Can nitric oxide-oozing socks boost blood flow?

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Offline thedoc

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Can nitric oxide-oozing socks boost blood flow?
« on: 13/01/2010 16:26:31 »
During these cold winter months you might like to strap yourself into some lovely fluffy socks, perhaps that your granny made you at Christmas.  And now you can get special socks for donor organs and people with diabetes, according to a paper from Chemistry of Materials this week.
[img float=left]http://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/copies/RTEmagicC_800px-Halksockar_01.JPG.jpg[/img]It’s not quite putting livers in jumpers and hepatic veins in booties but chemists this week have described how they’ve created a special fabric that can deliver nitric oxide to donor organs.
Nitric oxide is great in preventing damage to organs which aren’t getting enough oxygen.  It’s actually a molecule which many animal cells use to communicate with other cells.  And one of the tasks nitric oxide performs is as a muscle relaxant, which means it can dilate blood vessels and increase blood flow.  Actually, it’s one of the signalling pathways that Viagra capitalises on.
So this fabric contains zeolites which are molecular cages of aluminium and silicon oxides.  And those cages will soak up gas molecules like nitric oxide and then release them in a controlled manner.  The way they make the bandage fabric is to construct a water-repellant polymer, then embed some of these zeolites in it.  They can control how fast nitric oxide is released by making the polymer more or less water repellent.  So to get the nitric oxide flowing you just need to add moisture.
And the scientists working on this, Kenneth Balkus and Harvey Liu at the University of Texas, are solving a problem here that many have struggled with before in medicine.  It’s quite tricky to find reliable ways of storing and then delivering nitric oxide in a controlled manner.  Because, as with many good things, too much is toxic.
So apart from wrapping donated organs ready for transplantation, the zeolite fabric could be used for people with diabetes, in whom it’s been found that nitric oxide production is compromised. Wearing this fabric might increase blood flow in all sorts of extremities, and they could really benefit from some NO socks.
« Last Edit: 13/01/2010 16:42:39 by chris »

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Offline BenV

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Re: Can nitric oxide-oozing socks boost blood flow?
« Reply #1 on: 13/01/2010 16:26:58 »
Thanks for spotting the typo RD - now fixed...

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Offline Bored chemist

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Can nitric oxide-oozing socks boost blood flow?
« Reply #2 on: 13/01/2010 19:23:13 »
"Actually, it’s one of the signalling pathways that Viagra capitalises on."
Where do you propose to wear these socks?
Please disregard all previous signatures.

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Offline chris

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Can nitric oxide-oozing socks boost blood flow?
« Reply #3 on: 13/01/2010 19:32:36 »
Very good!
I never forget a face, but in your case I'll make an exception - Groucho Marx

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Offline Bacon Wizard

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Can nitric oxide-oozing socks boost blood flow?
« Reply #4 on: 03/09/2010 22:14:05 »
How far is this along? Are such fabrics on the market yet? (Huge fan of the show here!)

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Offline MartinTheK

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Can nitric oxide-oozing socks boost blood flow?
« Reply #5 on: 04/09/2010 01:17:59 »
So you put these on your feet and the NO tippy-toes through the epidermis to work its pharmacological action all over your little piggies?  Now pull the other one. You wouldn't, by any chance, have something like a double blind randomized study to show how well these actually work?

I wonder what these happen to cost? As it happens my secret formula "Aztec Cactus Salve" has been previously shown to do just the same thing for $2 less as a serendipitous side effect of its miraculous powers to restore hair and banish wrinkles. Watch for the infomercial coming soon to a midnight cable TV program near you.

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Offline Geezer

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Can nitric oxide-oozing socks boost blood flow?
« Reply #6 on: 04/09/2010 06:33:06 »
"Aztec Cactus Salve" has been previously shown to do just the same thing for $2 less

Gimme a break. Everyone knows Tincture of Moth Vomit is the only cure.

Forunately, I can supply it at a mere $19.95 for an entire microliter.
There ain'ta no sanity clause, and there ain'ta no centrifugal force ćther.

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Offline Variola

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Offline MartinTheK

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Can nitric oxide-oozing socks boost blood flow?
« Reply #8 on: 04/09/2010 16:32:15 »
OK. Let's open this article and ask ourselves questions like real scientists would...

1. This is a news blurb in a publication of the American Chemical Society.
(a) Why is it not in a critically reviewed medical Journal?
(b) What do chemists know about wound healing or mice with diabetes?
(c) How did it come to be in this journal? (i.e. was it sent to them by some huckster, I mean "Marketing Consultant"?

