Are gravitation and electromagnetism related?

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Offline ernst39

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Are gravitation and electromagnetism related?
« on: 15/11/2009 10:10:33 »
In the paper "GRAVITATION AND ELECTROMAGNETISM - Introduction to the THEORY OF INFORMATONS" ( published on www.wbabin.net/astro/acke2.pdf ) is exposed how the concept "information" can contribute to a better understanding of the physics of the macroscopic world: interactions between (whether or not charged) objects, electromagnetic radiation and waves, light.  This is the physics studied in textbooks for a calculus-based course for science and engineering students.

In the paper, the term INFORMATION is introduced in physics by narrowing its everyday meaning to a physical concept.  It is given a specific sense by defining it mathematically.

The "theory of informatons" starts from the idea that a physical object manifests itself in space by emitting INFORMATONS.  Informatons are dot-shaped mass- and energyless entities that rush away at the speed of light carrying information about the position, the velocity and the electrical charge of the emitter.  The rules for the emittion of informatons by a point mass at rest, and their attributes, are defined by the postulate of the emission of informatons.

The consequences of the postulate for het gravitational interaction are developed in paragraphs I to IV, and those for the electromagnetic interaction in paragraph V.  The physical entity FIELD and the physical quantities that characterise a field (FIELD STRENGHT, INDUCTION) acquier a new meaning.  The laws to which these quantities are subjected (MAXWELL'S LAWS) and the rules that manage the mutual forces (NEWTON, COULOMB, LORENTZ) are deduced.  One shows that there is a great analogy between a gravitational and an electromagnetic field, what implies that the gravitational field has a component that is analogous to the magnetic field.

In paragraph VI the "theory of informatons" is applied in the study of electromagnetic waves and radiation.  The idea is introduced that a PHOTON is an informaton transporting an energy package.   This leads to the view that the deflection of light passing through a narrow split can be understood as the visible effect of the transitions of energy packages between informatons that cross one anothers paths.  Finally the implications of the gravity-electromagnetism analogy are investigated for the existence of gravitational waves and gravitons.

The "theory of informatons" is - just like all other theories - a construct of the reason, a mathematically supported logical "language game" devised to understand in a simple and consistent manner the phenomena on which it focusses.



« Last Edit: 26/04/2014 13:14:15 by ernst39 »

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Offline LeeE

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Re: Are gravitation and electromagnetism related?
« Reply #1 on: 15/11/2009 13:36:47 »
Oh no!  Another posting scattered with randomly capitalised words.
...And its claws are as big as cups, and for some reason it's got a tremendous fear of stamps! And Mrs Doyle was telling me it's got magnets on its tail, so if you're made out of metal it can attach itself to you! And instead of a mouth it's got four arses!

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Offline ernst39

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Re: Are gravitation and electromagnetism related?
« Reply #2 on: 15/11/2009 16:15:03 »
randomly???

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Offline Madidus_Scientia

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Re: Are gravitation and electromagnetism related?
« Reply #3 on: 15/11/2009 16:30:41 »
Haha

There's no need to yell

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Offline ernst39

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Re: Are gravitation and electromagnetism related?
« Reply #4 on: 15/11/2009 16:46:32 »
yell???

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Offline Vern

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Re: Are gravitation and electromagnetism related?
« Reply #5 on: 15/11/2009 17:27:15 »
How would I imagine a informaton? Do you have a mental concept of it?

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Offline ernst39

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Re: Are gravitation and electromagnetism related?
« Reply #6 on: 15/11/2009 18:50:57 »
I imagine an informaton as a point (a dimensionless dot) rushing through space, that is defined by  its attributes: velocity and spin (g-spin, β-spin, e-spin, b-spin).

Macroscopically, the informatons emitted by an object constitute its gravitational and (if it is electrically charged) its electromagnetic field.  The density of the flow of informatons in a point of a field manifests itself as the field strenght, and the density of the cloud of informatons as the induction.  Maxwell's laws, that hold as well for gravity as for electromagnetism, can mathematically be deduced from the behaviour of the informatons.

