An essay in futility, too long to read :)

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Offline yor_on

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Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #1650 on: 19/02/2016 21:03:00 »
Or a animal?
Nothing wrong with that, but it's not a human.
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Offline the5thforce

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Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #1651 on: 19/02/2016 21:06:55 »
looks like youre lost in the contradiction loops... something from nothing ≠ something for nothing

just remember, we exist inside a near-zero sum game, all good is near-equally bad and you could not know positive potential without living in equally negative reality




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Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #1652 on: 19/02/2016 21:07:13 »
Right and wrong either exist, or it is a ideal.
Myself I think it exist.

What do you think?
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Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #1653 on: 19/02/2016 21:08:46 »
You don't make sense, supposedly you do talk good though :)
I don't care, this life makes as much sense as you give it.
And you don't, do you?
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Offline the5thforce

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Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #1654 on: 19/02/2016 21:09:02 »
empathy is ideal, regardless of right or wrong.

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Offline yor_on

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Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #1655 on: 19/02/2016 21:10:55 »

troll?
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Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #1656 on: 19/02/2016 21:13:37 »
And a fast shot into :) whatever this is :)
It's cool, though.

Letting me write like this has been weird :)
So welcome to the game of life.
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Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #1657 on: 19/02/2016 21:14:54 »
You're born, and then, you die.
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Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #1658 on: 19/02/2016 21:17:21 »
And if I get you right?
Empathy has nothing to do with it?
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Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #1659 on: 19/02/2016 21:18:34 »
Think I need a single malt while I ponder that one..
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Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #1660 on: 19/02/2016 21:23:34 »

heh, kind of love the ones that know :)
I love not knowing, just trusting our potential.
It's like this universe, limited only by yourself.
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Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #1661 on: 19/02/2016 21:34:12 »
You could express it as if you would like the world to be flat, just choose your friends, carefully :)
Everything is open to doubt, still, logic works, and we use it.

It is what gave us laptops, and central heating.
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Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #1662 on: 19/02/2016 21:35:55 »
Also, it gave us ethics.
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Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #1663 on: 19/02/2016 21:40:52 »
Ethics is a logic. Treating Earth as our life.
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Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #1664 on: 19/02/2016 21:48:14 »
It's also GR and SR.
Which builds on 'c'.
You really need to look into 'c'.
It is a logic, that works.

Although we don't really know why.
But at least we prove it fitting.
And yeah, it fits everything. We're defined by 'c', as far as I can see.

« Last Edit: 19/02/2016 21:51:40 by yor_on »
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Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #1665 on: 19/02/2016 21:50:37 »
Get 'c' away, and we won't be.
And if now 'time' is a 'illusion' ?
What about 'c'.

It builds on a clock, and a ruler.
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Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #1666 on: 19/02/2016 21:53:52 »
It's simple actually. 'c' is your local clock, accepting that, your life span won't change. But it does not tell us why 'c' is.
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Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #1667 on: 19/02/2016 21:57:35 »
the ruler give you the distance, the clock tells you the 'time' passed for the light 'propagating' between the mirrors. Then split that distance, infinitesimally. Each part will become more distinct until me meet HUP.
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Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #1668 on: 19/02/2016 21:59:04 »
Until HUP, your local 'time' will be definable. And you won't get a better clock anywhere.
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Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #1669 on: 19/02/2016 22:00:51 »
'C' is the universe.
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Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #1670 on: 19/02/2016 22:01:33 »
And:)
It's local.

Which gives me a headache.
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Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #1671 on: 19/02/2016 22:10:33 »
Either you like it to be possible to split 'time' into even chunks, as by a clock. Or you think of it as a form of a 'entropy'. Entropy makes a worse description of your life span than a clock does though. I'll go with 'c' and a wristwatch myself.
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Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #1672 on: 19/02/2016 22:19:04 »
Never think that using the correct symbols prove a wrong formulation. It's like a quantum computer, the trick isn't int constructing it, it is in constructing the correct questions.
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Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #1673 on: 19/02/2016 22:28:17 »
Yeah I know, better avoid that lovely malt. Then again, I'll be dead soon, then it will be up to you writing. Some questions seems timeless, as honor, and love.
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Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #1674 on: 19/02/2016 22:35:15 »
If one use points to define a accelerating expansion then you get a acceleration. If you then use a definition in where a 'infinite' universe also gains points at all 'places simultaneously', giving no priority to any localization, you also redefine dark matter.
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Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #1675 on: 19/02/2016 22:36:57 »
dark matter is needed when something 'attracts'
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Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #1676 on: 20/02/2016 11:37:48 »
A simple description of my current confusion would be the idea of a two mirror experiment, valid at all locations in a universe, giving you the same exact result of a 'speed', namely 'c'. No matter your own relative speed versus all other heavenly bodies. If you would like to stand at the side where one expect 'clocks' to change due to 'gravitational potentials'  as shown by example NIST, then define the clock as I do, you also will redefine 'c', it becomes just as much a variable as the clock then should be. If you on the other tentacle find my arguments equalizing a clock to 'c' (your local arrow as it becomes) acceptable, also still define 'c' as a constant? And as all experiments we have tells us that it is a constant? I definitely define it as a constant myself. What do we have? A speed that ignore gravitational time dilation? You could argue that the differences are so small as to be negligible though, impossible to measure.

