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quote:Originally posted by DoctorBeaverOf course beavers are good for the environment.
quote:Originally posted by ukmickyI was looking for the new environment forum but strangely its not here, whats going on So trees and plants are not as good for the environment as we first thought. its just been discovered that tree's don't only breath out oxygen but they also emit lots methane.(how did we not know that before) so they breath in one green house gas but also breath out another.SOURCE TODAYS BBC NEWSwhere does that leave the hug a tree campaign and the environment  sorry Andrewit just goes to show how little we know. Is it wise to plant lots of new forests that will emit large amounts of methane .Hey doc maybe you beavers are good for the environment after allMichael HAPPY NEW YEAR
quote:Originally posted by neilephttp://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2006-01/m-tfm011006.phpMen are the same as women.... just inside out !!
quote:Originally posted by ukmickyOr or do you know that man called ukmicky well we checked and he happens to be god so bow down to his greatness and send him lots of money Michael HAPPY NEW YEAR
quote:Originally posted by sharkeyandgeorgeive often wondered if all these gasses that industrys produced have allways been produced (in much smaller quantities naturally) whats took them out the atmosphere before? fair enough co2 removed by plants but what about the others? and cant we just cultivate the other scrubbers as a balance?"Defender of the Sea"
quote:Originally posted by AlphBravoWell it is bit like M Twain "Everyone talks about the Weather but no one does anything about" well not much has changed
quote:fact is the population is addicted to the current lifestyle
quote:Seriously though, what can they do about it? it has taken 300 years of planetary abuse, to get this far, and like the Half life principal whereby said problem is compounding, all the time, until it gets to 50% and the next day 100%.
quote:It will have to be a sudden catastrophic event, that will even galvanise, any concerted action, towards climate change, though really the problem is really growing.
quote:Then we have the CO2 I just cannot see inflating the Planet as some kind of neutral answer, but it will grab attention, for a period, though again I think the Problem is far greater than that.They could capture it, and send it to Mars!
quote:Originally posted by ukmickyHEBREW The given name Michael or Micha'el (îÄéëÈàÅì / îéëàì "he who is like God" or "likened unto God", ARABIC Michael in aramaic means: who is like God?, Michael->"Mi[n] Cha el"ISRAELI MICHAEL is the only angel given the highest rank of archangel; he appears as the guardian angel of IsraelMichael means god in latin.
quote:Originally posted by VAlibrarian"Trees and plants are not as good for the environment as we once thought"- wrong, trees and plants ARE the environment.
quote: Every time some researcher re-measures something and discovers a 1% error it seems to cause an enormous opinion ripple around our planet with millions of people seizing onto the information as a way to believe "things are really okay, there is no danger that natural systems will ever collapse under the pressure of human over-use".
quote:The problem with this is that the cumulative evidence that we are doing real damage is simply too clear at this point.
quote:I recall a few years back many people refused to believe in global warming because it was well documented that temperatures in certain areas were not going up. Well, researchers recently discovered that there was a mistake in the measurements, and all the temperatures including atmospheric and oceanic were going up. Did you see any news reports? Did you hear any public apologies by those who had been using the incorrect data to deny the existence of global warming? Nope. So do not ask me to get excited by the fact that trace amounts of methane come out of plants. This in no way compares to the massive changes that over 6 billion humans are making in our atmosphere.
quote:Originally posted by VAlibrarianbut I think you might agree that we would view the extinction of homo sapiens as "damage". Not that accelerated climate change would result in our extinction, it would probably just reduce our numbers a bit. But even that might be viewed by many of us as "damage", as we are not fond of dying in our anthrocentric value system.
quote:Perhaps in a technical sense we cannot claim that human activity causes the "collapse of natural systems". But from the standpoint of the Passenger Pigeon, Great Auk, Dodo, etc., our activities could be viewed as detrimental to other species.
quote: If we were to deforest the amazon area, grass or weeds would grow in place of the trees, sure. But we might not be happy with the unforeseen results of the deforestation. What would Brazilians use to build houses thereafter, mud?
quote:In a broad sense we inhabit a planetary biosphere that incorporates plants, animals, nonliving structures and gases, and you and me. To pretend that humans lack the power to drive the processes of this system is disingenuous. Take a look at our planet from space at night and study the lights. Take a look again in daylight and note that the green areas are much smaller than they were 200 years ago.
quote: The reality is any natural system has population limits. Like any organism which lacks predators (other than a few microbes and other humans), humans have an upward limit to their numbers. One limit is food supply, and another is having survivable temperatures. