What happens to matter that isn't vibrating?

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What happens to matter that isn't vibrating?
« on: 11/05/2010 19:19:15 »
if matter is energy at a slow vibration, what happens with no vibration?
would matter not vibrating be super dense?
can vibration replace dark matter in equations?
« Last Edit: 12/05/2010 09:29:54 by JP »

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Offline Soul Surfer

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Re: What happens to matter that isn't vibrating?
« Reply #1 on: 11/05/2010 19:41:42 »
I do not know about the slow vibration that you mention maybe you could add a reference.  Matter is localised energy that does not need to travel at the speed of light. Matter has a wavelength that depends on its momentum this wavelength first defined and proved by deBroglie (q.v.) describes how precisely it can be localised and in theory becomes zero if the momentum is zero
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Re: What happens to matter that isn't vibrating?
« Reply #2 on: 11/05/2010 23:04:23 »
light for instance, travels as both particles and waves, so it can not mean matter only travels in wave lengths, matter is condensed energy, its density determines its vibration i.e. wavelength.  its vibration that produces these waves, ok. what you describe sounds like newton laws of force.

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Offline JP

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Re: What happens to matter that isn't vibrating?
« Reply #3 on: 12/05/2010 09:28:51 »
I noticed you posted the same topic again in the New Theories section of the site: http://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?topic=31521.0

In order to consolidate things, I'm going to delete the thread in the New Theories section for now, since it has zero replies.  Would you rather keep this thread in the Physics and Astronomy forum or move it to the New Theories forum?  (This forum is applicable if you want to discuss what mainstream physics says about your question, whereas the New Theories section is useful if you want to propose a theory outside of the mainstream.)

I've also rephrased your title in the form of a question, as is forum policy.  You're free to change it if you prefer a different question.

Cheers,
JP (moderator)
« Last Edit: 12/05/2010 09:30:33 by JP »

What happens to matter that isn't vibrating?
« Reply #4 on: 12/05/2010 16:58:33 »
I noticed you posted the same topic again in the New Theories section of the site: http://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?topic=31521.0

In order to consolidate things, I'm going to delete the thread in the New Theories section for now, since it has zero replies.  Would you rather keep this thread in the Physics and Astronomy forum or move it to the New Theories forum?  (This forum is applicable if you want to discuss what mainstream physics says about your question, whereas the New Theories section is useful if you want to propose a theory outside of the mainstream.)

I've also rephrased your title in the form of a question, as is forum policy.  You're free to change it if you prefer a different question.

Cheers,
JP (moderator)
ok no problem, posted twice looking for answers. thanks

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Offline Soul Surfer

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What happens to matter that isn't vibrating?
« Reply #5 on: 13/05/2010 00:10:18 »
URU 

quote

light for instance, travels as both particles and waves, so it can not mean matter only travels in wave lengths, matter is condensed energy, its density determines its vibration i.e. wavelength.  its vibration that produces these waves, ok. what you describe sounds like newton laws of force.

unquote

agreed light is both particles and waves as described.  the rest is rubbish. matter wave as described by de Broglie have nothing to do with physical vibrations  see  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matter_wave for a full description of wavelength and frequency.  all this is thoroughly proved experimentally.
Learn, create, test and tell
evolution rules in all things
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What happens to matter that isn't vibrating?
« Reply #6 on: 13/05/2010 01:45:00 »
URU 

quote

light for instance, travels as both particles and waves, so it can not mean matter only travels in wave lengths, matter is condensed energy, its density determines its vibration i.e. wavelength.  its vibration that produces these waves, ok. what you describe sounds like newton laws of force.

unquote

agreed light is both particles and waves as described.  the rest is rubbish. matter wave as described by de Broglie have nothing to do with physical vibrations  see  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matter_wave for a full description of wavelength and frequency.  all this is thoroughly proved experimentally.


i think i confused you:
forgetting about light....Matter it self is composed of atoms, atoms are energy. particles make up atoms and when you smash atoms together you get energy and particles. (e=mc2)
So if matter is composed of atoms, there is the empty space in between the nucleus and the electrons orbiting the nucleus.
This causes the slow vibration which emits wavelengths all depending on density.
If there is no space no vibration i theorize, super dense matter.
LIKE THE SINGULARITY 

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Offline Geezer

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What happens to matter that isn't vibrating?
« Reply #7 on: 13/05/2010 07:41:30 »

atoms are energy


How true. As Woody Allen put it, "It's like anything else."
There ain'ta no sanity clause, and there ain'ta no centrifugal force ćther.

