An essay in futility, too long to read :)

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Offline yor_on

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Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #1700 on: 22/02/2016 08:05:59 »
Almost poetry, five :)

Everything is in a flux, but as soon you pass it, it's history. Whether history exist after its passed? It happened, didn't it? Even if you can't remember it. We're not meant to remember everything, the brain doesn't work that way, but that doesn't mean it didn't happen. That's those probabilities falling out. When it comes to what people choose to remember that's a different thing, colored by preconceptions hopes etc.
=

And stuff that made such an impression on you, that you can't forget I should add. Doesn't need to be exactly factual, the brain still works as above, but horrific situations will imprint themselves, and be very hard to let go. One good reason to avoid creating them for each other.

« Last Edit: 22/02/2016 08:17:39 by yor_on »
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Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #1701 on: 22/02/2016 08:51:25 »
When it comes to different types of logic, as Boolean logic, it works very well digitally, and can copy a lot of real life situations. Inside its limits its perfectly consistent, but it won't make a brain. If one look at guys as Einstein or Feigenbaum, Grigori Perelman or Shinichi Mochizukithey they all step outside what is assumed, to then more or less create the mathematics that explain. This one might be interesting http://www.nature.com/news/the-biggest-mystery-in-mathematics-shinichi-mochizuki-and-the-impenetrable-proof-1.18509
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Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #1702 on: 22/02/2016 10:33:32 »
I see at least two ways of avoiding 'horrific situations'. One that is ideal, it builds on each one of us being aware of them, and so refuse to create them. The other is also personal, and come from a story I read about this guy in China. He was there under one or another 'internal cleansing' of undesirable thoughts and attitudes, going on for some year or so. As the situation developed he just disappeared from his neighborhood, to come back after this 'cleansing' had taken its turn, and worn out. As his neighbors asked how he had managed, he just told them he had taken a walk to nearby Tibet :) Reminds me of a 'walkabout', and yes, it's tao. Although I prefer the ideal, I guess the second approach will be the more practical one. No way anyone can wake one that refuse.
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Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #1703 on: 22/02/2016 16:57:13 »
What this kind of reasoning knits to is 'gametheory', which as far as I can see is a question of self interests. Game theory is not predicting the future, it's looking at what might motivate someone to act in a for you preferable way, alternatively just trying to get to a best guess of what someone will do. And depending on the stakes, if you get it wrong you can get it horribly wrong.
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Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #1704 on: 22/02/2016 17:08:06 »
As with everything else, Game theory is only as good as the questions you ask. Presuming something will influence the answer. Like NATO recently presuming that limited nuclear wars is a thing that can be done, wanting to change its military doctrine. You don't need game theory to see that this idea would be a escalation.
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Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #1705 on: 22/02/2016 17:25:13 »
Try this one for size.

http://www.hawking.org.uk/does-god-play-dice.html

There is no way to predict a future, that I know of? What we do is guess, using whatever knowledge we can gather. You can turn it around and ask yourself if you know any one, think tank or not, that consistently has been correct about the future. Or just have a look in those magazines from the fifties that described how the next century would look like. They were no different from us, no new ways of 'knowing the future' has come to light, that I know of.

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Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #1706 on: 22/02/2016 17:29:48 »
That was the sole point of having MAD. It created a situation in where all parties saw that the win would be a loss. But change that to one where we assume that a limited nuclear war is possible, and you change the game. So, does right and wrong exist?
==


MAD 'mutually assured destruction'


« Last Edit: 22/02/2016 17:33:12 by yor_on »
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Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #1707 on: 22/02/2016 17:46:45 »
We've never been that good on long scale planning, have we? Unless you count in things as Stonehenge possibly? And the pyramids naturally :)

Your self interests, taking a longer time perspective is not necessarily the self interests that benefit you short term. Global warming, and what we call the 'agreements on global warming' only goes to prove it. Those agreements won't stop it, neither will any killing of cows, or becoming a vegetarian. There's a lot of ridiculous ideas out there, but they work, why? They fit our short term self interests.
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Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #1708 on: 22/02/2016 17:54:13 »
So, how can we change?