Informatons are mass- and energy less: they go through everything and they (their attributes) are invariably.  Masses (charges) respond on disturbances in the symmetry of the cloud of informatons which they are surrounded by accelerating, in order to become blind for the disturbances.  This idea allows to explain the gravitational and the electromagnetic interactions.

Informatons can carry (transport) energy packets.  Informatons with e-spin transporting an energy packet manifest themselves as photons.  When a photon crosses the path of an informaton with e-spin, it is possible that the energy packet make a transfer from the first to the second informaton:  the visible effect is a change of the direction in witch the photon moves. 


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Offline Vern

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Re: Are gravitation and electromagnetism related?
« Reply #7 on: 15/11/2009 21:09:09 »
It seems to me that a photon could do all that you want the informaton to do. Why is it that you need an entity that can never be seen by experiment?

Keep in mind that photon's pretty much described the universe before Quantum theory. Lorentz was almost there. He only needed to drop the concept of particles and adhere to Maxwell's suspicion that the final irreducible constituent of all physical reality is the electromagnetic field.

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Offline ernst39

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Re: Are gravitation and electromagnetism related?
« Reply #8 on: 16/11/2009 11:29:56 »
(First a question.  I mean that there can only be emission of photons by a body when it is electrically charged and accelerates. How is it possible to explain Newton's gravitation law with the intervention of photons?)

Maxwell's laws are the mathematical expression of experimentally observed electromagnetic phenomena: Coulomb, Ampere, Faraday, ... .  They define and describe the E.M. field perfectly, but - in my opinion - they don't explain it.

With the theory of informatons, I start from the idea that the E.M. and the gravitational field are constituted by a common constituent.  I define that constituent and deduce all the phenomena and laws from that definition.

The usefulness of this approach is in the first place pedagogically:  the quantities "field = information flow density" and "induction = information density" are defined without artificial considerations; and the phenomena and laws of gravity and electromagnetism are deduced in a similar manner.





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Offline Vern

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Re: Are gravitation and electromagnetism related?
« Reply #9 on: 16/11/2009 12:57:57 »
Quote
With the theory of informatons, I start from the idea that the E.M. and the gravitational field are constituted by a common constituent.  I define that constituent and deduce all the phenomena and laws from that definition.
I like this idea, but don't see why you need to create a new entity. You can get to the same place by simply modifying the the way we think of photons. [:)]

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Offline ernst39

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Re: Are gravitation and electromagnetism related?
« Reply #10 on: 16/11/2009 19:15:06 »
Modifying the way we think about photons is just what I do:  I suppose that a photon is an energy package transported by a carrier (VI,5).  I call that carrier an "informaton".

The rate at which an object emits informatons depends only on his rest mass and not on his state of motion or on his electrical charge, factors that are essential for the emission of energy packages.  A (whether or not charged) object at rest or describing a uniform motion doesn't emit energy packages at all.  That implies that, in the case of interactions between masses and between charges at rest or uniformly moving, there are no photons available.  So, we need something else, namely informatons, to explain the mutual forces (Newton, Coulomb, Ampere).

In VI,4 and next, I study the electromagnetic energy radiated by an oscillating electrical point charge.  The attributes of the emitted informatons manifest themselves macroscopic as an E.M. wave.  Some of that informatons transport an energy-package and manifest themselves as photons.  The square of the r.m.s. value of the electric field in a point is a measure for the intensity of the effective flow of photons in the direct vicinity of that point.  We can interpret this by saying that light is a flow of descrete energy packages guided by an E.M. wave.

 
« Last Edit: 16/11/2009 19:17:20 by ernst39 »

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Offline ernst39

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Re: Are gravitation and electromagnetism related?
« Reply #11 on: 20/03/2010 11:12:36 »
In the paper, referred to in message #1, it is shown that it is possible to explain the gravitational and the electromagnetic interactions by introducing "information" as a new physical concept.  It is assumed that information about the position, the velocity and the electrical charge of an object is carried by mass-, energy- and dimensionless  entities that are emitted by that body and rush away with the speed of light.  Because they transport nothing else than information, these entities are called "informatons".  They are defined by their attributes.  The gravitational and the electromagnetic field of a body are identified with the macroscopic manifestation of the cloud of informatons emitted by that body.

