driving lessons /survey

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Offline ukmicky

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driving lessons /survey
« on: 26/11/2005 16:13:38 »
Are driving lessons a big con designed just to make money out of those wishing to take there test.

When I passed my test just over 20 years ago according to my instructer at the time,they reckoned it took on average 10hours of tuition to pass your driving test. It took me eight hours, eight driving lessons to reach the required level before I passed my test and that was with the cost of each lesson at £7.50 an hour if I remember correctly. And most of my friends who I asked who took there tests 10 or more years ago on average passed there tests after around ten hours of tuition.

My daughter is currently learning to drive and these days they reckon on average it takes about 35 hours for average 18/19 year old at £24 UK pounds an hour before they reach the required standard.

Why the difference?

Itís almost the same test with just one extra reversing manoeuvre, almost the same standard of driving required, but why the extra 25 hours of tuition and now at 24 pounds an hour. Itís a lot of money.
Itís a big con if you ask me.

How many hours of tuition did it take you before you were allowed to take your test and then pass(hopefully) and what year did you take it in.
Is there much diference in other countries


Michael                                      
« Last Edit: 26/11/2005 16:47:13 by ukmicky »

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Offline DoctorBeaver

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Re: driving lessons /survey
« Reply #1 on: 27/11/2005 23:38:28 »
It was a long time ago but I'm pretty sure it was only 6-8 lessons.
Just as an extra to this thread, none of my friends when I was younger took more than 2 attempts to pass their test & most passed 1st time. Not only do people seem to take a lot more lessons these days, but the pass rate is much lower. People that I know who have taken their tests in the last 10 years or so have taken 2,3 or 4 attempts to pass. None of them has passed 1st time although I don't think their driving is any worse than people I knew when I was younger.
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Offline neilep

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Re: driving lessons /survey
« Reply #2 on: 29/11/2005 14:15:26 »
Best drivers past second time !!!

Hmmm...yep..mefinx it was about 9 or 10 lessons...with perhaps a couple thrown in for good measure prior to my second test.

At the time, I would have like to have taken one of those intensive week things !

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Offline DoctorBeaver

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Re: driving lessons /survey
« Reply #3 on: 29/11/2005 19:34:28 »
Seriously - there was a driving school where I used to live called the Impact School of Motoring and their sign advertised "crash courses available"
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Offline ukmicky

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Re: driving lessons /survey
« Reply #4 on: 30/11/2005 00:57:09 »
It just seems to me that it all a big money making scam, either that or the standard of driving instructors these days has taken a nosedive. Thereís no reason why it should take 25 extra hour of tuition these days compared to when I learnt because the test has hardly changed.

P's

doc
I remember impact school of motoring, when i used to live near wembley ,
Michael                                      
« Last Edit: 04/12/2005 19:14:29 by ukmicky »

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Offline DoctorBeaver

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Re: driving lessons /survey
« Reply #5 on: 04/12/2005 16:32:59 »
Michael - I used to live in Harrow. That's where I saw it
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sharkeyandgeorge

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Re: driving lessons /survey
« Reply #6 on: 04/12/2005 16:40:18 »
i just passed my test last year (20 lessons £36 pound a pop) but althought he practical may not be hugely diffrent we now have a theory test and a hazard awareness my instructor used part of my lessons to prepare me for these aswell with homework and cdroms i passed quite quickly in 3 months on my second attempt but firmly belive i should have passed on the first the only reason i didnt was slow takeoff from roadside which could have slowed other driver (road was deserted but whatever) the test may be the same but the rules are alot tighter. also did you know that if you pass your test now your only allowed three point in the first two years get four and your banned for six months and have to retake all your tests


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Offline DoctorBeaver

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Re: driving lessons /survey
« Reply #7 on: 04/12/2005 18:05:18 »
quote:
also did you know that if you pass your test now your only allowed three point in the first two years get four and your banned for six months and have to retake all your tests


I most certainly did not realise that
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Offline ukmicky

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Re: driving lessons /survey
« Reply #8 on: 04/12/2005 19:14:58 »
doc Its a small world, as they say[:)]

Michael                                      
« Last Edit: 04/12/2005 20:43:42 by ukmicky »

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Offline simeonie

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Re: driving lessons /survey
« Reply #9 on: 14/12/2005 17:12:01 »
Apparently driving test duded have to fail a certain percentage of drivers a week! I don't know if it is true but that is what I was told. So you are probably best taking a test on the monday.

Also I think sharkeyandgeorge.... you got ripped off. My sister's lessons are £16 and so are everyone elses I know. MEh

I will pass 1st time withought any lessons *cough cough* Althuogh they may be putting it up to 18 to take your test. And you may have to have 40 lessons is what they are trying to do.

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Offline caalm

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Re: driving lessons /survey
« Reply #10 on: 20/12/2005 17:07:34 »
I just took my first attempt at the practical test, and failed! Everybody I've spoken to (including my instructor) tell me that the test is being made stricter every year. Although what is being tested is the same, you could fail today for something that in earlier years would only have raised an eyebrow. I failed because I touched the kerb in the reverse-into-side-road maneouvre, no mistakes allowed there. My driving otherwise was as good as could be (just got 2 minor faults) However, I was also warned that at one place, when I moved off from a stationary position, there was a car behind that had to slow down when it caught up with me. Never mind the fact that I reached the maximum speed limit for the road (30mph) before the guy caught up, and that he was doing 50mph and had to slow down to 30mph. I'm supposed to watch out for other people's mistakes and the responsibility of ensuring that an accident doesn't happen lies with me (irrespective of whether the other party is drunk, on drugs, going at twice the speed limit or just being a jerk!.
One mistake is enough today to fail, and the mistakes I'm talking about here are things that almost ALL seasoned drivers who hold a licence probably commit several times a day. They have made it difficult for new drivers to get a licence, in order to compensate for the plenty of bad drivers that have managed to get a licence in the last 20-30 years. I read a report that stated that 90% of licensed drivers (who got their licence before theory test was introduced) failed to clear the theory test without studying (although you would expect them to pass without studying, by virtue of their experience of driving). The report also said that based on observation of driving skills, 50% of the licensed drivers would 'DEFINITELY' fail the test if they were to take it today. I've found that most drivers do not adhere to the rule of 'Should not cross the arms on the steering' while turning, yet if you do it 2-3 times in the test today, you fail!
So many people touch the kerb to get an idea of how far the wheel of the car is, yet if you do it once today in the test, you fail! If you wait too long at a roundabout, you fail for hesitation, if you squeeze in between two cars, you fail for aggression. You have to get it JUST RIGHT, the only problem is that the definition of JUST RIGHT depends on the tester, and that varies with the personality of an individual.
There is no choice however, I will have to spend the £1000 pounds and the 6-8 months to get a licence, sometimes I even think if it's worth it if, like me, one plans to drive in the UK only for a few years before returning to one's native country (bear in mind that I already have a licence for my native country).
 

