What is the minimum mass required to distort space and time ?

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Kiran The King Kai

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Hi Naked scientist !

What is the minimum mass required to distort space and time ?

According to Einstein's General theory of relativity .
Mass distorts Space and Time.
Well Quantum Physics does not satisfy with General theory of relativity.

So, it asks a Question does G exist in quantum size world ?
well ,

My question is that .....

"What is the minimum mass required to distort space and time ?"



I mean Does asteroid can distort space and Time ?

Does big comet can distort space and time ? 

Does astronaut can distort Space and time ?

I mean What is the minimum MASS limit to distort Space and time ?

I call it "Einstein space time distortion limit !"

« Last Edit: 20/10/2009 13:38:07 by Kiran The King Kai »

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Offline Pmb

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What is the minimum mass required to distort space and time ?
« Reply #1 on: 20/10/2009 13:49:35 »
Quote from: Kiran The King Kai
What is the minimum mass required to distort space and time ?
Any amount of mass will destort spacetime to some extent. A single subatomic particle can do that. It just destorts it by an extremely small amount.
Quote from: Kiran The King Kai
According to Einstein's General theory of relativity .
Mass distorts Space and Time.
Well Quantum Physics does not satisfy with General theory of relativity.
Not as currently known. It is assumed that a quantum theory of gravity will exist someday.

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Kiran The King Kai

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What is the minimum mass required to distort space and time ?
« Reply #2 on: 20/10/2009 14:00:28 »
Quote from: Kiran The King Kai
What is the minimum mass required to distort space and time ?
Any amount of mass will destort spacetime to some extent. A single subatomic particle can do that. It just destorts it by an extremely small amount.
Quote from: Kiran The King Kai
According to Einstein's General theory of relativity .
Mass distorts Space and Time.
Well Quantum Physics does not satisfy with General theory of relativity.
Not as currently known. It is assumed that a quantum theory of gravity will exist someday.
If single sub atomic particle can distort ...
Why they still argue about Quantum gravity in string theory ? 

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Kiran The King Kai

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What is the minimum mass required to distort space and time ?
« Reply #3 on: 20/10/2009 14:06:45 »
(Any amount of mass will destort spacetime to some extent. A single subatomic particle can do that. It just destorts it by an extremely small amount.)

Well as you ... Small amount of mass as Sub atomic particles ..
it sounds good but is there any proof!.....
?? is there any ?

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Offline Pmb

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What is the minimum mass required to distort space and time ?
« Reply #4 on: 20/10/2009 14:15:18 »
(Any amount of mass will destort spacetime to some extent. A single subatomic particle can do that. It just destorts it by an extremely small amount.)

Well as you ... Small amount of mass as Sub atomic particles ..
it sounds good but is there any proof!.....
?? is there any ?

If you're asking if there is any experimental evidence that an elecctron has a gravitational field then I can't think of any. But it's universally accepted by physicists that it does.

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Offline that mad man

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What is the minimum mass required to distort space and time ?
« Reply #5 on: 20/10/2009 14:17:31 »
I believe the GPS satellite atomic clocks have to be adjusted every day to take into account the drift caused by the distortion in space time.


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Kiran The King Kai

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What is the minimum mass required to distort space and time ?
« Reply #6 on: 20/10/2009 14:58:52 »
I believe the GPS satellite atomic clocks have to be adjusted every day to take into account the drift caused by the distortion in space time.


Well are you talking about relative velocities of Special Theory of relativity ?
GPS is effected by Velocities they move ....

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Offline Mr. Scientist

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What is the minimum mass required to distort space and time ?
« Reply #7 on: 21/10/2009 00:54:23 »
Hi Naked scientist !

What is the minimum mass required to distort space and time ?

According to Einstein's General theory of relativity .
Mass distorts Space and Time.
Well Quantum Physics does not satisfy with General theory of relativity.

So, it asks a Question does G exist in quantum size world ?
well ,

My question is that .....

"What is the minimum mass required to distort space and time ?"



I mean Does asteroid can distort space and Time ?

Does big comet can distort space and time ? 

Does astronaut can distort Space and time ?

I mean What is the minimum MASS limit to distort Space and time ?

I call it "Einstein space time distortion limit !"