In the mentioned paper, it is assumed that the speed of the objects is negligible compared to the speed of light.  In a complementary article (www.wbabin.net/astro/acke4.pdf), the theory is expanded to relativic situations.

All comments are welcome.

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Offline ernst39

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Are gravitation and electromagnetism related?
« Reply #12 on: 15/07/2010 15:16:47 »
The theory of gravito-electromagnetism (G.E.M.)assumes a perfect isomorphism between gravitation and electromagnetism.  Within the framework of general relativity is shown that the gravitational analogs to Maxwell's equations can be derived from the Einstein field equation.

In the paper "THEORETICAL FOUNDATION OF GRAVITO-ELECTROMAGNETISM" (published on http://www.wbabin.net/weuro/acke5.pdf and on http://www.vixra.org/pdf/1006.0045v1.pdf ), we propose an alternative foundation of G.E.M.  We start from the idea that a material object manifests itself in space by emitting mass and energy less dot shaped entities that rush away with the speed of light, carrying information about the position and the velocity of the emitter.  These entities are called "informatons".

We show how informatons constitute the gravitational field of an object and mediate in the interactions between masses.  In 4 we derive the G.E.M. equations from the characteristics of the informatons.

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Offline ernst39

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Are gravitation and electromagnetism related?
« Reply #13 on: 04/11/2010 18:42:41 »
About this topic, see also the article "Theoretical foundation of gravito-electromagnetism" ( http://www.prespacetime.com/index.php/pst/article/view/91/88 ) in PRESPACETIME JOURNAL - Vol 1 - Issue 7 - pp.1085-1104.

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Offline CPT ArkAngel

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Are gravitation and electromagnetism related?
« Reply #14 on: 05/11/2010 02:46:23 »
Electromagnetic waves are photons... And i don't think we will never find gravitons because it is time that produces gravity...

Thank you for this very nice article!!!
« Last Edit: 05/11/2010 05:28:44 by CPT ArkAngel »

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Offline ernst39

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Are gravitation and electromagnetism related?
« Reply #15 on: 27/12/2010 18:52:06 »
In the article "Theoretical Foundation of Electromagnetism" ( http://www.prespacetime.com/index.php/pst/article/viewFile/102/130 ) published in PRESPACETIME JOURNAL - vol 1- issue 10 - pp. 1455-1476, it is shown that "the theory of informatons" is able to explain the phenomena and the laws of electromagnetism in the same way as it explains gravito-electromagnetism.

This justifies the idea that gravitation and electromagnetism are related; and that an accelerated point mass emits a gravitational wave in the same way as an accelerated point charge emits an electromagnetic wave.  It follows that a gravitational wave should transport energy in the form of discrete packages that are the analogues of photons.  In the article, an energy package emitted by a point mass is called a "graviton": it is an informaton carrying a quantum of gravitational energy.

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Offline QuantumClue

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Are gravitation and electromagnetism related?
« Reply #16 on: 11/01/2011 21:06:27 »
Ever seen GEM equations?

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Offline ernst39

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Are gravitation and electromagnetism related?
« Reply #17 on: 12/01/2011 18:08:19 »
                                                "Ever seen GEM equations?"


Yes, see:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravitomagnetism

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Offline ernst39

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Are gravitation and electromagnetism related?
« Reply #18 on: 11/05/2011 18:21:02 »
The article "Physical Foundation of the Theory of Fields" (http://www.prespacetime.com/index.php/pst/article/viewFile/174/182), published in PSTJ - vol 2 - issue 4 (http://www.prespacetime.com) focuses on the backgrounds and the essential points of the theory of informatons.

The hypothesis that the substance of gravitational and electromagnetic fields is "information" carried by "informatons", leads to the following insights about the nature of those fields.

