Thermite

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Offline moonfire

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Re: Thermite
« Reply #50 on: 07/12/2006 06:39:32 »
Which one hon?  Which area?  Yikes...hehe  Let me think about all possible responses....I know I didn't say I was pregnant...no, that wasn't it? I didn't win the lottery...no, drats, that thought made me mad...I am coming to Italy in April, yes, I am doing that when I get over to Europe...I did wear all appropriate clothing to work today...yes, ...uh, oh...help the ole lady out now, what crazy comment did I leave on your post?  LOL  Covering my eyes..okay, peeking out of one of my hands over one eye...
"Just Me, Lo" Loretta

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Offline lightarrow

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Re: Thermite
« Reply #51 on: 08/12/2006 14:12:51 »
You have a lot of fantasy Loretta! Do you write, by chance?
A kiss to you.

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Offline moonfire

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Re: Thermite
« Reply #52 on: 18/12/2006 04:58:56 »
LOL  Yes, I do....not professionally, even though I have friends that encourage me to post some of my short stories or poetry...I prefer to share with friends as that is most rewarding as some of the magazines want me to shave some of the words off my stories or poetry...nah, I won't do that, so they shall remain with me...LOL

Baci a voi il mio principe handsome che affascina; -)!  Also, I noticed that Baci and Besos are very similar in pronouncing(two different languages)
"Just Me, Lo" Loretta

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Offline lightarrow

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Re: Thermite
« Reply #53 on: 19/12/2006 19:27:39 »
Tebia toje, Loretta. Mnoghi pozelui.
Alberto.

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Offline huwston

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Re: Thermite
« Reply #54 on: 20/12/2006 16:10:45 »
am i right to to think that 2 mole of al will react with 3 moles of FeO 2:3 OR 1:1.5

SO 350g of Al = 350/27 = 12.962 mol

FeO 55.8 + 16 + 71.8

12.962 mole of Al x 1.5 moles of FeO = 19.444 mol x  (molar mass of FeO)71.8 = 1396.079

so 350g of Al will need 1396.079g of FeO to make a thermite mix
 ive read of a few different ratios of thermite and im unsure as to which 1 to follow.
just wanted to know if these figures ive worked out are correct, and will KMnO4 and glycerine ignite thermite?

KClO3 is not your friend.

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Offline ukmicky

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Re: Thermite
« Reply #55 on: 21/12/2006 02:38:26 »
I've seen thermite lit with a bunch of matches stuck together on a stick so all the heads were touching with one poking out the centre that burns down and ignites the rest all at once whilst their being poked in the container of thermite

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Offline lightarrow

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Re: Thermite
« Reply #56 on: 22/12/2006 17:07:07 »
am i right to to think that 2 mole of al will react with 3 moles of FeO 2:3 OR 1:1.5 SO 350g of Al = 350/27 = 12.962 mol
FeO 55.8 + 16 + 71.8
12.962 mole of Al x 1.5 moles of FeO = 19.444 mol x  (molar mass of FeO)71.8 = 1396.079
so 350g of Al will need 1396.079g of FeO to make a thermite mix
 ive read of a few different ratios of thermite and im unsure as to which 1 to follow.
just wanted to know if these figures ive worked out are correct, and will KMnO4 and glycerine ignite thermite?

Your computation is correct. About igniting thermite with KMnO4 and glycerine I really don't know, but if you have not a small amount of it, I think yes. The critical point however is how fine-grained is the Al powder. With grey powder there usually is no problem. With the brilliant powder, which is more common, is very difficult to ignite it.

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Offline moonfire

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Re: Thermite
« Reply #57 on: 25/12/2006 07:27:41 »
Tebia toje, Loretta. Mnoghi pozelui.
Alberto.

Stumped here...It looks like a mixture of Spanish and Russian???  aagghh!  LOL  I need some help here...is this a different dialect in Italiano?
"Just Me, Lo" Loretta

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Offline lightarrow

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Re: Thermite
« Reply #58 on: 28/12/2006 14:22:49 »
Tebia toje, Loretta. Mnoghi pozelui.
Alberto.

Stumped here...It looks like a mixture of Spanish and Russian???  aagghh!  LOL  I need some help here...is this a different dialect in Italiano?
Not Italian, not Spanish. You guessed the rest.
I wrote: "To you too, Loretta. Many kisses"
Bye!

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Offline moonfire

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Re: Thermite
« Reply #59 on: 03/01/2007 02:02:16 »
LOL  You are too sweet...Russian! I don't know much there...you got me!!!  You know Russian!
"Just Me, Lo" Loretta

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Offline moonfire

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Re: Thermite
« Reply #60 on: 03/01/2007 02:09:00 »
Siente Handsome!  Say something again in Russian...a phrase or something so I can take a look at it closely...
"Just Me, Lo" Loretta

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Offline lightarrow

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Re: Thermite
« Reply #61 on: 03/01/2007 08:21:08 »
Siente Handsome!  Say something again in Russian...a phrase or something so I can take a look at it closely...
Ти   нравится   танцивать?