Or you could argue that as 'c' also is the 'clock' (according to my definitions) it becomes impossible to measure (meaning that no matter where you place yourself as the observer of that speed, 'c' equalize the clock). This question also points to the importance of defining exactly what one might mean by naming something a 'constant'. Added to this question is the fact of that different relative motions measuring their local clock versus some other, commonly agreed on, object/clock, all will define it (the far away clock) differently. The last one introduce a parameter called relative motion which, although it may or may not be equivalent to not moving at all, indeed is a 'motion', as can be easily proven.

=
Had to clean my sentences up.
« Last Edit: 20/02/2016 18:37:51 by yor_on »
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Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #1677 on: 20/02/2016 11:41:21 »
A simple solution to it is to embrace locality. Doing so your local measurement is your truth, and reality. Us agreeing on our local experiments give us 'constants'. But what about the global representation, the 'whole universe' we see, if one do so?
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Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #1678 on: 20/02/2016 11:51:31 »
To me it seems obvious that this global representation doesn't tell us all of how this 'common universe' exist, if I accept the above. And if the universe in some terms is a 'illusion', then propagation (of light) also becomes questionable. And if you think it follows that also uniform, as well as accelerated, motion should fall into such a category I would agree. It doesn't make what we experience less real, but there must be something more to it
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Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #1679 on: 20/02/2016 11:55:52 »
From that one can (slightly more easily :) accept the idea of a accelerating expansion of our universe, as well as me defining it to happen equally in all 'points' of that same universe. And it all hinges on local 'constants', being found to give you a same answer, no matter where or when.
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Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #1680 on: 20/02/2016 18:45:45 »
The point with using a two mirror experiment as becoming confusing is that it covers a distance. If you then go by NIST there should be different 'clock rates' light pass, propagating over that distance. And it doesn't really matter how you look at it. Different clock rates over a 'globally done' experiment should make you confused if you think it through :) even disregarding my views on it. It's clocks that we use, and the one we use is local, but light measured this way becomes hard to define as local, doesn't it? It's the dichotomy between looking at this experiment strictly locally, at the same time one has to admit the experiments global definition.
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Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #1681 on: 20/02/2016 18:57:36 »
As long as we agree on that it shouldn't matter what sort of relative motion me and my two mirror experiment are in, for 'c' always being 'c'? You also will find that relative motion change the 'clock rates' you measure your local one against. Different speeds (uniform motions) should, as far as I can see, give you different clock rates. Where do you place that difference? Locally? Globally? What we can see is that it is a relation though, you need your wristwatch as well as the one you measure against. And you need relative motion, the word 'relative' also tell us that this is about relations. But your 'local life span' won't change, not according to yourself at least. The seconds won't become 'longer' due to a speed. The same argument should hold locally for a acceleration too.
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Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #1682 on: 20/02/2016 19:04:16 »
Against those arguments we have a fact. 'c' is always measured to be 'c', never mind ' gravitational time dilation's ' or 'relative motions'.
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Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #1683 on: 20/02/2016 19:18:31 »
presuming a accelerating expansion to have a same value no matter where one look for it, you can place it locally, as it being created equally in every 'point of existence'. What becomes a acceleration should then be those points, 'stringed together' over a distance, measured between two heavenly bodies. As they add up you should see a acceleration. The weakness in it :) is that different distances then should present you with different speeds, as the longer the distance the more 'points' existing. If you to it stipulate that each 'newly created point' also should bring with it a same mechanism, creating more points, you end up with something (a vacuum) 'accelerating' much too fast. So maybe you need 'dark matter'.
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Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #1684 on: 20/02/2016 19:29:58 »
Or maybe one need a new definition of how it works? Add or subtract dimensions? What would 'dark matter' become in a holographic universe for example?
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Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #1685 on: 20/02/2016 19:43:48 »
So what am I asking here? :)
Well, do you think 'time' is 'clocks'?

