How is it possible that some people can see or predict the future?

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Offline echochartruse

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I have always wondered why it is possible that some can 'see' the future. Know the future, fortell the future. Mentally perceive it, even though it doesn't yet exist?

Some have an ability to see things to come, not just instances but buildings that have not been built or even thought of being built and yet they can describe the architecture and physical structure.

Some have the ability to predict accurately events that actually take place decades from the moment they are fortold even though they have nothing to do with the event apart from fortelling it.

How is it possible and yes it is possible.

Is there a scientific explanation for this? Are our lives mapped out entirely and are we doomed to follow a rigid life path that is already set out for each and everyone of us.

Can someone tell me how one can see what doesn't yet exist but does in the future (decades after being fortold) exactly as perceived by the minds eye by someone who has no influence on the event, landscape, people or anything?



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Offline neilep

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Hi echochartruse,

well, I had no idea ewe were going to ask this so unfortunately I can't help help ewe............except that to say that in certain conditions and within enough data certain predictions can be made based on past performance....but to the level that ewe describe...I personally am exceptionally sceptical.................in my opinion !
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Offline Karsten

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Before we look for a scientific explanation for something we should probably decide if this something is actually happening.

I have not seen or heard of conclusive evidence that predicting the future is possible or that individuals can reliably do it. Of course it is possible to "imagine" the future. And if you have many people imagining the future, some of those people are bound to be correct. But that is very different from a single person knowing what will be.

Some of the predictions are also phrased in ways that allow interpretations in many different directions. They are not precise, yet the person who likes to believe the prediction is true (or that predictions are possible) will declare them to be an exact match. Some things become true if you expect them to be true.

In addition, the predictions may actually influence or even cause the development of what was imagined or predicted. If you publish a prediction you cannot apply the scientific method very well. Certainly not blind testing.

And of course there are scientific predictions that can be very precise. Astronomers can predict lunar eclipses hundreds of years in advance for instance. That is more "calculating" than "predicting" though.

Billions of people imagine the future. A few imagined it correctly. That means to me that it does NOT work well at all.

It would be interesting to learn about conclusive evidence that shows I am wrong.
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Offline Bored chemist

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Before we spend time seeking an explanation you need to prove this assertion "How is it possible and yes it is possible."

You need to prove that the aparent instances of prediction are not just coincidence.

If you can do this I suggest that you go and collect a million dollars from here
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Randi_Educational_Foundation
then come and ask us about it.
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Offline LeeE

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I agree with Karsten that most premonitions are so vague and open to interpretation that they prove nothing.

However, I'm reminded of something I read (well before the internet/web age) in connection with the American Airlines (AA) DC-10 crash at Chicago O'Hare in 1979.  A person named David Booth had been having a recurring dream of an AA airliner crashing at O'Hare and eventually reported his fears to AA, who taking the premonition seriously, reported it to the U.S. Federal Aviation Authority (FAA).  Several meetings between Mr. Booth, AA and the FAA then occurred and both AA and the FAA considered Mr. Booth, who had no history of previous premonitions, to be sincere and not a crank.  However, one of the key features of his recurring dream was that the airliner rolled through >90 degrees, at a very low altitude, prior to crashing, which was problematic to both AA and the FAA as they could think of no reason for an airliner to have adopted this attitude at such low level, even if it was in difficulty.

In the end though, this was exactly what happened, as shown by the photograph at the top of the wikipedia article on the crash.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Airlines_Flight_191

In this case, the premonition seems to have been not only very accurate, but accurate in an unforeseeable way and unlikely to have been 'inspired' by other events.

It still doesn't prove anything, but it does show that some premonitions can have high degree of specific accuracy.
...And its claws are as big as cups, and for some reason it's got a tremendous fear of stamps! And Mrs Doyle was telling me it's got magnets on its tail, so if you're made out of metal it can attach itself to you! And instead of a mouth it's got four arses!

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Offline Karsten

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Really cool, this David Booth premonition story. From what I read none of his later predictions came true. This one about the airplane crash is strange and weird enough though. Makes you wonder how much is still out there to be discovered and explained. Of course is doesn't help a lot that there are thousands and thousands of fakers making spectacular predictions and cheating gullible people out of their money for every serious person who feels they had a real premonition and don't get noticed. And how do you treat this phenomenon (I have a hard time calling it that since there is only one recorded example) if it is not repeatable by individuals? Like a meteor strike. Getting struck by a meteor is maybe not a talent.
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Offline echochartruse

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I agree with Karsten that most premonitions are so vague and open to interpretation that they prove nothing.

True anyone can intemperate however they wish, there could be thousands of interpretations and therefore it is the person who for sees the prediction that can only honestly decide if something has happened as predicted.

Most of these future predictions are described as unrealistic, unlikely, out of the norm and that alone is a wonder.

However, I'm reminded of something I read (well before the internet/web age) in connection with the American Airlines (AA) DC-10 crash at Chicago O'Hare in 1979.  A person named David Booth had been having a recurring dream of an AA airliner crashing at O'Hare and eventually reported his fears to AA, who taking the premonition seriously, reported it to the U.S. Federal Aviation Authority (FAA).  Several meetings between Mr. Booth, AA and the FAA then occurred and both AA and the FAA considered Mr. Booth, who had no history of previous premonitions, to be sincere and not a crank.  However, one of the key features of his recurring dream was that the airliner rolled through >90 degrees, at a very low altitude, prior to crashing, which was problematic to both AA and the FAA as they could think of no reason for an airliner to have adopted this attitude at such low level, even if it was in difficulty.

In the end though, this was exactly what happened, as shown by the photograph at the top of the wikipedia article on the crash.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Airlines_Flight_191

In this case, the premonition seems to have been not only very accurate, but accurate in an unforeseeable way and unlikely to have been 'inspired' by other events.