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Offline moonfire

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Re: Thermite
« Reply #62 on: 04/01/2007 02:07:17 »
Hmmmm, interesting as I am not sure how to say this...geez, I need to see if I can go to the library to hear it and see the words on a self course...:LOL aagghh!  Stumped!  Completely stumped!
"Just Me, Lo" Loretta

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Offline lightarrow

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Re: Thermite
« Reply #63 on: 04/01/2007 19:27:25 »
I asked you if you like to dance.

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Offline moonfire

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Re: Thermite
« Reply #64 on: 05/01/2007 02:26:17 »
Really?  If only we were closer, I would gladly accept your offer!  ;-)
"Just Me, Lo" Loretta

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Offline huwston

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Thermite
« Reply #65 on: 08/01/2007 23:07:56 »
am i right to to think that 2 mole of al will react with 3 moles of FeO 2:3 OR 1:1.5

SO 350g of Al = 350/27 = 12.962 mol

FeO 55.8 + 16 + 71.8

12.962 mole of Al x 1.5 moles of FeO = 19.444 mol x  (molar mass of FeO)71.8 = 1396.079

so 350g of Al will need 1396.079g of FeO to make a thermite mix
 ive read of a few different ratios of thermite and im unsure as to which 1 to follow.
just wanted to know if these figures ive worked out are correct, and will KMnO4 and glycerine ignite thermite?

another Q! does the al have to fine? would filing an al block into filings work just as well?
another random Q? whats the best way to make copper sulphate or obtain copper sulphate without paying for it? ive read somewhere that if you put copper in acetic acid(white) and mix it with sodium chloride this will produce CuSO4! but wont the chloride ions make CuCl2 and sodium acetate (aq)?

KClO3 is not your friend.

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Offline lightarrow

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Thermite
« Reply #66 on: 09/01/2007 17:25:57 »
another Q! does the al have to fine? would filing an al block into filings work just as well?
another random Q? whats the best way to make copper sulphate or obtain copper sulphate without paying for it? ive read somewhere that if you put copper in acetic acid(white) and mix it with sodium chloride this will produce CuSO4! but wont the chloride ions make CuCl2 and sodium acetate (aq)?
You cannot use Al filings as first ignited thermite; you can use it under the first one (made with fine-grained Al powder). You don't even imagine how many times I tried to ignite thermite made of "normal" Al powder (the brilliant one, made of tiny pieces of thin plate); I didn't succeed. Not to talk about filings (much bigger pieces). I succeeded when I used the grey powder.

You want to have copper sulfate without paying for it, making it from copper metal?
Do you have copper metal for nothing? I don't know in your country, but here in Italy you can take tens of kilos of copper sulfate for a few euros, but copper metal at much greater price!

If you want to make copper sulfate you need sulfuric acid or sodium (or potassium...ecc.) hydrogensulfate. If you want to make it from copper metal, you also need an oxidizer: oxygenated water, for example, or the oxidation of copper by air or sulfate is very slow (and you have to heat it).

Of course neither chloride nor acetate is sulfate, so you cannot make sulfate from those! (Unless you have a nuclear reactor who transforms atoms of a kind into another!)

I hope you don't want copper sulfate to use it in a thermite.

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Offline huwston

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Thermite
« Reply #67 on: 11/01/2007 17:03:47 »
lol, no it wasnt for thermite, i want to make very large CuSO4 crystal.

scraps of copper are easy to find here in the uk.

would leaving copper pieces in car battery acid for long enough, make a decent concentration and yield for a tennis ball sized crystal(if they can grow that big), provided i had enough copper?
« Last Edit: 11/01/2007 17:05:20 by huwston »
KClO3 is not your friend.

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Offline huwston

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Thermite
« Reply #68 on: 11/01/2007 18:30:04 »
is it true that batery acid mixed with sugar makes a thermite like reaction?

no

it basicly turns into a carbon dildo if u do it in a small diameter beaker
KClO3 is not your friend.

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jolly

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Thermite
« Reply #69 on: 24/02/2007 16:07:02 »
yes andrew, probably was, they did the same in 1897-9 agaisnt spain. never gonna change they have an evil agenda. and never learn. could have been bin-laden too though. only they know ultimately.

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Offline lightarrow

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« Reply #70 on: 24/02/2007 21:01:48 »
yes andrew, probably was, they did the same in 1897-9 agaisnt spain.
Can you explain please?

