An essay in futility, too long to read :)

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Offline yor_on

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Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #2050 on: 06/06/2016 08:02:05 »
So no, we're not in a simulation.
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Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #2051 on: 06/06/2016 08:05:47 »
The next question would be if a simulation would allow free choices. If you accept my idea of that creating limits, then those limits must exist for ones choices too. And a limited free choice is not a free choice. You can argue that physics set rules for all choices though.
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Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #2052 on: 06/06/2016 08:07:40 »
But a choice doesn't need to follow those rules, and looking at us, we don't follow them, unless forced by necessity, do we :) We have all kind of ideas, from ghosts existing to a flat earth.
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Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #2053 on: 06/06/2016 08:11:28 »
Free choice exist.
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Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #2054 on: 06/06/2016 08:16:37 »
The real point of it is that it won't matter. A infinity will still be infinite, the number of planets coming to no end, even though lesser than the volume of space. And that is an ever weirder thought, isn't it :)
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Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #2055 on: 06/06/2016 08:17:51 »
And yes, a free choice must include free will.
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Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #2056 on: 06/06/2016 08:23:02 »
It depends on what one consider 'simulating' something too. If the simulation you make is indecipherable from what you call reality? Is it still just a 'simulation'?
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Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #2057 on: 06/06/2016 08:24:45 »
We're not there, and probably never will be either. Not if we continue as now.
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Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #2058 on: 06/06/2016 08:45:40 »
Let's play the scenario one step further. In a 'perfect simulation', what would define you as its 'creator'? the ability to go down on a individual level, or your ability to close it down, change its origin of rules?
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Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #2059 on: 06/06/2016 08:48:59 »
What do you think would be the level of expertise needed to 'go down' in such a simulation to redefine just one 'individual', without changing or disturbing the simulations general rules? And remember, we're defining this simulation as indecipherable from your own reality.
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Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #2060 on: 06/06/2016 08:50:33 »
I don't think it's possible myself, not if it include free will and infinity's.
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Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #2061 on: 06/06/2016 08:51:20 »
I'm not even sure if it's possible to close it down :)
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Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #2062 on: 06/06/2016 08:53:50 »
It all depends on what one means by this 'simulation', doesn't it?
Imperfect? Or a perfect replica?
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Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #2063 on: 06/06/2016 09:05:39 »
The universe use rules as far as I know, not magic. Now, if this universe would be magic instead, then you probably could do whatever you liked. Using rules though, the most I would expect is for you to set a origin, to then watch it unfold.
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Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #2064 on: 06/06/2016 09:08:57 »
And what join that origin, for you as well as for those 'inside it', should then be 'time'. All of this presuming it is possible, which I highly doubt.
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Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #2065 on: 06/06/2016 09:16:51 »
If we now could describe this infinite universe as a 'sphere' as seen from some 'higher dimension', then the number of planets are limited, and so must the volume of 'space' they exist in. What then would make us unable to prove it practically should be time. It all comes down to time, doesn't it.
==

A 'spheres surface' if so, not the 'volume' defining it, just that surface.
« Last Edit: 06/06/2016 09:18:52 by yor_on »
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Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #2066 on: 07/06/2016 07:39:09 »
The idea of calling it a 'spheres surface' comes from two ideas. One is the 'holistic vision' in where we only might have one 'dimension' with the others being 'simulated' for our pleasure, possibly you can exclude the arrow from it too though? The other is this nagging feeling I still have of it being 'connections' that makes this universe. It 'communicates' itself into a reality as described from inside. So the 'sphere' is just a way of combining those two into a main stream description. If it's communication alone that makes it, not the idea of dimensions although they may be one way to describe it, then the universe becomes even more interesting to me :)
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Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #2067 on: 07/06/2016 07:44:41 »
If the later is more correct then indeterminism is where it comes from, how then the rules for communication and acting is created is another thing, that I don't have a answer for so far, probably forever :) And indeterminism is no 'dimension'.
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Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #2068 on: 07/06/2016 07:47:02 »
But it still seems to me that there are evolutions going on, in several ways, ethics being one of the most important to me. We evolve.
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Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #2069 on: 07/06/2016 07:49:17 »
More precisely stated, either you evolve or you disappear. And that includes 'ethics' for those of us called humans, I think that's the next step we must take to survive.
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Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #2070 on: 07/06/2016 07:50:44 »
Mother Earth doesn't care, she have all the time in the world to try again if we now fail.
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Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #2071 on: 07/06/2016 07:53:29 »
To her your importance is no greater than the importance of a gnat, a flower or a tree. We overstepped our allowance here, so if there is a self regulating system we probably will get evicted from the premises. Unless we shape up.
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Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #2072 on: 07/06/2016 07:54:46 »
So, be a warrior. And start taking responsibility.
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Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #2073 on: 07/06/2016 08:17:05 »
Why she doesn't care? If now ethics is a step in the right direction? It's called 'free will', It's up to you.
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Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #2074 on: 07/06/2016 08:34:49 »
The most probable view I see is one in where we evict ourselves, by wars, overpopulation, and global warming, and as they grow we decline. And the reason we keep running away is your inability to assume responsibility for yourself. You lay it on hierarchies instead which have the effect of leaving no one responsible for anything. So the only thing left is that short time you exist, your immediate needs, and 'profits' as our common nominator and value meter. How we measure ourselves.
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Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #2075 on: 07/06/2016 09:39:46 »
It reminds me of that Russian mathematician, Grigori Perelman. Talked with some people not being able to see what could make a man refuse money :) I had and still have no problem with it, or him, but to those it seemed almost a insult. And so it seems a lot of people think.
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Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #2076 on: 07/06/2016 09:43:43 »
Once you realized that there are more important things to life than profit you're on your way. But it takes a lot of courage to say your mind, and people won't like it. It disturbs their image of what a world is, and means. People love to seek shelter inside hierarchies, it's a safe environment as long as you conform.
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Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #2077 on: 07/06/2016 09:49:00 »
The most difficult hierarchies to see is your own, the way they color your sight, your preconceptions.
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Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #2078 on: 07/06/2016 09:51:38 »
They builds up from your environment, and often you find no need of questioning them. they 'are what you are'. Sometimes you may become forced to reevaluate them, that doesn't mean they disappear though.
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Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #2079 on: 07/06/2016 09:59:10 »
We learn to limit ourselves, and we do it to fit in.
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Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #2080 on: 07/06/2016 09:59:40 »
Be a warrior instead.
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Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #2081 on: 07/06/2016 10:17:59 »
Just for fun, consider a 'perfect rocket', able to reach some velocity (speed, if you like that better) so close to lights that it becomes impossible to define. Would a infinite universe still be infinite?
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Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #2082 on: 07/06/2016 10:20:47 »
Turn it around, what would make a infinite universe, finite?
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Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #2083 on: 07/06/2016 18:21:11 »
A last question :)