It still doesn't prove anything, but it does show that some premonitions can have high degree of specific accuracy.

Some of the predictions are also phrased in ways that allow interpretations in many different directions. They are not precise, yet the person who likes to believe the prediction is true (or that predictions are possible) will declare them to be an exact match. Some things become true if you expect them to be true.

In addition, the predictions may actually influence or even cause the development of what was imagined or predicted. If you publish a prediction you cannot apply the scientific method very well. Certainly not blind testing.

I doubt very much that people are able to 'will' the future to happen, or maybe they can but in instances where people predict happenings out of their lifetime it leaves it open for other explanations.

Throughout history predictions have been made and have eventuated, predictions for a reason, not related to the for seer. Usually told by the person 'seeing' the future and not making sense or predicting unreal, impossibilities difficult for the interpretor to accept.

Yes their are others (fakes) who take advantage of some for money. I don't believe this is something that can be turned on and off at will and therefore it is very difficult to test, but YES it does happen and I really don't understand why some deny it.

Have you ever changed your mind about something, that is totally out of the ordinary, out of your personality, out of your schedule only later to find that your action without thought has saved you from some grave circumstance? I think this is some sort of form of prediction, (possibly for sceptics)who don't want to acknowledge they predicted their future.

Yes it does happen, who is blind enough to deny it. Maybe we can't scientifically prove it (yet) but there are too many instances recorded throughout history to think that someone who has a great imagination can imagine it to actually happen, unless your talking about the artist/forward thinker who creates a futuristic whatever that some scientist/engineer/inventor adapts at a later date to produce. I'm not talking about that.

There are people who can forsee the future in detail, who knows, we all may have this weird ability. It has been proven to me fist hand.

My question is, how/why can someone describe a building in a location exactly 20 yrs prior to someone even thinking about building it? How can they describe the building in detail including the materials used in construction, the internal passageways, the view from a specific window that involves other people outside the building? How can someone do this when they have never been to the location of the building, have nothing to do with its construction or the instance of the prediction and especially accurately predict it prior to the birth one of the people outside the window?

How can that happen?

there has been countless records of future predictions and some agencies and professional departments rely on them as weird as they first must sound to the interperator. They do happen but How?



« Last Edit: 04/10/2009 01:56:47 by echochartruse »
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Offline Don_1

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It is true that some premonitions become reality. It is also true that their interpretation is very much open to opinion.

In the case Lee described, I think the point to bear in mind is that Mr Booth probably had no idea of the 90o angle being so unlikely. So while I would not call his premonition into question, I would conclude that it was a 1 in a billion fluke.

With these dreams & premonitions, I would say forget counting how many come to fruition, and count, instead, how many do not. The problem is, nobody tells you that they had a dream that didn't come true.
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Offline Bored chemist

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"but YES it does happen and I really don't understand why some deny it."
Because there is a difference between you saying it happens and actually providing any evidence.

I realise that Don wasn't being quantitative when he said "I would conclude that it was a 1 in a billion fluke." but the point remains that with 6 billion people on the plannet we ouught to get half a dozen coincidences like that every day.
It's just a coincidence. Until you can come up with some reason to believe otherwise then we are not going to accept your word for it. We still won't believe it, even if you put "YES" in capital letters.


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Offline graham.d

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Millions of people try to predict the lottery result and quite a few people get it right from time to time. Are these people in any way remarkable in their ability? I think the answer is no.

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Offline echochartruse

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"but YES it does happen and I really don't understand why some deny it."
Because there is a difference between you saying it happens and actually providing any evidence.

the evidence is published daily and that is why such important people as the Queen of England, her family, Princess Dianna and many other well know public people engage others to predict their future. Even Princess Diana made a prediction and wrote in her diary about her accident that claimed her life.

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I realise that Don wasn't being quantitative when he said "I would conclude that it was a 1 in a billion fluke." but the point remains that with 6 billion people on the plannet we ought to get half a dozen coincidences like that every day.
It's just a coincidence. Until you can come up with some reason to believe otherwise then we are not going to accept your word for it. We still won't believe it, even if you put "YES" in capital letters.

Even if there was only 1 person in the entire world that had a future prediction that eventuated, such as the Booth incidence, you could not deny it can happen.

When you look around you see future predictions made by normal everyday people eventuating. These premonitions are usually based on the need to avoid dangerous or undesirable situations (not winning lotteries). I believe that the American FBI use clairvoyants but that is another story as the instance has already happened.

It is true that some premonitions become reality. It is also true that their interpretation is very much open to opinion.

In the case Lee described, I think the point to bear in mind is that Mr Booth probably had no idea of the 90o angle being so unlikely. So while I would not call his premonition into question, I would conclude that it was a 1 in a billion fluke.

With these dreams & premonitions, I would say forget counting how many come to fruition, and count, instead, how many do not. The problem is, nobody tells you that they had a dream that didn't come true.

I'm not talking about dreams or coincidence. Future predictions are not flukes. Otherwise Booth would have kept it to himself, thinking "its just another dream, I'm not going to mention it to anyone, they will not take me serious, if it eventuates they will just call it a fluke" I'm sure he had no personal gain out of acting on his premonition.

So if one person in the entire world had a future premonition that came true, you say we should ignore it!? - because we can't explain it?! - Don't want to think about it! - goes against religion? - or just pretend it was a fluke and nothing like it will ever happen again.

This must be the reason why some who forsee the future don't announce it. I'm sure there are billions who have had a future premonition and kept it to themselves no matter how small or how largely it would affect others in it's outcome of eventuating.