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Offline ukmicky

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Re: driving lessons /survey
« Reply #11 on: 20/12/2005 22:00:36 »
Hi pal. cheers for the reply,  

There's still not much difference going by what you've written, it basically the same test and you fail for the same reasons now as you would have when i took my test 22 years ago.


I still reckon its a big money making scam designed so the instructors and schools can make as much money out of the pupils as possible.
Take my daughters instructor for instance, according to him it takes between 40 to 50 lessons before somebody is ready for the test. That's 30 to 40 more lessons than it took when i passed.
My daughters instructor wouldn't even allow her drive away from the house or back again until she had completed 8 hours of tuition and during that time she was restricted to the same side roads. When i learnt to drive it was straight on to the main roads and i drove away from my house and back again on every occasion. OK the main roads may be a bit busier now, however hammersmith roundabout was just as busy then as it is now.

As for the theory, i've  failed the theory test every time ive put the practice test cd in my computer ,but since i passed there have been lots of new signs and regulations brought in.
You also pick up bad habits after you pass your test and for a newly qualified driver things like crossing yours hands could be deadly , however my driving ability and hazard perception  has improved so much since i passed my test that most of them arn't dangerous for me to use and in general are only used when its safe to do so.[:)]
   
Maybe it would be better and cheaper for you and my daughter to take your tests in another country in the EU. I wonder how hard it is in france for instance.
 
ps Good luck with your next test

Michael                                      
« Last Edit: 20/12/2005 22:06:09 by ukmicky »

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sharkeyandgeorge

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Re: driving lessons /survey
« Reply #12 on: 28/12/2005 11:46:33 »
small point but crossing your arms is not a failable fault i do it all the time and did it on my test ( ive got a small driving arc due to excellent power steering ) indeed inspectors are not allowed to fail you for this however the problem with crossing your arms is many people dont do it properly take it to far round and as soon as you do you verge into diminished control where you are not in a position to immediatly respond to changes on the road that definatly is a fail

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Offline Simmer

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Re: driving lessons /survey
« Reply #13 on: 28/12/2005 12:56:12 »
quote:
Originally posted by ukmicky


I still reckon its a big money making scam designed so the instructors and schools can make as much money out of the pupils as possible.
Take my daughters instructor for instance, according to him it takes between 40 to 50 lessons before somebody is ready for the test. That's 30 to 40 more lessons than it took when i passed.



Maybe, partly, but I think the main reason is that the safety culture has changed over the last twenty years.  Motoring is now just about the most dangerous thing people are required to do.  About 40,000 deaths across Europe last year and forty times that many with significant injuries. God knows how many accidents in all that equates to but it must be several millions.  

Clearly many drivers are not really competent but the economy depends on them getting behind the wheel anyway!  Sooner or later they will automate the whole thing (Giove A launched today!) but until then all they can do is improve the training.

Cars have been made easier to drive and protection in case of an accident have been improved but really the only way to bring the process into line with modern expectations is either to improve the quality of driving or automate it.
 

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drkev

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Re: driving lessons /survey
« Reply #14 on: 29/12/2005 02:51:32 »
Learning to drive and driving tests etc are a big scam! My driving instructor told me that most are scam artists. I passed my test 3 1/2 years ago after 6 lessons at £10 a lesson. I got 100% on my theory test and taught myself the theory element with a good road sign book and a practice question book to get used to the types of questions asked.

Driving assessors do not have to fail a certain number each year, there is no quota. But some are complete w@nkers who are miserable b@stards and will fail you for even looking odd.

My friend failed because a car pulled out in front of him and he had to do an emergency stop (I know because I was in the back for moral support!) Never mind the fact that He spotted the other car and performed a correct emergency stop and avoided the car completely. The examiner failed him for observation. Not his fault the prik pulled out in front of him and obviously his observation was good or He wouldn't have seen it to avoid it!

The average number of lessons now is 60 at an average cost of £20 a lesson (phoned my instructor and asked him who by the way is still charging only £10 a lesson and averages 15 lessons to get students through their test. Every one of his students has passed first time!)

I now have to sit categories C1 and D1 to drive my new ambulances at a cost of £4000 and 80 hours this is a fu*king con because my mate doesn't have to do it as He passed his test in 1997. So it is OK for him to drive a 7.5 tonne vehicle with no training but I can't drive a 4 tonne vehicle and I am an advanced Police trained blue light user.

Along with the rising cost of running a car, it is simply the Government's way of reducing car usage. Don't believe me? Ask them how much they make each year from congestion charging!

I was glad I would never have to take another driving test ever again but ho hum I have 2 in February for my Cat C1 and D1 AND I can't even tow a caravan yet some crusty old fart who can't even see beyond his bonnet can!!!

Live long and Love life

Kevin Fisher

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Offline Carolyn

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Re: driving lessons /survey
« Reply #15 on: 10/01/2006 06:03:22 »
How old do you have to be in the UK to take a drivers test? Are you required to take driving lessons?


« Last Edit: 04/03/2008 02:36:01 by Carolyn »
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Offline neilep

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Re: driving lessons /survey
« Reply #16 on: 10/01/2006 06:07:24 »
Hi Carolyn....Certainly not required to take lessons but it is of course adviseable. 17 is the age when you can drive on the road legally.



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Offline Carolyn

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Re: driving lessons /survey
« Reply #17 on: 10/01/2006 06:12:01 »
Thanks Neil.  Here in USA you get a learners permit (must drive with an adult 21 years or older in front seat for one year) at 15 after passing a written test.  At 16, if you pass the actual road test, you get a real drivers license.  This could actually be part of my insomnia problem, as I have a 17 year old that stays on the road constantly.

Carolyn
« Last Edit: 10/01/2006 06:18:32 by Carolyn »
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Offline neilep

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Re: driving lessons /survey
« Reply #18 on: 10/01/2006 06:21:33 »
15 !!!.....WOW...even accompanied by an adult !!..and 16 when you pass the test !!...cripes !!...



