How can we say there is Zero G force in space what about SUN's G ?

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ScientificBoysClub

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How can we say there is Zero G force in space what about Sun's G (I mean in our solar system or above Earth )?

Ok.. General theory of relativity says about bending of space and time. If I throw a rock into space where there is no G force even the small  rock should fall  towards the Sun(what about Sun's G force it should pull the Rock? ). Does rock stays at same position or it will fall to words the sun according to General theory of relativity (due to bending of space and time )?? 

ok... planets revolve around sun (Why planets Revolve around sun why not fall towards sun?)... But the rock doesn't revolve and it should fall towards the sun ... ?

We say that Suns G force is far Grater that earth and G force of suns range should be high  !!
Than why space shuttle and others don't fall towards the Sun ?

Than why on earth Zero G force ?
« Last Edit: 26/05/2009 15:32:50 by ScientificBoysClub »

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Offline Bored chemist

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The talk of zero g refers to an objetc in free fall- since it's already following gravity, gravity doesn't have an aparent effect. Of course since gravity has an infinite range there is always a gravitational field everywhere. But if you are far enough away from things the effect is small.

Also, re
"Why planets Revolve around sun why not fall towards sun?"
They do fall towards the sun, but they keep missing; that's why they stay in orbit.
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ScientificBoysClub

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The talk of zero g refers to an objetc in free fall- since it's already following gravity, gravity doesn't have an aparent effect. Of course since gravity has an infinite range there is always a gravitational field everywhere. But if you are far enough away from things the effect is small.

Also, re
"Why planets Revolve around sun why not fall towards sun?"
They do fall towards the sun, but they keep missing; that's why they stay in orbit.

BTW do u know what I am talking about ?
It's General theory of Relativity !!

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Offline Bored chemist

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Until you learn something about gravity you would be well advised to refrain from sayig things like "BTW do u know what I am talking about ?"
or "And who told u that G force is ∞ range ? huh ?"

F= G M1 M2 /R^2
for exactly what value of R does G reach zero?
Anyone else able to solve that without setting R= infinity?
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Offline Madidus_Scientia

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The space shuttle still has pretty much the same velocity as Earth, which is why it doesn't fall into the Sun. Well actually they are still falling but as BC said, they keep missing.

Imagine swinging a ball around in a circle with an elastic string, the elastic (gravity) is always trying to pull the ball (earth) to centre (sun) but the speed of the ball and the force of the elastic are at an equilibrium where the ball will maintain its distance from the centre. If you stop the ball it will be pulled inwards by the elastic, the same would happen to the Earth or the space shuttle if you somehow removed its velocity relative to the sun.
« Last Edit: 26/05/2009 18:56:59 by Madidus_Scientia »

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ScientificBoysClub

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Until you learn something about gravity you would be well advised to refrain from sayig things like "BTW do u know what I am talking about ?"
or "And who told u that G force is ∞ range ? huh ?"

F= G M1 M2 /R^2
for exactly what value of R does G reach zero?
Anyone else able to solve that without setting R= infinity?


Ok Man just chill out !!

I didn't meant you as ignorant  ok...

I just said it because you truly didn't understand My question and others too.
And you should not use math at 100% in physics like ( 1/0 is infinity no radius and no mass can u tell me a mass with Zero radius ?).
Gravity is always limited force. and I am not talking about Newtonian  Gravity. even a kid can tell that.. and Newtonian Gravity was proved to be wrong by Albert Einstein in his " General Theory Of Relativity "

which tells about

" Force is the consequence  of Geometry "........
 
" Gravity is Due to distortion of space because of mass "

 But newton says about "Force at a distance between two objects".

Oh !! common dude I will never hurt ppl u know I just want the answers but u r posting answers like a Kid.
Ok .. man sorry if u felt bad.

Here I am talking about the  " General Theory Of Relativity " which is different from Newtons !!!!
« Last Edit: 27/05/2009 12:29:09 by ScientificBoysClub »

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ScientificBoysClub

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The space shuttle still has pretty much the same velocity as Earth, which is why it doesn't fall into the Sun. Well actually they are still falling but as BC said, they keep missing.

Imagine swinging a ball around in a circle with an elastic string, the elastic (gravity) is always trying to pull the ball (earth) to centre (sun) but the speed of the ball and the force of the elastic are at an equilibrium where the ball will maintain its distance from the centre. If you stop the ball it will be pulled inwards by the elastic, the same would happen to the Earth or the space shuttle if you somehow removed its velocity relative to the sun.

ok what will happen if it doesn't have same velocity as earth ??
why do we call zero G force ? what about suns G force ?
 

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Offline Madidus_Scientia

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If you're trying to understand something it's generally not a good idea to insult the people trying to explain it to you. BC was not posting answers like a kid. We have answered your questions, perhaps you should re-read our posts more carefully.

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ok what will happen if it doesn't have same velocity as earth ??

If what doesn't? The space shuttle? Like I already said,
Quote
If you stop the ball it will be pulled inwards by the elastic, the same would happen to the Earth or the space shuttle if you somehow removed its velocity relative to the sun.


Quote
why do we call zero G force ? what about suns G force ?

Bored Chemist already explained in his post;
Quote
The talk of zero g refers to an objetc in free fall- since it's already following gravity, gravity doesn't have an aparent effect. Of course since gravity has an infinite range there is always a gravitational field everywhere. But if you are far enough away from things the effect is small.

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Offline Ophiolite

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I didn't meant you as ignorant  ok...
I just said it because you truly didn't understand My question and others too.
I think it would be helpful if you made allowance for the fact that you are posting in what is your second or third language. Consequently your intent and meaning may not always come across clearly. Be more tolerant when people fail to understand you. (My opinion is that if someone fails to understand me it is 90% likely that I have failed to express myself clearly. Only in 10% of cases will it be the fault of the reader.)

You have made much of the fact that you are discussing Einstein's take on gravitation, not Newton. However, in terms of planetary and satellite speeds Newton's approximations work perfectly well. Certainly NASA don't make allowances for relativistic effects when they compute spacecraft trajectories.

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why do we call zero G force ?
If we are scientists we don't. We more commonly refer to the conditions experienced in Earth orbit as microgravity. Bodies in free fall are effectively weightless and this is what is meant by zero-G. I think you can see that it is a misleading term.

Quote
And you should not use math at 100% in physics like ( 1/0 is infinity no radius and no mass can u tell me a mass with Zero radius ?).
You seem to have misunderstood Bored Chemist's post. He suggested that the only way you can make the force reach zero is by setting R to infinity, not to zero. Which part of this were you having difficulty with?
Observe; collate; conjecture; analyse; hypothesise; test; validate; theorise. Repeat until complete.

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Offline Bored chemist

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The force of gavity exerted on an object near earth is not zero, but it's small.
The eath's radius is about 6,000 Km and it's distance from the sun is about 150,000,000
The earth's mass is about 6 E 24 Kg and the suns is about 3 E 30

So mass is 0.5E6 times greater but the radius is 25000 times bigger so the gravitational pull from the sun is about 1200 times less than the pull of gravity at the earth's surface.
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ScientificBoysClub

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I didn't meant you as ignorant  ok...
I just said it because you truly didn't understand My question and others too.
I think it would be helpful if you made allowance for the fact that you are posting in what is your second or third language. Consequently your intent and meaning may not always come across clearly. Be more tolerant when people fail to understand you. (My opinion is that if someone fails to understand me it is 90% likely that I have failed to express myself clearly. Only in 10% of cases will it be the fault of the reader.)

You have made much of the fact that you are discussing Einstein's take on gravitation, not Newton. However, in terms of planetary and satellite speeds Newton's approximations work perfectly well. Certainly NASA don't make allowances for relativistic effects when they compute spacecraft trajectories.

Quote
why do we call zero G force ?
If we are scientists we don't. We more commonly refer to the conditions experienced in Earth orbit as microgravity. Bodies in free fall are effectively weightless and this is what is meant by zero-G. I think you can see that it is a misleading term.