- in any inertial reference frame, gravitational and electromagnetic phenomena propagate with the speed of light
- gravitational and electromagnetic fields are continuously regenerating
- there is noise on the quantities Eg/E and Bg/B hat macroscopically characterize a field
- the field Eg/E created and maintained in a point P by a uniform moving mass/charge always points to the actual position of that mass/charge, and not to the position where it is "seen" from P
- the dynamics of the informatons translates in the laws of G.E.M./Maxwell
- there is a perfect isomorphism between G.E.M. and E.M.
- a photon/graviton is an informaton that transports a quantum of energy

« Last Edit: 12/05/2011 09:43:50 by ernst39 »

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Offline ernst39

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Are gravitation and electromagnetism related?
« Reply #19 on: 14/11/2011 09:45:34 »
The statements formulated in the previous post are elaborated in the article "The Nature of the gravitational Field" (http://www.prespacetime.com/index.php/pst/article/viewFile/286/276) published in PRESPACETIME JOURNAL - Vol 2 - Issue 11 (http://www.prespacetime.com).

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Offline Bored chemist

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Are gravitation and electromagnetism related?
« Reply #20 on: 14/11/2011 19:11:24 »
Published by these lot
Prespacetime Journal (ISSN: 2153-8301) is published by QuantumDream, Inc. We are committed to truth and excellence. Please also visit Journal of Consciousness Exploration & Research and DNA Decipher Journal published by QuantumDream, Inc., and Scientific GOD Journal published by Scientific GOD, Inc.
Please disregard all previous signatures.

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Offline ernst39

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Re: Are gravitation and electromagnetism related?
« Reply #21 on: 17/03/2012 09:47:35 »
The deduction of gravito-electromagnetism (G.E.M) in 1893 by Oliver Heaviside in the article  "A gravitational and electromagnetic Analogy" (serg.fedosin.ru/Heavisid.htm) is the elaboration of the idea that gravitational and electromagnetic fields must be governed by analogue laws:  the laws of G.E.M. are formulated by analogy with Maxwell's laws.

In the article "Physical Foundation of Gravito-Electromagnetism - The Theory of Informatons"  (www.intellectualarchive.com/getfile.php?file=TPHZOulTfp4&orig_file=PHYSICAL FOUNDATION OF G.E.M..pdf) published on Intellectual Archive (www.intellectualarchive.com - branch: Natural Science; area: Physics; author: Antoine Acke), the idea is elaborated that this analogy points to the fact that both kind of fields are the macroscopic manifestation of the same microscopic phenomenon:  the "informaton" is introduced as the elementary constituent of both gravitational and electromagnetic fields.  We can say that the relation of the "theory of informatons" to the "theory of fields" is similar to that of the "kinetic theory of gases" to the "ideal-gas law":  the informatons play the role of the molecules.

The new article contains a complete exposition - including the mathematical derivations - of the theory of informatons with regard to the gravitational interactions.  The result is a continuouly regenerating field with a granular structure, that is isomorphic with the E.M. field and that macroscopically can be described as a continuum that is governed by the laws of G.E.M.   These laws can - from the point of view of G.R.T. - be considered as an approximation of the usual gravity field equations (www.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravitomagnetism).
« Last Edit: 17/03/2012 09:57:43 by ernst39 »

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Offline ernst39

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Re: Are gravitation and electromagnetism related?
« Reply #22 on: 01/09/2012 14:01:21 »
In the article "The gravitational Field of an accelerating Mass - Gravitational Waves", published in PRESPACETIME JOURNAL - Vol 3 -No 10,
( http://prespacetime.com/index.php/pst/article/view/403/415 ) is demonstrated how gravitational waves can be explained by the theory of informatons.

It is shown that:
-  an oscillating point mass is the source of a "gravito-magnetic" wave that is analoguous to the EM wave generated by an
   oscillating point charge
-  an oscillating point mass emits energy in the form of granular entities - called "gravitons":  these are - in analogy
   with "photons" - identified as energy packages carried by informatons.

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Offline William McCormick

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Re: Are gravitation and electromagnetism related?
« Reply #23 on: 02/09/2012 22:31:50 »
How would I imagine a informaton? Do you have a mental concept of it?

I was taught that light brought information to your eye with a particle of electricity. Traveling at a certain velocity. Blue light travels at one velocity and red light at another velocity. I was taught there is just one subatomic particle, the particle of electricity. It travels at different velocities to generate different effects. Heat, Light, UV, X-rays, gravity, you name it is the same particle at a different velocity.