A single quanta is a flutuation and distortion in itself, so a photon suffices to warp spacetime.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SZGcNx8nV8U

''God could not have had much time on His hands when he formed the Planck Lengths.''

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Kiran The King Kai

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What is the minimum mass required to distort space and time ?
« Reply #8 on: 21/10/2009 09:11:51 »
Mr.scientist thanks for your reply ...
Your statements might have solved the ........

"Unification problem in String theory"

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Offline Mr. Scientist

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What is the minimum mass required to distort space and time ?
« Reply #9 on: 21/10/2009 09:17:10 »
Oh string theory is not my cup of tea. The math is really quite difficult.
But, worth the dream of it :)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SZGcNx8nV8U

''God could not have had much time on His hands when he formed the Planck Lengths.''

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Kiran The King Kai

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What is the minimum mass required to distort space and time ?
« Reply #10 on: 21/10/2009 09:31:11 »
Oh string theory is not my cup of tea. The math is really quite difficult.
But, worth the dream of it :)
Why still Physicist struggle to unify string theory ? When it comes to GR !

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Offline Mr. Scientist

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« Reply #11 on: 21/10/2009 09:33:19 »
They struggle to unify it in any understandable, testable way. Whilst you can get some very good unified string field theories, some of them are simply not adequate to explain reality. Some consequence of this might be that a theory causes more problems than what it solves.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SZGcNx8nV8U

''God could not have had much time on His hands when he formed the Planck Lengths.''

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Offline yor_on

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What is the minimum mass required to distort space and time ?
« Reply #12 on: 23/10/2009 04:48:14 »
Yes Mr scientist is correct in stating that photons warps space.
How they do it is an open discussion though :)
Some see it as mass, other as momentum.
I lean towards momentum.

Take two parallel light beams traveling f ex.

"The curvature of spacetime is related to the stress energy (the Ricci tensor). Light would contribute to this. But the contribution is mind bogglingly small, so two parallel rays would not be drawn together in the scale of this universe."

It will make light bend as the stress energy momentum curves SpaceTime and as I see it, velocity gains momentum. And with that momentum you will get a stress energy tensor which in its turn means a curvature. So photons will curve SpaceTime too.
« Last Edit: 23/10/2009 04:50:42 by yor_on »
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Kiran The King Kai

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What is the minimum mass required to distort space and time ?
« Reply #13 on: 23/10/2009 05:27:00 »
Yes Mr scientist is correct in stating that photons warps space.
How they do it is an open discussion though :)
Some see it as mass, other as momentum.
I lean towards momentum.

Take two parallel light beams traveling f ex.

"The curvature of spacetime is related to the stress energy (the Ricci tensor). Light would contribute to this. But the contribution is mind bogglingly small, so two parallel rays would not be drawn together in the scale of this universe."

It will make light bend as the stress energy momentum curves SpaceTime and as I see it, velocity gains momentum. And with that momentum you will get a stress energy tensor which in its turn means a curvature. So photons will curve SpaceTime too.
so you mean Light it self curves spacetime ?
well , I speculate that ENERGY too can distort spacetime ! Just my hypothesis !
LOL

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Offline yor_on

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What is the minimum mass required to distort space and time ?
« Reply #14 on: 23/10/2009 06:00:44 »
Yep, now for your theory to become perfect :)
Define energy.
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Offline Vern

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What is the minimum mass required to distort space and time ?
« Reply #15 on: 23/10/2009 13:05:26 »
We refer to space-time distortion as if it were reality. It is theory. Relativity phenomena would be a natural consequence if if space-time were flat and all of matter was made of stuff that must always move at the invariable speed of light.

The OP question has already been answered factually I suspect. I'll just add my view that a single photon, or quantum by its other name, is sufficient to produce gravity.

« Last Edit: 23/10/2009 13:14:42 by Vern »

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Offline Mr. Scientist

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« Reply #16 on: 23/10/2009 13:30:24 »
The reason why and more specifically ''how'' the photon produces gravitational effects is because of acceleration. In general relativity, Einstein was able to make matter the same thing as the presence of curvature, gravitational distortions and acceleration. You could not have matter without having all the above. 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SZGcNx8nV8U

''God could not have had much time on His hands when he formed the Planck Lengths.''