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Offline BillJx

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Thermite
« Reply #71 on: 01/03/2007 19:59:31 »
yes andrew, probably was, they did the same in 1897-9 agaisnt spain.
Can you explain please?

The sinking of the Maine was, and is, suspected of being a ploy to drum up American enthusiasm for the Spanish_American war.  The Spanish-American war is a rather sorry story after the jingoism is taken out of it, but doesn't have much to do with this thread, or this site for that matter.
"If we do not change our direction, we are likely to end up where we are headed."
- Chinese Proverb

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jolly

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Thermite
« Reply #72 on: 03/03/2007 18:59:10 »
dont have to you have, if 911 was a scam then it was done for the same reasons, and bin-laden is just goldstien from 1984.

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Offline Weldmann

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Thermite
« Reply #73 on: 13/08/2007 11:32:09 »
Can I make the grey powdered Aluminum or must I buy it from a chemical supplier?  Yes, I too have had no success with Al filings or powder that is shiny.

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Offline lightarrow

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« Reply #74 on: 13/08/2007 17:51:49 »
Can I make the grey powdered Aluminum or must I buy it from a chemical supplier?  Yes, I too have had no success with Al filings or powder that is shiny.
I had to buy it. I don't know how to make it (maybe there is a way, but certainly not easy).

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Offline Weldmann

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« Reply #75 on: 14/08/2007 06:56:42 »
Well, I managed to find and purchase some atomized Al powder and I mixed it thoroughly with black iron oxide in the amounts --> 5 grams Al powder (grey) and 16.1 grams black iron oxide.  I found myself an old Aluminum forklift propane tank that was cut in half and placed a healthy pile of KMnO4 underneath the thermite and on top of it.  Then I poured another healthy dose of glycerine on top of it all and quickly moved wayyyy back.  Sure the permanganate went off at about fifteen seconds after contact with the glycerine but ultimately, nothing even remotely began to melt the aluminum tank the mix was in.  I have been trying to get this right for months and was so sure today was the day!  Possible reasons for failure:
1.  the black iron oxide is too damp to be ignitable without being heated in an oven for a while to dehydrate it fully.
2.  the aluminum powder came as fiberglass filler powder and was too old perhaps and had already turned into Aluminum Oxide.
3.  the KMnO4 is just not hot enough to light this particular mixture even though ingredients checkout to be genuine.
4.  I need to add some Aluminum chips or filings or turnings of a larger nature along with the powder.

Anyhow though, thank you for your help and I am all ears as to anymore  suggestions or comments pointing me in the right direction. I won't give up till I succeed! [;D]

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Offline lightarrow

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« Reply #76 on: 14/08/2007 11:00:19 »
Well, I managed to find and purchase some atomized Al powder and I mixed it thoroughly with black iron oxide in the amounts --> 5 grams Al powder (grey) and 16.1 grams black iron oxide.  I found myself an old Aluminum forklift propane tank that was cut in half and placed a healthy pile of KMnO4 underneath the thermite and on top of it.  Then I poured another healthy dose of glycerine on top of it all and quickly moved wayyyy back.  Sure the permanganate went off at about fifteen seconds after contact with the glycerine but ultimately, nothing even remotely began to melt the aluminum tank the mix was in.  I have been trying to get this right for months and was so sure today was the day!  Possible reasons for failure:
1.  the black iron oxide is too damp to be ignitable without being heated in an oven for a while to dehydrate it fully.
2.  the aluminum powder came as fiberglass filler powder and was too old perhaps and had already turned into Aluminum Oxide.
3.  the KMnO4 is just not hot enough to light this particular mixture even though ingredients checkout to be genuine.
4.  I need to add some Aluminum chips or filings or turnings of a larger nature along with the powder.

Anyhow though, thank you for your help and I am all ears as to anymore  suggestions or comments pointing me in the right direction. I won't give up till I succeed! [;D]
Why 5 grams Al and 16.1g black iron oxide? It should be ~ 4 times so 5*4 = 20g FeO.
However, if the powders are good, I think you should have had a reaction (even if slower) the same.

You don't have to put any other substance under the termite, and if you ignite it with KMnO4 or other powders, don't put much of it comparing to the thermite mix, or this last powder will be spread off by the first reaction. However, if the Al and iron oxide powders are good and well dry, there is no very much need of extremely hot igniting reactions: you could use little amounts of simple black powder or KNO3/sugar or a good flame-torch. Be sure to really have FeO and not something like FeOOH*xH2O. How did you get the iron oxide?
Better is Fe2O3 however (I have experimented almost always with this one).