To the smallest such as baking a cake thinking that an unknown, unplanned guest would come without any prior clue to premonitions such as being able to describe exactly a situation decades before to the birth of one of the participants or construction of a building to major world threatening incidents, people who deny it have their head in the sand. It does happen.

How to prove it? That's up to the scientists.
Surely their must be some investigations into premonitions taking place in this decade.

What I want to know is how it is possible
. How did Booth forsee this accident in the future?
Not "is it possible?"

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Offline RD

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important people as the Queen of England, her family,
 Princess Dianna and many other well know public people engage others to predict their future

Their Royal highnesses did not obtain their positions of importance because of their intellectual ability.
They got the job because of who they were related to, (rather too closely related in some instances).

[There goes my chance of a Knighthood]


the American FBI use clairvoyants

American tax dollars would not be wasted on ridiculous paranormal nonsense, would they ?

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The Men Who Stare at Goats is a book by Jon Ronson about the U.S. Army's exploration of New Age concepts and the potential military applications of the paranormal. The title refers to attempts to kill goats by staring at them.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Men_Who_Stare_at_Goats

Or the physically impossible ?

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The Strategic Defense Initiative (SDI) was a proposal by U.S. President Ronald Reagan on March 23, 1983 to use ground and space-based systems to protect the United States from attack by strategic nuclear ballistic missiles ... The ambitious initiative was "widely criticized as being unrealistic, even unscientific" ... It was soon derided as Star Wars, after the popular 1977 film by George Lucas. In 1987 the American Physics Society concluded that a global shield such as "Star Wars" was not only impossible with existing technology, but that ten more years of research was needed to learn whether it might ever be feasible." Under the administration of President Bill Clinton in 1993, its name was changed to the Ballistic Missile Defense Organization (BMDO) and its emphasis was shifted from national missile defense to theater missile defense; and it scope from global to regional coverage.
 It was never truly developed or deployed
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strategic_Defense_Initiative

« Last Edit: 05/10/2009 06:57:20 by RD »

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Offline Bored chemist

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"the evidence is published daily and that is why such important people as the Queen of England, her family, Princess Dianna and many other well know public people engage others to predict their future. Even Princess Diana made a prediction and wrote in her diary about her accident that claimed her life."
Di might not have been the sharpest tool in the box, but even she would have done something about it if she really believed her life was in danger.
As it was, she was living dangerously anyway so it's no great shock that, among her silly choices was to get in a car with a pisssed driver and then not put on a seat belt.

With idiocy like that, a prediction of her death was like predicting that the sun would come up tomorrrow.

All the conspiracy theorists need to understand that data isn't the plural of anecdote.
Until you have some real data you should steer clear of science websites.
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Offline echochartruse

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RD, what tha....I think you are a little off track.

Until you have some real data you should steer clear of science websites.

Bored chemist are you telling me I'm not welcome on this site?
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Offline that mad man

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The Queen does not use psychics, Diana and Fergie did as they were into all that "new age" psychic stuff. Di's diary entries still remain private and strangely enough it was her psychic who released the information to promote her book.

In 2004 David Booth predicted an asteroid destroying part of the earth, it never happened. He is also one of these people who talks about "the end times" and quotes the Bible a lot. There are no transcripts of his talks to the FAA so most of it is now hearsay.

Quote from 2004; "Next week on October 13th will be the 87th year since the Holy Mother last warned this world about these times and the events that must occur shortly." He also links the end of the Mayan calendar to the end of the world so all this should be taken with a pinch of salt!

The FBI experimented with clairvoyants and also remote seeing/sensing but stopped doing so years ago when they found out it didn't work. The FBI documents released clearly state that fact and that it was a waste of time.

The reason why the SDI was not fully developed was because it had very little chance of working. Despite scientists advising him that it wouldn't work Regan was convinced that it would so lots of cash was spent on a failed idea. Some of the test footage of a laser strike on a missile was in fact faked by using wires to pull it apart, this has also been admitted. Clinton not only changed the name he also cancelled that program, although Space based research is still on the budget.

As they say on the X-Files, the truth is out there.


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Offline RD

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RD, what tha....I think you are a little off track.

Nope.
 You claim because British Royalty and the American government engaged in particular activities then they must be scientifically valid,
 my examples illustrate that that is not necessarily the case. 

« Last Edit: 05/10/2009 18:08:12 by RD »

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Offline Bored chemist

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RD, what tha....I think you are a little off track.

Until you have some real data you should steer clear of science websites.

Bored chemist are you telling me I'm not welcome on this site?

I'm inviting you to demonstrate that what you are saying is science; if it's not science then I (personally) don't think it should be on this site.
So far, though you have been asked repeatedly, you have yet to provide any real evidence.

Di's "clairvoiant's" attempts to sell her books are not science; nor are coincidences.
Putting things in CAPITAL LETTERS doesn't make them true either.

I said at the outset that, unless you can prove that there is anything but coincidence involved, there is no point trying to explain it.
I am still waiting for that proof.
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Offline echochartruse

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I came to this site with my question for science. Am I also to answer it as well?

I'm inviting you to demonstrate that what you are saying is science; if it's not science then I (personally) don't think it should be on this site.
So far, though you have been asked repeatedly, you have yet to provide any real evidence.

I am not a scientist.  Most of you show disbelief without investigation that premonitions do happen.

My apology to those who have never had some type of premonition at all or who know of another who has. Maybe my question should be... "why doesn't everyone have premonitions?"

therefore I am  forced to look at other publications and ask other scientists and in doing so I have found that, yes science is investigating 'premonitions' and this is some which I have found and feel I should share with you.

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Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-452833/Is-REALLY-proof-man-future.html#ixzz0T67PF1S5 
Professor Brian Josephson, a Nobel Prize-winning physicist from Cambridge University, says: "So far, the evidence seems compelling. What seems to be happening is that information is coming from the future.
"In fact, it's not clear in physics why you can't see the future. In physics, you certainly cannot completely rule out this effect."
.