By forcing each other, or by looking at oneself. The current structures only seem to allow for force, too few that are prepared to stop just to start question themselves. We don't have that kind of culture(s), allowing it, anymore, nowhere I know of at least. There are some traditions, but...

It's weird, as we had them, there was no real need for them, except possibly spiritual. Now, when we really need time to sit down and ponder what we think is worth living for, it doesn't exist anymore. At the same time as we accelerate into a world where a button push is all it takes.
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Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #1709 on: 22/02/2016 18:05:48 »
Then the next question should be. Do you think we will force each other to acknowledge the reality of global warming? I don't think so, fracking was the answer to oil resources diminishing, wasn't it? As well as geopolitical independence. We're built around self interests, and we want it now.
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Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #1710 on: 22/02/2016 18:21:41 »
What it means should be a drastically changed world. One containing mass migrations, where people will flee to save themselves and their kids from life's no longer worth living. And yes, it's a best guess, but I think a fair one. It should also mean 'Festung Europa', no matter if you're in, or out, of the EU, the same goes naturally for most other modern states. Hope I'm wrong.
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Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #1711 on: 29/02/2016 01:31:40 »
Let's get back to many worlds theory. In it we have probabilities, those all 'falls out'. Somewhere there seem to be an assumption of what I call our 'priority' for it to exist. But if it exist there should be no priority, which then mean that everything must coexist. Whether that should be seen as time doesn't exist, or that it does, seem to me to become a matter about from 'where' you stand looking at it. If you want this world/universe, that we know of experimentally, to be the one defining it you also should find yourself introducing time. That as nothing can exist 'fall out' until it does here, to me it gives us a presumed priority time wise. If many worlds would exist it has to coexist, if it does then 'time lines/histories' are in some ways illusions from that perspective, as there can't be a beginning and an end. The only thing that would create it would be us from our more limited perspective. But that is just one way to look at it, if you add 'free will' as the thing creating those time lines, then you have a 'static universe', but as it has no limits I can see, probabilities bifurcating into new probabilities, in their turn generating new bifurcations, generating new probabilities, bifurcating into, ad nauseum...? And if we define no priority to it, then it 'coexist'.