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Offline airkilometres

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Re: driving lessons /survey
« Reply #19 on: 10/01/2006 10:57:27 »
''Never in the history of driving instruction has so much bovine scatology been uttered by so many about so few''

Says Sir Winston Churchill, looking down from the heavens.
 

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Offline hedgehog

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Re: driving lessons /survey
« Reply #20 on: 11/01/2006 08:14:19 »
going by a lot of the driving I see out there where some people do not even posses the control skills to be able to keep to a 30mph speed limit for example, or the ability to understand how talking on a mobile while driving can kill somebody and whats this latest craze, to drive with the fog lights on illegaly in non fog. I believe some people when they say they have only had a handful of lessons, it really does show.

Who would put thier son/daughter on the road today with only 6 hours behind the wheel. Certainly not the driving test examiner.
 

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Offline Carolyn

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Re: driving lessons /survey
« Reply #21 on: 11/01/2006 13:19:59 »
I agree - driving laws in US are much to relaxed.  Although my daughter was allowed to have a license @16, we didn't allow her to have any passengers for the first year.

« Last Edit: 04/03/2008 02:36:58 by Carolyn »
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Offline The Chief

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Re: driving lessons /survey
« Reply #22 on: 12/01/2006 19:53:19 »
And you consider yourself professsional UK Micky? With the attitude you have for your childs' learning experience I would not be surprised if you are having some "social" problems!

The driving test and methods of learning to drive have changed quite markedly, especially since 1995. Prior to then almost anyone could have passed the driving test due to one thing alone - the system of marking of faults. Back then you could commit as many (minor) driver errors as you liked and would not fail, however, nowadays if you commit the same fault 3 times that can and almost always does become a serious fault. 1 serious or dangerous fault means fail!!!

Think back honestly and ask yourself if you notice anything different about driving when you passed your test to driving now?
I passed my test around the same time as you about 22 years ago. I know for a fact that if I drove on a driving test with those same standards I passed with back then that I would now fail the test quite drastically - and deservedly so.

Take a look at CRASH statistics and make your own mind up as to whether or not a tougher testing and training regime was required.

As for your comparison to the price of driving lessons, I almost laughed out loud at your incredibly stupid comment...think how much a new car cost to purchase, insure, fuel costs etc etc...the list goes on. Have you asked your own insurance company how much it would be for your learner driver daughter to be added to your insurance or better still ask how much it would cost if she had her own car...then faint!!!

Driving instructors are a very easy target to take a pop at, it is all to easy to make inaccurate comparisons with when we learned to drive to todays roads and standards required to pass. As for price, I reckon if instructors charged more like £50 an hour it would reflect their profession and the increased cost of living more accurately and this would be much fairer.

I would not want my sons on the road alone with 6 - 10 hours of training not when I have to drive to and from work and see all the other idiots who subscribe to your way of thinking driving on the roads today...take some responsibility man for your kids and get your daughter properly prepared for the test.

Incidently, after reading your mince, I took a look at newbielink:http://www.dsa.gov.uk [nonactive] you should take a look at the DL25 that is the examiners marking sheet, thank goodness I don't have to take a test again now. The DSA is the Driving Standards Agency, a government body and part of the Dept for Transport, the website makes interesting reading.

Finally, you should take a look at the European parliament too, legislation is being passed right now which means that all drivers will be re-assessed every 5 years, hoorah, it might just keep idiots like you off our roads and they might just become a safer place again.

Stay safe out there.

The Chief.

« Last Edit: 12/01/2006 19:56:19 by The Chief »
 

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Offline ukmicky

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Re: driving lessons /survey
« Reply #23 on: 12/01/2006 20:11:39 »
Chief

Thank you for your input, i think .

And After i have pick myself up off the floor and composed myself, which i hope will allow me to reply in a non aggressive manner i shall respond.
[:0][:(!]


But I would like to say before I get down to responding to your attack , that after reading your reply in full , if your standard of driving is anything like the manner of  your reply then I wouldnít like to be a passenger in you car or a victim of your road rage.



Michael                 HAPPY NEW YEAR                    
« Last Edit: 12/01/2006 23:12:58 by ukmicky »

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Offline ukmicky

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Re: driving lessons /survey
« Reply #24 on: 12/01/2006 22:24:50 »
So much to reply too, but so little interest in doing so due to the manner of your response.


quote:
 And you consider yourself professional UK Micky?

Am I a professional driver, yes I suppose I am as I drive for a living, I also hold a hgv class 1 licence which I donít use as I  donít enjoy driving large vehicles anymore.
_____________________________________________________________
 
quote:
  With the attitude you have for your childs' learning experience I would not be surprised if you are having some "social" problems!


Got me their, but only because I feel my response would be inappropriate for posting on this forum.

But after reading your reply, I feel if you feel I have social problems then maybe my thoughts on your mental instability could also be just.
________________________________________________________________
quote:
The driving test and methods of learning to drive have changed quite markedly, especially since 1995. Prior to then almost anyone could have passed the driving test due to one thing alone - the system of marking of faults. Back then you could commit as many (minor) driver errors as you liked and would not fail, however, nowadays if you commit the same fault 3 times that can and almost always does become a serious fault. 1 serious or dangerous fault means fail!!!

Think back honestly and ask yourself if you notice anything different about driving when you passed your test to driving now?
I passed my test around the same time as you about 22 years ago. I know for a fact that if I drove on a driving test with those same standards I passed with back then that I would now fail the test quite drastically - and deservedly so.  

____________________________________________________________

The standards in my day were quite tough even though I donít seem to remember them as easy as you seem to. However even twenty years ago lots of people failed their first tests, so the test wasnít that easy.  I failed my first for being too cautious.
Anyway my post started with the line ďAre driving lessons a big conĒ Not, driving lessons ARE a big con.
   
_____________________________________________________________
quote:
As for your comparison to the price of driving lessons, I almost laughed out loud at your incredibly stupid comment...think how much a new car cost to purchase, insure, fuel costs etc etc...the list goes on.


Maybe It would be laughable if it didnít cost 17 year olds  £1500 to pass their tests and more if they are unlucky enough to fail the first time.

