An essay in futility, too long to read :)

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Offline yor_on

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Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #2350 on: 24/09/2016 12:08:44 »
Let's assume there is a equilibrium existing in this universe, and uniform motions belongs to it. You can see it two ways, either that everything existing in our global representation of a universe has about the same speeds as they come to be equivalently under the same local circumstances, as well as if all 'uniform motions', even when not assuming the first, actually becomes a equilibrium. Both, or each one for itself?
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Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #2351 on: 24/09/2016 12:11:42 »
Can you see why I find it so important to differ between 'locality' as in ones local 'reality', relative that 'global reality' we call our 'universe'?
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Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #2352 on: 24/09/2016 12:14:31 »
Doesn't matter what star you choose to measure that blue shift relative. A higher 'uniform speed' should still present a blue shift globally. It would be revolutionizing if you could prove it otherwise.

=

Better point out that the blueshift will be in the direction of your motion, with a reciprocate redshift created at your aft, locally measured naturally.


« Last Edit: 24/09/2016 12:20:09 by yor_on »
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Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #2353 on: 24/09/2016 12:22:48 »
Now, let's assume this is wrong. Then, as soon as you stop accelerating, there will be no blue and red shifts measurable. I don't hold to this myself, but it would make it simpler, in some ways :)
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Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #2354 on: 24/09/2016 12:42:49 »
The definition of sharing a 'frame of reference' aka same 'locality' is nicely expressed in the accelerating rocket, relative the rocket uniformly moving. You put a lightbulb in the middle of that rocket, then measure blue, respectively red, shifts from the front, as well as the rockets aft as it accelerates. And they will exist, but as soon as you move uniformly they disappear. The definition here is that everything share a same locality, and it is therefore you can observe the difference between a uniform motion relative a acceleration. They do share a same 'frame of reference', but :) to me it's slightly questionable, at least when accelerating. (This from a point of me wanting to define a 'frame' relative lights blue redshifts)

And from that then to different uniform motions, as measured relative some agreed on 'fixed star', do they or do they not share a same frame of reference, locally measured? will there be blue and redshifts depending on different 'local motions'?
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Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #2355 on: 24/09/2016 13:42:09 »
What I see is that locality is everything. It's about being alive, observing, acting and getting acted on. Locality doesn't lie to you. Locality contains time, and so clocks. The universe on the other tentacle, our agreed on dimensionalities? I don't know, it's about what you think is more 'real'. To me that is local. Then again, the universe do exist, and we conform to it.
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Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #2356 on: 24/09/2016 13:44:49 »
And then the question might be why we do it?
Well, that one is already answered in all assumptions we make about rules being the same in each point. It doesn't prove the universe to be a 'whole container' though. It just presume rules existing.
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Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #2357 on: 24/09/2016 13:45:18 »
And they do :)
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Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #2358 on: 24/09/2016 14:02:04 »
And yes, let's go back to Mach universe, looking at it my way. He's more right than wrong :) Einstein was correct at first, then started to doubt himself, and Mach. Locally defined everything is a equivalence, and locally defined everything acts on each other, from same principles and rules. The real mystery is this 'globalization' of it that we live in. And there I also will wonder about probabilities, coming from statistics over a whole universe, well, sort of :) Einstein wanted a continuum, a global definition, and Mach became slightly uncomfortable. I on the other tentacle settle for a local definition, and in that one Mach has a place. Or you want to argue that coming from the exact same rules and principles, using 'c' as a communicator, you're not acted on? And you don't act?

Locality.
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Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #2359 on: 26/09/2016 11:19:11 »
I know, could have expressed that one better. Anyway, it's argumentative, no mathematical proofs to it although it should be fairly simple to equal 'c' to a 'perfect clock'. and the rest builds on that, more or less. It's about being slightly one eyed, defining what I think is more important, which then becomes what I call 'locality'.

Let's discuss global warming :)

I'll give you a few reasons why I expect 'adapting' to be the sole answer. Did you know that there are experiments finding that you can split humanity in two groups? Aha, no, not that one, it's about expectations about life. Some see the positive first in a mixed picture, others the negative. You could call it outlooks on life, in where those observing what's negative will want to protect themselves firstly, versus those that see a image as firstly positive will find themselves eager to explore that. And it's instinctual, hard wired into our species. Look it up.