I understand that it is difficult to test, but '
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"So far, the evidence seems compelling.

my question is "How is it possible"

So all I can say is if the scientific members of the world continue to bury their head in the sand about such things no wonder this subject is labeled 'paranormal'. paranormal adj. Beyond the range of normal experience or scientific explanation:.
It only takes one scientist to retrieve it from that category, I believe professor Brian Josephson has done that.

Is there anyone on this web site who can answer my question or direct me to find the answer?
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Offline RD

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I came to this site with my question for science. Am I also to answer it as well?

If you know the answer why ask the question ?

I understand that it is difficult to test

No it is easy to test: ask the morbid psychotic psychic to provide specific details about some future plane crash,
e.g. date and time of crash, or names of crew members or passengers.

If they can provide this type of specific information then they really can predict the future, or they've put a bomb on the plane, (the latter is more likely).
« Last Edit: 06/10/2009 00:02:25 by RD »


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Offline harryh11

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Or, He just made an incredibly lucky guess.
Only if he could repeat the level of accuracy a number of times would we then realise that premonitions may be true.

No one can see the future. (Most likely)

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Offline echochartruse

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If you know the answer why ask the question ?


RD - if you can't answer my question why do you reply?

We have established it is scientifically being tested but you seem to be stuck on the idea it has nothing to do with science.

Quote
‘Unless we accept [atoms’] reality, we can hardly explain the observable
phenomena. Nor can we explain that we can calculate with such great precision
how many atoms there are in a certain volume. [...] The very fact that the atomic
hypothesis finds empirical support in the many and distinct domains in which
atoms supposedly operate causally to generate real, observable phenomena gives
good reason to accept that atoms are real.
(Scientific Realism (London: Routledge,
1999), p.22)

Same here, Preminitions do happen, people all over the world have them every day.
"How is it possible????"
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Offline Karsten

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I am not a trained scientist, but...

You are asking for scientific evaluations and opinions on something that has not proven to work more than once (and billions of times did not). And even that one time is debatable (although quite interesting). At the moment we have not seen acceptable records for more than one occurrence.

You are in essence asking scientists to speculate about non-existent data. You just can't get a satisfactory answer from scientists because scientists base their answers on data. Without data there is nothing to talk about.

Supply the data and you will get an answer. Otherwise you will harvest disbelief. Skepticism is a natural state of mind for a scientist. You can't think scientifically about anything well if you don't distrust the data you have. Part of finding scientific truth is to not being able to proving something wrong. If you can't find evidence that it is not true, it must be true.  If you don't want skepticism, don't talk to scientists.

Maybe you would find more attentive listeners in a science fiction forum. People there might happily speculate about speculations. Or a spiritual/new age/paranormal forum. Some place where "facts" are accepted without demanding evidence.
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Offline Karsten

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(...) Premonitions do happen, people all over the world have them every day.

Says who? We agreed (more or less) that ONE person had ONE in 1978.

Maybe we should start with defining "premonition"? Explain to us what you think a "premonition" is. Maybe you think that simply having the thought that something might become true is already a premonition.
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Offline that mad man

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Can you name anyone else who has had a premonition come true and verified from the 6 billion + people living on the planet?








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Offline echochartruse

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I am not a trained scientist, but...

You are asking for scientific evaluations and opinions on something that has not proven to work more than once (and billions of times did not). And even that one time is debatable (although quite interesting).
EVEN IF ONE PERSON ONLY HAS THIS EXPERIENCE ONCE IN THEIR LIFE, (EVEN THOUGH THERE IS PROOF MANY HAVE AND SOME HAVE MORE THAN ONE EXPERIENCE PER LIFETIME) THEN THERE SHOULD BE A SCIENTIFIC EXPLAINATION FOR IT.

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At the moment we have not seen acceptable records for more than one occurrence.
SOMETHING MORE TO BE SCIENTIFICALLY EXPLAINED.

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You are in essence asking scientists to speculate about nonexistent data.
OBVIOUSLY YOU HAVE NOT RESEACHED THE SUBJECT OR READ MY LINKS.

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You just can't get a satisfactory answer from scientists because scientists base their answers on data. Without data there is nothing to talk about.


READ THIS PROFESSOR BRIAN JOSEPHSON HAS DATA YOU SEEK.
Quote
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-452833/Is-REALLY-proof-man-future.html#ixzz0T67PF1S5
Professor Brian Josephson, a Nobel Prize-winning physicist from Cambridge University, says: "So far, the evidence seems compelling. What seems to be happening is that information is coming from the future.
"In fact, it's not clear in physics why you can't see the future. In physics, you certainly cannot completely rule out this effect."

Quote
Supply the data and you will get an answer. Otherwise you will harvest disbelief. Skepticism is a natural state of mind for a scientist. You can't think scientifically about anything well if you don't distrust the data you have. Part of finding scientific truth is to not being able to proving something wrong. If you can't find evidence that it is not true, it must be true.  If you don't want skepticism, don't talk to scientists.

YOU SHOULD DEFINATELY READ THIS -
http://docs.google.com/gview?a=v&q=cache:YRaXDYO2hm0J:users.ox.ac.uk/~shil0124/papers/parapsychology.pdf+scientific+research+into+premonisions+premonitions&hl=en&gl=au&sig=AFQjCNHt2ja-3co-E1FsDrp83B252tJBuA

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Maybe you would find more attentive listeners in a science fiction forum. People there might happily speculate about speculations. Or a spiritual/new age/paranormal forum. Some place where "facts" are accepted without demanding evidence.