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Offline Vern

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What is the minimum mass required to distort space and time ?
« Reply #17 on: 23/10/2009 13:41:29 »
Quote
You could not have matter without having all the above.
Why not?

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Offline Mr. Scientist

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« Reply #18 on: 23/10/2009 13:45:01 »
Because of the mathematical equivalances that arise in the field equations. For instance, it would be unheard of in relativity to find parts of spacetime to be gravitationally-stressed without the presence of matter, just as much as if the presence of gravitationally-stressed bodies exist, then there is some acceleration present.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SZGcNx8nV8U

''God could not have had much time on His hands when he formed the Planck Lengths.''

 ̿ ̿ ̿ ̿̿'\̵͇̿̿\=(●̪)=/̵͇̿̿/'̿'̿̿̿ ̿ ̿̿ ̿ ̿

٩๏̯͡๏۶

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What is the minimum mass required to distort space and time ?
« Reply #19 on: 23/10/2009 13:59:54 »
Yep, now for your theory to become perfect :)
Define energy.
Don't be misled to believe that just because nobody knows how to define energy that anything defined in terms of it is ill-defined. All quantities in physics must be defined in terms of something else. Eventually you get to the point where you arrive at a basic core quantity which cannot be defined in terms of something else. Otherwise you'd have a circular definition. But we have enough knowledge abou i energhy to use it and define other thingd in terms of it. And we certaintly know enough about it to define certain types of energy. It's similar to the definition of life. I may not be able to give you a definition of life but that doesn't mean to say that I can't point to an object an say "That is alive."

H.A. Kramers once said
Quote
The most important and most fruitful concepts are those which it is impossible to attach a well-defined meaning.

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Offline Pmb

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What is the minimum mass required to distort space and time ?
« Reply #20 on: 23/10/2009 14:01:53 »
Because of the mathematical equivalances that arise in the field equations. For instance, it would be unheard of in relativity to find parts of spacetime to be gravitationally-stressed without the presence of matter, just as much as if the presence of gravitationally-stressed bodies exist, then there is some acceleration present.
Unless the cosmological constant was non-zero

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Offline Vern

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« Reply #21 on: 23/10/2009 18:41:06 »
Because of the mathematical equivalances that arise in the field equations. For instance, it would be unheard of in relativity to find parts of spacetime to be gravitationally-stressed without the presence of matter, just as much as if the presence of gravitationally-stressed bodies exist, then there is some acceleration present.
Did you ever wonder how a photon produces gravity? Did you find a suitable answer? I did wonder; and I did find an answer that suits me. [:)]

Just do a Google search with the string: Vernon Brown cause of gravity

You will be rewarded with several articles about how photons cause each other to change direction toward higher concentrations of photons . [:)]
« Last Edit: 23/10/2009 19:38:02 by Vern »

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« Reply #22 on: 25/10/2009 14:57:14 »
There is a fact that seems to evade most people regarding energy as a source of gravity. Emnergy is a source of gravity because mass is defined to be the source and mass is proportional to energy. As Einstein wrote in his 1916 GR paper
Quote
The special theory of relativity has led to the conclusion that inert mass is nothing more or less than energy, which finds its complete mathematical expression in a symmetrical tensor of second rank, the energy-tensor. Thus in the general theory of relativity we must introduce a corresponding energy-tensor T^a_s, which, like the energy-components t_s of the gravitational field, will have a mixed character, but will pertain to a symmetrical covariant tensor.

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Kiran The King Kai

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What is the minimum mass required to distort space and time ?
« Reply #23 on: 25/10/2009 15:44:19 »
There is a fact that seems to evade most people regarding energy as a source of gravity. Emnergy is a source of gravity because mass is defined to be the source and mass is proportional to energy. As Einstein wrote in his 1916 GR paper

So, my Theory is true in this way HAHA

E=mc^2

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Kiran The King Kai

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What is the minimum mass required to distort space and time ?
« Reply #24 on: 25/10/2009 15:49:46 »
but E=mc^2 is special theory of Relativity ......

