wave motion? You can make a rope 'snake' up and down with 0g, 1g or 10g, with or without atmosphere. So it wouldn't be a surprise for the corners of fabric to be moving either way.

Why do you 'want', so desperately, for the Landings to have been faked?
Disregarding the quasi-Science arguments against them, is there any actual testimony from the people involved?

Could you really imagine some absolutely clinching verbal evidence not having emerged during all that elapsed time?

Can you answer the question as to how 'they' actually managed to fake it so well?

As I have said before - was there any possible way they could have arranged for the radio reception to have mimicked that of a genuine moonshot? What alternative orbit could they have had which would have given the impression of the transmissions coming from the Moon? Do you know any Newtonian Physics?

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Offline turnipsock

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« Reply #169 on: 19/07/2008 21:03:12 »

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Why would it not go on waving about for minutes after it was nudged?
It was shown in slow-motion. 


How would expect a bit of cloth to move in a vacuum if it was nudged?
Beeswax: Natures petrol tank sealant.

When things are in 3D, is it always the same three dimensions?

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lyner

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« Reply #170 on: 19/07/2008 23:55:53 »
It would probably move in the same way as a chain would in air, i.e. a situation where viscosity of Air is not relevant. It would just exhibit wave motion - damped only by the friction between the fibres.

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Offline Cosmored

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« Reply #171 on: 29/07/2008 14:49:27 »
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It was shown in slow-motion. 
You have evidence of this? What period of oscillation would you predict for a piece of plastic on the end of a very thin, 1.5m, steel wire?
I don't know how to calculate oscillation. My evidence is the difference in body movements between the earlier missions and the later missions.
 
http://apollohoax.proboards21.com/index.cgi?board=theories&action=display&thread=1021
 
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Is that the voice of experience or are you making it up?
I'm just going on Newton's first law of motion.
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newton's_laws_of_motion
 
The force of Collins' upward movement makes the corner go up but it doesn't continue going up as it would in zero-gravity.  There's no identifiable force stopping it from going up except gravity.
 
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Can you answer the question as to how 'they' actually managed to fake it so well?
That's the problem.  They didn't fake it well.  There's all kinds of evidence of its having been faked.
 
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As I have said before - was there any possible way they could have arranged for the radio reception to have mimicked that of a genuine moonshot? What alternative orbit could they have had which would have given the impression of the transmissions coming from the Moon?

According to the official story they'd landed several robot craft on the moon before the manned landings.
http://www.lpi.usra.edu/expmoon/surveyor/surveyor.html
 
If they really had that technology, it's plausible that there was a robot craft on the moon sending signals that fooled the people at Mission Control.
 
Here's some more stuff I found if anyone wants to delve further.
http://es.youtube.com/results?search_query=moonfaker&search_type=&aq=f

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lyner

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« Reply #172 on: 29/07/2008 15:37:17 »
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The force of Collins' upward movement makes the corner go up but it doesn't continue going up as it would in zero-gravity.
If you make statements like that, I'm afraid you totally disqualify yourself from airing any further opinions. HOW would there, possibly, be zero gravity on the Moon's surface? The Moon would just fall apart if there were no gravity on its surface.
1. Learn some basic Science.
2. When you know enough, start having some opinions of your own; you may be taken seriously then. Furthermore, you will be in a position to spot genuine nonsense when it is presented to you.

 Given that there are alternative views, i.e. it was faked / it wasn't faked doesn't mean that each is equally valid. A charismatic website which claims it was faked could, just possibly, be wrong. If you don't know enough to judge competently then you could, just possibly be fooled by it - just the same as you claim 'we' have all been 'fooled'. The difference is that 'we' know some Science.


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lyner

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« Reply #173 on: 29/07/2008 15:42:00 »
Quote
Quote
Is that the voice of experience or are you making it up?
I'm just going on Newton's first law of motion.
 
1. What does Newton's First Law tell you?
2. How does it apply to the situation?

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lyner

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« Reply #174 on: 29/07/2008 15:55:54 »
I have a general question about this subject.
Is it easier to fake some evidence for a UTube presentation or to fake the evidence for a Moonshot?
Who would 'believe' anything they see on Utube?

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Offline graham.d

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« Reply #175 on: 30/07/2008 13:40:49 »
I'm amazed to see this discussion go to 7 pages. Both amusing and slightly sad really.