AS YOU SAID YOU ARE NOT A SCIENTIST.
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Offline echochartruse

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Can you name anyone else who has had a premonition come true and verified from the 6 billion + people living on the planet?

YOU ALSO HAVE NOT BOTHERED TO READ THE LINKS I POSTED.

HERE ARE A FEW MORE
[Abraham Lincoln had a very vivid premonition of his death. Ten days before he was assassinated he dreamt he was in the East Wing of the White House where people were mourning. When he asked a soldier who had died, he was told "The President"]

[The novelist Mark Twain predicted that Halley's Comet would be seen on the day of his death, just as it was when he was born. Twain died on Halley's 1910 appearance on April 20]
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Offline RD

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Abraham Lincoln had a very vivid premonition of his death. Ten days before he was assassinated he dreamt he was in the East Wing of the White House where people were mourning. When he asked a soldier who had died, he was told "The President"

He had assassination threats even before he was inaugurated, so if he did have dreams about his assassination they are understandable nightmares as a consequence of past events, but not premonitions of the future ...

Quote
President-elect Lincoln survived the alleged assassination attempt in Baltimore, Maryland. On February 23, 1861, he arrived secretly in Washington, D.C. But for the remainder of his presidency Lincoln's many critics would hound him for the seemingly cowardly act of sneaking through Baltimore at night, in disguise, sacrificing his honor for his personal safety. However, the efforts at security may well have been prudent.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baltimore_Plot
« Last Edit: 06/10/2009 03:32:09 by RD »

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Offline echochartruse

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Titanic carried only fifty eight percent of her passenger load on her doomed maiden voyage, and some passengers had even canceled their tickets.[6] There are also many stories of people who survived the September 11, 2001 attack on the World Trade Center in New York City due to not having arrived in their office on time that day, as well as numerous accounts of premonitions of the event.[7]
After a Welsh coal mining accident in 1966 killed 116 children and 28 adults, surveys taken after the tragedy showed a great number of people who claimed to have had premonitions, dreams, or visions of the tragedy before it happened. Shortly afterwards, in 1967, British psychiatrist Barker established the British Premonitions Bureau, in the hope that the collection of any and all precognitive experiences might aid in preventing future tragedies. A year later, a similar organization, the Central Premonitions Registry, was formed in New York. Both collected large numbers of premonitions from the general populace. The collection of premonitions to avoid disaster proved to be impractical, however, and both institutions were gradually shut down.[8]
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Offline echochartruse

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He had assassination threats even before he was inaugurated, so if he did had dreams about his assassination they are understandable nightmares as a consequence of past events, but not premonitions of the future ...
Quote
President-elect Lincoln survived the alleged assassination attempt in Baltimore, Maryland. On February 23, 1861, he arrived secretly in Washington, D.C. But for the remainder of his presidency Lincoln's many critics would hound him for the seemingly cowardly act of sneaking through Baltimore at night, in disguise, sacrificing his honor for his personal safety. However, the efforts at security may well have been prudent.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baltimore_Plot

yes we all try to avoid death.

There are countless preminisions of peoples own death recorded.

Death is sure its the way we go thats different.
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Offline echochartruse

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People do have premonitions that eventuate. there is no doubt about it. just because a single person doesn't have 2 premonitions doesn't mean it doesn't happen, just because it is difficult to test doesn't mean it doesn't happen, just because a division is shut down due to lack of funds or the inability to induce a preminition on demand doesn't mean it is not worthy of scientific investigations.

Science has even given this study its own division - parapsychology so we can say that other/some scientists think it is worthy of investigating.

If it only happened once in the earths lifetime, I would still want to know 'How can someone see the future'
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Offline echochartruse

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by the way

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The collection of premonitions to avoid disaster proved to be impractical, however, and both institutions were gradually shut down.


preminitions = future happening, if you could avoid them it wouldn't be a preminition, would it.
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Offline RD

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People do have premonitions that eventuate. there is no doubt about it.

You may have no doubt about it but you have still to present an example which proves premonition has occurred.

just because it is difficult to test doesn't mean it doesn't happen

see ... http://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?topic=25979.msg278336#msg278336

...induce a preminition on demand

I never suggested that, just that whenever the psychic feels like making a prediction it has plenty of specific details which could not be estimated from past events, e.g. Mark Twain, 73 and in failing health, correctly estimating his month of death, a few months hence.
« Last Edit: 06/10/2009 04:27:29 by RD »

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Offline echochartruse

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The novelist Mark Twain predicted that Halley's Comet would be seen on the day of his death, just as it was when he was born. Twain died on Halley's 1910 appearance on April 20 - not just 'correctly estimated his month of death' as you state.

London’s Daily Mail reports on a Dutch professor of psychology, Dr. Dick Bierman, wants to quantify such presentiments, following up on a revealing experiment done by Dr Dean Radin, a former researcher on the military project Stargate, which looked into the phenomenon of ‘remote viewing’ and psychic premonition. Radin hooked ordinary subjects to a lie detector in order to measure changes in galvanic skin response. He then flashed at random a series of photos, some of which were violent or erotic. One would expect galvanic skin response to spike when such pictures appeared, but Radin discovered a strange phenomenon. Subjects tended to respond a few seconds in advance of the actual image flashing on the screen. In other words, they sensed an event before it occurred.
Subsequently the experiment was successfully replicated, startling even a Nobel Prize winner who acted as a subject. Dr. Bierman in Amsterdam is verifying that specific brain areas light up when presentiment occurs. He is certain that the phenomenon is real; now he wants to determine if certain people are more gifted at presentiment than others. This is the best glimpse to date that anyone has had of the mind field’s existence as an everyday affair, for it would appear that to some extent all of us have experienced hunches, intuitive flashes, sudden premonitions, and other hints of foreknowledge. How far does this phenomenon extend, and what is its deeper significance?

and in case you didn't read my post.........