Look at how red light is knocked out of light traveling through water, in a couple hundred feet from the surface. Then yellow, then green. All supposedly the same particle yet knocked out at different depths. The reason the red light gets knocked out first is because it is traveling more slowly, then the blue light. The red light is actually accelerated back to blue light speed, before it disappears. Blue light is eventually accelerated back up to darkness in the abyss, before it disappears.

I was taught that the hydrogen atom was made up of particles of electricity, trapped in a spherical shape, that is much smaller then the average scientist thinks it is. The infinite number of particles of electricity in the sphere, the single atom of hydrogen, are kept there by the huge surface area exposed to the outside, and such a small volume inside. That is what allowes matter to be so solid in appearance. All matter from every angle at every second is being bombarded by very high velocity ambient radiation. That is what gives matter its appearance of density. Even though matter is 90 percent space, even tungsten. Gas is even less solid.

If you put helium through an arc, it expands exponentially, to spheres that are sized, so that they are visible to the naked eye. This was a propulsion system designed in the fifties and perhaps earlier in Germany. The atom is smaller then the average scientist thinks it is, so the propulsion we can obtain from expanding tiny amounts of helium is just amazing. 

The effects we perceive from matter are brought to us by particles of electricity. We do not actually see the matter itself, rather we take information from particles that leave the matter, and let our eyes and brain, decipher that into what we believe the matter is.

There is no way to see a particle of electricity, because it takes a countless number of particles of electricity to bring you a picture of the particle you claim to see.

"Modern Science" is not modern at all, it is dark ages nonsense. The internet is about as exciting as a black and white TV was. You could not put interesting material out on TV and have the masses get it, and you really cannot put interesting material out on the internet and have the masses get it. People just do not want to know the bad news. They just want happy news.

Gravity is just an electrical force.


                      Sincerely,

                            William McCormick

 

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Offline ernst39

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Re: Are gravitation and electromagnetism related?
« Reply #24 on: 03/09/2012 09:43:34 »
Dear William Mac Cormick,

As stated in my first post, the theory of informatons is about the physics studied in textbooks for a calculus based course for science and engineering students (for example: Hans C. Ohanian - PHYSICS).  Because your views on light, hydrogen, matter and gravity are contrary to what is taught in that context, it is obvious that you cannot agree with  my ideas about gravitation and electromagnetism.

Sincerely,

   Ernst39 

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Offline ernst39

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Re: Are gravitation and electromagnetism related?
« Reply #25 on: 20/01/2013 18:11:33 »
In the article "Electromagnetism explained by the Theory of Informatons" (http://vixra.org/abs/1301.0114) the electromagnetic phenomena and interactions are explained by the hypothesis that "information" (more accurate: "e-information") is the substance of the electromagnetic field.  The constituent element of that substance is called "an informaton".

According to "the Theory of Informatons" every material object manifests itself in space by the emission of informatons: granular mass and energy less entities that rush away with the speed of light, carrying information about the position, the velocity and the electrical status of the emitter.

In the article "Electromagnetism explained by the Theory of Informatons":
- The electromagnetic field (E,B) in a point is characterized as the macroscopic manifestation of the presence of a cloud of informatons near that point
- Maxwell's laws are mathematically deduced from the dynamics of the informatons
- The electromagnetic interactions are explained as the effect of the trend of an electrically charged object to become blind for flows of e-information generated by other charged objects
- Photons are identified as informatons carrying a quantum of energy, what helps us to understand the strange behaviour of light as described by QEM

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Re: Are gravitation and electromagnetism related?
« Reply #26 on: 20/01/2013 18:37:21 »
Most certainly EM and gravitation are related. Both of them are distributed through the same space and obey inverse-square law. Even child can tell that they are somehow related  :D


But informatons... nah.. I'm more like a ether believer  8D


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Offline Ethos_

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Re: Are gravitation and electromagnetism related?
« Reply #27 on: 25/01/2013 00:53:08 »
In the article "Electromagnetism explained by the Theory of Informatons" (http://vixra.org/abs/1301.0114) the electromagnetic phenomena and interactions are explained by the hypothesis that "information" (more accurate: "e-information") is the substance of the electromagnetic field.  The constituent element of that substance is called "an informaton".


We could call them; "Infotrons", or maybe, "Infomats". Nah............Let's just continue to call them "Photons".
"The more things change, the more they remain the same."