What is a infinity?
What is HUP?
Do you choose?
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Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #1712 on: 29/02/2016 01:38:18 »
A world defined by self interests, and lack of free will seems to me to become a very fatalistic world. It's world where Dictators does what they do because they have to. It's also a world where you no longer can discuss right or wrong, as everything just is as it is. It's a world where everything, from 'game theory' to 'physics' to 'love' becomes a matter of predestination. There is no longer a choice, and your cast is burned upon you.
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Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #1713 on: 29/02/2016 01:40:02 »
Expressed otherwise, it's a world I don't like. But how can I not like it if it is what is?
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Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #1714 on: 29/02/2016 01:42:23 »
Well, I would say I use my free will there :)
Not liking it. And so do you.
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Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #1715 on: 29/02/2016 01:44:56 »
Also: in such a world there can be no 'self interests' any more, can it? So why do we find 'game theory' to work? It's not a logic world, and this world builds on logic.
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Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #1716 on: 29/02/2016 01:52:18 »
But allow something else, give and call it a infinity of coexisting, let free will in all its different expressions be what defines it into a universe, and you get what we have. A place where we stopped throwing cats into the fireplace to get a good laugh. And then you suddenly have a open future, which also should be everyone's birth right,
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Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #1717 on: 29/02/2016 02:08:34 »
Actually, it would in my eyes place logic at a same level as magic. It doesn't matter anymore whether you draw conclusions from statistics for example. It all becomes predestined, doesn't it? And so just a meaningless expression for, and from, a belief.
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Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #1718 on: 29/02/2016 02:11:28 »
The way out of it is accepting that it coexist, and 'falls out' giving us histories. And that the reason for how it can should be choices and circumstances.
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Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #1719 on: 29/02/2016 02:17:28 »
And, naturally, giving us a logic that we can follow. So, does light propagate?
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Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #1720 on: 29/02/2016 10:04:32 »
We have 'c'. I haven't done a two mirror experiment myself, but I accept it as a fact. Whether you think it building on Maxwell's ideas or something else doesn't matter for it existing. But with gravitational time dilation's http://www.wired.com/2014/04/nist-atomic-clock/ as measured to exist by NIST? There exist traps in arguing that 'c' is 'c'  everywhere :) Think it through and you will see that my arguments for explaining why isn't watertight either. But if it is a constant experimentally, and can be proved at any place, at any time, then 'c' must be 'c'. And that is the closest to magic I can think of, eh, don't get me wrong here. I don't believe in magic, there must be a logical reason for whatever we may find unexplainable, or we have a universe that as easily could be 'predestined'. And as I said, I don't like that.
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Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #1721 on: 29/02/2016 10:09:44 »
So this is where we do the logic dip and roll. Doing it is no different than using statistics. Both builds on histories, in this case the experimental history of 'c' always being able to be proven to be 'c'. We let the propagation go for it, but keeps the constant.
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Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #1722 on: 29/02/2016 10:20:56 »
If we do so we no longer have to consider whether 'c' only should be 'c' in a uniform 'relative' motion, and stop being so, in a acceleration. And if you as me want 'c' to be our 'perfect clock', you also find this clock to be a constant. What 'c' then measure, amongst other things as 'speed', is 'time'. Which is your local arrow.
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Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #1723 on: 29/02/2016 10:30:40 »
And yes, accelerating doesn't change your lifespan, locally measured. It's easy to get fooled here, thinking of the universe as having different 'time rates'. It has, but only relative you. That, on the other tentacle, do not change your locally measured lifespan. To see what I deem to be important here you also need to consider how we come to find 'repeatable experiments'. We do them locally, then communicate our results to each other, and if they agree we start to define a way for how the universe seem to work. And 'locally' your lifespan is the same, locally 'c' is 'c'.
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Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #1724 on: 29/02/2016 10:35:07 »
My type of locality may not be exactly the same you meet in a physics description, but it should be a close analogy, as it with communicating 'spreads' as 'rings on the water'. In this case it spreads by 'c', in a four dimensional continuum. Then again, this is what we see, but it may be more to it. Subtract or add 'dimensions'.
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Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #1725 on: 29/02/2016 10:39:13 »
Has a constant a 'size'? Can you use quantum mechanics to define it? Is it instead a scale, as if you first have constants, then scale it all up, into a universe.
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Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #1726 on: 29/02/2016 10:49:46 »
There's a lot of things in physics, and quantum mechanics, that we deem to exist, without having a 'size', 'point particles' for example. And if you find this questionable, what about thoughts? Shouldn't they too then have a 'size'? Shouldn't everything be measurable? Well, it seems to be measurable, all of it, but not in terms of 'size'. We use forces and fields instead. And if you like, 'virtual particles' and probability.
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Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #1727 on: 29/02/2016 10:57:45 »
So yes, we definitely live in a information universe. A universe defined by constants, forces, possibly field(s), 'virtuality' and probabilities. And not to forget, uncertainty. It's information that keeps this universe together. And it needs time to communicate, which becomes 'c'. It's the 'light' you see that tells you that it exist.
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Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #1728 on: 29/02/2016 11:08:10 »
So, from 'nothing', a universe. Then life using 'thoughts' to create even more complicated mental structures, both for explaining as well as for just being able to get along with each other, as ethics. Which is more 'real'? Where does this universal buildup of structures end? Maybe it doesn't, maybe that too becomes a infinity of expressions?
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Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #1729 on: 29/02/2016 11:09:07 »
A information universe with something more added to it, a little spice called free will.
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Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #1730 on: 04/03/2016 22:56:48 »
And then, you live, and then you die? Is that all there is :)
Not from where I look at it. You're the one that will make a change, yourself. I do trust you. And I expect you to do the best you can.
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Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #1731 on: 04/03/2016 23:01:39 »
Don't fall for the idea of perfection. That's Bs**
Do the best you can, accept you're human, but still, try.