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Offline JP

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What happens to matter that isn't vibrating?
« Reply #8 on: 13/05/2010 08:41:16 »
You're wrong about density defining the quantum vibration of particles, so the rest of your claim doesn't hold.  Vibration isn't a very precise term to use, but basically a quantum particle acts like a wave, and the amount of wiggle in that wave is what I think you mean by vibration.  In that case, the vibration is defined by the momentum and energy of the particle, not density. 

So to answer your original questions:
Quote
If matter is energy at a slow vibration, what happens with no vibration?
Matter isn't energy with a slow vibration.  Furthermore, there is no such thing as matter that isn't vibrating, since even particles with the least possible energy still vibrate.

Quote
would matter not vibrating be super dense?
No.  Matter can't stop vibrating.  Also, even if it's vibrating slowly, that doesn't mean that it's super dense.

Quote
can vibration replace dark matter in equations?
Vibration is a property of matter.  Dark matter is matter that we can't see.  The two are different physical things, so they can't be interchanged in equations.  I think what you mean to ask is if dark matter could be explained as regular matter that's just vibrating slowly.  The answer is basically no.  There are a lot of properties that dark matter needs to satisfy: it needs to not emit electromagnetic waves and it has to have other properties which match observations of the universe.  Some of it could be slowly-vibrating matter, but that alone isn't enough of a description to define dark matter.

It sounds like the kind of matter you're describing falls within the idea of cold dark matter.  If you wanted to read up on it, you could check the wiki link here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cold_dark_matter

What happens to matter that isn't vibrating?
« Reply #9 on: 13/05/2010 09:52:43 »
You're wrong about density defining the quantum vibration of particles, so the rest of your claim doesn't hold.  Vibration isn't a very precise term to use, but basically a quantum particle acts like a wave, and the amount of wiggle in that wave is what I think you mean by vibration.  In that case, the vibration is defined by the momentum and energy of the particle, not density. 

So to answer your original questions:
Quote
If matter is energy at a slow vibration, what happens with no vibration?
Matter isn't energy with a slow vibration.  Furthermore, there is no such thing as matter that isn't vibrating, since even particles with the least possible energy still vibrate.

Quote
would matter not vibrating be super dense?
No.  Matter can't stop vibrating.  Also, even if it's vibrating slowly, that doesn't mean that it's super dense.

Quote
can vibration replace dark matter in equations?
Vibration is a property of matter.  Dark matter is matter that we can't see.  The two are different physical things, so they can't be interchanged in equations.  I think what you mean to ask is if dark matter could be explained as regular matter that's just vibrating slowly.  The answer is basically no.  There are a lot of properties that dark matter needs to satisfy: it needs to not emit electromagnetic waves and it has to have other properties which match observations of the universe.  Some of it could be slowly-vibrating matter, but that alone isn't enough of a description to define dark matter.

It sounds like the kind of matter you're describing falls within the idea of cold dark matter.  If you wanted to read up on it, you could check the wiki link here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cold_dark_matter
THE PROOF IS EASY TO EXPERIMENT...
ALL MATTER HAS A RESONATE VIBRATION, LIKE A SINGER BREAKING A GLASS, AT RIGHT FREQUENCY THE MASS LONGER CAN CONTAIN ITS STATE.
LET ME KNOW IF YOU NEED ME TO BE ANY MORE CLEAR, AND BEFORE YOU SAY NO, LOOK FOR PROOF OR EXPERIMENT YOURSELF.
YOU ARE NOT HELPING OTHER WISE.
IF DARK MATTER IS MATTER WE CANT SEE EXPLAIN WHY WE SEE ANYTHING, WE SEE A SHORT SPAN OF THE LIGHT SPECTRUM (IN BETWEEN ULTRA AND INFRA),
IF DARK MATTER IS JUST MATTER THAT CANT BE SEEN THEN ONE COULD SEE IT IN XRAY OR INFRA RED, THE FACT WE CANT SEE IT IN ANY SPECTRUM IS PROOF THERE IS MORE TO IT THAN JUST MATTER WE CAN NOT SEE.
EVERYTHING IS ENERGY

(Matter isn't energy with a slow vibration.  Furthermore, there is no such thing as matter that isn't vibrating, since even particles with the least possible energy still vibrate.) THIS CONTRADICTS IT SELF FOR EXAMPLE...

What happens to matter that isn't vibrating?
« Reply #10 on: 13/05/2010 10:00:24 »
since even particles with the least possible energy still vibrate.