2. The premise of this article presumes that NO gas freely passes thru the skin?
(a) If that is true, why do we need lungs?
(b) Why doesn't the Oxygen all leak out and we die of suffocation as we read this?
(c) Why isn't Viagra supplied in topical form?

3. The only real therapeutic use of these stockings is in (possibly) treating diabetic foot ulcers.
(a) Would you put a pair of socks on an open foot ulcer ( In a diabetic with compromised healing in the first place!) and then lace up your shoes for a walk to the market?


Good news Mother! I met a man on the way to market and I have traded the cow for this pair of magic socks which will cure your diabetic ulcers!
« Last Edit: 04/09/2010 16:43:16 by MartinTheK »

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Offline Variola

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Can nitric oxide-oozing socks boost blood flow?
« Reply #9 on: 04/09/2010 23:14:06 »
OK. Let's open this article and ask ourselves questions like real scientists would...

1. This is a news blurb in a publication of the American Chemical Society.
(a) Why is it not in a critically reviewed medical Journal?
(b) What do chemists know about wound healing or mice with diabetes?
(c) How did it come to be in this journal? (i.e. was it sent to them by some huckster, I mean "Marketing Consultant"?

2. The premise of this article presumes that NO gas freely passes thru the skin?
(a) If that is true, why do we need lungs?
(b) Why doesn't the Oxygen all leak out and we die of suffocation as we read this?
(c) Why isn't Viagra supplied in topical form?

3. The only real therapeutic use of these stockings is in (possibly) treating diabetic foot ulcers.
(a) Would you put a pair of socks on an open foot ulcer ( In a diabetic with compromised healing in the first place!) and then lace up your shoes for a walk to the market?


Good news Mother! I met a man on the way to market and I have traded the cow for this pair of magic socks which will cure your diabetic ulcers!

Ok I will give it a go!

1)
a) I suspect because it has not undergone trials yet, so there is nothing medical to review.
b)Quite a bit, most chemists understand the basics of biochemistry.
c)Because it is a chemical materials journal, the authors proves they could incorporate a gas into a material.

2)
a) It does, it is very permeable and passes easily through membranes. Best guess is that when in the air NO takes on a different form and has to be processed, it is highly reactive with oxygen etc
b)Leak out of where???
c)Because most men don't wear socks on their knobs? Seriously I think viagra comes in at a different point in the pathway.

3)
a)Well the therapeutic use is another matter, but if it helps speed up healing I would give it a go.
  A potty-mouthed, impertinent female who thinks she is God's gift to men" -JimBob

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Offline MartinTheK

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Can nitric oxide-oozing socks boost blood flow?
« Reply #10 on: 04/09/2010 23:41:54 »
It just goes to prove the profound understanding my old man ( the door to door siding salesman ) had of the human mind. Some people were just plain born to be "fleeced". If those arguments seem sound to you, who am I to refute you  with tiresome questions - like whoever told you that fairy story about NO crossing the epidermis freely? I wonder if you would kindly oblige me with some sort of factual reference outside the realm of Science Fiction.

You know this could be my ticket to buying that villa overlooking the harbor in Korcula on the Adriatic riviera...it's obviously somebody's meal ticket.

*******************
I just goggled "transdermal NO" to check on this buncomb that transdermal absorbtion of NO exists outside of fairyland...Here's what I turned up...

(1) some bodybuilders peddling some kind of snake oil formulation guaranteed to turn you into another Hercules (results depend upon diet and exercise - go figure.)

(2) A chemist at the University of Akron, Ohio who is studying this using....

"Three diazeniumdiolates (formerly “NONOates”), including two water soluble compounds, (Z)-1-[N-(2-aminoethyl)-N-(2-ammonioethyl)amino]-diazen-1-ium-1,2-diolate (DETA-NO) and (Z)-1-[N-(3-aminopropyl)-N-(3-ammoniopropyl)amino]-diazen-1-ium-1,2-diolate (DPTA-NO), and one insoluble compound, DPTA-NO grafted to dextran microspheres (DPTA-NO–g-dextran) were used to transdermally deliver NO to rats. "

So if you are (a) willing to slather your tootsies with "diazeniumdiolates" and (b) you are a rat - then yes you could absorb NO through the skin of your feet.

So go know.










« Last Edit: 05/09/2010 02:14:17 by MartinTheK »

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Offline Variola

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« Reply #11 on: 05/09/2010 10:31:06 »
Quote
   like whoever told you that fairy story about NO crossing the epidermis freely? I wonder if you would kindly oblige me with some sort of factual reference outside the realm of Science Fiction.