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Offline ernst39

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Re: Are gravitation and electromagnetism related?
« Reply #28 on: 25/01/2013 10:36:56 »
There is a big difference between a "photon" and what is called an "informaton".

The theory of informatons about gravitation and electromagnetism starts from the idea that any material object manifests itself in space by the emission of "informatons".  The rest mass of the object is the only factor that determines the rate at which this happens (# 25 - paper referenced:I).  According to the theory of informatons, informatons are at the basis of gravitational and electromagnetic phenomena.

Photons are emitted by accelerated electrically charged objects (for exemple by a point charge that harmonically oscillates).  In 6 of the paper referenced, the hypothesis is developed that some of the informatons emitted by an accelerated charge take along a quantum of energy, that they appear as "photons".  The wave character of light can be understood as the macroscopic manifestation of the dynamics of the informatons, and the corpuscular character as the manifestation of the fact that some of them are carriers of a quantum of energy.

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Offline ernst39

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Re: Are gravitation and electromagnetism related?
« Reply #29 on: 09/06/2013 16:46:55 »
Gravito-electromagnetism (GEM) describes the gravitational phenomena by introducing a gravitational field that can be viewed as a combination of two fields: a force field and an induction field.  It is assumed (Heaviside, Jefimenko, ...) that this composite field - that serves as a mediator for the gravitational interactions - is isomorphic with the electromagnetic field.

In the article "INFORMATION AS THE SUBSTANCE OF GRAVITATIONAL FIELDS"  (http://viXra.org/abs/1306.0008)  it is shown that the GEM-description of the gravitational interaction between two - whether or not moving particles - can perfectly be explained by the hypothesis that "information carried by informatons" is the substance of gravitational fields.
« Last Edit: 09/06/2013 16:48:49 by ernst39 »

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Offline ernst39

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Re: Are gravitation and electromagnetism related?
« Reply #30 on: 22/02/2015 15:32:46 »
In the article "Fundamentals of the Theory of Informatons" (https://www.researchgate.net/publication/272506055_Fundamentals_of_the_Theory_of_Informatons)  the following topics are discussed:

1. Space as an imaginary boundless three-dimensional continuum in which objects and events can be located.
2. Time as an imaginary one-dimensional continuum in which events can be dated.
3. Reference frames as coordinate systems used to represent the position and the orientatien of objects and events at  a particular time.
4. Mass as the source of informatons.
5. Gravitational and electromagnetic fields as the macroscopic manifestations of the attributes of the informatons.
6. Gravitons and photons as informatons carrying a quantum of energy.

This article is complementary to more technical presentations of the theory of informatons published in vol 36/4 and vol 36/6 of HADRONIC JOURNAL (http://www.hadronicpress.com).

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Offline PmbPhy

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Re: Are gravitation and electromagnetism related?
« Reply #31 on: 24/02/2015 17:53:24 »
Quote from: ernst39
I suppose that a photon is an energy package transported by a carrier (VI,5).  I call that carrier an "informaton".
I'm sorry to inform you but in essence all you did is rename the photon. The particle that carries EM energy is by definition the photon.

Quote from: ernst39
The rate at which an object emits informatons depends only on his rest mass and not on his state of motion or on his electrical charge, factors that are essential for the emission of energy packages.
That is incorrect. It's the temperature of the body which determines the rate at which a body emits energy, not the rest mass.

Quote from: ernst39
  A (whether or not charged) object at rest or describing a uniform motion doesn't emit energy packages at all.
That too is incorrect. Have you never heard of the battery powered laser pointer? It can be at rest in the inertial frame S and emit photons.

Quote from: ernst39
That implies that, in the case of interactions between masses and between charges at rest or uniformly moving, there are no photons available.
Untrue for the above reasons. Plus you need to understand that all you did is to rename photon as "informaton". 

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Offline ernst39

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Re: Are gravitation and electromagnetism related?
« Reply #32 on: 24/02/2015 19:58:55 »
Quote 1:
In &6 of the article,  I identify an "informaton carrying an energy package" with a "photon".  I don't believe that this is contrary to the classical definition, it's a specification.