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-452833/Is-REALLY-proof-man-future.html#ixzz0T67PF1S5
Professor Brian Josephson, a Nobel Prize-winning physicist from Cambridge University, says: "So far, the evidence seems compelling. What seems to be happening is that information is coming from the future.
"In fact, it's not clear in physics why you can't see the future. In physics, you certainly cannot completely rule out this effect."

so you will just have to accept the EVIDENCE



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It boils down to some people wanting to believe in premonitions.  You want science to put its seal of approval on premonitions, but it can't -- and it can't tell you "how" people have premonitions that come true except to say that it's merely by chance.  You have not commented on any scientific facts that I presented to you.  I am a trained scientist.  I worked in the field predicting failures.

so you say the Nobel Prize winner is wrong?

Quote
You want science to put its seal of approval on premonitions, but it can't -- and it can't tell you "how" people have premonitions that come true except to say that it's merely by chance.

Just because science or the scientist can't prove it doesn't mean it isn't true, I read that in a science journal.either such phenomena are held to be essentially beyond scientific explanation (in which case parapsychology has to relinquish its scientific status), or paranormal just means not presently accepted by non-parapsychological science’. When the closed minds belong to philosophers and scientists – It is a shameful fact.

So now you are telling me that among so many people who ever thought that they had a premonition including Booth just had a good imagination, a coincidence of imagery, a powerful understanding of past events. Even though Booth in his 'coincidence' knew nothing of aircraft, plucked '90 degrees' out of the air by coincidence and just had to stake his reputation on telling someone important about his 'fluke idea'.... GARBAGE!#

I don't know what someone does in the field of 'predicting failures' but think when you once worked there premonitions could/should have played an important part, but I would imagine that you used a more calculated approach. As you speak I cant imagine you closing your eyes and predicting anything, tell me about your process

{PREDICTING, I think that is something other than premonition, something more calculated taking into account past proceedures, mathematics, graphs, blah blah blah. where PREMONITION is 'forseen' without calculations, graphs, maths etc.}

yes, yes I agree there are so many trying to make money out of this sort of thing.
it's the ones who don't I think would be more genuine, the ones compelled to announce it even if it meant ridicule and as one Nobel Prize winning scientist said...the evidence seems compelling. People are able to see the future.

As you said SCIENCE can't tell me 'HOW' seeing the future can happen, but please dont deny it happens, or try to hide it under coincidence, fluke, imagination, understanding of the past, that is what is GARBAGE.

Quote
And that means that, if the experimenter ever gets round to trying to explain what’s going on or how it’s happening – rather than merely establishing for the umpteenth time that there’s something to be explained – she’ll
be working in the shadow of a significant begged question.

So I am sure we all agree Premonitions do occure. My question is how

and it is apparent that no scientist can tell me, at this stage in time anyway.




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Offline BenV

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Supply the data and you will get an answer. Otherwise you will harvest disbelief. Skepticism is a natural state of mind for a scientist. You can't think scientifically about anything well if you don't distrust the data you have. Part of finding scientific truth is to not being able to proving something wrong. If you can't find evidence that it is not true, it must be true.  If you don't want skepticism, don't talk to scientists.


Where did that quote come from?

I disagree with this bit:
Quote
If you can't find evidence that it is not true, it must be true.
Surely that should say "If you can't find evidence that it is not true, then you cannot say that it is not true."  It's nonsense to say it must be true.


Also - I haven't read through this entire thread, but has somebody mentioned reporter bias?  We all have premonitions all the time - it's part and parcel of having an imagination - but only when they come true do people pipe up and claim there's something magical going on.  Pretty much every flight, bus or train journey I've ever been on, there's a point where my brain spins through what could happen, and what I should do about it.  Should I one day be on a train that crashes, it's therefore quite likely that I will have thought about it crashing before it does - Does this mean I had a premonition about the crash?  No.
« Last Edit: 06/10/2009 10:22:38 by BenV »

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Offline Madidus_Scientia

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So I am sure we all agree Premonitions do occure. My question is how

Even though you used capital letters to insist they occur, I'm pretty sure we don't all agree that premonitions occur. First it must be proved that they do occur, then an explanation is required. No explanation is required for something that doesn't occur.

It has, however, been explained why people think premonitions occur, or why it seems like an event was predicted through supernatural means.

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Quote
Supply the data and you will get an answer. Otherwise you will harvest disbelief. Skepticism is a natural state of mind for a scientist. You can't think scientifically about anything well if you don't distrust the data you have. Part of finding scientific truth is to not being able to proving something wrong. If you can't find evidence that it is not true, it must be true.  If you don't want skepticism, don't talk to scientists.

Where did that quote come from?
[/quote]


That was me. Why?
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I disagree with this bit:
Quote
If you can't find evidence that it is not true, it must be true.
Surely that should say "If you can't find evidence that it is not true, then you cannot say that it is not true."  It's nonsense to say it must be true.  I'm in full agreement with the rest, though.
« Last Edit: 06/10/2009 13:49:11 by BenV »

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Offline that mad man

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Can you name anyone else who has had a premonition come true and verified from the 6 billion + people living on the planet?

YOU ALSO HAVE NOT BOTHERED TO READ THE LINKS I POSTED.


Sorry but you are very wrong. I have read the links(some I already knew about)otherwise I would not have commented on them or given additional information. We need verification to corroborate these "strange" events otherwise its just a few chance happenings out of the 6 billion + people.

Dick Bierman has conducted only 2 tests each with 20 subjects, so until a proper controlled blind experiment is carried out the data is suspect. Also having people chose to take part when they know what the experiment is about beforehand will also taint any results.