I came across a website by a guy, claiming to be an electronics engineer, who firmly believed that the advances in the semiconductor industry must have been the result of alien technology. Having worked in the industry for 36 years I have had the benefit of seeing each new advance as being an incremental development based on knowledge at the time. Impressive growth with huge funding, but no magic. I have met some of the key players in the business and none of them had antennae on their heads. I thought of writing to the guy but I decided it would be a waste of time. There is no convincing those who "believe", whatever the evidence may suggest.

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lyner

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« Reply #176 on: 30/07/2008 23:41:21 »
We're like moths around a flame of bizarreness.
You can have similar conversations with loonies you sit next to on a bus. And they probably think the same thing too.

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Offline Cosmored

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« Reply #177 on: 31/07/2008 14:28:12 »
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HOW would there, possibly, be zero gravity on the Moon's surface? The Moon would just fall apart if there were no gravity on its surface.
That footage of Collins jogging in place was supposedly taken when they were halfway to the moon.  The official story is that Collins never went to the surface.  He was supposedly orbiting the moon while Aldrin and Armstrong were exploring the surface.

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lyner

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« Reply #178 on: 31/07/2008 15:15:28 »
Oh. I didn't get the significance of the name. In any case, if no one claimed that he went onto the Moon's surface then how is his experience relevant to conditions on the Moon?
Presumably you are prepared to acknowledge that they actually managed to get into Earth orbit, at least - so Collin's situation would have been virtually the same wherever he was. His jacket, or whatever, would have moved in the same way.
What bit of Science are you trying to use, in this context, to disprove what bit of the Moonshot? Give me a coherent argument.

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Offline Cosmored

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« Reply #179 on: 01/08/2008 09:32:21 »
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Oh. I didn't get the significance of the name. In any case, if no one claimed that he went onto the Moon's surface then how is his experience relevant to conditions on the Moon?
Presumably you are prepared to acknowledge that they actually managed to get into Earth orbit, at least - so Collin's situation would have been virtually the same wherever he was. His jacket, or whatever, would have moved in the same way.
What bit of Science are you trying to use, in this context, to disprove what bit of the Moonshot? Give me a coherent argument.
When that footage was taken, they were supposed to be halfway to the moon which would mean zero-gravity.  The jacket corner moving the way things move in gravity means they were faking those shots.  They might have been on a diving plane to simulate zero-gravity and the plane wasn't diving quite fast enough at that point.

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lyner

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« Reply #180 on: 01/08/2008 11:04:18 »
OK
Firstly you are saying that none of the faking was actually done in space. Didn't people see them taking off? Wasn't the vehicle tracked at all? What would have been the point of simulating space conditions if they were quite capable of getting the crew up there? The project certainly wasn't short of money.
Secondly, you have no idea about the construction of the jacket so you can't predict  how it should have behaved. Depending upon the construction - Rigid, springy, floppy - it could have moved in any way. I repeat my question - which bit of Science PROVES your point?
« Last Edit: 01/08/2008 11:07:31 by sophiecentaur »

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paul.fr

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« Reply #181 on: 01/08/2008 18:09:21 »
I don't know how to calculate oscillation. My evidence is the difference in body movements between the earlier missions and the later missions.

How can you base "evidence" on some moron with too much time on their hands, who has a webcam and a youtube account!

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Offline Cosmored

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« Reply #182 on: 02/08/2008 17:16:08 »
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Firstly you are saying that none of the faking was actually done in space.
I never said that.  Maybe some of it was faked in low earth orbit.  Who knows why?  That footage was obviously taken in gravity so that trumps your theory.  The truth about everything they did and how they did it will all come out later.

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Secondly, you have no idea about the construction of the jacket so you can't predict  how it should have behaved. Depending upon the construction - Rigid, springy, floppy - it could have moved in any way. I repeat my question - which bit of Science PROVES your point?
All we have to do is watch it to see it's not stiff enough to carry the pressure from the top or the back to the corner.  It bends as it moves back and forth.  It's very loose fabric.

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lyner

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« Reply #183 on: 04/08/2008 08:25:34 »
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The truth about everything they did and how they did it will all come out later.
They'd better get a move on. Most of the people involved are nearly dead!