New car, Are you mad.. (donít answer that I already know the answer ) What 17 year old  buys a new car when they have just passed their test, they use mums or dads.
 
quote:
Have you asked your own insurance company how much it would be for your learner driver daughter to be added to your insurance or better still ask how much it would cost if she had her own car...then faint!!!


I did Admiral charged me £200 pounds which is quite reasonable

 
quote:
    Driving instructors are a very easy target to take a pop at, it is all to easy to make inaccurate comparisons with when we learned to drive to todayís roads and standards required to pass. As for price, I reckon if instructors charged more like £50 an hour it would reflect their profession and the increased cost of living more accurately and this would be much fairer.


So thatís £400 for my daughter and her instructor to go round in circleís for her first 8 lessons does that sound reasonable to you

reprint from earlier
ďMy daughterís instructor wouldn't even allow her drive away from the house or back again until she had completed 8 hours of tuition and during that time she was restricted to the same side roads. When i learnt to drive it was straight on to the main roads and i drove away from my house and back again on every occasion. OK the main roads may be a bit busier now, however Hammersmith roundabout was just as busy then as it is now.Ē

____________________________________________




 
quote:
I would not want my sons on the road alone with 6 - 10 hours of training not when I have to drive to and from work and see all the other idiots who subscribe to your way of thinking driving on the roads today...take some responsibility man for your kids and get your daughter properly prepared for the test.


I wouldnít like my daughter on the road on her own after 6 to 10 hours of driving tuition either. I'm not be happy for my daughter to even drive down the road with her instructor next to her, however I have to be sensible and allow her to lead her own life ,so I would be ok  if she was to pass her test after 20 or so lessons because my daughter is a very sensible, level headed and highly intelligent person,and I know numerous people who have passed their tests at around the twenty hour mark who are able and competent drivers

 
quote:
 Incidentally, after reading your mince, I took a look at http://www.dsa.gov.uk you should take a look at the DL25 that is the examiners marking sheet, thank goodness I don't have to take a test again now. The DSA is the Driving Standards Agency, a government body and part of the Dept for Transport, the website makes interesting reading.

After reading your mince,  (doesn't seem appropriate as I quite like mince)i  shall do the same and at the same time i will see if they have a comparable sheet from 20 years ago

 
quote:
  Finally, you should take a look at the European parliament too, legislation is being passed right now which means that all drivers will be re-assessed every 5 years, hoorah, it might just keep idiots like you off our roads and they might just become a safer place again.



More legislation, more crap from Brussels,  more ways to control us and make us poorer

 
quote:
 Stay safe out there.
You too

[:)]

PS We have just changed my daughters driving instructor to someone who was recommended to us through a number of sources and as it turns out also happens to be a friend of my wife's.(women) she charges ten pound less than bsm, whom she once worked for, and on average her pupils pass after 25 hours half the time that bsm like to take before they put their pupils through.  

« Last Edit: 12/01/2006 22:45:57 by ukmicky »

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Offline Carolyn

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Re: driving lessons /survey
« Reply #25 on: 12/01/2006 23:30:30 »
Well said Michael.  Couldn't agree more.

Carolyn
Carolyn

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Offline .z

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Re: driving lessons /survey
« Reply #26 on: 14/01/2006 15:51:52 »
quote:
Are driving lessons a big con designed just to make money out of those wishing to take there test.

No
 
quote:
When I passed my test just over 20 years ago.... It took me eight hours, eight driving lessons to reach the required level before I passed my test.... most of my friends who I asked who took there tests 10 or more years ago on average passed there tests after around ten hours of tuition.

Ahh! The mythical 10 hour average to pass. That old-chestnut was doing the rounds in the sixties. I blame free-love and psychodelia myself.
quote:
My daughter is currently learning to drive and these days they reckon on average it takes about 35 hours for average 18/19 year old at £24 UK pounds an hour before they reach the required standard.

The "they" you refer to is the Government. Their recommendation is, that on average each learner driver needs a minimum of 2 hours professional tuition per year of their age, plus as much private practice as they can get. You'll find that is the Governments recommended average; whatever the lesson price.
quote:
Why the difference?
Itís almost the same test with just one extra reversing manoeuvre, almost the same standard of driving required...

Almost the same as is not the same as -  the same as. The driving test today is tougher than it was just five years ago let alone over twenty years ago.
quote:
...but why the extra 25 hours of tuition and now at 24 pounds an hour. Itís a lot of money. Itís a big con if you ask me.

£600 for a life skill. Sounds like a genuine e-bay bargain to me. If £600 is too high, then what is the value of a daughters' life nowadays? £192?
quote:
How many hours of tuition did it take you before you were allowed to take your test and then pass(hopefully) and what year did you take it in.

1st time pass after 26 lessons in 1981. But they were quoting 1.5 lessons per year of age in those days. I guess I'm just your average Mrs. Average. [:D]
 
quote:
Is there much diference in other countries

More than you can shake a stick at.





Swimming in a sea of sh1t? Keep ya gob shut then!
« Last Edit: 14/01/2006 19:13:10 by .z »
Swimming in a sea of sh1t? Keep ya gob shut then!

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Offline Grumpy

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Re: driving lessons /survey
« Reply #27 on: 16/01/2006 19:36:29 »
Wake up UKMicky,  you are talking crap. "TEN HOURS" I bet if you told the truth you would agree that you had the basic skills in clutch control and had been driving around before you went for any driving lessons.

To make statements about how much lessons are being a con is a bit stupid,  think about the cost of a vehicle, Depreciation, insurance, ADI registration fees, fuel, servicing, admin, phone, office costs, etc,  it all adds up to an expensive time.  Then of course the Instructor needs to be paid a reasonable wage.  How much do you get an hour?  after all the outgoing costs I bet the Driving Instuctor is way behind you in the list of earners.

The test now is vastly diferrent to the one you sat,  Theory, Hazard Perception, Reverse Park into Bay, Reverse Park into a space between vehicles, a drive at Nationl Speed limit in Rural areas all add up to a test that takes longer than it did 20 years ago.

I suspect you are one of those idiot drivers who never uses indicators, waffles on the phone constantly, and stiks one finger up if any body has a dig at you.