THEY EMIT SOUND WAVES VIBRATING,
THE DENSITY OF THE MASS DETERMINES THE FREQUENCY.
MANY BODIES OF MASS CONTAIN MULTIPLE ELEMENTS.
THE ELEMENT ALONE IN MASS, IS A MASS AS FAR AS DENSITY OR ATOMIC WEIGHT.

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Offline JP

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What happens to matter that isn't vibrating?
« Reply #11 on: 13/05/2010 10:32:28 »
It's not that you're being unclear.  It's that you're claiming things to be facts which have no evidence to support them or flat out contradict experiments.  Soul Surfer and I have tried to point out where your theory has errors, but you don't seem to want to discuss them.  Therefore, I'm moving this topic to the "New Theories" board.

-JP (moderator)

What happens to matter that isn't vibrating?
« Reply #12 on: 13/05/2010 18:12:36 »
It's not that you're being unclear.  It's that you're claiming things to be facts which have no evidence to support them or flat out contradict experiments.  Soul Surfer and I have tried to point out where your theory has errors, but you don't seem to want to discuss them.  Therefore, I'm moving this topic to the "New Theories" board.

-JP (moderator)
Always open for discussion, which facts dont you believe what experiments have been contradicted?

What happens to matter that isn't vibrating?
« Reply #13 on: 13/05/2010 19:35:51 »

atoms are energy


How true. As Woody Allen put it, "It's like anything else."
play with this one in your mind;
1+1=1

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Offline Geezer

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There ain'ta no sanity clause, and there ain'ta no centrifugal force ćther.

What happens to matter that isn't vibrating?
« Reply #15 on: 13/05/2010 22:18:43 »

1+1=1


1+1=10
.... 1 apple + 1 apple = all part of the same vast cloud we call the universe.
everything is connected, everything is one thing.

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Offline Geezer

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What happens to matter that isn't vibrating?
« Reply #16 on: 13/05/2010 23:53:43 »
10+10=100
There ain'ta no sanity clause, and there ain'ta no centrifugal force ćther.

What happens to matter that isn't vibrating?
« Reply #17 on: 15/05/2010 02:33:21 »
?????Waiting to continue topic????

What happens to matter that isn't vibrating?
« Reply #18 on: 15/05/2010 19:26:32 »
if this theory works it is a way to describe everything, yet as always yields only more questions as the branches of thought lead to the trunk of truth.
Dark matter is the variable of gravity from dark matter, there really is no such thing it is a made up phrase to describe why the universe does not fall apart, for gravity is not sufficient to hold it all together.
In computer models of a galaxy, the entire entity falls apart with out the addition of the variable of gravity from dark matter.

So if instead of gravity from dark matter that makes things coalesce, perhaps it is their frequency.
And if matter is condensed it heats (star), if there is a large enough mass of matter perhaps gravity will condense it to a point where it can longer heat and at 0 kelvin become super dense matter (the stuff in the middle of black holes.)
And if the big bang is supposed to be super dense matter exploding into what we know now, then where did it explode?

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Offline JP

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What happens to matter that isn't vibrating?
« Reply #19 on: 16/05/2010 04:34:55 »
I don't think you'll get a lot of response to your theory because you're not basing it on science.  It's not really worth debating the scientific merits of a new theory when it doesn't have a basis in science. 

It's true that dark matter is a big question in current theories, but if you want to replace current theories with a new one, it has to (a) agree with current observations and (b) predict or explain something unknown.  Predicting and explaining generally also means needing equations and quantitative values.

Since you asked, here are a few problems with what you're saying:
Quote
ALL MATTER HAS A RESONATE VIBRATION, LIKE A SINGER BREAKING A GLASS, AT RIGHT FREQUENCY THE MASS LONGER CAN CONTAIN ITS STATE.
There's no evidence for this.

Quote
LET ME KNOW IF YOU NEED ME TO BE ANY MORE CLEAR, AND BEFORE YOU SAY NO, LOOK FOR PROOF OR EXPERIMENT YOURSELF.
Science doesn't work by assuming you're right until someone else disproves it.  You need to provide the proof if you want your ideas to be accepted.