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it's not stiff enough to carry the pressure from the top or the back to the corner
what sort of Engineer speak is that? What 'pressure'? This is basically a transverse wave you're discussing - doesn't it involve tension and torque?

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lyner

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« Reply #184 on: 04/08/2008 22:59:33 »
I looked at the movie of the woman astronaut. Is someone actually basing the whole conspiracy theory on the way her clothes, on a mission at least thirty years later, are behaving on a naff bit of movie footage?
Perhaps she had a hamster jumping about in her pocket?

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Offline Bored chemist

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« Reply #185 on: 05/08/2008 07:07:52 »
" That footage was obviously taken in gravity so that trumps your theory."
 No, it's not obvious at all.
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Offline TheHerbaholic

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« Reply #186 on: 05/08/2008 08:06:43 »
This is something I won't take sides on. The evidence for us not landing on the moon are:
The pictures where the light from the sun is shining on rocks but the shadows are going in two different directions, suggesting lights facing the astronauts but at different distances apart from eachother.
The flag waving on the moon, apparently there is no wind.
There would have been a blast crater under the pod that landed on the moon.

I get the drift most of the scientists or 'science fans' should I say, agree with the fact we went to the moon but does anybody know about a planned return to the moon?

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lyner

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« Reply #187 on: 05/08/2008 11:51:42 »
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This is something I won't take sides on.
Oh go on go on go on. Do it.
You risk being far too reasonable about a daft thread like this one.
 As for shadows and flags - there are plenty of explanations for those objections. Any good lighting engineer (and you could be sure that they would have employed the best) would have frigged the lighting properly if necessary. As the objectors have no knowledge of the construction of the flag, they can't predict how it 'should have' behaved.

Have a look at this:
http://www.redorbit.com/news/space/1487237/scientists_plan_next_moonshot/index.html
« Last Edit: 05/08/2008 11:58:29 by sophiecentaur »

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Offline graham.d

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« Reply #188 on: 05/08/2008 12:40:40 »
O no! I don't know why I'm bothering. There is a laser reflector on the moon (actually there are now five I believe) which was left by the Apollo 11 mission in 1969. Further ones were placed by Apollo 14 and 15 missions and another two by some unmanned Russian craft (only one of these is operating though). These passive devices can be detected on earth by anyone with the right equipment and the first one was used to get a lot of information about the moon's orbit in the first 25 years since it was placed there. Use is not restricted to NASA. Are the conspiracy theorist now saying that the conspiracy is an international one involving loads of Universities in the world as well as government organisations?

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lyner

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« Reply #189 on: 05/08/2008 14:02:30 »
I wish they'd stick to the Roswell Incident and Kennedy for their conspiracy fun.

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Offline Bored chemist

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« Reply #190 on: 05/08/2008 18:26:18 »
I think that before you write something like "This is something I won't take sides on. " you should look through all the posts in this thread. The "evidence" is simply missing or not actually true.

Shadows go in different directions if the ground's not flat.

Since we don't know what the flag was made of we don't know how it should react but, in low gravity and with no air resistance it wouldn't take much to set it swaying.

The blast crater may well be there but, unless you know in advance how thick the dust layer is you can't know what the crater would look like.

I'm pretty sure that somewhere in the 8 pages of stuff written about this crackpot theory (and I am taking sides here) these points have all been made. They are, of course, ignored by those who don't want to believe them.
The retroreflectors up there are a dead giveaway- there's no other possible explanation, someone must have put them there. The radio signals that came back must have come from the moon or the Russians would have had an absolute field day denouncing the US as liars.
Someone would have talked by now; given the timescale there would have been a few deathbed confessions.
The whole notion of the conspiracy is daft.
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paul.fr

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« Reply #191 on: 05/08/2008 18:28:49 »
I wish they'd stick to the Roswell Incident and Kennedy for their conspiracy fun.

Ah, but Diana is the new Kennedy...

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lyner

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« Reply #192 on: 06/08/2008 22:48:37 »
I saw the whole thing on my TV whilst sitting on a grassy knoll.