Yes I can, it was this chap:


http://www.sussex.ac.uk/biochemistry/profile2692.html

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Nitric-Protocols-Methods-Molecular-Biology/dp/0896035379/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1283678331&sr=8-1

He is one of my lecturers and also a good friend, so I asked him.  If you look at his research( and book), you will find that his field is nitric oxide. Much as I would like to put my faith in your 'google search' I would trust the word of a researcher above that.
Next time you want to insult my intelligence by suggesting I am buying into fairy stories and patronize me by saying my posts are  science fiction, perhaps you might realise that I am a degree student, I am studying molecular medicine, I recently took modules taught by the above researcher on NO amongst other things, so you can kiss my a**.
  A potty-mouthed, impertinent female who thinks she is God's gift to men" -JimBob

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Offline MartinTheK

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Can nitric oxide-oozing socks boost blood flow?
« Reply #12 on: 05/09/2010 14:11:47 »
OK.Your prof is flogging a book on Amazon called "Nitric Acid Protocols". Oooooh! Shiny! But I'm from Missouri (or at least I drove thru it last June)


Now kindly show me a critically reviewed article in a reputable medical journal to support your frankly incredible claim that NO freely passes through the human epidermis.

Are you sure you're a graduate student? When I was in my graduate seminars in Pharmacology (back in the day) we learned how to support our arguments without inviting people to kiss our a**. The way we did that was to politely say, "show me the facts to support your most remarkable assertion." When they couldn't do that then they were fair game to be asked if they had recently visited fairyland and maybe had a toot with the little people.

In my experience people start in using profanity when their statements have been shown to be ridiculous twaddle--or they have a financial interest in some kind of junk they are trying to sell.

That wouldn't be you would it? So why not just use dat lil ol' cut and paste function and show us your proof the way real graduate students do?

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Offline Variola

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« Reply #13 on: 05/09/2010 14:31:57 »
Quote
OK.Your prof is flogging a book on Amazon called "Nitric Acid Protocols". Oooooh! Shiny! But I'm from Missouri (or at least I drove thru it last June)
 

Not really, it happens to be a book he wrote. Oh an it is Nitric Oxide Protocols, not acid. Might suggest he knows a thing or two about NO though, certainly more than an ageing oik from Missouri.


Quote
ow kindly show me a critically reviewed article in a reputable medical journal to support your frankly incredible claim that NO freely passes through the human epidermis.
   

Actually I think you will find I don't need to, I have asked my lecturer, a researcher in the field of NO and he has told me that NO is permeable through membranes. It is up to you to prove him and me wrong.

What you don't like is being shown up to be wrong, hence you are now floundering and demanding papers. However I will help you out a bit here.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20662836

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20813110

Do you need me to explain either of those to you?

Quote
Are you sure you're a graduate student? When I was in my graduate seminars in Pharmacology (back in the day) we learned how to support our arguments without inviting people to kiss our a**. The way we did that was to politely say, "show me the facts to support your most remarkable assertion." When they couldn't do that then they were fair game to be asked if they had recently visited fairyland and maybe had a toot with the little people.   

Nah I am making it all up!!! [::)] When you were a graduate? Can you actually remember back that far? Now you see for me to support an argument politely, it would have to be asked politely, not suggesting I had gone to fairy land or that it was science fiction. I thought when you posted those questions you were interested in whether the socks would actually work, so I put a few answers back in the hope of opening up the discussion, see if anyone had any ideas. But instead you replied in a patronising and insulting tone. Hence my reply that you can kiss my a**. I am not known for my tolerance of fools on here.

As for the socks, I have doubts whether they would work for any length of time, and if the amount of NO embedded would last for enough time to warrant the cost of the socks. However that does not stop NO being permeable in membranes.

Now Martin, if NO is NOT permeable in membranes, how do you suggest it works? You might have to blow the dust off your books for that one.
All you have done so far is googled it....  [::)]




« Last Edit: 05/09/2010 14:41:26 by Variola »
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Offline MartinTheK

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Can nitric oxide-oozing socks boost blood flow?
« Reply #14 on: 05/09/2010 15:11:00 »
You show me two articles showing that NO crosses membranes. That is not in dispute. The question at hand is whether or not NO crosses the epidermis (the skin barrier) which you have not shown...because no one has ever shown it to do so..and which simple logic tells us would be a miraculous phenomenon.

We are still waiting to see your proof, Mister.

Now you may wonder why I am pursuing this question so doggedly. If, in fact, NO doesn't cross the skin barrier these socks are worthless junk that some scoundrel is trying to flog to diabetics as useful prevention of foot amputations (as an "off label" treatment) instead of real medicine.....I hate scum who cheat and prey upon the sick. I could be easily talked into a long and exemplary prison sentence for the lot of them - and double that for people with a degree.