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Offline Vern

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« Reply #25 on: 25/10/2009 21:14:45 »
I am truly amazed at the power of Google. I just did a search with the string: Vernon Brown Gravity

Google then showed me what the actual cause of gravity is. [:)] BTW; this thread was number four in the search results. I guess BenV knows what he's about.
« Last Edit: 25/10/2009 21:16:24 by Vern »

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Kiran The King Kai

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What is the minimum mass required to distort space and time ?
« Reply #26 on: 27/10/2009 15:31:08 »
I am truly amazed at the power of Google. I just did a search with the string: Vernon Brown Gravity

Google then showed me what the actual cause of gravity is. [:)] BTW; this thread was number four in the search results. I guess BenV knows what he's about.
Yup I got in first result !
Google uses a frequency for each word.
depending up on word you type . it sets up word frequency to match with key words in your web site.
(words which are present in your website)
this is the way how search engine works ..

and other thing is that your the unique one who worked on it with your name.
« Last Edit: 27/10/2009 15:34:07 by Kiran The King Kai »

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Offline Vern

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« Reply #27 on: 27/10/2009 15:47:43 »
It is a good feature to know about search engines. When searching for the work (or play, in my case) of a certain person, include the name in the search string helps find it.

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Kiran The King Kai

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What is the minimum mass required to distort space and time ?
« Reply #28 on: 28/10/2009 12:21:36 »
It is a good feature to know about search engines. When searching for the work (or play, in my case) of a certain person, include the name in the search string helps find it.
Yup I know ! LOL
If your are theories are published worldwide ...
they might have appeared in Wikipedia too

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Offline Vern

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« Reply #29 on: 28/10/2009 18:44:45 »
They are a little too crude to be real theories. I just call them hunches. My goal was to develop a reasonable cause for every effect I knew about. I started in 1986. My first attempts were with the Standard Model and the Copenhagen interpretation. I found right away that didn't work. Then I came across an old idea that Einstein wrote about. Einstein attributed the idea to Maxwell. Poincare and Lorentz knew about the idea when they developed the Lorentz transformations.

The idea is easy to convey. It is simply: The final irreducible constituent of all physical reality is the electromagnetic field.

Within that concept I was successful. I found a reasonable cause for every effect I knew about.

« Last Edit: 28/10/2009 18:49:51 by Vern »

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Kiran The King Kai

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What is the minimum mass required to distort space and time ?
« Reply #30 on: 29/10/2009 04:16:28 »
Sir, you did some serious study before I was born !!!

Ok, What about math part in your theory ?

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Kiran The King Kai

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What is the minimum mass required to distort space and time ?
« Reply #31 on: 29/10/2009 04:20:48 »
They are a little too crude to be real theories. I just call them hunches. My goal was to develop a reasonable cause for every effect I knew about. I started in 1986. My first attempts were with the Standard Model and the Copenhagen interpretation. I found right away that didn't work. Then I came across an old idea that Einstein wrote about. Einstein attributed the idea to Maxwell. Poincare and Lorentz knew about the idea when they developed the Lorentz transformations.

The idea is easy to convey. It is simply: The final irreducible constituent of all physical reality is the electromagnetic field.

Within that concept I was successful. I found a reasonable cause for every effect I knew about.


does Physicist know about your work ?
did you get any copyright or registered stuff ?

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Offline Vern

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« Reply #32 on: 29/10/2009 11:13:43 »
I am at that point in life where I no longer work. What I do is play. [:)] Physicists have known about the reality of which I write for about two hundred years. Ever since Einstein, they all dismiss it without much thought. However, the old idea withstands every test for reality that has ever been devised. To me it seems that everyone knows it is real but everyone would rather it not be real. So they just dismiss it an continue to pursue their fancies.

I suspect that there is no possibility that the old notion of Maxwell is not what is real in the universe. My own speculations about it may not be exactly the way things work. [:)] They are self consistent. They could be the way nature works.
« Last Edit: 29/10/2009 11:16:04 by Vern »

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Kiran The King Kai

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What is the minimum mass required to distort space and time ?
« Reply #33 on: 29/10/2009 11:27:17 »
I am at that point in life where I no longer work. What I do is play. [:)] Physicists have known about the reality of which I write for about two hundred years. Ever since Einstein, they all dismiss it without much thought. However, the old idea withstands every test for reality that has ever been devised. To me it seems that everyone knows it is real but everyone would rather it not be real. So they just dismiss it an continue to pursue their fancies.