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Offline Cosmored

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« Reply #193 on: 08/08/2008 16:57:17 »
Quote
it's not stiff enough to carry the pressure from the top or the back to the corner
what sort of Engineer speak is that? What 'pressure'? This is basically a transverse wave you're discussing - doesn't it involve tension and torque?
I think what I mean is clear enough.  If I push a box with an aluminum can, the box will recieve the pressure from my body.  If I push a box with an extended piece of cloth, the cloth will fold and the box will not recieve any pressure from my body.  The fabric of Collins' jacket is obviously loose.  The looseness can be seen as he jogs in place.  I can't identify any force making the corner of his jacket come back down after it starts moving up due to his upward movement while jogging in place except for gravity.  The fabric doesn't do it.

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O no! I don't know why I'm bothering. There is a laser reflector on the moon (actually there are now five I believe) which was left by the Apollo 11 mission in 1969. Further ones were placed by Apollo 14 and 15 missions and another two by some unmanned Russian craft (only one of these is operating though). These passive devices can be detected on earth by anyone with the right equipment and the first one was used to get a lot of information about the moon's orbit in the first 25 years since it was placed there. Use is not restricted to NASA. Are the conspiracy theorist now saying that the conspiracy is an international one involving loads of Universities in the world as well as government organisations
Unmanned craft can put laser reflectors on the moon.  If the surveyor probes were real, they had the technology to do that.

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The radio signals that came back must have come from the moon or the Russians would have had an absolute field day denouncing the US
There are several plausible scenarios to explain this.  The American press might be lying.  There might have actually been an unmanned craft on the moon which was actually transmitting which would also have fooled the people at mission control.

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Someone would have talked by now; given the timescale there would have been a few deathbed confessions.
What makes you think the press would report anything like that?  The press is controlled.  We're just led to believe it's independent.

http://apollohoax.proboards21.com/index.cgi?board=othertheories&action=display&thread=1525

Someone post just one thing that he or she considers to be conclusive proof that they really went to the moon and we can talk about whether it's really proof.

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Offline graham.d

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Did we land on the moon?
« Reply #194 on: 08/08/2008 20:54:48 »
It seems to me that there is nothing you would consider as conclusive proof. You are prepared to believe the discredited opinions of a bunch of conspiracy theorists and loonies, and to also believe that numerous scientists, government organisations, university staff and the press, from very many countries over the world, are all lying. Not to mention the teams of people who actually worked on the missions at the time.

You can always fabricate obscure explanations so that whatever evidence you are presented with is insufficient for you to be convinced. On this basis you could still claim the earth was flat!

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lyner

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Did we land on the moon?
« Reply #195 on: 09/08/2008 10:03:01 »
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What makes you think the press would report anything like that?  The press is controlled.  We're just led to believe it's independent.
So how come you haven't had the heavies on YOUR doorstep stopping you from writing your nonsense?
As there are 'presses' and regimes of all colours, how come not a single reputable , foreign, agency hasn't spilled the beans?
Since the events, there have been dozens of maverick states which could have let any genuine cat out of the bag and it would have really suited them to. Wouldn't Ben Laden have loved to publish something? Why do you think he hasn't? You might consider that it is because there is nothing to publish!

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Offline DoctorBeaver

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Did we land on the moon?
« Reply #196 on: 09/08/2008 11:33:38 »
Believing the landings were faked is beyond ridiculous, and anyone stupid enough to believe it is either paranoid or delusional.

The beaver has spoken. Now stop this absurdity!
Fledgling science site at http://www.sciencefile.org/SF/content/view/54/98/ needs members and original articles. If you can help, please join.

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paul.fr

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Did we land on the moon?
« Reply #197 on: 09/08/2008 23:08:00 »
Believing the landings were faked is beyond ridiculous, and anyone stupid enough to believe it is either paranoid or delusional.

The beaver has spoken. Now stop this absurdity!

Agreed, is there a moderator around who would wish to lock this topic?

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Offline DoctorBeaver

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Did we land on the moon?
« Reply #198 on: 10/08/2008 11:06:03 »
Believing the landings were faked is beyond ridiculous, and anyone stupid enough to believe it is either paranoid or delusional.

The beaver has spoken. Now stop this absurdity!

Agreed, is there a moderator around who would wish to lock this topic?

Like buses - you can never find 1 when you want 1. You wait, 20 will turn up at once.
Fledgling science site at http://www.sciencefile.org/SF/content/view/54/98/ needs members and original articles. If you can help, please join.

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Offline Moron

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Did we land on the moon?
« Reply #199 on: 10/08/2008 16:57:54 »
Cosmored, are we related?