Grumpy

 

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Offline ukmicky

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Re: driving lessons /survey
« Reply #28 on: 16/01/2006 23:40:22 »
Hi Grumpy. Your certainly not Bashful with your words are you, It seems I've hit a few raw nerve's.(i wonder why)[:)]  
Maybe your friend the Doc should give you something to make you Happy again ,but be careful if you drive though because medication can on occasions  make you Sleepy or Dopey, you don't want to crash your car do you . but you could always tell the policeman that you didnt see the lamppost due to you being a  bit Sneezy at the time. [:D]

I  had 8 lessons before i took  my first driving test which i failed, a couple of weeks later i retook my test and passed after having short lesson on the way to the test centre. My wife also passed i think around ten years ago after 15 lessons.

The very first time i sat in a driving seat of a car with the engine on was on the day of my first lesson. My only other experience before that with a clutch was when my friend let me have a go on his 250 cc motorbike, i gave it to much accelerator let the clutch off to quick and ended up on the floor with the bike on top of me. I didnt try again.

My standard of driving since i passed my test is more than likely better than yours.
I have never had even a single point on my licence in all my years of driving . i'm not saying i always stick to the laws of the road (who does) however on the occasions when i have flouted the law(like the occasional speeding) i make sure it is safe to do so.

PS say hello to snow white for me, I bet you must be DRIVING her round the bend by now.[:D]


Michael                 HAPPY NEW YEAR                    
« Last Edit: 17/01/2006 02:42:42 by ukmicky »

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Offline Grumpy

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Re: driving lessons /survey
« Reply #29 on: 17/01/2006 19:28:12 »
Mmmm  sounds like your a real cocky MetalMicky,  I also hold LGV1, PCV1 Track Lic and class myself as a reasonable driver.  You seem to live in the land of dreams.  I see you do not respond to costs,  perhaps you have realised that it is costly to drive.  If you are so good my sugestion to you is,  teach your Daughter yourself.  Just think of all the savings,  and you could do it all on a Saturday and she could take her test on the Monday.

Best of luck and watch the paintwork  "Not on the car"  on your shiny ego.
 

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Offline The Chief

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Re: driving lessons /survey
« Reply #30 on: 18/01/2006 00:23:43 »
My Dear Friend Micky[:o)],


To quote you below and reply.
Itís almost the same test with just one extra reversing manoeuvre[:I] - WRONG, the tests taken today are vastly different!

almost the same standard of driving required,[:(] - WRONG, a MUCH higher standard of driving must be displayed!!!

but why the extra 25 hours of tuition[:D] - At last, a sensible question, well done. Look at the learner driving syllabus, available from the DSA - that's the driving standards agency or visit the highway code online.

and now at 24 pounds an hour[:0] - Haven't you noticed how other prices have changed in the last 20 odd years? It's called inflation!!!

Itís a lot of money [B)]- How much is a daughter worth these days???
Itís a big con if you ask me - The only con here is the con that you are perpetuating regards learning to drive!!![|)]

With Respect,

The Chief.
 

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Offline ukmicky

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Re: driving lessons /survey
« Reply #31 on: 18/01/2006 03:10:56 »
Hello. The way I see it is like this.
 
Maybe there are too many driving instructors and not enough work, so in order to keep most of the instructors in work and the schools earning money  the big schools increase the recommended number of driving lessons  before a learner sits his or her test .
You could give a pupil 100 lessons and still legitimately say he or she is still in need of tuition because driving is a skill that you never stop learning. But once a driver gets to a certain level where they can competently drive and pass their test then there's no point in holding them back and they are better off sitting and passing their test so they can get on the road on their own, as they will probably learn more in them first two weeks of driving on their own than they would if they had an instructor sitting next to them for the next 20.
 
My daughter can get in my car with me or my wife beside her and drive sensibly and safely, and I would be happy for her to drive alone on her own now if she were to pass her test, and if she were to sit her test right now she could probably pass it and that's after only 20 lessons.
The only thing that could prevent her from passing first time would be her nerves on the day. There is no way she needs another 30 lessons and will within the next two weeks apply for her test on the advice of her present instructor.    

The reason for this topic was to ask a few questions in order to see if my opinions were just or not, so if you disagree then thatís fine.  As long as you donít try to verbally assassinate me [:)]then I will listen to what you have to say. My opinion may  be be wrong  as far as you are concerned, but unfortunately for you Iím not the only person who thinks it . So if you wish to put the record straight according to you then please do so .I have no problems with that, but for safety's sake maybe I should remove my picture from my profile, I can imagine 100s of irate driving instructors driving around with my picture pasted to there dashboards preying for the day when they see me in their rear view mirror [:D]


Michael                 HAPPY NEW YEAR                    
« Last Edit: 18/01/2006 04:18:45 by ukmicky »

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Offline sdella

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Re: driving lessons /survey
« Reply #32 on: 18/01/2006 15:17:12 »
It is a rip off in Germany too if you ask me. I did my driving licence in Germany last year and paid 24 Euros per lesson (45 min). I had to do over 35 hours and I had to pay as well around 200 Euros for my book and for the exams!
I guess they are digging out money from everywhere!

In Greece though my friends said that they paid max 15 Euros per lesson  and they did up to 15-20 lessons. Also the exam fees were lower.

 

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Offline sdella

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Re: driving lessons /survey
« Reply #33 on: 18/01/2006 15:24:10 »
quote:
Originally posted by sdella

It is a rip off in Germany too if you ask me. I did my driving licence in Germany last year and paid 24 Euros per lesson (45 min). I had to do over 35 hours and I had to pay as well around 200 Euros for my book and for the exams!
I guess they are digging out money from everywhere!

In Greece though my friends said that they paid max 15 Euros per lesson  and they did up to 15-20 lessons. Also the exam fees were lower.



Furthermore I disagree with all those people who tell you "how much your daughter worths now". They could do a more effective, less expensive work/service that meets the needs of the new drivers that are learners. How much your daughter worths now it depends on her and how she is applying the skills that she learnt. The same applies to all of us. Wanna be a careful driver? Then it is up to us to try to be that! I also believe as a fairly new driver that I learn every time I am on the road...so it will continue for the rest of my life I guess.
 

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Offline The Chief

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Re: driving lessons /survey
« Reply #34 on: 18/01/2006 16:00:26 »
Hello Micky,

Firstly, I did not verbally assassinate you, I do however, have a very strong disagreement with your opinion about learning to drive, if I have upset or distressed you with any of my humour intended comments I unreservedly apologise, I do not apologise for disagreeing with you!

Now, this debate is getting more interesting, I do not think any driving instructor would give you a second thought so I think you may be safe there but then again...you never know when a learner driver might miss the brake pedal and press the accellerator instead!!!