Here in Sweden nobody in my environment cared for a so called National day, neither did we give that much importance to a flag. Today it's different, national days gets 'invented' and celebrated.  ( I don't think my generation was any less 'Swedish' than the one we see today though :)

Now put those two statements together and try to see what might have changed our outlook.

and yes, global warming. There is a abstract momentum to humanity. We strive for similar things, food, security, kids etc etc. Basic stuff. Then comes something telling us that the system we has created now seem to lead us down a path with uncertain outcomes. The 'American dream' if you so want, shared by all, even those that calls America the 'great Satan'. Because those too will want that refrigerator, the car, etc etc.

Now, telling others what to do, as long as it doesn't involve you, is easier than doing it when it impact on you too, right? We all want a decent living standard. But global warming is insidious, and most of us realize that if we actually wanted to do something effective about it, it would impact not only on our living standards, but also on the beliefs and structures that forms the modern society's we have.  So, not only your wallet, but also your core beliefs.

It's not only oil dripping megalomaniacs that support the way we 'treat' global warming, In fact, I think you, as well as me, do it too. It's standing between a hard place and a rock, with this overwhelming 'human momentum' creating the path we walk.
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Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #2360 on: 26/09/2016 19:47:01 »
So, do we need to change those core beliefs then? Well, we can keep on as we do, and see what happens, not that I would recommend it myself. I would expect that kind of solution to lead to a increasing inequality, not only rich country's versus poor, but actually inside each country existing on this planet. I would prefer us to look over our beliefs instead, and try to decide what makes life worth living. Ever noticed that no revolution ever seem to change those basic core beliefs? The same attitude pops up, no matter what ideals presented.
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Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #2361 on: 26/09/2016 19:59:24 »
In fact, global warming is to me about a increasing inequality, and so is our monetary belief system. although the last is about deeply held beliefs, and trust, you actually could argue that global warming comes from a same attitude. building it through trust in our inability to ever influence a whole Earth system. Inequality leads to all kind of bad things, not only for those on the wrong side of the fence.
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Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #2362 on: 26/09/2016 20:13:48 »
So what can change cores? How about education? A equal right to it, guaranteed in law, with no fees involved. Let me give a example, recently meet a guy that had four kids, the oldest was seven. Everyone had a right to go to school in this country, but you still needed money for the school 'utensils', as pens paper etc. You also needed to buy a school uniform. The result from that was that this kid got a 'home schooling' instead. By that I mean a poster containing the alphabet and multiplication table, hanging on a wall. what chances would you give that kid?
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Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #2363 on: 03/10/2016 08:07:45 »
And time.

The time between something being 'virtual' relative 'real'?
The shorter the time the more uncertain the 'energy'
In Ultrawideband "fundamental physics dictates that ultrashort pulses occupy a wide swath of the radio frequency spectrum."

