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I don't think a photon clock will behave differently but I have not reasoned out why yet. I think it is to do with not being able to time photon speed remotely. It can only be done by observing events and their intervals.

At first sight your reasoning seems sound, Amrit. It is an extension to the simple demonstration of time dilation in Special Relativity where a stationary observer is watching light bouncing between two mirrors in a moving frame. This is interesting. Have you any theory associated with this?

Amrit - a bit confused. You are certainly right about the atomic clocks running slower due to a time dilation effect caused by gravity - but why would this time dilation effect not alter the perceived time for photon ticks as well. the speed of light will remain constant for a local observer - ie both clocks must remain in synchrony. on the surface an observer will notice that time is slower in the mine compared to his measurement

Velocity of photon is invariant on gravity. Out of that comes that photon clock will not have relativistic gravitational effect.

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Matthew you think it is possible to make a real Photon Clock with two mirrors ?If yes, than we will do an interesting experiment.yours amrit

Amrit - I realise from your paper and other points you have made that you are trying to investigate new concepts of time - but in order to do this you are advancing arguments and quoting sources that explicitly require an engagement with the effet of gravity on space and time; and you seem to be avoiding this. Your photon clocks will disagree for reasons that JP and Graham mentioned above.With regards to your link of Einstein's notes - please read the final few paragraphs of section 3 and advise how this does not compromise your entire argument. you will note that in the argument Einstein does not define 4th dimnsion attributes at all but talks of three-dimensional frames of reference in either uniform acceleration or homogeneous gravitational field. in order to prove your points you must deal with observed and theoretical predicted time dilation and with spacial distortion (as described very clearly by Graham above) - which you have not done so far.Matthew

Gravity effects space and time. This is why it can cause disagreement between your photon clocks at the center of the earth and in deep space. Gravity doesn't have to effect the velocity of light in order to cause the clocks to disagree, since it effects the spatial distance between them. Are you arguing that the clocks at the center of the earth and in deep space will agree perfectly when you compare them?

We have a “photon clock” made out of two mirrors A and B. Photon is moving from A to B, back to A and so on. One traveling of the photon between A and B is a “tick” of the clock. We take two photon clocks. One photon clock is on the surface of the earth, second is 4200 meters below at the bottom of the mine shaft. Velocity of light is invariant on gravity; both of clocks will “tick” with the same velocity.

Amrit - I am afraid you are repeating assertions without providing anything more. Would you care to explain how space can be timeless yet there is experimental and practical proof of time dilation through differing gravitational potential and relative velocity. you keep on repeating that photon clocks are unvarying despite Graham's explanation under SR of why they vary - could you answer this single question. As an aside - I read your paper and flicked through the references; I was unable to find the quote you gave within the Eckle paper. If, in fact, it was a paraphrase it should really not be in quotes - perhaps you could direct me towards it.Matthew

Amrit, (to quote from Monty Python) this is contradiction, not argument. "Space is timeless" is meaningless unless you explain your definitions"'Velocity' of clocks" is also not what you mean (I think). It has everything to do with the observer and the different gravitational potential. If you were to do the maths rigorously you would find the "spacetime interval" will be the same to all observers. The rules of the universe are what they are and not what you choose them to be, so by all means do your experiment, but you seem to have presupposed the result. But if it turned out you were right you will surprise a lot of people :-)

Quote from: amrit on 19/05/2010 08:27:53We have a “photon clock” made out of two mirrors A and B. Photon is moving from A to B, back to A and so on. One traveling of the photon between A and B is a “tick” of the clock. We take two photon clocks. One photon clock is on the surface of the earth, second is 4200 meters below at the bottom of the mine shaft. Velocity of light is invariant on gravity; both of clocks will “tick” with the same velocity.Hi amrit. I'm afraid this isn't right. The second clock runs slower than the first clock. People say the speed of light doesn't change, but it does. The reason why is simple: speed is distance over time. If we avoid radial length contraction by lying our clocks flat, the distance is the same for both clocks. However we say that time dilation has occurred for the second clock, and that the times are not the same. Speed equals distance over time, so if the distances are the same and the times aren't, the speeds aren't the same either, even though we measure them both to be 299,792,458 metres per second. There's a hidden scale-change at work here, wherein the clock goes slower not because "time goes slower", but because the light goes slower.

Can you show evidence for this slow light, Farsight. I agree with your conclusion but is it not spacial changes with gravitational potential rather than lightspeed changes?

Isn't what you are saying a more classical view than a relativistic one?

The view of a blackhole, from this perspective, is that light does not emerge because it can't reach escape velocity rather than it being redshifted to zero energy. Perhaps the two views are indistinguishable. Gravitational redshift is not normally thought of to result from slow light - though I seem to remember some old theory about this.

The detector counts incoming microwave peaks. When it gets to 9,192,631,770 we say a second has elapsed. The frequency of the light is then 9,192,631,770 Hz by definition.

photon moves in space only and not in time

Quote from: amrit on 23/05/2010 07:05:38photon moves in space only and not in timeRelative to the photon I think that is true. Relative to us the photon does take time, therefore we observe velocity and we can confirm this experimentally in many different ways.

Isn't relativity and time dialation tested every single time we put a satellite into orbit and the fact the two actual clocks or time settings are adjusted to compensate for this?

Hi Amrit,It sounds like what you're claiming is that special relativity as it's usually formulated has errors. If that's the case, it's a new theory rather than mainstream physics. Do you mind posting about it further in the New Theories section of the board? Thanks,JP (moderator)