Remember that you can't fuse an Al container even as little as what you used, with such amounts of thermite. The reason is that the melted iron formed in the centre of the reaction is just a tiny volume, comparing to the mix, also considering that much of it remains attached to the slag. With a big glass full of pressed thermite mix I could obtain ~ a ball 1cm in diametre of melted iron.
 
The reaction is not very fast: it proceeds in several seconds, and you recognize it well from the high luminosity of it: a Very bright and growing light-yellow/white spot; if you keep looking at it, you could have serious problems to your eyes!

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Offline Weldmann

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« Reply #77 on: 23/08/2007 00:43:09 »
Ahh, thankyou lightarrow, your guidance has finally helped me achieve success!  In using just a small amount of the potassium permanganate with the glycerine I was able to finally ignite the (adjusted 4:1  <-> FeO:Al) thermite!  I found another way to ignite it as well.  I used a small piece of kanthal wire, (similar to nichrome) and attached some long leads to a car battery and feathered the connection causing the wire to heat up like it does in your toaster.  Right when the wire was so hot it was about to melt, the thermite ignited!  I was surprised to learn and now see first hand that most of the literature on the net about thermite is exaggerated as to its strength.  I have read time and again how a couple of table spoons can melt through the hood of a car and through the engine block into the pavement below... ya right, not even close!  In using a few cups of thermite I couldn't even burn through quarter inch plate steel.  I was thinking back to something I had read though, about how coarser pieces of aluminum and iron oxide were used to slow down the reaction rate (combustion) of the thermite.  Is it possible then to use the fine powdered thermite to begin the reaction and have some coarse stuff mixed in to propagate a stronger yet slower result?  In other words, could I burn through thicker steel if I was able to successfully ignite coarser thermite?  One other question, I see that there are many oxides of metals one can use to mix with the aluminum dust, is iron oxide going to give you the strongest and hottest reaction where burning through steel is concerned, or is there another combination or mixture of combinations that would burn hotter and stronger?

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Offline lightarrow

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Thermite
« Reply #78 on: 23/08/2007 14:01:04 »
Ahh, thankyou lightarrow, your guidance has finally helped me achieve success!  In using just a small amount of the potassium permanganate with the glycerine I was able to finally ignite the (adjusted 4:1  <-> FeO:Al) thermite!  I found another way to ignite it as well.  I used a small piece of kanthal wire, (similar to nichrome) and attached some long leads to a car battery and feathered the connection causing the wire to heat up like it does in your toaster.  Right when the wire was so hot it was about to melt, the thermite ignited! 
That's the best way.
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I was thinking back to something I had read though, about how coarser pieces of aluminum and iron oxide were used to slow down the reaction rate (combustion) of the thermite.  Is it possible then to use the fine powdered thermite to begin the reaction and have some coarse stuff mixed in to propagate a stronger yet slower result?
Yes, you have to use enough fine powder thermite (let's say ~ 50 - 100 grams) put inside a cavity of the coarser one and on it, and you'll ignite it. I could use aluminum shavings for the coarser one. Of course it burns slower, but the heat is the same.
If you want to melt a metal plate under the thermite (I haven't experimented it, however), you should put a thin-metal layer at the bottom of the container (brass, copper, aluminum ecc), before the thermite, to allow the melted iron to collect a little at the bottom of the container before escaping from it; then it melts the thin-metal layer and drops down to the metal plate you want to burn through.
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One other question, I see that there are many oxides of metals one can use to mix with the aluminum dust, is iron oxide going to give you the strongest and hottest reaction where burning through steel is concerned, or is there another combination or mixture of combinations that would burn hotter and stronger?
Ah, that's the 1-million dollars question! I believe they have made a lot of experiments on this subject. I have personally experimented with:
1.MnO2
2.TiO2
3.Cr2O3
4.CuO
5.BaO2
6.CaSO4

With 1. I had problems of stability; with 2.  the reaction is extremely slow and not much hot (TiO2 has a high ΔΗformation in absolute value); with 3. the reaction is slower and less hot in comparison to Fe2O3 but, at the end, you have a bulk of pure chromium! With 4. and 5. it goes off almost like flash powder, so you can't use it (at least with fine powders); the same I think should happen with SnO, SnO2, PbO, PbO2, Pb3O4, CdO, HgO (these last two, especially the last, will release toxic metals, so I don't advise to you!); with 6. it's very good, I think it's hotter than with Fe2O3.

Sometimes, with the standard thermite, to increase the amount of melted iron formed, I used to add iron powder to the thermite (fine) powder. Of course the reaction is less hot (the more the iron, the less hot) but still hot to go over 1500C and melt the iron. I don't remember the percent, you could try with 25% (in weight) at the beginning and then increase it.

Make me know if you succedeed to melt the steel plate!
« Last Edit: 23/08/2007 14:03:44 by lightarrow »