 
« Last Edit: 05/09/2010 16:10:33 by MartinTheK »

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Offline Variola

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Can nitric oxide-oozing socks boost blood flow?
« Reply #15 on: 05/09/2010 15:55:22 »
I wonder what part of this you are not understanding.....  [::)]

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6WMD-4576DSX-1&_user=10&_coverDate=01/07/2002&_alid=1451220097&_rdoc=1&_fmt=high&_orig=search&_origin=search&_zone=rslt_list_item&_cdi=6932&_sort=r&_st=13&_docanchor=&view=c&_ct=1199&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=133e7816c36779a4944ff800d10a1a4a&searchtype=a

(excuse the long link, would not post any other way)


Mathematical Modelling of Nitric Oxide Regulation of Rete Peg Formation
in Psoriasis- NICHOLAS J. SAVILL, RICHARD WELLER and JONATHAN A. SHERRATT
Journal of Theoretical Biology
Volume 214, Issue 1, 7 January 2002, Pages 1-16


Quote
Healthy
human skin does produce nitric oxide, at very
low levels, as a result of chemical reactions within
sweat (Weller et al., 1996b). However, production
is about ten times higher in non-lesional skin of
psoriatics, and about ten times higher again in
the plaques themselves (Weller& Ormerod, 1997;
Orem et al., 1997; Ormerod et al., 1998). These
observations are highly suggestive of a role for
nitric oxide in the development of psoriasis, although
no mechanism has yet been established.
From a clinical viewpoint, this is an exciting
possibility, because nitric oxide levels can be altered
relatively easily, by topical application of
nitric oxide donors or inhibitors.   

Skin produces NO in combination with sweat,sweat is on the outside of your body.
It is not a pump system and does not rely on protein carriers. It is permeable through the membrane.
Topical, meaning applied to the skin. This backed up by other cited papers in the article.


Quote
The nitric oxide molecule is small and is soluble
in phospholipid membranes and thus will
diffuse at approximately the same (high) rate in
different layers of the skin, unimpeded by cells,
extracellular matrix components, etc. 

Oh look, it is permeable through the phospholipid later, that means it can move freely in and out of cells, even skin layers. It can even squeeze through in between epithelial cells.

Quote
The high production rates of nitric oxide in
psoriatic plaques have been established by
measuring release rates of nitric oxide from the
skin surface.

It is released from cells, show me some proof that it cannot enter back in?

I am losing the will to live with this conversation. I have the word of a researcher in NO, which you are trying to doubt because you are wrong. Why don't you email him and tell him he is wrong?
 I have stated my position, all you have done is googled some rubbish. Either prove NO cannot be absorbed through the skin, or admit you are wrong and back down. I am not going to waste my time replying to your ill-informed posts until you do.

As for my peevish comments and 'scientific traditions'..... lol you think googling is a scientific tradition and far outweighs the word of a respected researcher? Hahahahhahahahaha  [;D]


« Last Edit: 05/09/2010 16:00:08 by Variola »
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Offline MartinTheK

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« Reply #16 on: 05/09/2010 16:25:08 »
The epidermal layer is composed of dead cells-whose function is to keep things (i.e. like NO molecules) out of the body.Your arguments about what happens in live cells simply do not apply to the case at hand. Why are you working so hard to try to confuse people? It is extremely dishonorable.

These socks are almost certainly worthless garbage (p>> 99.9%). Worse than that - they would divert people from effective therapy and consume scarce health care funds. You are promoting untried and pernicious therapy based on a preposterous idea. Does your Mother know what you're up to?
« Last Edit: 05/09/2010 16:31:53 by MartinTheK »

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Offline Variola

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« Reply #17 on: 05/09/2010 16:39:43 »
Quote
The epidermis is composed of dead cells...your arguments about what happens in live cells do not apply to the case at hand. Why are you working so hard to try to confuse people? It is extremely dishonorable.
 

I repeat:

Skin produces NO in combination with sweat,sweat is on the outside of your body.
It is not a pump system and does not rely on protein carriers. It is permeable through the membrane.
Topical, meaning applied to the skin. This backed up by other cited papers in the article.
It can even squeeze through in between epithelial cells.

So top skin is totally dead and nothing can pass through it huh?? Best tell that to manufactures of medications that reply on being absorbed by the skin. Desquamation is not a suit of armor!
 
Quote
You are promoting untried therapy based on a preposterous idea. 

