What are neutrinos and what do they do?

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Offline anerratic

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What are neutrinos and what do they do?
« on: 24/08/2009 00:40:50 »
Hi everyone,

I was wondering what nuclear reactions neutrinos take part in and why. I know their properties, and a few of their sources, but i do not understand their role in some reactions such as beta decay. why are they needed?

Thanks,

anerratic.

[MOD EDIT - PLEASE PHRASE THREAD TITLES AS QUESTIONS, IN LINE WITH FORUM POLICY]
« Last Edit: 25/08/2009 10:18:52 by chris »

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Offline Nizzle

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Re: What are neutrinos and what do they do?
« Reply #1 on: 24/08/2009 10:48:11 »
They are needed to preserve conservation of energy, conservation of momentum, and conservation of angular momentum in beta decay
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Offline syhprum

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Re: What are neutrinos and what do they do?
« Reply #2 on: 25/08/2009 06:44:25 »
Just a communication test!
syhprum

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Offline Nizzle

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Re: What are neutrinos and what do they do?
« Reply #3 on: 25/08/2009 07:16:26 »
it worked,

i can read your post [::)]
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Offline Vern

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What are neutrinos and what do they do?
« Reply #4 on: 25/08/2009 16:12:21 »
There is an interesting thing about the neutrino. It is the only particle suspected to exist that can not be annihilated to become photons. All other particles can be theoretically constructed by trapping photons in localized patterns.

Edit: I could change that to say if the neutrino is real, it is the only physical reality that can not be so reduced. So the neutrino nullifies a widely held belief of the early 20th century. I still suspect that old belief may in fact be the reality. It is "The final irreducible constituent of all physical reality is the electromagnetic field."
« Last Edit: 25/08/2009 16:22:58 by Vern »

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Offline Lars Larsen

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What are neutrinos and what do they do?
« Reply #5 on: 26/08/2009 22:23:58 »
So the neutrino nullifies a widely held belief of the early 20th century. I still suspect that old belief may in fact be the reality. It is "The final irreducible constituent of all physical reality is the electromagnetic field."

What about gravitation?

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Offline Vern

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What are neutrinos and what do they do?
« Reply #6 on: 27/08/2009 12:00:24 »
Gravitation is no problem for a speculative soul. It is photon attraction for other photons. Everyone knows photons attract each other gravitationally.  However, most folks then seak some other source for gravitation in general. There is no need for some other source. If the final irreducible constituent of all physical reality is the electromagnetic field, photon-photon attraction would account for gravity.

The exact mechanism for photon-photon attraction is not known. But I suspect it is that photons exist as saturated points within fields of electric and magnetic force. The fields contribute toward the saturation amplitude, so photons must then migrate toward increasing amplitude of the fields.

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Offline Lars Larsen

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« Reply #7 on: 27/08/2009 15:51:30 »
Gravitation is no problem for a speculative soul. It is photon attraction for other photons. Everyone knows photons attract each other gravitationally.  However, most folks then seak some other source for gravitation in general. There is no need for some other source. If the final irreducible constituent of all physical reality is the electromagnetic field, photon-photon attraction would account for gravity.

The exact mechanism for photon-photon attraction is not known. But I suspect it is that photons exist as saturated points within fields of electric and magnetic force. The fields contribute toward the saturation amplitude, so photons must then migrate toward increasing amplitude of the fields.

Jesus Christ, that blows my mind. That's exactly what Einstein and all the other guys were looking for all the time! GUT, TOE and so on. Put some math to it, dude, and the Nobel prize goes to... ;)

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Offline Vern

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What are neutrinos and what do they do?
« Reply #8 on: 27/08/2009 17:12:32 »
It's not much more than a hunch, but I suspect that there is a way to get to a GUT and TOE by considering everything in terms of the electromagnetic field. I compiled a list of evidence in support of that idea, but there is not enough interest among physicists for the idea to catch on.

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lyner

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What are neutrinos and what do they do?
« Reply #9 on: 27/08/2009 20:20:57 »
Vern
I took a look at your list in that link.
NO.17 caught my eye.
How do you relate the De Broglie wavelength displayed by a moving electron, when it is diffracted to an electromagnetic wavelength and a frequency of the photon you are postulating?