Quote
IF DARK MATTER IS MATTER WE CANT SEE EXPLAIN WHY WE SEE ANYTHING, WE SEE A SHORT SPAN OF THE LIGHT SPECTRUM (IN BETWEEN ULTRA AND INFRA),
IF DARK MATTER IS JUST MATTER THAT CANT BE SEEN THEN ONE COULD SEE IT IN XRAY OR INFRA RED, THE FACT WE CANT SEE IT IN ANY SPECTRUM IS PROOF THERE IS MORE TO IT THAN JUST MATTER WE CAN NOT SEE.
EVERYTHING IS ENERGY
"See" is just a term that's used to mean that we can't observe it in any range of the electromagnetic spectrum, be that light, radio waves, infra red, etc.

Quote
THEY EMIT SOUND WAVES VIBRATING,
No, they don't.  You can't emit sound in space, for example.

What happens to matter that isn't vibrating?
« Reply #20 on: 16/05/2010 08:00:20 »
I don't think you'll get a lot of response to your theory because you're not basing it on science.  It's not really worth debating the scientific merits of a new theory when it doesn't have a basis in science. 

It's true that dark matter is a big question in current theories, but if you want to replace current theories with a new one, it has to (a) agree with current observations and (b) predict or explain something unknown.  Predicting and explaining generally also means needing equations and quantitative values.

Since you asked, here are a few problems with what you're saying:
Quote
ALL MATTER HAS A RESONATE VIBRATION, LIKE A SINGER BREAKING A GLASS, AT RIGHT FREQUENCY THE MASS LONGER CAN CONTAIN ITS STATE.
There's no evidence for this.

Quote
LET ME KNOW IF YOU NEED ME TO BE ANY MORE CLEAR, AND BEFORE YOU SAY NO, LOOK FOR PROOF OR EXPERIMENT YOURSELF.
Science doesn't work by assuming you're right until someone else disproves it.  You need to provide the proof if you want your ideas to be accepted.

Quote
IF DARK MATTER IS MATTER WE CANT SEE EXPLAIN WHY WE SEE ANYTHING, WE SEE A SHORT SPAN OF THE LIGHT SPECTRUM (IN BETWEEN ULTRA AND INFRA),
IF DARK MATTER IS JUST MATTER THAT CANT BE SEEN THEN ONE COULD SEE IT IN XRAY OR INFRA RED, THE FACT WE CANT SEE IT IN ANY SPECTRUM IS PROOF THERE IS MORE TO IT THAN JUST MATTER WE CAN NOT SEE.
EVERYTHING IS ENERGY
"See" is just a term that's used to mean that we can't observe it in any range of the electromagnetic spectrum, be that light, radio waves, infra red, etc.

Quote
THEY EMIT SOUND WAVES VIBRATING,
No, they don't.  You can't emit sound in space, for example.
Your arguments are a joke, if you are just going to say no to everything said, you mite as well believe the sun revolves around the earth.
study your facts before you make claims.
Quote
ALL MATTER HAS A RESONATE VIBRATION, LIKE A SINGER BREAKING A GLASS, AT RIGHT FREQUENCY THE MASS LONGER CAN CONTAIN ITS STATE.
There's no evidence for this.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resonance#Atomic.2C_particle.2C_and_molecular_resonance

....you can hear the sounds of space in the static....


("Science doesn't work by assuming you're right until someone else disproves it") This is exactly how science works Einstein.

What happens to matter that isn't vibrating?
« Reply #21 on: 16/05/2010 20:10:47 »
if matter is energy at a slow vibration, what happens with no vibration?
would matter not vibrating be super dense?
can vibration replace dark matter in equations?
can vibration replace dark matter in equations?
can vibration explain why gravity seems so weak?

Dark matter does not define any thing except that gravity alone can not hold the universe together.

Can vibration/oscillation explain the behavior of quantum particles, and can resonate vibration be partially responsible for the coalescence of matter?


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Offline Bored chemist

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What happens to matter that isn't vibrating?
« Reply #22 on: 17/05/2010 06:56:58 »
Are we feeding a troll here?
Please disregard all previous signatures.

What happens to matter that isn't vibrating?
« Reply #23 on: 17/05/2010 19:09:31 »
I simply asked a question looking for intelligent discussion, to find an answer.
The answers I am seeing seem to make more of an effort to humiliate than to teach or learn.
All of the argument received so far, have been made with false claims so easily disputed they waste every ones time?
It is to the find truth I ask.

What happens to matter that isn't vibrating?
« Reply #24 on: 17/05/2010 19:10:23 »
1.I don't think you'll get a lot of response to your theory because you're not basing it on science.  It's not really worth debating the scientific merits of a new theory when it doesn't have a basis in science.

THIS THEORY, QUESTION IS OBVIOUSLY BASED IN SCIENCE, SHOULD I ASK A CHEF?  