To back up what DiscoverDave said the Edinburgh experiments allegedly showed that females tend to exhibit greater environmental sensitivity. Unfortunately it overlaps between environmental sensitivity and certain physical conditions. Its also linked with depression, more prevalent in women (with symptoms getting worse during menstruation) and also genetic predispositions. Its probably one of the reasons why the majority of psychics tend to be females as most believe they are closer to mother nature. Given that, one would expect a greater amount of female premonitions than males and so far its been just a few males and some dodgy anecdotal evidence.

http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/1m-challenge.html

I notice Both never applied!

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Offline RD

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The novelist Mark Twain predicted that Halley's Comet would be seen on the day of his death, just as it was when he was born. Twain died on Halley's 1910 appearance on April 20 - not just 'correctly estimated his month of death' as you state.

Halley's comet is visible to the naked eye for a about a month (assuming clear skies),
 if you use a telescope it is visible for months / years, depending on power of the telescope.

Re: predictions related to astronomical objects...

[attachment=10131]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peekskill_Meteorite

If a psychic could predict the number plate of this car hit by a meteorite, that would be strong evidence of prognostication. That's the level of specific detail which would be required to prove someone could see into the future.

[I'd love to see the insurance claim form for the totalled Chevvy]
« Last Edit: 06/10/2009 20:10:26 by RD »

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"There have always been the debunker's and strict disbelievers dedicated to dismissing it all without so much as a glance at the  data."

FOR THOSE WHO CONTINUALLY IGNORE MY POSTS AND CONTINUE ON ABOUT PROOF, I HAVE QUOTED A PORTION OF THE EXERPT THAT I LINKED TO IN THE BEGINING OF THIS POST TO SHOW YOU THAT SCIENTIFIC EXPERIEMENTS HAD BEEN CONDUCTED (THEREFORE IT MUST BE A SCIENCE IN ITS OWN RIGHT).

DUE TO THE FACT THAT THIS IS LENGTHY I WILL LEAVE IT UP TO YOU TO FOLLOW THE LINK AND READ ALL OF IT, BUT PLEASE DON’T ASK AGAIN FOR PROOF.

Quote
Do some of us avoid tragedy by foreseeing it? Some scientists now believe that the brain really CAN predict events before they happen
Professor Dick Bierman sits hunched over his computer in a darkened room. The gentle whirring of machinery can be heard faintly in the background.
He smiles and presses a grubby-looking red button.
In the next room, a patient slips slowly inside a hospital brain scanner. If it wasn't for the strange smiles and grimaces that flicker across the woman's face, you could be forgiven for thinking this was just a normal health check.
But this scanner is engaged in one of the most profound paranormal experiments of all time, one that may well prove whether or not it is possible to predict the future.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-452833/Is-REALLY-proof-man-future.html#ixzz0TAx2Kl

The skeptics, however, say the data do not sway them.

Since my question could not be answered here but others are raised i have had to search elsewhere for information as all I seem to get here is sceptisism, some rediculous non scientific answers and no relevant information.

Yet again, the illogic used by people who believe in premonitions focuses on the one Nobelist and not on the legions of other scientists.

Here are a few more scientists, I so easily found, who have investigated scientifically premonitions and the likes and also agree through the results of their experiements that premonition does take place. I was able to find these in 10 minutes and I would imagine being a scientist would give you knowledge of where to find more.

Dr Jessica Utts, a statistician at the University of California,
The scientist Ed Cox
Researcher Dean Radin, director at the Institute of Noetic Sciences
The Rhine Research Center compiles files of premonition.
Dr Kary Mullis, a Nobel Prizewinning chemist,
Nobel Prizewinning physicist Brian Josephson.
Professor Bierman, a psychologist at the University of Amsterdam.
Other researchers from around the world, from Edinburgh University to Cornell in the US,
For many years the US military (and latterly the CIA)

I would imagine those to be just a few of so many more I have yet to discover.

I find it humorous that people, scientists here, only rely on the information I provide to state their case and neglect years of scientific investigation.

[qoute Read more: http://psychic-abilities.suite101.com/article.cfm
/psychic_phenomena_and_the_power_of_premonitions#ixzz0TB2WtnZU]

Modern quantum physics research is adding support to the possibilities that premonitions and other psychic powers are not only possible but conform to new understandings of physics.

As scientists conduct large and rigidly controlled experiments, they continue to accumulate evidence of the validity of premonitions, [/quote]

Read more: http://psychic-abilities.suite101.com/article.cfm
/psychic_phenomena_and_the_power_of_premonitions#ixzz0TB2WtnZU

"continue to accumulate evidence" a science evolving!

Quote
Around 1992, the German mathematician discovered what he called the quantum hologram. In essentially it explores  4 basic quantum processes. Entanglement, coherence/quantum correlation and the 2

I find especially relevant regarding paranormal events: nonlocality and interconnectedness. Nonlinear and nonlocality by themselves alter our view of space, time and reality and reflect on pre/retrocognition and premonitions as well as that more common experience of deja vu.in Under a nonlocal, multiuniverse concept,
2 or more  events can be happening simultaneously which we are unconsciously tapping into to or we may be remembering something that has not yet happened to us which is the definition of retrocognition.

Marie D.Jones who stated that: "We know at the quantum level [time] is not linear and that the past,present and future all exist at one.For every now we experience, a positive wave flows into the future and a negative wave flows into the past.not unlike the ripple effect created by dropping a pebble into the water". This certainly has implications on telepathy, pre/retrocognition, premonitions and our everyday lives in general.