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Offline DoctorBeaver

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What are neutrinos and what do they do?
« Reply #10 on: 28/08/2009 11:59:16 »
Gravitation is no problem for a speculative soul. It is photon attraction for other photons. Everyone knows photons attract each other gravitationally.  However, most folks then seak some other source for gravitation in general. There is no need for some other source. If the final irreducible constituent of all physical reality is the electromagnetic field, photon-photon attraction would account for gravity.

The exact mechanism for photon-photon attraction is not known. But I suspect it is that photons exist as saturated points within fields of electric and magnetic force. The fields contribute toward the saturation amplitude, so photons must then migrate toward increasing amplitude of the fields.

*brain explodes

Can you explain what you mean by saturated points? Are they points where the effect of the field is "stronger" (I may have used the wrong word there)? If the EM force is mitigated by photons and you say that photons are saturated points in the EM field, isn't that going round in circles?

I get very confused by fields so I'm probably trying to think in totally the wrong direction.

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Offline Vern

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What are neutrinos and what do they do?
« Reply #11 on: 28/08/2009 12:12:48 »
Quote from: sophiecentaur
How do you relate the De Broglie wavelength displayed by a moving electron, when it is diffracted to an electromagnetic wavelength and a frequency of the photon you are postulating?
I don't know how the De Broglie wavelength would compare to the calculated wavelength of an electron's photon. The calculated wavelength would be that of a photon with energy equivalent to an electron's mass. There would be lots of dynamics going on.

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Offline Vern

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What are neutrinos and what do they do?
« Reply #12 on: 28/08/2009 12:21:07 »
Quote from: DoctorBeaver
Can you explain what you mean by saturated points? Are they points where the effect of the field is "stronger" (I may have used the wrong word there)? If the EM force is mitigated by photons and you say that photons are saturated points in the EM field, isn't that going round in circles?
Consider the photon as consisting only of electromagnetic fields. Those planes radiating out from the photon's path are the fields. There are two points of maxima of the fields. These two points are at the centres of each half cycle of the photon wave. The points consist of the same stuff as the fields, but at a saturated amplitude. That saturated amplitude is the same in every photon. It is the maximum amplitude that space can support.

The point was that you can't make one of these from a neutrino. Every physical reality other than the neutrino can be reduced to photons.


« Last Edit: 28/08/2009 12:36:00 by Vern »

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lyner

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What are neutrinos and what do they do?
« Reply #13 on: 28/08/2009 13:33:12 »
Quote from: sophiecentaur
How do you relate the De Broglie wavelength displayed by a moving electron, when it is diffracted to an electromagnetic wavelength and a frequency of the photon you are postulating?
I don't know how the De Broglie wavelength would compare to the calculated wavelength of an electron's photon. The calculated wavelength would be that of a photon with energy equivalent to an electron's mass. There would be lots of dynamics going on.
The De Broglie  wavelength, which is what relates to electron diffraction, is a function of the momentum of the electron - not the mass. I think this may be a problem for you.

Also, your picture of a photon. You understand that a single cycle of a sine wave as you have drawn, involves an infinite number of  harmonics. How does that square with reality? You could expect, if that model of a photon applied, then photon interactions with charge systems and diffraction patterns might be expected to be very different. If you want to draw a picture of a photon I think you are trying to grab a wet bar of soap in a deep bath.

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Offline Vern

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What are neutrinos and what do they do?
« Reply #14 on: 28/08/2009 14:15:49 »
Quote from: sophiecentaur
The De Broglie  wavelength, which is what relates to electron diffraction, is a function of the momentum of the electron - not the mass. I think this may be a problem for you.
Yes; I know. That's one reason I never tried to compare this electron construct to De Broglie wavelength. I couldn't get my head around the dynamics enough to calculate a diffraction pattern.

And I know that an electromagnetic sine wave involves an infinite number of harmonics. It is just the nature of the beast, but I don't think that precludes an electromagnetic construct for mass. I know that it is very remote that I may have guessed the correct mechanisms for that construct of mass, but the numbers for the strong forces match up.

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Offline Nizzle

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What are neutrinos and what do they do?
« Reply #15 on: 28/08/2009 14:41:02 »
Everyone knows photons attract each other gravitationally.

I feel left out here.. [:(]

How does a photon with 0 mass attract stuff? Especially heavier particles?
And if you're talking exclusively of photons attracting other photons, isn't it magnetic attraction rather than gravitational attraction?
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Offline Vern

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What are neutrinos and what do they do?
« Reply #16 on: 28/08/2009 14:47:40 »
No; photons attract each other gravitationally. I didn't just make that up.[:)] This is true in classical theory and in QM theory.