2.It's true that dark matter is a big question in current theories, but if you want to replace current theories with a new one, it has to (a) agree with current observations and (b) predict or explain something unknown.  Predicting and explaining generally also means needing equations and quantitative values.

AGAIN DARK MATTER IS ONLY A VARIABLE.


3.There's no evidence for this.

MRI FOR ANOTHER EXAMPLE

4."See" is just a term that's used to mean that we can't observe it in any range of the electromagnetic spectrum, be that light, radio waves, infra red, etc.

AGAIN DARK MATTER IS ONLY A VARIABLE, YOU CAN ONLY SEE A VARIABLE ON PAPER.

5."Furthermore, there is no such thing as matter that isn't vibrating, since even particles with the least possible energy still vibrate."

YOUR CLAIM IS FALSE.  THE PROOF IS HERE.

"At the very lowest temperature possible—Absolute Zero (0 degrees Kelvin or 0o K)—all motion stops and the atoms and molecules do not vibrate or even spin."
http://www.school-for-champions.com/science/matter_states.htm

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Offline Bored chemist

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What happens to matter that isn't vibrating?
« Reply #25 on: 17/05/2010 21:32:46 »
He must be right; he's using CAPITAL LETTERS.
Please disregard all previous signatures.

What happens to matter that isn't vibrating?
« Reply #26 on: 17/05/2010 22:31:42 »
The truth can not be argued.
Capital letters are used in this format to make the text easy to follow.

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Offline JP

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What happens to matter that isn't vibrating?
« Reply #27 on: 18/05/2010 01:53:15 »
1.I don't think you'll get a lot of response to your theory because you're not basing it on science.  It's not really worth debating the scientific merits of a new theory when it doesn't have a basis in science.

THIS THEORY, QUESTION IS OBVIOUSLY BASED IN SCIENCE, SHOULD I ASK A CHEF?  
You saying it's based in science doesn't make it science.  The fact that it lacks any scientific basis makes it not science.

Quote
2.It's true that dark matter is a big question in current theories, but if you want to replace current theories with a new one, it has to (a) agree with current observations and (b) predict or explain something unknown.  Predicting and explaining generally also means needing equations and quantitative values.

AGAIN DARK MATTER IS ONLY A VARIABLE.
???  That has nothing to do addressing the point.

Quote
3.There's no evidence for this.

MRI FOR ANOTHER EXAMPLE
(Re: resonances of particles.)  I know how an MRI works.  You're misinterpreting the word "resonance" there.  This is why I'm saying you're not basing this theory in science--you're misinterpreting a lot of scientific concepts.

Quote
4."See" is just a term that's used to mean that we can't observe it in any range of the electromagnetic spectrum, be that light, radio waves, infra red, etc.

AGAIN DARK MATTER IS ONLY A VARIABLE, YOU CAN ONLY SEE A VARIABLE ON PAPER.
Again... what? 

Quote
5."Furthermore, there is no such thing as matter that isn't vibrating, since even particles with the least possible energy still vibrate."

YOUR CLAIM IS FALSE.  THE PROOF IS HERE.

"At the very lowest temperature possible—Absolute Zero (0 degrees Kelvin or 0o K)—all motion stops and the atoms and molecules do not vibrate or even spin."
http://www.school-for-champions.com/science/matter_states.htm
I don't know what to tell you other than that your website is wrong.  Wikipedia does have it right, though citing one website to refute another seems a bit questionable: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Absolute_zero.  Check an actual scientific textbook for the answer.  Intro books on thermodynamics should have an explanation.

What happens to matter that isn't vibrating?
« Reply #28 on: 18/05/2010 02:59:37 »
If you dont know, just say so, or say nothing, or you never learn anything.

"The laws of thermodynamics state that absolute zero cannot be reached because this would require a thermodynamic system to be fully removed from the rest of the universe. A system at absolute zero would still possess quantum mechanical zero-point energy. While molecular motion would not cease entirely at absolute zero, the system would not have enough energy for transference to other systems. It is therefore correct to say that molecular kinetic energy is minimal at absolute zero."

My question asks, could such a mass be created with the extreme condensation of matter in gravity as powerful as something like a collapsing star, past the point of heating it self due to molecular fiction.  Would such a mass be super dense resulting in super gravity?

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Offline Geezer

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What happens to matter that isn't vibrating?
« Reply #29 on: 18/05/2010 03:24:05 »

If you dont know, just say so, or say nothing, or you never learn anything.


