An essay in futility, too long to read :)

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Offline yor_on

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Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #950 on: 18/04/2013 13:53:19 »
And that one would be 'processes' interacting internally/externally with each other. But that one needs a reason too, doesn't it? Behind that is my 'arrow'.
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Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #951 on: 18/04/2013 13:59:35 »
My point here is that it is not enough with assuming processes. whatever creates a causality need a order imposed on it, and what imposes that order will be my arrow. I do not believe in something from nothing, although I have no problem accepting a 'limited truth' in where we find processes in some defined system to equal out, staying the same, under transformations.
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Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #952 on: 18/04/2013 14:01:12 »
Because that one has to do with what you define to be a universe. My universe is a local definition, yours will most probably be the result from 'frames of reference' interacting.
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Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #953 on: 18/04/2013 14:02:24 »
My universe is very much about defining constants.
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Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #954 on: 18/04/2013 14:06:01 »
locally unchanging, and there I define a arrow, 'c', uniform motion, and accelerations, so far. and I presume this to be the same for all local definitions, making those properties unchanging under time. Then you come to the mosaic those locally defined frames will present, with force carriers informing us about other frames. Because what regulates both the local definition, and the definition of a 'common universe' is 'c'.
=

Maybe you should exchange "making those properties unchanging under time" with 'time less', meaning that it won't matter what temporal definition you have for a acceleration to 'start'. It won't change its intrinsic properties from the next one, if you see how I think.
« Last Edit: 18/04/2013 14:09:39 by yor_on »
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Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #955 on: 18/04/2013 14:15:06 »
And locally there does not exist a motion, although there exist a acceleration. Because if we define relative motion to be a result of frames of reference, interacting. Then what we are left with are what we call uniform motion, equal to being 'still', locally measured. And how the he** do you expect yourself to measure anything, if not locally? It's from frames of reference we draw the conclusions about motion existing, and it is from comparisons we find light propagating. But locally defined any uniform motion, not accelerating that means, are equivalent to any other.

And that means 'being still' locally defined.
Prove me wrong..
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Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #956 on: 18/04/2013 14:20:03 »
And if you are using energies to define different (speeds) uniform motions, and observations from more than two objects, to prove it, you don't get me at all. This is strictly local definitions I use.
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Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #957 on: 18/04/2013 14:21:24 »
The point here is that it is easy to confuse one self. Uniform motion has confused me for years :)
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Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #958 on: 18/04/2013 14:27:53 »
And it's painfully obvious from this reasoning that we need fractal behaviors to define the 'common' universe, self like under a scale.
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Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #959 on: 18/04/2013 15:19:29 »
A symmetry break is not something out of nothing. A symmetry break is where you have 'emergences', and properties creating frames of reference.
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Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #960 on: 18/04/2013 15:23:08 »
And a symmetry break can exist as a locally defined 'reality' without needing to 'disappear' from where it came, temporally described. By that I presume that the arrow define processes, the processes defining what we observe, and are able to test. You can define it as a universe gets 'lifted out' but to me it's still belonging to a version without 'symmetry breaks'. Linear time defines what we see.
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Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #961 on: 18/04/2013 15:33:15 »
What would a temperature be from locality?
Light is dimension less, containing a 'energy'.
Space do not have a temperature, although we define it so, from dust etc.
Temperature is related to the arrow. If something 'jiggles' interacting, we find a temperature.

To get a temperature you need energy interacting with matter.
Does a locally defined Planck scale 'point' have a temperature?

What do you need to give it a temperature?
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Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #962 on: 18/04/2013 15:41:14 »
To define a temperature to 'space' is to define a temperature to a 'perfect vacuum'.
Logically you can ask yourself how you could change that temperature, finding you can't.
But that is what temperatures are about under a arrow, you can change them.

so no temperature at all, does that stop you observing. meaning that the arrow is a result from processes? That one is also a question about from where you define it. Defined from a point of perfect vacuum? Or defined from the observer, observing a point of perfect vacuum. Pick one, or both :)
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Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #963 on: 18/04/2013 15:43:22 »
Temperature defines symmetry breaks.
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Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #964 on: 18/04/2013 15:52:32 »
You might want to define such as complexity is what creates the order, interactions under some logic, defining and creating a arrow. That would be very wrong. Constants define, and create the arrow, using frames of reference to confuse us :) But temperature must be closely related to a arrow, and to complexity.
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Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #965 on: 18/04/2013 15:57:12 »
Can you see why we need to question 'motion'?
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Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #966 on: 18/04/2013 15:58:17 »
motion is a result from frames of reference. Accelerations are not
=

That one depend on your scaling naturally, so, presume we scale it down.
At what scale would you expect a acceleration (locally defined naturally) to become impossible?