What makes it real?
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Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #2364 on: 03/10/2016 08:13:55 »
Time of course :)
That's what makes something 'real' to me. That is also what I differ into a past, a now, and a future. And 'time' is also a scale. It's definitely something emerging with ones scale of measuring. This is ignoring the problem with the 'macroscopic observer' existing though, the one needed to measure and observe anything.
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Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #2365 on: 03/10/2016 08:15:39 »
If I don't ignore the macroscopically existing observer then time is real. And as all 'our' observations builds on that phenomena?
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Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #2366 on: 03/10/2016 08:19:50 »
you might naively consider it so that 'time' is a macroscopic derivation of a microscopic arrow of time. At the very small scale of change, regarding 'constants', then 'probabilities' falling out into a macroscopic definition of a 'global time'.
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Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #2367 on: 03/10/2016 08:45:10 »
I'm not even sure if it is valid to consider a fields borders :) Translated into relativity you're 'inside SpaceTime' as Pete used to express it. From that point of view there is no 'outside' to prove, and from the idea of a 'field' with, as I at least would like it to be, 'non propagating photons' it doesn't makes a sense discussing what's not that 'field'.
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Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #2368 on: 03/10/2016 08:48:22 »
Simply expressed, SpaceTime is not some looking glass that we can see through, observing a 'outside'. SpaceTime is all there ever will be for us, it's us.
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Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #2369 on: 03/10/2016 08:57:54 »
But we can see scales to it, can't we :)
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Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #2370 on: 03/10/2016 09:39:56 »
Alternatively you could consider 'global time' a 'emergence'. The global emergence of what we call 'time' leads to confusion though, when one try to see how time dilations etc fits it. Then again, locally defined that 'time' never change for you, your life expectancy being the same, never mind what speeds or mass you're experiencing (generally speaking now).  So what holds locally 'breaks down' globally. And the idea of a emergence is then something that one will find hard, or even impossible, to define from its constituents former behavior, as when water freeze to ice.
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Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #2371 on: 03/10/2016 09:40:47 »
And it's all about the scale you use.
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Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #2372 on: 03/10/2016 09:42:40 »
It's very easy to see that constants must be local, but then we have constants as Feigenbaums? How can they be considered local? Can a constant also become emergent?
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Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #2373 on: 03/10/2016 09:44:28 »
Why not?
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Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #2374 on: 03/10/2016 09:53:10 »
For me it's somewhat as a logic matrix, scaling up into new behaviors, presenting 'new constants'. and the question of which 'constants' being more 'real' also becoming a question of at what scale you will define it from.
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Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #2375 on: 03/10/2016 09:55:28 »
Because if time doesn't exist, well, depending on ones definitions, then constants should be all equally existing, or 'non existing', shouldn't they? :) That's what I would call a 'static reality'.
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Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #2376 on: 03/10/2016 10:06:15 »
Although I do say that time exist, and as long as one treat it locally there should be no ambiguities to it. Your ruler and wristwatch always giving you one same constant 'length, time', as well as all other 'measurements' you may think up. But using that wristwatch and ruler we introduce a macroscopic definition of what a locality is, don't we? At the same time as we create a ideal spot-like cerebral definition of it. So, Feigenbaums constants are no less anchored in our 'reality' than what that definition suddenly comes to be.
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Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #2377 on: 03/10/2016 10:12:17 »
So one arrow, not several, but a strictly local one. that means time dilations globally, but as the most you can expect from that arrow is to shrink into a 'nothing' as measured relative your own local time, no time travels into the past.
=

the perfect description of that is a black hole, relative yourself, measuring at a far distance.
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Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #2378 on: 03/10/2016 10:20:29 »
Locality have different meanings here. One is the cerebral, the other is about what scale a observer measure on. what is more 'physical'? How do you lift out/negate the observer from the observed?
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Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #2379 on: 03/10/2016 10:21:44 »
I don't think you can myself
But I would like to, as it might be simpler :)
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Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #2380 on: 03/10/2016 10:22:57 »
And that goes for all scales, either we can ignore the observer, or we can't.
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Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #2381 on: 03/10/2016 10:24:21 »
not ignoring the observer is defining time to be real. Because that is what is used by it.
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Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #2382 on: 03/10/2016 10:29:10 »
It also means that 'constants' is as 'real' as you, although it doesn't prove those dreams, or nightmares, you might get from it :) And that has to do with how one prove something to exist inside physics, our definitions of what is provable.
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Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #2383 on: 03/10/2016 10:44:11 »

What then if we could shrink the observer and the observed into two 'grains', presuming there to be a discrete limit of observables (a limit of measurements)? A weird thought indeed, would time still be involved? As long as there is something able to interact I would expect it to exist. How about you?
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Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #2384 on: 03/10/2016 10:49:21 »
So do we need the 'observer' to be conscious for this? Is having a mind making a two way mirror experiment more real than when there is no conscious observer watching it? I don't think so, as long as the experiment is as equivalent (the setup etc) as it can be. Introduce a different set of measurements and you will get a different result generally speaking, but assuming that we let a camera record it or a human shouldn't matter, hopefully :)
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Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #2385 on: 03/10/2016 10:54:41 »
assume differently, and you've introduced what I would call magic, not logic. Now I think it was Heinlein saying that magic just is a 'future science', but I'm not sure I agree. If magic and science is equivalent I would go learn alchemy, starting today :)
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Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #2386 on: 03/10/2016 10:58:43 »
You're the one setting up the experiment, you're the one deciding what, and how, you will measure. There is no magic to finding different outcomes to it, depending on those circumstances. there is just a logic.
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Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #2387 on: 03/10/2016 11:03:17 »
From such reasoning I will assume that at some scale 'time' must exist for/in a whole SpaceTime, and 'minds' does not enter it at all. 'Observers' then should be whatever interacts. that's simplifying it, and I like simplifying :)
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Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #2388 on: 03/10/2016 11:31:50 »
You could also express it as reality is communication. Having a mind filtering, alternatively translating, this communication doesn't make it more or less correct. That I can't imagine how a chair perceive SpaceTime. unless we speak of it in terms of scales and interactions, doesn't make my own conscious interpretation of reality any more right, or wrong than what that chair experience. I have to assume that the physical laws that exist are the same for all observers.
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Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #2389 on: 03/10/2016 12:07:15 »
The way to prove this wrong would be to set up a experiment in where someones mind change a outcome by just wishing for it. that means several equivalent experiments in where one prove ones wishes coming true :) in a statistically significant manner. Don't expect to ever see that experiment myself.
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Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #2390 on: 03/10/2016 12:13:11 »
There is a slightly different version in where it on one tentacle is assumed that consciousness 'breaks wave-functions' into 'many worlds', no probability to it as all outcomes comes to be. On the other tentacle still assume it to be some sort of 'probability' defining to which 'world line', of all 'coexisting', you now will belong.