Public Warning

URU,

I have already warned you not to insult other posters yet you persist with insults like the one above. You seem to be more interested in picking fights to promote your own agenda than debating any real points of science.

This is your last warning. Any more unacceptable behavior and we will ban you from this forum.

(BTW - Any more ALL CAPS will be considered shouting, and that will get you banned too.)

Geezer (Moderator)
There ain'ta no sanity clause, and there ain'ta no centrifugal force ćther.

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Offline JP

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What happens to matter that isn't vibrating?
« Reply #30 on: 18/05/2010 05:53:03 »
If you dont know, just say so, or say nothing, or you never learn anything.

"The laws of thermodynamics state that absolute zero cannot be reached because this would require a thermodynamic system to be fully removed from the rest of the universe. A system at absolute zero would still possess quantum mechanical zero-point energy. While molecular motion would not cease entirely at absolute zero, the system would not have enough energy for transference to other systems. It is therefore correct to say that molecular kinetic energy is minimal at absolute zero."

My question asks, could such a mass be created with the extreme condensation of matter in gravity as powerful as something like a collapsing star, past the point of heating it self due to molecular fiction.  Would such a mass be super dense resulting in super gravity?


Your question asked
Quote
if matter is energy at a slow vibration, what happens with no vibration?
would matter not vibrating be super dense?
can vibration replace dark matter in equations?

  • I answered the science in it, and among the points I brought up was that matter doesn't stop vibrating even at absolute zero.
  • You said that it did and pointed me to a link.
  • I said it didn't and pointed you to another link.

The quote you give above supports what I was saying--matter at absolute zero would still "vibrate" quantum mechanically.  Whether you can physically reach that limit is another discussion entirely, but you can't stop it from vibrating even if you somehow reach absolute zero. 

To answer your new question about stars collapsing and gravity:  Massive stars can collapse under gravity to black holes.  We don't know how to unify that fact with quantum mechanics and we certainly can't look inside a black hole, which means there's probably no answer to your question about whether the mass at the singularity of a black hole is vibrating. 

At the risk of making things extremely complicated, it is possible to define a temperature for black holes based on radiation they should be emitting and it is above absolute zero: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_hole_thermodynamics#Interpretation_of_the_laws 

What happens to matter that isn't vibrating?
« Reply #31 on: 18/05/2010 06:06:11 »
Sounds like you are starting to understand the question.
My question asks:
If the mass that makes black holes would be super dense matter condensed past the point of fusion at low temp. due to shear size?

What happens to matter that isn't vibrating?
« Reply #32 on: 18/05/2010 06:14:55 »

If you dont know, just say so, or say nothing, or you never learn anything.


Public Warning

URU,

I have already warned you not to insult other posters yet you persist with insults like the one above. You seem to be more interested in picking fights to promote your own agenda than debating any real points of science.

This is your last warning. Any more unacceptable behavior and we will ban you from this forum.

(BTW - Any more ALL CAPS will be considered shouting, and that will get you banned too.)

Geezer (Moderator)
I apologize for anything I said interpreted as an insult.
I know almost every one has more education than I, for I received a g.e.d. at the age of 15 in a juvenile detention center.
I'm not here to prove any thing or promote any agenda aside from knowing the truth.
U.R.U.TM

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Offline Geezer

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What happens to matter that isn't vibrating?
« Reply #33 on: 18/05/2010 06:34:31 »
OK URU.

The truth is very hard to know. Even when it's right in front of our face, we may still not know it.

I'm sure JP does not claim to know everything, but he really does know a lot about science today. I'm sure you can learn a lot if you are willing to pay attention to what he is saying.

If you can learn how to debate without putting other people down, you'll do fine.
There ain'ta no sanity clause, and there ain'ta no centrifugal force ćther.

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Offline JP

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What happens to matter that isn't vibrating?
« Reply #34 on: 18/05/2010 06:47:43 »
Sounds like you are starting to understand the question.
My question asks:
If the mass that makes black holes would be super dense matter condensed past the point of fusion at low temp. due to shear size?

Yes.  Gravity is so powerful that it can overcome every other force we know of if you have enough of it.  This includes the forces keeping atoms from being squashed together, and even forces keeping the tiny pieces that make up atoms from being squashed together.  In a black hole, all the matter that falls in should end up squashed down to a point (or more generally, a singularity, since a point only holds for simple black holes).