I repeat:

As for the socks, I have doubts whether they would work for any length of time, and if the amount of NO embedded would last for enough time to warrant the cost of the socks.

Quote
  Does your Mother know what you're up to?

I doubt it she died some years ago.


 [::)] [::)] [::)] [::)] [::)] [::)] [::)]

Are you being deliberately thick or do you need to take a course in reading comprehension?  [::)]

I repeat either show me that NO cannot be absorbed by the skin or back down.










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Offline Variola

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« Reply #18 on: 05/09/2010 16:45:33 »
The wonderful world of science forums....

*My lecturer, an NO researcher says NO can be absorbed into the skin.

*Papers state that NO can be absorbed into the skin. They cite other papers than also state this.

But because Martin_The_K states it cannot permeate, supported by a few google quotes, I am to believe the opposite!  [:D]

This place just gets better!  [:)]
  A potty-mouthed, impertinent female who thinks she is God's gift to men" -JimBob

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Offline MartinTheK

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« Reply #19 on: 05/09/2010 16:55:57 »
It was your original claim that NO crossed the skin barrier. I have thrice asked you to show some reputable source to support your claim and the best you can come up with is to ask me to prove that it doesn't. Apparently that's all you've got. I personally believe you, little buddy. (thousands wouldn't) I'm sure you will have a most interesting career in science

I hope that this tiresome exchange has at least caused people to question the junk science behind these wretched socks.

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Offline Variola

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« Reply #20 on: 05/09/2010 17:22:15 »
Quote
It was your original claim that NO crossed the skin barrier. 

My original sentence was in response to yours questioning whether it did or not. My response was that I thought it did.

Quote
have thrice asked you to show some reputable source to support your claim and the best you can come up with is to ask me to prove that it doesn't.   

I have provided-

*The opinion of my lecturer a researcher in NO and backed his credentials up by posting links to his profile. Are you now saying he is not reputable? His papers on NO are not reputable?

*Several peer-reviewed papers that dispute your opinion.

You are now relying on trying to claim I have not provided reputable source, that is a pretty poor show Martin.
 
Quote
I personally believe you, little buddy. (thousands wouldn't) I'm sure you will have a most interesting career in science

Ah so instead of backing up your statement with evidence, you decide to try and patronise me again.  [;D] Martin, I am 35 yrs old, I have 3 kids and a house, I already have a professional career behind me, and I am midway through my career change. Do you really think I am going to be bothered  whether an ageing 'nurse' believes a word I say?  [:D] [:D] (Rhet)


Quote
  hope that this tiresome exchange has at least caused people to question the junk science behind these wretched socks.
 


 The junk science that you have yet to disprove,
Well it has certainly shown you up for what you are.




 



« Last Edit: 05/09/2010 17:24:54 by Variola »
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Offline MartinTheK

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« Reply #21 on: 05/09/2010 17:42:08 »
At this point I am reminded of the advice of Mark Twain, "Never argue with a fool because people passing by won't be able to tell the difference between you."

If you ever find something that actually supports your thesis (actually, now it's your 'opinion' you say), I would be interested in seeing it .






« Last Edit: 05/09/2010 17:47:13 by MartinTheK »

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Offline Variola

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« Reply #22 on: 05/09/2010 17:54:34 »
So instead of providing any sound arguments you are now trying to say it is my thesis??  [:D] [:D]

Do you not think people can read this thread??? I am not sure whether you really are being dense, or you really do believe you can rewrite history!

Keep going Martin, I am actually looking forward to your posts now, they are becoming more entertaining!
  A potty-mouthed, impertinent female who thinks she is God's gift to men" -JimBob

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Offline MartinTheK

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« Reply #23 on: 05/09/2010 18:04:22 »
Excuse me...I'm spending the day reading Huckleberry Finn again....You know, I could almost swear there's a guy just like you in it!

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Offline Variola

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« Reply #24 on: 05/09/2010 18:14:18 »
Really? Wow he must look odd with long hair and a large chest  [:D] [:D]
  A potty-mouthed, impertinent female who thinks she is God's gift to men" -JimBob

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Offline Bored chemist

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« Reply #25 on: 05/09/2010 18:55:44 »
OK.
Martin, just for a start your assertion that "The epidermal layer is composed of dead cells-whose function is to keep things (i.e. like NO molecules) out of the body."
is wrong.
The stratum corneum is made of dead cells.
Also, it's primary purpose is to keep water in.

It happens to do a reasonable job of keeping stuff out; but it's not that good.
Are you aware of nicotine patches and such?
Did you know that most nerve agents are able to penetrate intact skin in large enough amounts to kill people?
A slightly more obscure variation on the nicotine patch is the glyceryl trinitrate patch used in the treatment of angina. They work quite well. As it happens they work because the GTN gets   converted to nitric oxide.