Perfection is only accessible when you have a crowd, telling each other that they must be the pinnacle of perfection. Well, they're not. Neither will you be, how much you ever strive for it, in a crowd or alone. Accepting ones limits is not accepting defeat, it's just where you start. And it's not greed.
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Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #1732 on: 04/03/2016 23:02:19 »
Be a human being.
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Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #1733 on: 04/03/2016 23:31:13 »
I'm not sure if it was Tolkien creating it? But I seem to remember the word 'wellrounded', possibly relating to hobittians? I do think that covers it though. Go for a well rounded life :) One where you actually can live, and die, with yourself. Just try, and f* perfect.
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Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #1734 on: 07/03/2016 16:35:40 »
Allow me to digress somewhat. Tolkien.

I love his prose, or verse :) Depending. Seen a lot of SF and fantasy buffs telling each other how their respective genres have developed into something more, but for me there are only a few authors that really touch a bards mastery, and there Tolkien is probably the foremost. You have Stapeldons 'last and first men' naturally, it's a epic travel through 'history', as modern today as when it was written, although you better consider it somewhat of a parallel to our own history. Jack Vance is a underestimated author that I find extremely good too, in the way he smith his words, and considering those, Ray Bradbury naturally although that comes closer to Edgar Allan Poe in my taste, not just SF in other words. I think we have a lot of really good wordsmiths those days, that can stand for themselves. But, people like Tolkien comes few in between to me, could be advanced age naturally :) me feeling that I already read it once as soon as I've opened it and started reading, but I don't think so.
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Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #1735 on: 07/03/2016 16:43:02 »
And in some ways he was as me, believing in good and bad. He had this to say about the 'one ring', if it now had existed under world war two. That it really wouldn't have mattered who got it, as neither side would have avoided using it. As I remember it, that is. That's about 'forcing' each other into outcomes. Being a individual is harder, and takes so much more courage.
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Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #1736 on: 07/03/2016 16:56:06 »
So, what might be a synonym for the 'one ring' today.
Nuclear.

It's what the Russians have, and use, as a 'credible threat' now as their buffer zones and conventional forces are found lacking. It's what NATO recently would have liked to introduce in their military doctrines as being 'limited warfare'. It's what North Korea wave around, threatening us all. Then of course, we have China, Israel, UK, France, etc etc.

I find myself agreeing with Tolkien there.
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Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #1737 on: 07/03/2016 17:57:09 »
Maybe the question should be.

Would the one ring be any less if Saruman would have gotten his way? Maybe he wasn't the one 'destined' to use it, but would the ring have wrecked less havoc in his hands than in Saurons? I don't think so myself, it's not who has it, it's who use it. You might think of it, I do at least, as opening Pandoras box.
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Offline yor_on