What happens to matter that isn't vibrating?
« Reply #35 on: 18/05/2010 06:59:28 »
Yes, I know.
I am asking about the actual singularity.
Is what makes this awesome gravity called a black hole a form of mass with particles so tightly condensed due too:

"The laws of thermodynamics state that absolute zero cannot be reached because this would require a thermodynamic system to be fully removed from the rest of the universe. A system at absolute zero would still possess quantum mechanical zero-point energy. While molecular motion would not cease entirely at absolute zero, the system would not have enough energy for transference to other systems. It is therefore correct to say that molecular kinetic energy is minimal at absolute zero."

Would this system be super dense matter with minimal kinetic energy, yet so dense its gravity is black hole powerful?

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Offline Bored chemist

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What happens to matter that isn't vibrating?
« Reply #36 on: 18/05/2010 07:15:00 »
URU, if you were asking about black holes why didn't you mention them in the original post?
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Offline Geezer

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What happens to matter that isn't vibrating?
« Reply #37 on: 18/05/2010 07:35:28 »
URU, if you were asking about black holes why didn't you mention them in the original post?


Perhaps we need to help URU understand the conventions of this forum. We might initiate a new topic if that seems appropriate to other forum members. I think it's appropriate that we try to support our brothers in science if they want to learn, don't you BC?
There ain'ta no sanity clause, and there ain'ta no centrifugal force ćther.

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Offline JP

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What happens to matter that isn't vibrating?
« Reply #38 on: 18/05/2010 08:18:23 »
Yes, I know.
I am asking about the actual singularity.
Is what makes this awesome gravity called a black hole a form of mass with particles so tightly condensed due too:

"The laws of thermodynamics state that absolute zero cannot be reached because this would require a thermodynamic system to be fully removed from the rest of the universe. A system at absolute zero would still possess quantum mechanical zero-point energy. While molecular motion would not cease entirely at absolute zero, the system would not have enough energy for transference to other systems. It is therefore correct to say that molecular kinetic energy is minimal at absolute zero."

Would this system be super dense matter with minimal kinetic energy, yet so dense its gravity is black hole powerful?


No.  A system at absolute zero doesn't necessarily become a black hole.  The amount of energy (or vibration) in a system isn't given by its density.  Forming a black hole depends on how much mass you have crammed into a certain volume of space. 

If you turn the question around and ask how much the singularity at the center of an existing black hole is "vibrating" on a quantum level--which is what absolute zero is about--I don't think anyone has the answer to that, since no one knows how gravity behaves on the quantum level.

What happens to matter that isn't vibrating?
« Reply #39 on: 18/05/2010 08:25:12 »
Yes, I know.
I am asking about the actual singularity.
Is what makes this awesome gravity called a black hole a form of mass with particles so tightly condensed due too:

"The laws of thermodynamics state that absolute zero cannot be reached because this would require a thermodynamic system to be fully removed from the rest of the universe. A system at absolute zero would still possess quantum mechanical zero-point energy. While molecular motion would not cease entirely at absolute zero, the system would not have enough energy for transference to other systems. It is therefore correct to say that molecular kinetic energy is minimal at absolute zero."

Would this system be super dense matter with minimal kinetic energy, yet so dense its gravity is black hole powerful?


No.  A system at absolute zero doesn't necessarily become a black hole.  The amount of energy (or vibration) in a system isn't given by its density.  Forming a black hole depends on how much mass you have crammed into a certain volume of space. 

If you turn the question around and ask how much the singularity at the center of an existing black hole is "vibrating" on a quantum level--which is what absolute zero is about--I don't think anyone has the answer to that, since no one knows how gravity behaves on the quantum level.


If you turn the question around and ask how much the singularity at the center of an existing black hole is "vibrating" on a quantum level--which is what absolute zero is about--I don't think anyone has the answer to that, since no one knows how gravity behaves on the quantum level.

thats the answer i am looking for, the one no one knows...................?

What happens to matter that isn't vibrating?
« Reply #40 on: 18/05/2010 08:27:12 »
URU, if you were asking about black holes why didn't you mention them in the original post?


Is what makes this awesome gravity called a black hole a form of mass with particles so tightly condensed they almost stop vibrating from super gravity it forms super gravity?
Super dense matter with minimal kinetic energy, formed when gravity overcomes fusion?

What happens to matter that isn't vibrating?
« Reply #41 on: 18/05/2010 08:36:37 »
"The amount of energy (or vibration) in a system isn't given by its density"

Isnt density why we use uranium for energy?