Quote:
Maybe there are too many driving instructors and not enough work, so in order to keep most of the instructors in work and the schools earning money the big schools increase the recommended number of driving lessons before a learner sits his or her test.

Reply:
The Register of Approved Driving Instructors has hardly changed through the years until recently, see DSA quote below:
In recent years approximately 2,500 new ADIs qualify each year, with some 4,000 leaving the Register in each of the past two years. The great majority of these leave of their own accord; around 500 pa are removed for failing to attend a periodical Check Test of their continued ability and fitness to give instruction or for unsatisfactory performance or conduct.
Department for Transport.


Quote:
You could give a pupil 100 lessons and still legitimately say he or she is still in need of tuition because driving is a skill that you never stop learning.
Reply:
Driving is a skill you never stop learning, I agree totally, learner drivers however, do need to acheive a level of ability in order to effectively deal with all car control skills, road and traffic proceedures and all other road users in order to confidently acheive a test pass, no driving instructor who is good at the job will ever present a pupil for test who is not ready and I only wish more of them would do the same. I feel sorry for the instructor who has to succumb to the pressure of over bearing parents against thier better judgement.

I hope you understand the basis of my argument here and I suppose I should inform you that I am with the Traffic Dept of the Police currently serving and I regularly see the results of poor driving standards where over 99% of crashes are caused by driver error.

Have fun on those roads now - but remember the blue light might just be keeping an eye out for you!!![:D]

Regards,

The Chief
 

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Offline Grumpy

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Re: driving lessons /survey
« Reply #35 on: 18/01/2006 16:21:03 »
Hello UKMicky,  at last we see reason behind what you have been saying.  Of course a person who is at the correct standard should apply for the Driving Test,  but you must remember that on "Average"  that could mean 40 + hrs with private practice.                                                                                                                                I am glad to hear that you feel safe with your Daughter and wish her all the best for her Test.  If she feels that the nerves will spoil her chances then try "The Bach Flower Rescue Remedy"  it works a treat and I have used at many interviews that I have attended.

I would not say there were to many DIs out teaching,  just that some have some very bad standards.  They are caught out in the end but it takes time.                                      
                                                                                                                                        It may interest you to know that Instructors are Graded 1-6  check testing takes place about every 4 years and if an Instructor is not up to the standard they are removed from the Register.  They are of course given the opportunity to improve.

Anyway,  end of subject for me.  I have aired my views and received some iteresting and comical replys.

My thought now is  "Are Resturants charging fair prices for the food they supply"

From The Grumpiest Man in Town

 

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Offline GOD

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Re: driving lessons /survey
« Reply #36 on: 18/01/2006 17:05:14 »
I passed first time, and doing a three point turn whilst creating the Cosmos is no easy task.

I am GOD..You are Not..I don't exist !!
It's tough not existing !!

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Offline Soul Surfer

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Re: driving lessons /survey
« Reply #37 on: 18/01/2006 20:09:17 »
It took me a couple of years four tries many moons ago when i was about 21. I had driven about 4000 miles in my own car by dragging friends to sit with me by the time I passed.  Mind you like my wife says, I am a bit spastic. [:)] My son booked his test and a set of lessons and passed first time in a week the moment he was 17 but he always was a natural ever since I put him on the little battery dogems at Bridlington when he was about 18 months old!

Learn, create, test and tell
evolution rules in all things
God says so!
« Last Edit: 18/01/2006 20:11:31 by Soul Surfer »
Learn, create, test and tell
evolution rules in all things
God says so!

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Offline ukmicky

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Re: driving lessons /survey
« Reply #38 on: 19/01/2006 03:01:13 »
quote:
ORIGINALLY POSTED BY THE CHIEF
I hope you understand the basis of my argument here and I suppose I should inform you that I am with the Traffic Dept of the Police


Just my luck i get the Chief and not the Constable. And I may as well forget about robbing the Tate [:)]

Michael                 HAPPY NEW YEAR                    

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Offline .z

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Re: driving lessons /survey
« Reply #39 on: 19/01/2006 16:30:08 »
ukmicky said:
quote:
...in order to see if my opinions were just or not...

My dad once said: "A wise man makes his own decisions, an ignorant man avoids the facts and forms opinionsĒ

Some of my personal favourites are,

da Vinci: "The greatest deception men suffer is from their own opinions.Ē

JFK: "Too often we... enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought.Ē

Arnold H. Glasgow: "The fewer the facts, the stronger the opinion.Ē

So before you share your "opinion" with us again, gather the facts necessary to keep a balanced view.

As Plato said: "Knowledge is true opinion.Ē

Safe driving and a Happy New Year [:o)]




Swimming in a sea of sh1t? Keep ya gob shut then!
Swimming in a sea of sh1t? Keep ya gob shut then!

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Offline upton

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Re: driving lessons /survey
« Reply #40 on: 19/01/2006 18:55:54 »
I passed my test the second time. Whilst I can see .z and grumpy and the chiefs point of view I have to say that Ukmicky makes some good points too. Can you all be right and wrong together ?

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Offline bigtim

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Re: driving lessons /survey
« Reply #41 on: 02/02/2006 18:51:44 »
It is a farce. They don't teach you to drive either; they teach you to pass a test and then you can learn how to drive properly.
25 lessons gone, nearly ready for test.

Big Tim
Big Tim

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Offline The Chief

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Re: driving lessons /survey
« Reply #42 on: 02/02/2006 19:17:16 »
quote:
Originally posted by bigtim

It is a farce. They don't teach you to drive either; they teach you to pass a test and then you can learn how to drive properly.
25 lessons gone, nearly ready for test.

Big Tim



Hi Tim,

If you really feel that your driving instructor is not actually teaching you to drive then it is high time you moved to another instructor. I can never understand why anyone would put up with substandard training or substandard workmanship in any sphere.

Tim, why do you feel that you are just being taught to pass a test?
Why do feel you are not being taught to drive?
How the h3ll do you expect to "learn" to drive after passing the test?
The consequences of trial and error can be fatal - I know, I have attended far too many RTA's to be passive on this subject. I am a traffic officer in the police force just in case you didn't read any of my other postings. My advice to you is simple - if you cannot drive competently, safely, under control and without any help from your instructor or supervising driver then you should not take the test because quite clearly you ain't ready for it yet.
I would advise you that by reading your post I think your problems are more down to your attitude though.
Let me wish you the very best of luck however for your big day and remember there are 40,000 driving instructors out there...go get a good one.