You can also consider it this way, no matter how you define something accelerating, as a entity or as 'particles interacting although 'at rest', everything consisting of those particles must experience the acceleration, locally defined too.

So, where does this reasoning break down?
I would expect it to break down at the same scale where Physics break down.

Planck scale.
« Last Edit: 18/04/2013 16:08:41 by yor_on »
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Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #967 on: 18/04/2013 16:11:00 »
So, being at Planck scale, where is the symmetry break?
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Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #968 on: 18/04/2013 16:12:01 »
And what makes it macroscopically existing?
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Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #969 on: 18/04/2013 16:14:56 »
What was a 'speed' now again?

something 'moving' uniformly or not, under a arrow of time, all measurements of it strictly locally defined.
Would you agree to that?
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Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #970 on: 18/04/2013 16:17:08 »
It's not enough, you need 'frames of reference' too. That's what defines a 'distance'. Those frames you find defining what a distance is. Can you see why 'space' is so weird? A vacuum.
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Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #971 on: 18/04/2013 16:20:32 »
That one can be used as a argument for 'fields' too, possibly. But I still have to reason that one out in my mind :) Thought I had it defined, but, I'm not sure thinking some more of it.
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Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #972 on: 18/04/2013 16:23:00 »
Anyway, ignoring our definitions of distance, what we have is being still, or accelerating.
(locally defined)
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Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #973 on: 18/04/2013 16:25:09 »
And if you haven't got a headache by now, I'm sorry.
Tried my best :)
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Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #974 on: 18/04/2013 16:34:19 »
One more.

At Planck scale, assuming light to be a 'clock' as well as a constant, equal to a arrow. Does the arrow disappear?
does that mean that there is nothing existing under it? I prefer 'time less', as in losing that arrow, myself, but that doesn't mean it won't 'exist'. It exist now, under your feet :) just scale it down, simpler and simpler, as you get fewer and fewer possibilities (probabilities of) interacting, the 'shorter' your scale..

Or maybe turn that around, at Planck scale all exist, simultaneously, although not as defined outcomes.
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Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #975 on: 18/04/2013 16:50:35 »
And a acceleration, if it now is possible to assume that, as well as being still, to exist even at Planck scale? I'm not sure, I expect that to disappear as definitions there too, just as the arrow must do. To define it otherwise would need for me to define a acceleration as something 'time less' which I don't know how to do. Everything we define as in measure is to me connected to a arrow, also accelerations. It's the 'tube' containing processes, locally defined. But you can scale a acceleration down very far as I expect. although I'm not sure how far. That makes it, and uniform motion something that defines the universe, just as 'c' do. Because 'c' breaks down at Planck scale too.

You might want other things to be 'constants' but then we wander of in the wilderness, as if this isn't wild enough :)
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Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #976 on: 18/04/2013 16:57:14 »
And that one brings us back to 'distance'. Because if 'being still' and acceleration disappear at Plank scale, what are they macroscopically? And what the he* is a distance?
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Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #977 on: 18/04/2013 16:58:30 »
And yes :)
What is this 'motion'?

The universe can be put in my pocket, in my thinking :)
Crazy, ain't it.
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Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #978 on: 18/04/2013 17:32:25 »

From locality you have two, possibly three ways to define a entanglement.

1. It's a result of relations, defining the spin (hidden parameter), and that should put it under 'c', as the spin then is predefined, no matter if it is up or down in your first measurement.

2. It's a result of everything breaking down at Planck size, distance as well as all other definitions.

3. ? Need to think of that one, ahem, as in remember what I thought there.

Senility ahoy..

3.. Ahh, it was 1. but still outside  'c', I think?
=

nevermind, I will remember it, some day?
« Last Edit: 18/04/2013 17:34:39 by yor_on »
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Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #979 on: 18/04/2013 18:04:56 »
I did have a 3 but got sidetracked due to a visitor :)
Typical, isn't it. I can see why science don't allow visitors :)
I do though, life's just too short to lock yourself in.

get out and have some fun.
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Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #980 on: 18/04/2013 18:35:29 »
My universe is very much about defining constants.
This is a very important issue. Defining c involves the division of Planck Length: 1.616199(97)^-35 meters by Planck time: 5.39106(32)^-44 seconds. And it is also important to recognize that these Planck units can only be expressed digitally, meaning; there is nothing between individually distinct points of existence. This is where our measuring ability breaks down, we can't understand this progression of events as an analog, or a continuous evolvement of movement. At the Planck scale, no continuous movement or change from one discreet event to the next is possible. Taking this into account, even at the Macro level, events are only a combination of digital events, nothing can be considered as a continuous motion. Reality is only a cluster of associated discreet events.
"The more things change, the more they remain the same."