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Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #1738 on: 07/03/2016 18:15:38 »
The ring does not get less, due to a different handler. Neither can it be less because of a changed description. But that's what we see when it comes to nuclear, a change of description. In reality the first one using it will open the lid, and the world you thought you knew will be gone.
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Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #1739 on: 09/03/2016 14:41:34 »
When you sit in your car, doing 70 km per hour, do you contain more energy? What happens when you collide with a rock? Will the speed, relative that rock, matter? What is 'energy'? The best explanation I've read is JP:s, calling 'energy' a 'coin of exchange'. But what does it exchange? If you got up close to 'c', coasting along in a uniform motion, would your atoms, molecules etc, 'jiggle' more due to that uniform motion? Where would you place the 'energy'?
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Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #1740 on: 09/03/2016 14:43:47 »
Is the universe a container?
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Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #1741 on: 09/03/2016 14:50:58 »
Something keeps a measure. Doesn't matter if we call it 'relative', or 'absolute'. The Universe will be able to define the energy content any which way, won't it? The funny thing about a uniform motion through a vacuum (space) is that there is no resistance, there is no 'internal buildup of atoms jiggling' due to a speed, doesn't matter from where, and how, you define it. The only buildup we can define is in a acceleration. There you actually can feel it building up, as when accelerating your car.
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Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #1742 on: 09/03/2016 14:56:40 »
But it's not because of your atoms jiggling, well, as far as I know then :)
What you feel we call 'gravity', not atoms jiggling. If I'm wrong there we also can assume that even in a perfect vacuum, anything accelerating close to 'c' should first start glowing, then 'dissolve' more or less, due to that 'energy' building up, 'jiggling' your atoms etc. Same thing as with a stove, you putting a iron on it. Assuming you to have a very hot stove naturally :)
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Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #1743 on: 09/03/2016 15:24:03 »
How do the universe keep count? Assume a universe without accelerations, only uniform motions. A uniform motion is locally measured indistinguishable from being still. A perfect car on a perfect road, 'coasting along' will then need you to look out to prove yourself moving, and the measure you take is one relative something else, the road itself etc. So locally defined you don't move at all measurably, only relative other things.

Now, does a universe only containing relative motion (uniform motion) still have different 'speeds' to it? If it does, how does the universe keep count of the 'energy' released in a thought up collision between two uniformly moving objects? How can it know? Locally measured there is no difference, nothing that tells you how fast you go, and there isn't any way to define some universal gold standard for motion, only for accelerations. And the way we define that 'universal' gold standard is as usual, we do it locally, then communicate our results, and finding them agreeing with each other, we lift it up to a 'universal truth'.
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Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #1744 on: 09/03/2016 15:35:24 »
It takes some thinking over to see what I aim for there. After all, most cars have speedometers, and the way we make them agree with each other builds on a similar principle. Us defining 'km' or 'miles' or ... But we do it relative a gold standard, it's called the road, or 'earth', which we then define to be in 'zero motion'. With a acceleration the difference is that you don't really need to define it relative 'something else', you can actually feel it. We use a accelrometer to measure it but it's still very local, acting on each of your atoms as far as I can see.
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Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #1745 on: 09/03/2016 15:38:07 »
But it won't make you glow.
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Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #1746 on: 09/03/2016 15:48:44 »
One lovely way to describe motion, accelerating or uniform, is called displacements in time. Depending on if they (the displacements) grow and also how they grow we then can define different types of motion. As a uniform motion, relative a constantly uniformly growing (accelerating) motion, relative those accelerations that doesn't fit, becoming 'unevenly accelerating', more or less.
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Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #1747 on: 09/03/2016 16:04:48 »
maybe the problem lies in the way I think of 'energy'. The cleanest example I can think of is a light quanta, a concentration of energy' having a place in your room, without actually taking any part of it, But that is what I usually think of as 'energy', maybe that needs to be changed.
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Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #1748 on: 09/03/2016 16:20:16 »
Something that creates no resistance, no friction, that allow your perpetual uniform motion, is that 'energy'?
A perfect vacuum.
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Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #1749 on: 09/03/2016 16:24:46 »
Is the universe a container? A leaking container? A container that only can get 'filled' into a same equilibrium, as the universe expands? What is a distance, is it 'observer dependent' or not? Depends on your beliefs, doesn't it? In the end the question becomes one in where you either define this universe to be, or not to be. A illusion in some terms, or 'as real as can be'. Most of the really deep questions isn't about facts, it's about ones presumptions. They define the facts.
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