The Chief
 

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Re: driving lessons /survey
« Reply #43 on: 03/02/2006 17:16:08 »
So The Chief - have you ever felt compelled to drive at 158 mph to "familiarise" yourself with your car ?

Just curious...

Chris

"I never forget a face, but in your case I'll make an exception"
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I never forget a face, but in your case I'll make an exception - Groucho Marx

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Offline neilep

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Re: driving lessons /survey
« Reply #44 on: 03/02/2006 22:48:09 »
quote:
Originally posted by chris

So The Chief - have you ever felt compelled to drive at 158 mph to "familiarise" yourself with your car ?

Just curious...

Chris

"I never forget a face, but in your case I'll make an exception"
 - Groucho Marx



Good comment Chris....I was referring to the same point in another thread...was my doing 42 in a 40 zone on the M25 at 3am on a clear road, for which I received three points...more dangerous than testing a car at 159mph ?



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Men are the same as women, just inside out !

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Offline tonycsm

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Re: driving lessons /survey
« Reply #45 on: 11/02/2006 21:38:03 »
After reading the comments on the price of lessons and the usual fairy tales about driving skills I think they deserve a reply.
First of all, I have 25 years experience as a professional instructor, I charge one of the cheapest prices in my area and have more work than I can cope with! 85-90% of my work at any time comes from reccommendations and the rest through the internet etc. My students currently range from 17 to 70 years old, I also have three students with learning difficulties including one student with slight Downes Symdrome, so I cater for a large cross section of the community.

To be fair, some points raised are possibly genuine. For instance, there are indeed some instructors who will 'stretch out'the lessons to get extra money from the students but these are thankfully, in a minority.

The first advice I would offer is to do your homework and select an instructor who has been reccommended to you or has a good reputation. Price is no reflection of teaching ability, yet one of the first questions I am asked by potential customers who do not know me is "How much do you charge". Parents, understandably, who usually have to pay for the lessons of a 17 year old, have to watch how much they spend but, one can't put a price on an offsprings' life. So the answer is to get an instructor who is known for good quality instruction at a reasonable price.
It is fair to say that those young students who because of family circumstances, have to pay for their own lessons, usually absorb the required training far quicker than those who have their training paid for them! So maybe there is a lesson to be learned by this!

Most of the best instructors are independents' - they don't work for national companies - they rely upon their tuition skills rather than hiding behind a banner or franchise! Large national companies are more hit and miss in tuition quality too..there are some good instructors and there are some poor ones employed. They also use 'trainee' instructors on many occasions. I have seen some horrendous work done by trainee instructors, but this again is down to their supervisors or lack of training or supervision.

I never teach a pupil to just pass a test, but unfortunately, there are some students who will only just ever reach the test standard - they will always be potential accident causers or victims. This is due to every parent wanting their offspring to have a full driving licence.
Many parents however( though thankfully not all) don't really want their children to be taught to drive correctly, they want them to get passed their test as quickly as possible to save money so these parents can't place all the blame on instructors who do just teach to pass a test! This is probably the single most common pressure I face, but I will not compromise my training quality to meet the needs of greedy parents and will encourage them to take tuition with instructors who are more concerned about money than training quality!

 
From everyday observations in driver behaviour, I estimate that at least 30% of all drivers on our roads are just not mentally stable enough to hold a full licence. I wouldn't give these a television licence, let alone a driving licence.
Another 30% are very mediocre and only just get by, another 30% are slow 'one speed fits all' drivers and my estimation is that less than 10% of all drivers on our roads, really understand driving to a professional level.
 
Age is no indicator of driving ability - I have taken many 17 year old students for test who would leave many drivers of 50 years experience behind both in anticipation and road skill/handling. Very few of my young students ever become 'Boy Racers' because I talk to them and knock any wilder tendencies out of them. Instead I channel their abilities into responsible skills and where possible, teach them how to handle a car skillfully at higher speeds as well as sensibly in urban areas.

As for the number of lessons required to reach a competent standard to pass a test and much more, unaccompanied:
Each student has their own individual ability to absorb information. I sometimes have to tell students not to do things litterally many hundreds of times, yet they still do them wrong. On the other hand other students respond after telling them only once or twice, so there can never be a set amount of lessons for all students. I usually take between 16 - 32 hours to teach average students who don't or have very little access to driving any other vehicle than my tuition vehicle. That is between 2 and 4 working days tuition!! Not alot really!
I also offer intensive training ( 2 - 6 weeks) but will never take on a student for intensive training until I have assessed their suitability. Some students are just NOT suitable for intensive training and it would waste their money and time by trying to cram in lessons when they cannot absorb the training in the set time! I would advise any prospective student or parent arranging this form of driving tuition for their children to avoid any driving school which does not assess the driver first before accepting them for intensive training. It's like trying to choose unseen clothes or wallpaper over the telephone! It's just not possible to judge a person's ability without seeing them drive first! Also, some students may have previous driving experience and not need to spend money on a full course!
Taking an intensive course does not guarantee passing a driving test!

With regard to some of the comments on this topic. If I was allowing my children to learn to drive now I would want them to have the best tuition possible!!! I wouldn't be bothered about cost as long as it was justified. Surely a childs' life is more important than money! I know personally of one family who lost their child because of cutting lesson costs. I said their son wasn't ready to drive unaccompanied, so the parents applied for test themselves and he took it in the family car and managed to pass! Three months later he was tagically killed exactly due to the faults I said he had! So parents who whinge about costs should think again! The parents I mentioned have a lifetime to regret their eagerness to get their son passed his test! The worst part is that they could easily afford it!!! It would only have taken a few lessons to sort out his problems, but my advice went unheeded.
Simply, if a student needs assistance while learning, then they are not ready for test! They should be able to drive completely unaided, without advice from an accompanying driver! The examiner won't help them!