Quote 2:
"The rate at which an object emits informatons depends only on its rest mass and not on its state of motion or on its electrical charge (factors that are essential for the emission of energy packages)". 
The theory of informatons starts from the hypothesis that a particle manifests its substantiallity by emitting informatons.
If an electrically charged particle is accelerated it is a source of EM energy.  In the context of the theory of informatons that means: some of the emitted informatons are loaded with a package of energy (and appear to the observer as photons). 
The temperature of a body is a macroscopic measure for the movements (oscillations) of the constituent particles on microscopic level.

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The source of the emission of EM energy are accelerating particles at the microscopic level.

Quote 4
I did not rename the "photon" (see reaction on quote1).  I have introduced the informaton as the constituent element of gravitational and EM fields.  The photon (an informaton carrying an energy package") is - in the frame of the theory of informatons - still the constituent element of EM radiation.

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Offline PmbPhy

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Re: Are gravitation and electromagnetism related?
« Reply #33 on: 24/02/2015 21:43:57 »
Quote from: ernst39
In &6 of the article,  I identify an "informaton carrying an energy package" with a "photon".  I don't believe that this is contrary to the classical definition, it's a specification.
Why bother doing this at all?

Quote from: ernst39
... a particle manifests its substantiallity ...
What on Earth does "manifests its substantiality" mean?

Quote from: ernst39
"by emitting informatons"
You're doing yourself a disservice by renaming photons because you perceive them to be something different than the scientific community. When I see people to this it comes across as pseudoscience and the author is a crackpot. Is that the way you wish to be perceived? If not then please stop giving new names to old objects.

Quote from: ernst39
If an electrically charged particle is accelerated it is a source of EM energy.
This is off topic from what you're quoting. I was commenting on your claim that

Quote from: ernst39
The rate at which an object emits informatons depends only on his rest mass and not on his state of motion or on his electrical charge, factors that are essential for the emission of energy packages.
This appears to contradict what you just posted, i.e. If an electrically charged particle is accelerated it is a source of EM energy.

This is also getting off topic. You appear to think that objects at rest can't radiate energy, which is a false assumption. You're almost certainly thinking of charged particles and not complex bodies. E.g. atoms most certainly do radiate energy.

Also a particle has energy not only due to its rest mass but also due to the energy in its electric field.

Quote from: ernst39
The temperature of a body is a macroscopic measure for the movements (oscillations) of the constituent particles on microscopic level.
So what? If you were excluding macroscopic objects from your assertions then you should have stated that. But that's not what you implied when in your first post you wrote "The "theory of informatons" starts from the idea that a physical object manifests itself in space by emitting INFORMATONS." So you do speak of objects emitting photons.

Quote from: ernst39
The source of the emission of EM energy are accelerating particles at the microscopic level.
You're mistaken. There are other ways that EM energy is produced such as what I mentioned above, i.e. atoms transitioning from a higher energy level to a lower energy level emitting photons in the process. Nuclear reactions are another example.

Quote from: ernst39
I did not rename the "photon" (see reaction on quote1).
I missed something in my first read which I just caught. You claim that this thing called an information travels at the speed of light but has no energy. There's no such thing as a particle with such properties. Did you think you could simply "define" particles into existence? That's just plain nonsense. You're not talking about science anymore. You've sunken into the depths of science-fiction.

Quote from: ernst39
  I have introduced the informaton as the constituent element of gravitational and EM fields
You're acting like a crackpot now. See:
http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/crackpot.html
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14. 10 points for each new term you invent and use without properly defining it.
You failed to properly define "constituent element" as used in this context. Since gravitational and EM fields have energy and your informatons don't then "constituent element" is nonsense.

This is where I get off. I don't chat with crackpots anymore. Sorry.

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Offline ernst39

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Re: Are gravitation and electromagnetism related?
« Reply #34 on: 25/02/2015 12:32:54 »
And I don't discuss with persons who are biased. 
If you had made the effort to browse the article you would have seen what I mean with "substantiallity", how  an "object" and an "informaton" are defined, what it means that informatons are the "constituent elements" of gravitational and EM fields, under what conditions an electrical charged body emits EM-radiation (photons"), ...