Quote
And you should not use math at 100% in physics like ( 1/0 is infinity no radius and no mass can u tell me a mass with Zero radius ?).
You seem to have misunderstood Bored Chemist's post. He suggested that the only way you can make the force reach zero is by setting R to infinity, not to zero. Which part of this were you having difficulty with?

ok i mean sun pulls every thing if there is no planet nearby .

cos space and time distorted by sun ..!!

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ScientificBoysClub

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If you're trying to understand something it's generally not a good idea to insult the people trying to explain it to you. BC was not posting answers like a kid. We have answered your questions, perhaps you should re-read our posts more carefully.

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ok what will happen if it doesn't have same velocity as earth ??

If what doesn't? The space shuttle? Like I already said,
Quote
If you stop the ball it will be pulled inwards by the elastic, the same would happen to the Earth or the space shuttle if you somehow removed its velocity relative to the sun.


Quote
why do we call zero G force ? what about suns G force ?

Bored Chemist already explained in his post;
Quote
The talk of zero g refers to an objetc in free fall- since it's already following gravity, gravity doesn't have an aparent effect. Of course since gravity has an infinite range there is always a gravitational field everywhere. But if you are far enough away from things the effect is small.

"course since gravity has an infinite range there is always a gravitational field everywhere." as BC said .

How on earth G force is infinity ?
G is weak and long range force but not infinity !?!?

Can u show me the proof ?

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ScientificBoysClub

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The force of gavity exerted on an object near earth is not zero, but it's small.
The eath's radius is about 6,000 Km and it's distance from the sun is about 150,000,000
The earth's mass is about 6 E 24 Kg and the suns is about 3 E 30

So mass is 0.5E6 times greater but the radius is 25000 times bigger so the gravitational pull from the sun is about 1200 times less than the pull of gravity at the earth's surface.
Ok .. ok.. I understood what u mean !!
but still some things about Gravity is not correct .....
There should be accurate Theory for Gravity like it should explain both way in quantum level like gravitons. and How Gravity works or generated ?   

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ScientificBoysClub

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I didn't meant you as ignorant  ok...
I just said it because you truly didn't understand My question and others too.
I think it would be helpful if you made allowance for the fact that you are posting in what is your second or third language. Consequently your intent and meaning may not always come across clearly. Be more tolerant when people fail to understand you. (My opinion is that if someone fails to understand me it is 90% likely that I have failed to express myself clearly. Only in 10% of cases will it be the fault of the reader.)

You have made much of the fact that you are discussing Einstein's take on gravitation, not Newton. However, in terms of planetary and satellite speeds Newton's approximations work perfectly well. Certainly NASA don't make allowances for relativistic effects when they compute spacecraft trajectories.

Quote
why do we call zero G force ?
If we are scientists we don't. We more commonly refer to the conditions experienced in Earth orbit as microgravity. Bodies in free fall are effectively weightless and this is what is meant by zero-G. I think you can see that it is a misleading term.

Quote
And you should not use math at 100% in physics like ( 1/0 is infinity no radius and no mass can u tell me a mass with Zero radius ?).
You seem to have misunderstood Bored Chemist's post. He suggested that the only way you can make the force reach zero is by setting R to infinity, not to zero. Which part of this were you having difficulty with?
lol my second language is Hindi and Third is English !!

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Offline Bored chemist

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Just because you don't like the idea of gravity having an infinite range doesn't mean it's not true.
What else could happen? What would stop it at some finite range?



Also, if English isn't your first language then perhaps you should avoid "text speak".
Please disregard all previous signatures.

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ScientificBoysClub

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Just because you don't like the idea of gravity having an infinite range doesn't mean it's not true.
What else could happen? What would stop it at some finite range?



Also, if English isn't your first language then perhaps you should avoid "text speak".
who told u that I don't like the Idea of gravity ? I just want it to be more detailed mixed with Quantum mechanics. so, that we can Unify String theory !!   

In fact when I was talking about Gravitons and space and time I thought u must have understood what I meant to say. I want gravitational theory to be unified with quantum mechanics. ( and I mean it )


I don't get it..!!  How can G Force range is Infinity ? it is well  known fact that it's limited range.