I suspect that there is no possibility that the old notion of Maxwell is not what is real in the universe. My own speculations about it may not be exactly the way things work. [:)] They are self consistent. They could be the way nature works.
wow that's cool !

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Kiran The King Kai

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What is the minimum mass required to distort space and time ?
« Reply #34 on: 29/10/2009 11:39:33 »
I am at that point in life where I no longer work. What I do is play. [:)] Physicists have known about the reality of which I write for about two hundred years. Ever since Einstein, they all dismiss it without much thought. However, the old idea withstands every test for reality that has ever been devised. To me it seems that everyone knows it is real but everyone would rather it not be real. So they just dismiss it an continue to pursue their fancies.

I suspect that there is no possibility that the old notion of Maxwell is not what is real in the universe. My own speculations about it may not be exactly the way things work. [:)] They are self consistent. They could be the way nature works.
don't worry Mr.Vern
I will study your theories and do sometime for you ....

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Offline Vern

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« Reply #35 on: 29/10/2009 12:18:13 »
Maxwell's notion has worked well for me in my electronics career. Remembering that nature behaves exactly as if its final irreducible constituent is the electromagnetic field will serve you well. You will understand natural observations that others may not understand.
« Last Edit: 29/10/2009 12:58:48 by Vern »

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Kiran The King Kai

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What is the minimum mass required to distort space and time ?
« Reply #36 on: 29/10/2009 19:14:49 »
Maxwell's notion has worked well for me in my electronics career. Remembering that nature behaves exactly as if its final irreducible constituent is the electromagnetic field will serve you well. You will understand natural observations that others may not understand.
yeah !
you are correct !

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Offline Vern

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« Reply #37 on: 31/10/2009 18:58:51 »
I spent the day yesterday thinking about cause and effect. I wondered whether we are served well by dismissing cause and effect in our consideration of physical phenomena that we notice. I posted some of my musings in the New Theories Forum

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Offline litespeed

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« Reply #38 on: 31/10/2009 21:20:32 »
Vern: I am one of those who take cause and effect seriously. For insatance, we can predict atomic decay, we simply don't why and particular particle does so at any given moment.

However, I am posting to provoke a discussion on high speed space travel. It seems clear to me that a high speed travelor can easily exceed the speed of light from his own perspective.  Let us postulate we accelerate an explorer in a vessel such that his space time clock ticks half of ours.

We subsequently send him out to an object exactly one light year from our perspective, but he is surprised because he got there in half that time, according to the cesium clock on board.  Further, during his travels his stellar navegation confirms he is apporaching the destinattion at an apparetent speed of light. His half time clock and celestial navegation confirm he will arrive at the target fully in half the time the predicted from the planet from which he accelerated.

Further, ground control has confirmed his messages, and simply explain two things. First, from CG point of view he is traveling at .5 C and will arrive as precicted in two years. However, since his clock is running half speed, the reason he THINKS he is traveling a C is simply that from his perspective, SPACE has been cut in half.



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Offline Vern

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« Reply #39 on: 31/10/2009 21:52:55 »
I suspect you are correct; distances will seem to contract as the craft gains speed.

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Kiran The King Kai

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What is the minimum mass required to distort space and time ?
« Reply #40 on: 01/11/2009 04:20:53 »
I suspect you are correct; distances will seem to contract as the craft gains speed.
as speed increases to words speed of light. clocks tick slows down.Length contraction occurs.
mass will be heaver. 

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Offline Vern

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« Reply #41 on: 01/11/2009 13:02:33 »
Quote from: litespeed
Further, ground control has confirmed his messages, and simply explain two things. First, from CG point of view he is traveling at .5 C and will arrive as precicted in two years. However, since his clock is running half speed, the reason he THINKS he is traveling a C is simply that from his perspective, SPACE has been cut in half.
I suspect that he would not think or even measure his speed as C. His clock would seem to be running correctly for the ship and anyone else in the same inertial frame as the ship.

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Offline Vern

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« Reply #42 on: 01/11/2009 15:28:27 »
I suspect you are correct; distances will seem to contract as the craft gains speed.
as speed increases to words speed of light. clocks tick slows down.Length contraction occurs.
mass will be heaver. 
We agree; however occupants of the vehicle would not sense their own clock slowing. If they had a way of sensing it, they would sense slower time at their destination than occupants of the destination would sense their time.