I hear drivers say " If I took my test again, then I'd fail"...well my advice is take some refresher lessons!!! It's an indication that they are driving incorrectly! Poor driving in many instances can be put down to a lack of discipline. A good driver will always retain discipline and not be tempted to metaphorically and literally cut corners no matter what the situation. The problem is that most people only learn to drive for their own needs. Once they have passed their driving test they are rarely bothered about maintaining let alone improving their driving skills. Combining a lack of discipline and a know it all attitude is a great recipe for an accident!
Many drivers have seriously dangerous faults without noticing - such as following too closely to the vehicle in front! This causes more road rage and accidents than anything else that I've witnessed yet 80% of all motorists do this regularly. The next time you are travelling along at 40mph in good dry conditions check to see if you can read the number plate of the vehicle in front. If it's not on the edge of your vision limit, then you are most probably following too close! Following too closely to the vehicle in front for instance is counter productive...it means more braking, poor vision ahead particularly when wishing to overtake and increases your risk of an accident many fold by not seeing potential hazards ahead!

New drivers will emulate the behaviour of the other experienced drivers on our roads if not trained correctly! Judging by some of the comments regarding this thread and the avaerage driver, many new drivers won't have a chance!

Another question...when did you last look at the Highway Code? This is by far the best book you'll ever read if you follow it's advice!
Yes experience will get poor drivers out of trouble in many occasions but just look at the statistics! 20% of all accidents involve novice drivers ( which is understandable) but that leaves the other 80%. They are the most experienced drivers yet they have most of the accidents, so maybe they should stop bleating how good drivers they are and have a real look at their driving before they pass the same attitudes onto their offspring! There is no such thing as a perfect driver. We all make mistakes at some point but by second checking such as emerging at junctions or mirrors before overtaking, then many serious accidents/deaths could easily be avoided. The problem is that driver arrogance gets in the way of road safety!


To those parents who's kids are taking the Theory Test...do it yourself and see how you come on! If you only answer 30 out of 35 questions correctly ( the pass mark) then quite frankly you aren't very good! Would you have faith in your doctor if he had a 15% hole in his knowledge? I want to see drivers who know and follow the rules of the Highway Code on our roads! If everyone knew and followed the rules of the Highway Code, 99.99% of all accidents and road deaths could be avoided!
Most accidents are caused by drivers who think they are much better than they are! It's not speed that kills - it's arrogance. Most drivers have 100mph cars with 50mph Brains!

When legislation arrives requiring every driver to retake their driving test at regular intervals, the comments we can see on this and other message boards from know it all drivers will soon dry up and maybe we'll find our roads are far safer.

One group of drivers who really infuriate other drivers are those who insist on driving at one speed, no matter how good the conditions. I regularly see drivers ( usually elderly ) who will not exceed 40mph no matter how clear the road! I am not in favour of wholesale speeding, but if the road is subject to say a 60mph limit, and the conditions are suitable, then they should reach it to reduce congestion and reduce frustrated drivers overtaking unsafely! They usually say, " I've beed driving 50 years without an accident you know"...well if that's the best they can do after 50 years then they should surrender their licence! Also, I wonder just how many accidents are caused indirectly by these drivers! They are just another form of the know it all!

Finally if I haven't offended everyone and you have someone near to you who is learning to drive, they are welcome to visit my website newbielink:http://www.cranswicksom.co.uk [nonactive] for a little helpful advice.
Regards...
Tony
« Last Edit: 11/02/2006 23:22:57 by tonycsm »
 

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Offline ukmicky

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Re: driving lessons /survey
« Reply #46 on: 11/02/2006 23:21:33 »


Tony
Whilst I can't say I totally agree with everything you wrote, it is nice to get an opinion from a driving instructor, especially one with 25 years of experience. In the future if anybody were to ask my advice I feel I would nudge them more in the direction of an independent. Independents tend to be people with more than a few years of experience and get work mainly through their reputations and so in general will take more pride in their jobs and therefore will care more about what there letting lose on the roads.
I could be wrong but I reckon the big schools are where the newly qualified instructors tend to migrate where they become one of many, where individual reputation and experience is not such a big factor, and where someone of low ability can hide for a few years because with big companies people tend to trust the big name rather than look at the results and abilities of the people doing the tutoring.

Lastly May I thank you and everybody who have taken their time to reply so far, all of your responses are very much appreciated  


Michael
« Last Edit: 12/02/2006 00:10:03 by ukmicky »

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Re: driving lessons /survey
« Reply #47 on: 11/02/2006 23:44:33 »
Hi Michael,
Thanks for your comments: I certainly don't expect everyone to agree with everything I've written ( the idea is to make them think), I have simply put my views of the respectable side of driving tuition which unfortunately is tarnished by some driving school practices and misunderstood by many average drivers. A good instructor will not rip the student off, he or she is more bothered by reputation for quality tuition than just money alone! In driving instruction, the best asset is a good reputation and in my own instance, I do everything in my power to keep the students I am training safe on the roads for the rest of their lives and not just a 40 minute driving test!
I try and give every young student the same level of instruction I gave my kids when I taught them!
With regard to my other comments...All I can say is that if everyone drove as advised in the Highway Code, there would be very few accidents.
With regard to your enquiry regarding everyone re-taking their driving tests, I have no present information but I know it is being mooted in the corridors of European power but you can rest assured that it won't be introduced by a British government unless it's forced upon us by the EU.
I could never envisage a British government introducing such a law as it would mean sudden death for that government and it's about politics so they only introduce laws which will win votes. This is the problem with politics - probably most of the deaths and serious injuries on our roads could be avoided if re-testing were introduced but those who would make the laws would also have to take the test too or be subject to stricter motoring laws so it's a non starter as well as a vote loser!
Thanks again
Tony
« Last Edit: 12/02/2006 00:16:20 by tonycsm »
 

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Offline ukmicky

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Re: driving lessons /survey
« Reply #48 on: 12/02/2006 00:09:27 »
quote:
Tony
When legislation arrives requiring every driver to retake their driving test at regular intervals, the comments we can see on this and other message boards from know it all drivers will soon dry up and maybe we'll find our roads are far safer.
Do you know where i can view information regarding this proposed law online over the web
---------------------------------------------




Michael

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Re: driving lessons /survey
« Reply #49 on: 12/02/2006 00:20:03 »
Hi Michael,
I have no present information but I know it is being mooted in the corridors of European power but you can rest assured that it won't be introduced by a British government unless it's forced upon us by the EU.
I could never envisage a British government introducing such a law as it would mean sudden death for that government and it's about politics so they only introduce laws which will win votes. This is the problem with politics - probably many of the deaths and serious injuries on our roads could be avoided if re-testing were introduced but those who would make the laws would also have to take the test too or be subject to stricter motoring laws so it's a non starter as well as a vote loser!
Thanks again
Tony