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Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #981 on: 18/04/2013 19:46:34 »
One thing more. If you're a girl, enjoy it. And never let anyone tell you that you can't understand physics. there's all sort of bs going round in the world, but Noether defined symmetries. And she was a girl in a much harder climate than you live in, so remember, if you have a idea, make it true. define it, it may take you some time. and the same goes for us all. I love the way we're set up. in girls and boys, and I have no problem with us being different, that's the spice making the world interesting. And if you're in between, don't despair, there's enough differences in the world for you too. We all have a place here, and we better have some fun, before it ends. Einstein may have defined the importance of symmetries, but he did not define it.

That was a girl
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Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #982 on: 18/04/2013 21:17:51 »
I don't know. I've done a lot in my life, and I expect it to end fairly soon. Physics is in a way a promise of your, and mine thoughts, having a importance for the future. Can you see what I mean? And we're all the same, it's all a question about education and what chances you got as you grew up. The best thing we can do in this world is to exchange thoughts, nothing more. Well :) There's love too, and that is what makes us safe. Without it we're alone.
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Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #983 on: 18/04/2013 21:32:15 »
And Ethos, I enjoy the way you act, a genuine gentleman :)
That's a thing to strive for.

Life is more than talking.
what defines you will be the way you act, when no one sees you.
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Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #984 on: 18/04/2013 21:42:56 »
And to make that true, you better try. Because it is when you think nobody looks that you will allow thing you otherwise wouldn't do. so make some standards, and keep to them. Don't be ashamed about it, and do not excuse yourself, instead try to explain, but don't 'back down'. There's too many backing down in this world. And it starts with the way you think, so try to educate yourself, and yeah, f* the world. Make it to your standard instead, expect no less.
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Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #985 on: 18/04/2013 21:59:39 »
I don't know. I've done a lot in my life, and I expect it to end fairly soon.
My friend,...........are you ill? I apologize if that question is being too personal but, ..........It would cause me much sadness if you are.
Quote from: yor_on
There's love too, and that is what makes us safe. Without it we're alone.
Absolutely, it really all boils down to the privilege to share with another mind. To know, without doubt, that another human being has joined with you in experience, to truly know the thoughts and hopes of another.

"The more things change, the more they remain the same."

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Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #986 on: 18/04/2013 22:08:28 »
thanks Ethos, but it's just life :)

And no, I'm talking about us all. Life is so much more than having the 'sharpest thoughts'. There's a whole field of compassion, emotions and understanding existing, not all going back to logic. We live and we want to be understood, and loved, all of us do but sometimes we never got the chance. So let us give each other a chance more. and let us talk.
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Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #987 on: 18/04/2013 22:51:32 »
Ah rereading myself. It wasn't directed to your post Ethos. It was me reasoning from my former post, it just coincided with your posting.  I agree with what you say about sharing thoughts and love, and also, it doesn't matter who. Life is weird, but quite fun if we allow each other to live.
=

The last part of my post I'm thinking of :)
I got to be the ultimate wizard of redefining posts I suspect :)
Still, it happened.
« Last Edit: 18/04/2013 22:57:24 by yor_on »
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Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #988 on: 18/04/2013 23:03:59 »
Sometimes I forget that I might need to reread what I write, as I get a reply at the same time as I'm posting. Reminds me of the importance of using the right punctuation. Placing that wrong may change your message too :) Don't worry Ethos :) You're a good guy, and I know it.
=

I will blame this on too many seagulls today :)
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Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #989 on: 19/04/2013 01:46:47 »
Strange isn't it. You think you're on a learning curve, getting your thoughts cleaner and clearer. Then you check your old posts and find that you already asked the same, but forgot all about it? What does that make it? To treat myself somewhat friendly I will assume I'm testing them over time, from all directions I can imagine :)

but I guess that's the way it works, you get your ideas while young, and they're more like intuitions than defined ideas. Then you grow older, and learn more, but the original ideas still exist somewhere in your head. and then you put a good part of your life developing them, not remembering that they was there even before. It's like a wheel of sorts, you come back to the same thing but from a different direction.

the wheel of life :)
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Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #990 on: 19/04/2013 14:08:48 »
The reason I started to write about this was time, once very long ago, long before getting a family etc I had this idea that SpaceTime must be like some game of cards, each one slightly out of phase with the next, the arrow becoming what joined it into a seamless reality. Then life came in between and I forgot all about it, until recently. So, me arguing is from a intuition, although my definitions have changed from a fractured reality, joined by a arrow, to a 'time less' one, the arrow becoming a expression from a symmetry break. And that one I think might be more correct. Then again, I don't know :) but who knows? Maybe we all find out.
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Offline yor_on