Edit: I don't remember exactly why, but I think this has to be so for some of the maths to work. I don't know of an experiment that would detect it.
« Last Edit: 28/08/2009 14:57:11 by Vern »

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Offline Nizzle

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What are neutrinos and what do they do?
« Reply #17 on: 28/08/2009 14:49:07 »
So mass is not a requirement for gravity?
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Offline Farsight

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What are neutrinos and what do they do?
« Reply #18 on: 28/08/2009 14:59:21 »
I think the dynamics is pretty simple Vern. Take a 511keV photon, wrap it in a double loop, and it traps itself. Check out John G Williamson's and Martin van der Mark's papers at http://www.cybsoc.org/cybcon2008prog.htm#jw. They're a little like you. They were formerly at CERN, they wrote a paper in 1991, and it took them siz six years to get it into a journal that few have heard of. That journal was Annales de la Fondation Louis de Broglie. See volume 22, no.2, 133 (1997). It's been "studiously ignored" ever since. John is doing a talk in London on the 12th September.



Nizzle: energy causes gravity. Mass causes gravity because of the energy content.
« Last Edit: 28/08/2009 15:51:44 by Farsight »

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Offline Vern

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What are neutrinos and what do they do?
« Reply #19 on: 28/08/2009 15:00:30 »
Quote
So mass is not a requirement for gravity?

Well, that depends on how you want to think of a photon. We say a photon has no mass. But we know that photons attract gravitationally. So in that sense, mass is not a requirement. But if you consider photons as a system, they are massive.

Edit: For example, photons trapped in a mirrored box add mass to the photon-box system.
« Last Edit: 28/08/2009 15:34:01 by Vern »

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Offline Vern

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« Reply #20 on: 28/08/2009 15:05:12 »
Quote
I think the dynamics is pretty simple Vern. Take a 511keV photon, wrap it in a double loop, and it traps itself. Check out John G Williamson's and Martin van der Mark's papers at http://www.cybsoc.org/cybcon2008prog.htm#jw.
Thanks Farsight; I'll check it out.

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Offline Farsight

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What are neutrinos and what do they do?
« Reply #21 on: 28/08/2009 15:44:02 »
Looking at the original post, whilst the neutrino is considered to be a lepton, it's doesn't hang around, and it doesn't have much in the way of mass. Hence it's arguably more like a photon than an electron. It doesn't have a "role" per se in Beta decay. A neutron is unstable outside the nucleus, and will undergo Beta-minus decay in about fifteen minutes, turning into a proton, an electron, and an antineutrino. The antineutrino flies off. It doesn't have many properties. It conveys energy, and whilst it has no charge and the mass is debateable, it does have a helicity or spin. IMHO the best way to conceptualize it is as a rolling wave or running loop. Take a look at Vern's image above of a photon, and relate it to this wave in a bullwhip:

   

It isn't quite like that, because a wave in three dimensional space wherein energy = pressure x volume has to be more like a pressure-pulse, where the sinusoidal waveform is giving you the slope. But nevermind the detail there. The moot point is that the neutrino is more like this:



Crack the whip and the running loop travels up its length. If the loop was running the other way, it would be an antineutrino. See http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/HBASE/Particles/neutrino3.html for a little more on this.

Note that the photon "has no mass" because it's travelling at c. Trap it inside a mirrored box and the system that is the box+photon is now more massive. Here the photon is still moving at c, but not in aggregate with respect to you. If a neutrino travels at c, it has no mass, because mass is a measure of the amount of energy that is not moving at c with respect to you. Hence if the neutrino travels at less than c, it has some mass. If for some reason its speed varies, its mass will vary too. If this does happen, the loop will have to tighten or become multiple loops, which gives quite a nice picture of neutrino oscillation.   
« Last Edit: 28/08/2009 15:47:11 by Farsight »

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Offline Vern

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What are neutrinos and what do they do?
« Reply #22 on: 29/08/2009 00:59:43 »
Are you thinking that the speed of the neutrino may vary and that may cause it to oscillate through types of neutrinos?

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Offline Farsight

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« Reply #23 on: 29/08/2009 14:20:30 »
Yep.