If you think that anything we define also needs a proof of measurement, then 'time' is what is measured by 'clocks'. Can't see any other way to measure time by? Using decay is also a question of clocks, how else could I prove it? So does a local life span change? Not according to your local clock. Does 'c' change? Not according to your local clock.
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Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #1686 on: 20/02/2016 19:49:24 »
The next question is how you would define what is 'local'? Should you take it literary? As the closer you can get to a thought up 'point' the more 'local' it must be? Does light propagate?
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Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #1687 on: 20/02/2016 19:50:45 »
in the beginning there was constants:)
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Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #1688 on: 20/02/2016 19:56:23 »
Those 'constants' are the same presumably, everywhere. What that states is that you can take any point in this universe, or in yourself, and find those constants.
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Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #1689 on: 21/02/2016 08:00:48 »
I think that it is possible to look at it two ways. The first-most is experiments, trial and error, learning by what they tell us. As you collect experiments and statistics telling you how the universe acts, the next way becomes possible. It's about looking at those facts, asking yourself how one should make sense of them. And yes, always about time, that's what takes you to this other door of query. I mean :) Wouldn't it be lovely if we could agree on constants being tangibly real? Just like our thoughts are, or do you doubt yourself thinking? That would cut those questions of at their feet. In that case light does not 'propagate', although it is measuring its propagation that gave us the constant.
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Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #1690 on: 21/02/2016 08:03:18 »
And yes, it makes sense, although it doesn't..

It's the difference between what I experience, and what is.
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Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #1691 on: 21/02/2016 08:25:12 »
As long as the universe builds on logic it should be decipherable.
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Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #1692 on: 21/02/2016 08:32:55 »
I'm not too keen on many worlds universes myself. Although I agree that probabilities coexist I prefer a answer in where only one world becomes realizable, the one with the highest probability of existing. That world use time (and three spatial directions). So I won't become a emperor, or even filthy rich:) 'somewhere else'. The reason is those 'bifurcations/splits' leading to other 'bifurcations/splits' ad infinitium, in a infinite amount of 'coexisting' universes, creating new ones, as none of them has a priority.
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Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #1693 on: 21/02/2016 08:36:52 »
If none has a priority, then it all coexist. If it all coexist the universe must be static, free will a illusion. What would that make HUP? One creates a logic fallacy presuming that when something happens here it leads to those multitudes of worlds. Why would this world/universe have a priority?
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Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #1694 on: 21/02/2016 08:43:06 »
HUP is about the uncertainty of everything, a complementary to 'free will' the way I look at it. In a static universe that's not needed as everything coexist, side by side into smithereens. In that universe we would be automata, no free decisions possible . Physics would be meaningless.
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Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #1695 on: 21/02/2016 08:47:33 »
There is one more way I like though. Take a 'static universes', allow for a infinity. Call them probabilities, and let them coexist. Introduce free will, and let it choose amongst probabilities. This/those 'static universe(s)', as 'it' is 'infinite' would then become 'free wills' playground.
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Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #1696 on: 21/02/2016 08:49:43 »
Like sparks of light navigating, guessing as well as choosing, together creating the reality we call SpaceTime.
Or maybe a better choice of worlds would be 'observing' SpaceTime.
We're firstly observers and participants.
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Offline yor_on

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Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #1697 on: 21/02/2016 08:58:20 »
The choices could then possibly be seen as creating 'time lines'. Probabilities falling out into reality. And to gain its global representation you will need a means of communication, a information universe. That's where 'c' comes in, it's a limit of communication, at least 'meaningful communication'.
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Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #1698 on: 21/02/2016 09:09:36 »
Which could be seen as if we consist of a 'fault' in something whole. The whole creation of a universe with a direction of time, something local, locked out. That would make 'time', what? A representation of the 'fault'. Time is what gives us the ability to reason the way we do, and see things unfold. The direction gives us the reality unfolding. A Big Bang being something faulty? Or, something allowing the universe to comprehend itself? Yeah, a weird universe, and weird thoughts indeed :)
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Offline the5thforce

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Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #1699 on: 21/02/2016 16:21:24 »
the completely incomplete spectrum of infinitely finite infinity:

infinity is incomplete
finity is incomplete infinity
infinite nothing is incomplete
finite nothing is incomplete infinite nothing
infinite something is incomplete
finite something is incomplete infinite something
infinite space is incomplete
finite space is incomplete infinite space
infinite time is incomplete
finite time is incomplete infinite time
permanent is incomplete
temporary is incomplete permanent
temporary is incomplete
permanent is incomplete temporary
infinite permanent is incomplete
finite permanent is incomplete infinite permanent
infinite temporary is incomplete
finite temporary is incomplete infinite temporary
the past is temporary, if you cant completely recall your past it was incomplete
the present is temporary, if you cant completely know whats happening its incomplete
the future is temporary, if you cant completely predict your future it hasnt happened yet
the future is a new space where time hasnt occured, the future is a new time where space hasnt occured