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Offline JP

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What happens to matter that isn't vibrating?
« Reply #42 on: 18/05/2010 08:48:04 »
"The amount of energy (or vibration) in a system isn't given by its density"

Isnt density why we use uranium for energy?

No.  We use uranium for energy because it decays easily and when its hit by a particle called a neutron.  When it decays so it releases a lot of energy along with more neutrons.  If you pack a lot of uranium atoms together and one decays, the neutrons it emits cause a chain reaction of uranium decay.  This means that you can release a lot of energy quickly.

What happens to matter that isn't vibrating?
« Reply #43 on: 18/05/2010 19:21:55 »
atomic density, not molecular...

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Offline Bored chemist

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« Reply #44 on: 18/05/2010 20:47:32 »
It's a bit hard to define the density of a single atom; it hasn't got a properly defined radius so you can't calculate the volume for it.
On the other hand, you can look at the density of a solid like uranium and, as it happens, uranium is pretty dense, but it's not the densest element. Some of the denser ones are stable. On the other hand, tritium, which is about as un-dense as you can get is unstable enough that you could use it as a source of energy (of course, you would need to find a tritium source).

Anyway, you are right about one thing, nobody knows what is happening inside a black hole.

There is, as far as I know, not any experiment which can answer the question. Not because the experiment would be difficult, or expensive, but because no such experiment can be invented.
From that point of view the question is like asking how may angels can dance on the head of a pin.
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What happens to matter that isn't vibrating?
« Reply #45 on: 18/05/2010 22:20:59 »
I understand the problems in defining the density of an atom, yet hypothetically the density should be able to determined by the quantity of particles in a given space.
I imagine such an experiment would have to be on paper, or maybe a computer model, but it would have to determine if fusion can take place at low temperature at high pressure.
If I knew the formulas, I would do the math my self.

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What happens to matter that isn't vibrating?
« Reply #46 on: 19/05/2010 10:02:23 »
 
It's a bit hard to define the density of a single atom; it hasn't got a properly defined radius so you can't calculate the volume for it.

Would you be able to do something like compute the expected value of the radius for an atom in its ground state and use that to define a volume? 

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Offline JP

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« Reply #47 on: 19/05/2010 10:10:10 »
I understand the problems in defining the density of an atom, yet hypothetically the density should be able to determined by the quantity of particles in a given space.
I imagine such an experiment would have to be on paper, or maybe a computer model, but it would have to determine if fusion can take place at low temperature at high pressure.
If I knew the formulas, I would do the math my self.

BC might contradict me on what I posted above about determining density of a single atom, since he knows his chemistry a lot better than I do.  Let's say you could determine the density of a single atom.  What would you use that number for?  How does fusion come into it?  And black holes?  And what does this have to do with dark matter?  I'm not trying to pick on you here, but I'm confused about how to answer your question and what you're asking about.

What happens to matter that isn't vibrating?
« Reply #48 on: 19/05/2010 12:19:54 »
The question asks how dense atoms can be packed, determining the density is problematic because of isotopic variables, some elements seem to have more than one atomic number.
So to get a number relating to the density of an atom, I imagine one could take an average count.  When you buy in bulk, it is the weight not the quantity.
The point is to try and determine the maximum density at an atomic level.
Since there is space in atoms fusion comes into the equation to remove said space.
Usually fusion, in a star for example, occurs under high temperatures at high heat.

The normal ideas of states of matter are transformed at this level, molecular bonds mean nothing, gravity versus fusion explosions of energy contained by gravity.
When fusion wins, super nova throw heavy elements into the universe,
When gravity wins, neutron star.
What if, when there is enough mass, gravity compresses the mass past neutron star density to form a black hole?

Dark matter accounts for the universal weakness of gravity, because gravity alone is not strong enough to hold everything together, we use the variable of extra gravity from dark matter to make standard physics work.  I wonder, if the vibration of the atoms can account for gravities weakness and help explain why matter coalesces.

I think this states the question better....

Is what makes this awesome gravity called a black hole a form of mass with particles so tightly condensed they almost stop vibrating from super gravity it forms super gravity?
Super dense matter with minimal kinetic energy, formed when gravity overcomes high temp. fusion and begins low temp. fusion with shear mass compression as the engine?

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Offline tommya300

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What happens to matter that isn't vibrating?
« Reply #49 on: 19/05/2010 12:48:29 »
Boolean Algebra 1+1=1 equivalant to 1 or 1 results 1
Gate to Electronics.


atoms are energy


How true. As Woody Allen put it, "It's like anything else."
play with this one in your mind;
1+1=1