Of course, it can seem a little more complicated, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neutrino_oscillation. But the key thing that they don't understand is the relative-motion symmetry between momentum and inertia. A photon "has no mass", but stop it moving at c by trapping it in a mirrored box, or use pair production to make it go round and round as an electron, and the energy/momentum is now exhibited as mass. Mass is just a measure of how much energy is not moving in aggregate with respect to you. Search The Trouble with Physics for "motionless" and take a look at the first paragraph on page 105: http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/reader/0141018356/ref=sib_vae_pg_105?ie=UTF8&keywords=motionless&p=S03N&twc=1&checkSum=cooQ%2Fqrry7NOMqep1awyTB6xeoXmJb4XYbCGZt8qv3o%3D#reader-page . Then look at the neutrino oscillation wiki article and note this:

"Eigenstates with different masses propagate at different speeds. The heavier ones lag behind while the lighter ones pull ahead".

That's back to front. If you've got something going past you at c there's no mass. Make it travel at an aggregate of 0 km/s and it's all mass. And it's a sliding scale in between. Something concertinaing along will have a variable mass because the velocity varies. When it slows down the mass increases. When it speeds up the mass decreases. All simple stuff once it clicks.   

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Offline Vern

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« Reply #24 on: 29/08/2009 17:24:36 »
Quote from: Farsight
When it slows down the mass increases. When it speeds up the mass decreases. All simple stuff once it clicks.
It is difficult for this to click for me. Momentum is velocity times mass. I suppose if you did the exchange just right momentum would still be conserved and give some validity to it.

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Offline Farsight

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« Reply #25 on: 29/08/2009 17:49:44 »
It isn't, Vern. A photon has momentum p=hf/c, but it has no mass. The difference between momentum and inertia depends on who you say is moving, and in relativity, you can't really say. Here, take a look at Compton scattering:


http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/quantum/comptint.html

The photon delivers a "kick" that sends the target electron flying off at an angle. Now repeat the collision but imagine the photon isn't moving at c. Instead of receiving a kick, the electron would bounce off it, and the momentum now looks like inertia. Put your massless photon in mirrored box and the mass of the box+photon system is increased. Ditto if you use pair production to make a photon "go nowhere fast" as an electron or positron. It's really simple, and it goes back to Einstein's 1905 paper DOES THE INERTIA OF A BODY DEPEND UPON ITS ENERGY-CONTENT? which you can find here: http://wien.cs.jhu.edu/AnnusMirabilis/index.html#common

 

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Offline Vern

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« Reply #26 on: 29/08/2009 22:01:12 »
Quote from: Farsight
Ditto if you use pair production to make a photon "go nowhere fast" as an electron or positron.
I think we are in agreement on the formation of an electron and positron. But I don't see the need for a torus twist. I can see that a simple circle can connect front to back in a photon of the right frequency and that resonance would help trap it there. Additional positive feedback is needed as well. This can come from the electrical charge that comes from the bend in the photon's path.

Is there some reason that the confined photons need to go through a torus twist? I can think of an electric and magnetic effect where the bend may happen half way between the two planes, but I know of no principal that would demand it. Maybe it is that both the electric and magnetic planes must be in resonance. I'll have to look at that more.

« Last Edit: 29/08/2009 22:08:37 by Vern »

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Offline Farsight

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« Reply #27 on: 30/08/2009 09:18:28 »
It goes back to Minkowski's wrench, Vern. It's geometry. The right-hand rule is telling us the electromagnetic field is like a reamer. It's got a twist to it. Grip the reamer in your right hand and push up with your thumb. It turns. Hence electric motors and dynamos. 



You know how LIGO is looking for gravitational waves? See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravitational_wave. There's a change in distance. A photon is the same, only the distance is 3.86 x 10-13m. The electric field is a "twist" field, move through it and you'd experience a "turn" field, a magnetic field. It's just two different ways of looking at the same thing. To make an electron, you have to deflect the photon to make it travel through itself. There's nothing to brace against, so you have to make a positron too. Get it right and the photon keeps on travelling through itself. The twist makes it turn, and the turn makes it twist. It grips itself.



The positron is like the above reflected in a mirror. It has the opposite chirality. The opposite twist.

« Last Edit: 30/08/2009 09:23:35 by Farsight »

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Offline Vern

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What are neutrinos and what do they do?
« Reply #28 on: 30/08/2009 12:46:30 »
I can visualize the concept you illustrate and it looks plausible but I don't see the forces making the twist. An electric field must develop from the mechanics of the pattern. If the same field of the photon can occupy the outside of the pattern all the way through, this would happen. However, I don't see the polarities worked out in the twist.