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Offline Ethos_

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Re: Are gravitation and electromagnetism related?
« Reply #35 on: 28/02/2015 18:02:39 »
And I don't discuss with persons who are biased. 

Everyone has some degree of bias even if only a very small degree. I have opinions and so do you. But in our forum, discussion is necessary if we are ever expected to learn and or share. Don't just ignore someone simply because they have differing views than you have. If they are reasonable and you are too, there is always the opportunity for one or both persons to learn. Frankly, that is what this forum should be about for every member that participates here. Even the brightest amongst us still has something to learn.
"The more things change, the more they remain the same."

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Offline ernst39

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Re: Are gravitation and electromagnetism related?
« Reply #36 on: 01/03/2015 18:49:20 »
Ethos,

I agree with you.  I have no problems to discuss with reasonable people who have differing views and/or a different background than me, but I assume that a serious discussion requires  a minimum of respect.

Ernst39

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Offline PmbPhy

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Re: Are gravitation and electromagnetism related?
« Reply #37 on: 02/03/2015 02:26:36 »
Quote from: ernst39
I agree with you.  I have no problems to discuss with reasonable people who have differing views and/or a different background than me, but I assume that a serious discussion requires  a minimum of respect.
Yeah, but  you've defined reasonable people as those people who agree with you and that's the problem. The fact is that I'm a very reasonable person when it comes to discussing physics. When it comes to people who insult me because I disagree with them then its a whole new ball of wax. And while I can't speak for others I can speak for myself and in my case I respect others until they stop being respectful to me because I prove them wrong or disagree with them and that's the case here.

A friend of mine was over this Saturday. I showed him your paper and he agreed with me that it was written by a crackpot. And this friend is far from being just your average everyday physicist. He's last years winner of the Kavli prize in Astrophysics: http://www.kavlifoundation.org/kavli-prize

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Offline ernst39

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Re: Are gravitation and electromagnetism related?
« Reply #38 on: 02/03/2015 09:05:34 »
Yeah, but  you've defined reasonable people as those people who agree with you
Where do you find that "definition"?

A friend of mine was over this Saturday. I showed him your paper and he agreed with me that it was written by a crackpot. And this friend is far from being just your average everyday physicist. He's last years winner of the Kavli prize in Astrophysics: http://www.kavlifoundation.org/kavli-prize
Thank your friend in my name because he had spent time for the evaluation of the work of a "crackpot".
« Last Edit: 02/03/2015 16:49:18 by ernst39 »

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Offline PmbPhy

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Re: Are gravitation and electromagnetism related?
« Reply #39 on: 02/03/2015 17:28:01 »
Quote from: ernst39
Where do you find that "definition"?
Everyone here is intelligent enough to know that the way and what you post implies that's what you mean by it. Just ask them.

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Offline jccc

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Re: Are gravitation and electromagnetism related?
« Reply #40 on: 07/03/2015 05:11:32 »
Most certainly EM and gravitation are related. Both of them are distributed through the same space and obey inverse-square law. Even child can tell that they are somehow related  :D


But informatons... nah.. I'm more like a ether believer  8D

you are right on. gravity is em force. see http://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?topic=54194.0

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Offline ernst39

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Re: Are gravitation and electromagnetism related?
« Reply #41 on: 07/03/2015 17:03:42 »
you are right on. gravity is em force

There is a formal analogy between the gravito-electromagnetic (GEM) description of gravitation and the mathematical description of the electromagnetic (EM) phenomena (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravitoelectromagnetism).
In the article "Fundamentals of the Theory of Informatons" (reply #30) it is shown that this analogy perfectly can be explained by the hypothesis that any material object manifests its substantiality (its physical presence) by the emission - at a  rate proportional to its rest mass - of granular  mass and energy less entities rushing away with the speed of light and carrying information about the position, the velocity and the electrical status of their emitter.  Because they carry nothing but information we call this entities "informatons". 
In the frame of that hypothesis gravitational and electromagnetic fields are understood as the macroscopic manifestations of the attributes of the informatons,  and the laws of GEM and Maxwell can be deduced from the kinematics of the informatons.
« Last Edit: 07/03/2015 17:05:57 by ernst39 »