Since it's clear that all these big molecules like sarin, nicotine or GTN can get through the skin (all the layers of it) it is absurd to say that nitric oxide can't.

You position is ridiculous and you owe Variola an apology.
Please disregard all previous signatures.

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Offline Variola

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Can nitric oxide-oozing socks boost blood flow?
« Reply #26 on: 05/09/2010 19:15:50 »
Careful BC, you will be asked if you are a real chemist and if you have anything to support that!  [:)]

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A slightly more obscure variation on the nicotine patch is the glyceryl trinitrate patch used in the treatment of angina. They work quite well. As it happens they work because the GTN gets  converted to nitric oxide.
 
Ahhhhh so that's how they work, that's quite clever.





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Offline RD

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« Reply #27 on: 05/09/2010 19:18:33 »
Why isn't Viagra supplied in topical form?

There are similar medications which are applied locally ...

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Alprostadil is sold in the United States as urethral suppositories, under the brand name MUSE  (Medicated Urethral Suppository for Erection) by Vivus ...  Muse delivers alprostadil as a penile suppository, inserted into the urethra, at least ten minutes before the erection will be needed.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alprostadil

 [:0]

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Offline MartinTheK

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« Reply #28 on: 06/09/2010 05:53:10 »
Oh. You guys are still going on with this little p***ing match. (Si voul ballere Signor Contino!)

I started in reading Huck Finn today but the actual pertinent story was "A Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court" It's about a bunch of supercilious "experts" who are married to the logical fallacy of reasoning by analogy who meet a pragmatic no-nonsense Yankee.

It is fallacious reasoning by analogy to claim that (a)because nerve gases are absorbed through the skin, or (b)MUSE is absorbed by the uretheral mucosa, or (c)transdermal nitro patches work therefore it is proven that these socks work to deliver pharmacologically active NO across the epidermal barrier

Here's a simple experiment you can try at home. Since you fellows assert that transdermal NTG works by delivering NO across the dermal barrier, why don't you rub some on your penis and see if it promotes an erection like Levitra does?

Don't bother. I tried it myself years ago. Nothing happens...whereas I can confidently assure you that Levitra works quite well thank you. How can that be if your reasoning is sound? (Besides that, your lady friend will very likely refuse your affections "with that stuff coating your thing")
« Last Edit: 06/09/2010 06:55:20 by MartinTheK »

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Offline Geezer

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« Reply #29 on: 06/09/2010 06:22:17 »
Martin,

I suspect you don't have other user's signatures visible. You might find it revealing if you enable them.

There ain'ta no sanity clause, and there ain'ta no centrifugal force ćther.

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Offline Bored chemist

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« Reply #30 on: 06/09/2010 07:00:01 »
The sun came up yesterday and today but, strictly speaking, it's false reasoning to assume that it will come up tomorrow.

I didn't say that the fact that some things go through the skin proves that NO will; I just said it makes it reasonable to assume that it might.
It is, on the other hand, unreasonable to assume that it wont.

Your understanding of the penis also seems limited.
Firstly , the normal response of the penis to being rubbed with anything is to become erect. I guess you had forgotten that.
Secondly the idea that transdermally supplied GTN will promote erections is pretty mainstream science. Here's a reference you can belittle.
"The presently available scientific documentation, although less extensive, indicates that NO donors, such as topically applied nitroglycerin (GTN; for example, 1-2 puffs of an ordinary GTN spray applied to the shaft of the penis), might be a reasonable alternative. Further larger-scale research on the efficacy and tolerability of topical GTN is needed to establish its full therapeutic potential in the treatment of erectile dysfunction."

from
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9891191
Or this one
http://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/cgi/content/full/166/1/115

Thirdly, the placebo effect could do wonders here.
« Last Edit: 06/09/2010 07:10:24 by Bored chemist »
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Offline Geezer

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« Reply #31 on: 06/09/2010 07:09:49 »

"The presently available scientific documentation, although less extensive, indicates that NO donors, such as topically applied nitroglycerin (GTN; for example, 1-2 puffs of an ordinary GTN spray applied to the shaft of the penis), might be a reasonable alternative. Further larger-scale research on the efficacy and tolerability of topical GTN is needed to establish its full therapeutic potential in the treatment of erectile dysfunction."


I'm not sure we should let Neil know about this. Excessive application of GTN might lead to unfortunate accidents.
« Last Edit: 06/09/2010 07:12:44 by Geezer »
There ain'ta no sanity clause, and there ain'ta no centrifugal force ćther.