Does your local arrow disappear under any of those scenarios?

=
Simply expressed, do you still age?
« Last Edit: 07/06/2016 18:25:13 by yor_on »
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Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #2084 on: 07/06/2016 18:26:18 »
Where does it disappear?
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Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #2085 on: 09/06/2016 10:01:38 »
Take hold of a beam of light, will it age? We get light right from the 'birth' of this universe, light so distant in time that its origin comes from the 'Big Bang'. That was a very long time ago, but it's still here, it may redshift but not due to aging, at least the way main stream science consider it, and by me too btw.
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Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #2086 on: 09/06/2016 10:13:32 »
In the end everything equals out, like you mixing hot with cold to get to temperated. It's called 'entropy' and it's time that stands for the mixing, that is, unless you consider entropy to be time as well. And another idea is that nothing contained by this universe disappear, so the ' energy difference's ' that exist allowing us to tap them for our cars etc won't be there at that time, but the 'energy' itself should come to a same 'amount' as now, 'counted' over a universe.
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Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #2087 on: 09/06/2016 10:14:28 »
That's a pretty hard thing to digest.
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Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #2088 on: 09/06/2016 10:22:47 »
If a universe is without limits then? There being no end to it, how does it do it? And then we have the expansion of our universe, that seems to accelerate. How can something infinite grow? Then again, the volume of space will always be greater than the volume of planets, won't it. And if one accept that both examples already are of a infinite magnitude, then?

When you think of a Big Bangs 'origin', and look around you to see it, using 'old light', you always will find yourself in the center. The 'origin' is wherever you are in a way, as the oldest lights origin, if someone stood there, would define you the same way. There is no 'real center' to it.
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Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #2089 on: 09/06/2016 10:24:51 »
So, if we now use a 'spheres surface' and define ourselves in it, shouldn't it too grow?
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Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #2090 on: 09/06/2016 10:28:08 »
How that one work is by using time, clocks of different types. We define this universe by time, not by 'size'.
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Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #2091 on: 09/06/2016 10:33:08 »
Can you see the mystery that brings with it? If there is no defined 'origin', except from using clocks (time) to give you a start, then this 'origin' happened 'everywhere'. The universe becomes 'infinite' as it starts to exist.
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Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #2092 on: 09/06/2016 10:34:03 »
How is that possible?
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Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #2093 on: 09/06/2016 10:42:48 »
I would really like to see someone try to simulate that :)
Don't think this universe has the capacity, to do it.

==

I won't take an oath on it, but I'm pretty sure that we won't be able to simulate it using computers though.
« Last Edit: 09/06/2016 10:46:57 by yor_on »
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Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #2094 on: 09/06/2016 10:44:25 »
Something had, but not the origin we see, that's something else coming from it.
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Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #2095 on: 09/06/2016 10:45:34 »
indeterminacy?

What do you think? Would that allow for it?
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Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #2096 on: 09/06/2016 10:52:53 »
What is a vacuum? Only a geometry? 'Energy'?
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Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #2097 on: 09/06/2016 10:54:01 »
A different set of 'rules'?
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Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #2098 on: 09/06/2016 10:55:52 »
Does a vacuum contain time?
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Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #2099 on: 09/06/2016 10:56:19 »
How do you measure time?
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