simple?
No
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Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #2391 on: 03/10/2016 17:01:36 »
Let's repeat my view. A 'observer' is everything, animate, inanimate, interacting. And that 'observations' goes on even when I'm asleep, or for that sake forgetting to look at the moon. And that those local observations craves a, just as local, arrow of time existing. When you then lift this to a global description you find 'time', as defined by relativity.
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Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #2392 on: 03/10/2016 17:05:15 »
Actually, assuming that probability disappear, isn't that predestination? doesn't matter which 'who' you happen to be, you're still predestined in that world. Or you have to come up with something really esoteric defining your free will.
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Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #2393 on: 03/10/2016 17:08:08 »
Something like that experiment I referred to possibly?
Then you at least have a chance to choose, without it nothing you ever will do will matter.
It's predestined you see :)
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Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #2394 on: 03/10/2016 17:17:51 »
for me its simple. I find uncertainty, probabilities, all of them offering a equivalence to the idea of free will. Then again, I don't try to reduce them into a world view in where every aspect is covered, as I understand many world theories to do. Instead I accept them on their face value. And you could also call it a matter of taste :) Without it it doesn't matter, nothing matters.
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Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #2395 on: 03/10/2016 17:31:05 »
But you can't take the conscious observer away from it. To me we're like the universe observing itself. That doesn't state that the universe must disappear if we disappear though, although local consciousness following its arrow of time, does.
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Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #2396 on: 03/10/2016 17:33:07 »
You might say that we're a necessary part of a SpaceTime, we guarantee its existence just by commenting on it.
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Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #2397 on: 03/10/2016 17:44:39 »
In a way a mirror to the idea of predestination. A universe without consciousness will still exist, but who will know about it? And a predestined reality may offer you a illusion of choices made, as in the idea of many worlds, where you can be both beggar and king simultaneously (well, more or less 'simultaneously', a quagmire to define here too, as always) dead, and alive. Or will you assume that you dying in one world puts an end to all other worlds of 'you' too?

But as no choices are left for you in the underlying assumption of a 'reality' where all paths are taken, your free will no longer exist.
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Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #2398 on: 03/10/2016 18:08:30 »
It's a quite interesting question actually.

In 'many worlds' your 'reality' bifurcates constantly, creating new 'universes' with every 'choice' you make. do those that you've created to the end of your life continue after your death then, or not? If you think it all falls apart you would be weighting reality, defining a priority to yourself, or what you think is 'yourself'. But giving a priority to just a part of that reality where all paths are taken and probability disappear is actually introducing probability again, isn't it? :) The probability of there only being one 'original you' that then also define the paths of every 'copy' you ever made, as soon as 'you' disappear.

Also, the idea of 'making choices' if all paths are there, does that really make sense to you? The alternative is then to assume that each one of us creates universes :) and that it all comes from a 'original' 'free will' of 'you'. eh, and 'me' too. eh yes, as well as 'you too' naturally .. ad bifurcation infinitum.

Create a bifurcating universe and you redefine probability to something already predestined. alternatively you introduce 'free will' as ones magic solution, but as probability still will be gone and with it uncertainty, as far as I can see?. where then will your equivalence be? You will be locked to redefine consciousness as the magic key to everything, and the moon must disappear for real as soon as you turn your head, and worst of all, you will still call it 'science' :)
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Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #2399 on: 03/10/2016 18:30:22 »
Emergences.

They exist, and they take us by surprise.
I think intelligence is a emergence too.

Why do they exist?
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