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Offline Variola

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« Reply #32 on: 06/09/2010 07:33:11 »
Martin,

I suspect you don't have other user's signatures visible. You might find it revealing if you enable them.




Well quite. But there is no point, not only does it state in my profile I am female, I have also made reference to it when Martin claimed I was a character out of a book, but he appears to lack sufficient reading comprehension.
Hence his references to calling me 'Mister' and 'little buddy'.

I didn't realise you can hide other peoples signatures, I just assumed he was being a ****.

It is a pity because I now can't take Martin up on his scientific offer of rubbing stuff onto my penis to see if it becomes hard. In my experience, you don't even have to rub them for that to happen! Does that mean I emit GTN which affects men in my immediate vicinity?  [:D]
« Last Edit: 06/09/2010 07:40:20 by Variola »
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Offline MartinTheK

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« Reply #33 on: 06/09/2010 07:55:38 »
I don't care how many papers you've read. I am the personal owner and operator of a penis that does not become erect...

(a) no matter how much you rub it
(b) no matter how much topical nitroglycerine you apply to it- because it doesn't deliver pharmacologically significant levels of NO.
but
(c) responds well to oral ingestion of phosphodiesterase inhibitors (ie:Viagra et al) which does cut the mustard NO wise.

Now that is a concrete reproducible fact that can be verified easily by anybody who cares to give it a try.  NTG applied topically simply does not provide effective levels of NO sufficient to work..I don't care what kind of phony and poorly designed study may say differently. Ask the man that owns one, why don't you?

Now then, if slathering NTG directly on the skin doesn't deliver NO...just maybe I am justifiably skeptical of these preposterous socks' ridiculous claims.


Finally as to the suggestion that I should be mindful of the identities of the other parties in this discussion,how is that scientific? Facts is facts no matter who speaks them. NTG doesn't reverse ED because it just plain doesn't put enough NO across the skin to do that. All the King's horses and all the King's men don't change that simple, concrete and easily verifiable fact.

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Offline Variola

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« Reply #34 on: 06/09/2010 08:26:22 »
You really are floundering now aren't you?

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Now that is a concrete reproducible fact that can be verified easily by anybody who cares to give it a try.  NTG applied topically simply does not provide effective levels of NO sufficient to work..I don't care what kind of phony and poorly designed study may say differently. Ask the man that owns one, why don't you?
   

One data point, woo. That does not smack of science to me.
 
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Now then, if slathering NTG directly on the skin doesn't deliver NO...just maybe I am justifiably skeptical of these preposterous socks' ridiculous claims.
 

Being sceptical is healthy. I am sceptical of the claims of the socks. That does not equate to NO being unable to pass through the skin. Your original argument was based on skin being composed of a dead layer which nothing can pass through, now you are bringing a dysfunctional penis into the argument!  [::)]


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Finally as to the suggestion that I should be mindful of the identities of the other parties in this discussion,how is that scientific?   

It isn't scientific, but it does stop you  might make you look less like a complete d1ck.

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NTG doesn't reverse ED because it just plain doesn't put enough NO across the skin to do that. All the King's horses and all the King's men don't change that simple, concrete and easily verifiable fact.

Oh so now it has gone from zero NO being able to cross the skin to not enough!! You are too funny!!




  A potty-mouthed, impertinent female who thinks she is God's gift to men" -JimBob

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Offline MartinTheK

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« Reply #35 on: 06/09/2010 14:20:02 »
Let's consult the I Ching.

Oh look! Hexagram number 4 - Youthful Folly

THE JUDGMENT


   YOUTHFUL FOLLY has success.
   It is not I who seek the young fool;
   The young fool seeks me.
   At the first oracle I inform him.
   If he asks two or three times, it is     importunity.
   If he importunes, I give him no information.
   Perseverance furthers.


Ancient wisdom prevails.
« Last Edit: 06/09/2010 14:33:36 by MartinTheK »

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Offline Variola

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« Reply #36 on: 06/09/2010 14:24:48 »
Ancient claptrap prevails.

It takes a real man to admit when he is wrong.
  A potty-mouthed, impertinent female who thinks she is God's gift to men" -JimBob

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Offline Bored chemist

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« Reply #37 on: 06/09/2010 20:56:08 »
Martin, do you realise that, since you can say "I am the personal owner and operator of a penis that does not become erect...

(a) no matter how much you rub it...",
your dick doesn't work properly?


Given that you have problems in that department, it's not a valid yardstick  for how well penises in general react to GTN.