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Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #991 on: 19/04/2013 14:22:14 »
And if that is true I would say that we are the universe, seeing itself. Which is a rather weird thought, me being partial to such. Anyone remembering that Chinese tale about the guy in a prison cell, dreaming he was a butterfly. Waking up wondering if he was a man having dreamed about a butterfly, or a butterfly dreaming he was a man. Life is a game of trust, isn't it?
=

and my spelling leaves a lot to wish for.
« Last Edit: 19/04/2013 14:26:22 by yor_on »
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Offline yor_on

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Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #992 on: 19/04/2013 14:33:33 »
Then again, considering that I equal a arrow to 'c', making both into 'constants'. Maybe I was right in my intuition, although I didn't have the words for it then? You can think of it, from such a definition, as a 'fractured reality' joined by 'c', which indeed is the arrow. And on that one I won't back down.

'c' and the arrow are equal.
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Offline yor_on

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Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #993 on: 19/04/2013 14:41:13 »
The other one I won't back down on is the importance of scales. They are more important than one might think, at least to me they are. Because, questioning distance and time we need constants. And those I see are the local ones, those are the ones defining my reality. And as we go down in scale we get closer and closer to what I think is the expression of a universe, existing outside a symmetry break. And there we don't 'die', although we do it here. What that seems to mean to me is that there might be a chance for us all, to define and redefine ourselves.
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Offline yor_on

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Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #994 on: 19/04/2013 14:52:14 »
And yes, this is definitively philosophy :) Of a most meta physical kind too. But that's also why I mean when people sort themselves out as being 'saved', relative us lacking that vision. It all depends on how you define that quantum regime. And as I expect it to consist everything that was, is, and ever will be, simultaneously? I have a great faith in that. the only thing I'm doubting there is if 'I' will be the exact same. Because if we imagine ourselves becoming like that, where would our identity be? We would be it all, wouldn't we? So, maybe, :) (and most meta physically)  what we have is the universe asking itself how it exist, using linear time for testing a proposition.

Yep, the guys in white coats are waiting around the corner.
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Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #995 on: 19/04/2013 15:03:22 »
The point is that it won't matter how you define yourself, being a 'I'. You belong to the quantum regime too, although finding yourself separated from it, in thoughts, and in macroscopic observations and definitions. But it exist everywhere, there are no points in our universe separated from it, just use scaling it down. You and me are both living there, and will do so for ever, from a quantum definition.

And that is a faith, of sorts :)
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Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #996 on: 19/04/2013 15:11:09 »
And that's a question of what three(four) dimensional reality would be from such a point of view. Do you expect the inside of your body to be more separated from a quantum regime than outside. Or is it all the same from such a definition? I think it is all the same. What we define, relative, what is. No points are further away than any other points, if you see my thinking.
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Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #997 on: 19/04/2013 15:12:16 »
a symmetry break.
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Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #998 on: 19/04/2013 15:53:14 »
And yes, this is definitively philosophy :) Of a most meta physical kind too. But that's also why I mean when people sort themselves out as being 'saved', relative us lacking that vision. It all depends on how you define that quantum regime. And as I expect it to consist everything that was, is, and ever will be, simultaneously?
I happen to be one of those who has found a faith. But now, we need to define faith don't we. And also, referring back to the point I believe you were making, speaking about a universe looking, as it were, in the mirror at itself.

As conscious individuals, we assume that this awareness somehow belongs only to us. I tend to think that consciousness is related to quantum aspects of nature of which we are only beginning to understand. And these quantum interactions can, and in my opinion, are entangled with the space/time continuum. In simple talk, we are a small part of the universe and have no right, as only a part, to consider ourselves greater than the sum of it's parts.

So,..........as you may suspect by now, I believe in a universal consciousness. The question now becomes, what do we call this governing universal consciousness?

Everyone of us lives a life determined by our personal experiences. I for one, as a believer have had an experience which transcends my humanness. And it has utterly changed how I view reality. Even though I consider myself scientific, and seek evidence attached to reality, there comes a time when all of us, scientists included, are forced to believe in things we can't completely understand.

Quote from: yor_on

Yep, the guys in white coats are waiting around the corner.
Yes my friend, I see them waiting as well. But alas, if they take you away, I will be keeping you company.
"The more things change, the more they remain the same."

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Offline yor_on

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Re: An essay in futility, too long to read :)
« Reply #999 on: 19/04/2013 17:21:49 »
heh :)

Good on us both then Ethos.

Faith is a thing we all have as I think. We live on it, banks exist through it. Every time we go out to get something we have a trust into that what we buy is good. There is no way I see from a scientific point of view to 'know' before you used it up, if it really was 'good', or not? The best definitions we have will be statistics proving our buy to be 'better'.

Life is indeed a game of trust.
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