What the heck ? why should I give up speaking English or text speak .. Ok !! I might make some mistakes but I will always correct it . But I will never Give up !! hahahahha....

Why should I avoid ?? you avoid me if you r feeling that I am boring you with my " boring English speak text " perhaps u need to give up  answering to my questions ?? 

Well the present knowledge of Gravity is really worthy knowledge . I mean it but is still it's incomplete . It does not explain

How G force works ?
why G force is constant weak force ?
what is actually gravity ? ( we just know it pulls why ? )
we can't even unify this theory into string theory ? ( cos it doesn't satisfy with Quantum world only inside the Black hole it does !!)   

Why do u say I don't like it ? ( I love it . cos Physics Girl friend(and math too ) and I don't have any friends haha )
I just want to improve more understanding.
Understanding Nature is really cool !! ... and I am dedicated to it . .... and I will not stop or avoid any thing as u said .
« Last Edit: 28/05/2009 16:29:05 by ScientificBoysClub »

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ScientificBoysClub

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Just because you don't like the idea of gravity having an infinite range doesn't mean it's not true.
What else could happen? What would stop it at some finite range?



Also, if English isn't your first language then perhaps you should avoid "text speak".

You r bored with chemistry and also with Physics too !! lol just kidding ..
« Last Edit: 28/05/2009 16:19:14 by ScientificBoysClub »

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ScientificBoysClub

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Just because you don't like the idea of gravity having an infinite range doesn't mean it's not true.
What else could happen? What would stop it at some finite range?



Also, if English isn't your first language then perhaps you should avoid "text speak".

Do you mean to say that Suns G force is infinity ?
G force exist as long as mass exist...

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Offline BenV

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I don't get it..!!  How can G Force range is Infinity ? it is well  known fact that it's limited range.

It's not a well known fact, as it's not well known and it's not a fact.  Did you notice that Bored Chemist gave the equation earlier?

F= G M1 M2 /R^2

This means that there's an inverse square relationship, and unless you are an infinite distance apart, the attraction will always be greater than 0.

That is a well known fact.

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ScientificBoysClub

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I don't get it..!!  How can G Force range is Infinity ? it is well  known fact that it's limited range.

It's not a well known fact, as it's not well known and it's not a fact.  Did you notice that Bored Chemist gave the equation earlier?

F= G M1 M2 /R^2

This means that there's an inverse square relationship, and unless you are an infinite distance apart, the attraction will always be greater than 0.



That is a well known fact.
wait a second ..... Than General relativity says that distortion of space and time is limited !!
so, How do u support that ?

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ScientificBoysClub

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I don't get it..!!  How can G Force range is Infinity ? it is well  known fact that it's limited range.

It's not a well known fact, as it's not well known and it's not a fact.  Did you notice that Bored Chemist gave the equation earlier?

F= G M1 M2 /R^2

This means that there's an inverse square relationship, and unless you are an infinite distance apart, the attraction will always be greater than 0.

That is a well known fact.
it must be theoretically very true but what about in reality ?
any example ?

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ScientificBoysClub

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I don't get it..!!  How can G Force range is Infinity ? it is well  known fact that it's limited range.

It's not a well known fact, as it's not well known and it's not a fact.  Did you notice that Bored Chemist gave the equation earlier?

F= G M1 M2 /R^2

This means that there's an inverse square relationship, and unless you are an infinite distance apart, the attraction will always be greater than 0.

That is a well known fact.
i can see the inverse relation R^2
but we generally say that taking infinity is meaning less .....?? like we say 1/infinity is undefined ?

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ScientificBoysClub

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about
I don't get it..!!  How can G Force range is Infinity ? it is well  known fact that it's limited range.

It's not a well known fact, as it's not well known and it's not a fact.  Did you notice that Bored Chemist gave the equation earlier?

F= G M1 M2 /R^2

This means that there's an inverse square relationship, and unless you are an infinite distance apart, the attraction will always be greater than 0.

That is a well known fact.
BenV

I admit it that I was wrong about limited range but i was telling you in terms of General theory of relativity .... it is limited .. am i wrong ?
Why on earth all answers r being posted in terms of Newtons Universal law of G ?