Just because yours doesn't work, doesn't mean that other people's don't.
One data point isn't good science; when you know it's an atypical point, then it's not science at all.

This morning as I was getting ready to get the bus to work I didn't have much time to spend on this; but I had no problem finding journal articles in what seem to be peer reviewed literature (I posted links to a couple) that show that GTN jolly well does help in at least some cases of erectile dysfunction so for you to say "NTG doesn't reverse ED because it just plain doesn't put enough NO across the skin to do that. All the King's horses and all the King's men don't change that simple, concrete and easily verifiable fact." is laughable.

This is a science website; if the best you can do is cite the I Ching, then you have really missed the point.

Why not just admit you were wrong?

« Last Edit: 06/09/2010 20:58:56 by Bored chemist »
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Offline Geezer

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« Reply #38 on: 06/09/2010 21:17:19 »
BC,

When you said "yardstick", were you referring to the US Yard or the Imperial Yard?
There ain'ta no sanity clause, and there ain'ta no centrifugal force ćther.

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Offline Variola

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« Reply #39 on: 06/09/2010 22:01:54 »
BC,

When you said "yardstick", were you referring to the US Yard or the Imperial Yard?

Either way, if a any man here has a penis that is comparable to a yard stick I want his number...  [:D]
  A potty-mouthed, impertinent female who thinks she is God's gift to men" -JimBob

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Offline Geezer

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« Reply #40 on: 06/09/2010 22:19:46 »
BC,

When you said "yardstick", were you referring to the US Yard or the Imperial Yard?

Either way, if a any man here has a penis that is comparable to a yard stick I want his number...  [:D]

It's just as well it was yards rather than cubits. Then we'd be talking about biblical proportions.
There ain'ta no sanity clause, and there ain'ta no centrifugal force ćther.

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Offline MartinTheK

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« Reply #41 on: 07/09/2010 04:59:08 »
Res Ipsa Loquitur

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Offline Geezer

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« Reply #42 on: 07/09/2010 06:04:23 »
I try not to brag about it.
There ain'ta no sanity clause, and there ain'ta no centrifugal force ćther.

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Offline Bored chemist

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« Reply #43 on: 07/09/2010 07:08:09 »
Res Ipsa Loquitur
It speaks for itself that Martin started off with a false statement "The epidermal layer is composed of dead cells-whose function is to keep things (i.e. like NO molecules) out of the body.".
There were also a few ad hom attacks thrown in.
 
Then refused to accept scientific  literature that shows he was wrong.
He also tried to argue that because he has problems with it, nobody would respond to GTN.
He failed to accept that argument by analogy, while strictly not logical proof, is strong evidence in favour of an idea.

Yep, Res Ipsa Loquitur indeed.
« Last Edit: 07/09/2010 07:16:11 by Bored chemist »
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Offline Geezer

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« Reply #44 on: 07/09/2010 08:00:54 »
Quod Erat Demonstrandum
There ain'ta no sanity clause, and there ain'ta no centrifugal force ćther.

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Offline Variola

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« Reply #45 on: 07/09/2010 08:02:57 »
Biggus Dickus.
  A potty-mouthed, impertinent female who thinks she is God's gift to men" -JimBob

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Offline Geezer

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« Reply #46 on: 07/09/2010 08:21:50 »
Biggus Dickus.

You can't drag Palin into this! Don't you realize that could destabilize the entire Western World?
There ain'ta no sanity clause, and there ain'ta no centrifugal force ćther.

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Offline Variola

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« Reply #47 on: 07/09/2010 08:37:57 »
Biggus Dickus.

You can't drag Palin into this! Don't you realize that could destabilize the entire Western World?

But have you met his wife? Incontinentia Buttockus? 
  A potty-mouthed, impertinent female who thinks she is God's gift to men" -JimBob

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Offline Geezer

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« Reply #48 on: 07/09/2010 09:43:10 »
But have you met his wife? Incontinentia Buttockus? 

Not in person, but I introduced her to Benny Hill.
There ain'ta no sanity clause, and there ain'ta no centrifugal force ćther.

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Offline Variola

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« Reply #49 on: 07/09/2010 10:00:36 »
 [;D] [;D]

Did I not mention I have LoB tourettes.... it is not good to encourage me  [:o)]

Welease Bwian.


OT, (ish) why do people insist on carrying on with a false argument rather than admit their are wrong? What is it in peoples psyche that makes them continue to look more and more foolish rather than just say " Hey you might be right there-you learn something new every day"  [???] I have seen it on every forum I have ever visited and on all manner of topics.
  A potty-mouthed, impertinent female who thinks she is God's gift to men" -JimBob