And for the naysayers of the paranormal, it is always important to maintain a dose of healthy skepticism but remember that the absence of proof is not the proof of absence.

http://knol.google.com/k/k-molto-phd/physics-and-the-paranormal/12dcvs1lr1twq/8#

retrocognition love that word, it takes 'premonition' out of the paranormal and into science, at least for me.

Quote
As scientists conduct large and rigidly controlled experiments, they continue to accumulate evidence of the validity of premonitions,

Scientists recognize that natural laws must conform to observed evidence. When new evidence appears to violate previous understandings of natural laws, either the evidence is faulty or the laws are insufficient.

Read more: http://psychic-abilities.suite101.com/article.cfm/psychic_phenomena_and_the_power_of_premonitions#ixzz0TB2v5gZO

When science can't explain such things as 'premonitions'and others it is so easy for people to gathers these unexplained situations into a religion or belief. Science has now taken 'premonition' and called it 'pre/retrocognition' in the attempt to take it away from the paranormal and into science.

There is no doubt about it, premonition or pre/precognition does happen, as I cant imagine all the scients involved in these experiements wasting their time and money continulally, if it didn't.

          as stated:- "science just haven't yet established the mechanism allowing it to happen."

Eleven words that clearly answer my question.






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Offline echochartruse

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Sorry but you are very wrong.

To back up what DiscoverDave said the Edinburgh experiments allegedly showed that females tend to exhibit greater environmental sensitivity. Unfortunately it overlaps between environmental sensitivity and certain physical conditions. Its also linked with depression, more prevalent in women (with symptoms getting worse during menstruation) and also genetic predispositions. Its probably one of the reasons why the majority of psychics tend to be females as most believe they are closer to mother nature. Given that, one would expect a greater amount of female premonitions than males and so far its been just a few males and some dodgy anecdotal evidence.

http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/1m-challenge.html

I notice Both never applied!


do ya think men might not want to speak about their experiences?

Can you prove premonitions don't happen?
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Offline echochartruse

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And I’ll leave you with this — My own experiences with this subject is that, by and far, people who believe in premonitions and telepathy are female.  Here’s a scientific guess: Are you female?

Out of the scientist I found in the first 10 mins of looking most are male.

Did you just sumised or was it calculated and what evidence do you supply?
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Offline RD

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Can you prove premonitions don't happen?

Quote
The argument from ignorance, also known as argumentum ad ignorantiam ("appeal to ignorance" ), argument by lack of imagination, or negative evidence, is a logical fallacy in which it is claimed that a premise is true only because it has not been proven false, or is false only because it has not been proven true.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_ignorance

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Offline Karsten

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BTW, is it still a premonition if it the predicted even does not happen? Say, someone has a premonition (or thinks they do) and it points towards disaster. All efforts are put forward to prevent the disaster and the disaster never occurs. Is it still a premonition? Or can it only be a premonition if what was predicted happens no matter what is done to prevent it from happening? How can you predict the future if the future can be changed/influenced? Or maybe it can't?

Can you tell someone about your premonition since telling would influence those you tell and therefor possibly change the future and limit (or increase) the chances for your premonition to occur?  But if you are super-secretive about it, it is not officially recorded.

We need a Premonition Recording Department! Somewhere were people can send in their detailed premonitions in form of a sealed, real letter, the date of receipt is recorded, the "premonitioner" is required to submit a date on which the predicted event is to have happened and the letter to be opened the day after. That will get things going. There should be a fee for this service. Otherwise there will be hundreds (if not hundred thousands) of premonitions that cannot be taken seriously.

Nonetheless, ideally premonitions are to occur in total solitude in a controlled environment. Otherwise we risk the problem described in paragraph 2 above. Maybe people should apply to spend some time at the Premonition Recording Department where they would receive a room and board to "premonish" in peace and solitude. That would increase the entry fee of course.
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Offline Karsten

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Can you prove premonitions don't happen?

Can you prove Santa Claus or the Tooth Fairy don't exist? Good luck with that approach to science!
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Offline Karsten

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I disagree with this bit:
Quote
If you can't find evidence that it is not true, it must be true.
Surely that should say "If you can't find evidence that it is not true, then you cannot say that it is not true."  It's nonsense to say it must be true.  I'm in full agreement with the rest, though.

I guess what I wanted to say is that...
If a scientific theory can be proven to not work sometimes, the theory needs to be reworked since (as it is written) it is not true under all circumstances. Or the other way around, if no one can prove my theory to not work, it must be a good theory and true at least until we know better. Not right? 
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Offline RD

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We need a Premonition Recording Department!

Echochartruse did mention this had been tried, and abandoned …

... British psychiatrist Barker established the British Premonitions Bureau, in the hope that the collection of any and all precognitive experiences might aid in preventing future tragedies. A year later, a similar organization, the Central Premonitions Registry, was formed in New York. Both collected large numbers of premonitions from the general populace.  The collection of premonitions to avoid disaster proved to be impractical, however, and both institutions were gradually shut down.

[Shooting youself in the foot there Echochartruse].

This concept exists on the internet e.g. ... http://www.prophecies.us/
« Last Edit: 06/10/2009 21:27:01 by RD »

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Offline echochartruse

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Can you prove premonitions don't happen?

Quote
The argument from ignorance, also known as argumentum ad ignorantiam ("appeal to ignorance" ), argument by lack of imagination, or negative evidence, is a logical fallacy in which it is claimed that a premise is true only because it has not been proven false, or is false only because it has not been proven true.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_ignorance

stupid statement, what relevance?

if you get hit in the head with a bat is it only true if you scientifically investigate the options with multiple groups, of differnet sex, at different times of the day, etc ,etc...

If only one person ever had a premonition that eventuated in the records of the entire earth's life, can you still deny it happened?

Some people's lives evolve around negativity they are so happy to live their lives in denial.
These people probably think the 2 negatives make it OK

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