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ScientificBoysClub

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I don't get it..!!  How can G Force range is Infinity ? it is well  known fact that it's limited range.

It's not a well known fact, as it's not well known and it's not a fact.  Did you notice that Bored Chemist gave the equation earlier?

F= G M1 M2 /R^2

This means that there's an inverse square relationship, and unless you are an infinite distance apart, the attraction will always be greater than 0.

That is a well known fact.
do you know the range of electromagnetic force is Infinity ? tooo why ?  Oh ! cos its light ......
ok light can be infinity range .
« Last Edit: 28/05/2009 17:00:58 by ScientificBoysClub »

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ScientificBoysClub

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The talk of zero g refers to an objetc in free fall- since it's already following gravity, gravity doesn't have an aparent effect. Of course since gravity has an infinite range there is always a gravitational field everywhere. But if you are far enough away from things the effect is small.

Also, re
"Why planets Revolve around sun why not fall towards sun?"
They do fall towards the sun, but they keep missing; that's why they stay in orbit.
Just because you don't like the idea of gravity having an infinite range doesn't mean it's not true.
What else could happen? What would stop it at some finite range?



Also, if English isn't your first language then perhaps you should avoid "text speak".


Ok BC I am sorry . it was my fault that My whole focus was on General theory of Relativity . which is bending of space and time is limited so I thought Gravity would be limited but It is limited according to this theory!!

thanks for teaching me whole thing which is new to me ... i.e,. G force range in infinity.

Ok.. I am taking all my words back. sorry and thanks !! But think about the theory above !!

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Offline Bored chemist

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I don't get it..!!  How can G Force range is Infinity ? it is well  known fact that it's limited range.

It's not a well known fact, as it's not well known and it's not a fact.  Did you notice that Bored Chemist gave the equation earlier?

F= G M1 M2 /R^2

This means that there's an inverse square relationship, and unless you are an infinite distance apart, the attraction will always be greater than 0.

That is a well known fact.
BenV

I admit it that I was wrong about limited range but i was telling you in terms of General theory of relativity .... it is limited .. am i wrong ?
Why on earth all answers r being posted in terms of Newtons Universal law of G ?

Well, for a start, yes, you are wrong; the range is infinite.
Also there's no difference between Newton's and Einstien's laws as far as the range is concerned.
In one case there's a force with infinite range. In the other case space is warped over an infinite distance.
It's a hell of a lot easier to do the maths in Newton's version and the answers come out the same.

 (At least for the case of the sun, space shuttle and the earth. Black holes etc are another issue as are the "speed" of gravity and the effect of gracvity waves)
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Offline Madidus_Scientia

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also, did you know that you can edit a post if you want to add to it, instead of posting repeatedly

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Offline Bored chemist

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If he's not going to heed the laws of physics I can't see hem troubling with the rules of the forum.
Please disregard all previous signatures.

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lyner

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SBC
Having just read this thread for the first time, it is clear that you have piled in with both feet and you may not have stated, in the first place, what you actually wanted to know or the point you were trying to make.
If you were just arguing about the classical view then you were out of step with everyone else and can't really expect to be taken seriously. Once you have established some credibility about your classical knowledge then you are in a better position to have your views on the more advanced stuff listened to.
As the classical view is based on an infinite, stable universe, it is not surprising that it runs out of steam in a finite / expanding universe. Beyond it, though, we are still in the realms of speculation.

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ScientificBoyZClub

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I still did not understand this

what about sun's G force ?

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Offline BenV

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What about it? Specifically, what is your question?

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ScientificBoyZClub

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What about it? Specifically, what is your question?
Sir,
If sun is present in space.
and why astronauts don't feel sun's attraction ?

as our planet Earth and other should feel..

I have a proof that "General theory of relativity" wins ...AGAIN
but sir.Isaac newton got wrong ... at a point.
and what is the proof that G Range is infinity ?

we can do lots of tricks in math as you explained me.
but not possible in real.

General relativity does not say G as infinity range.

I am not agreeing with infinity range statement.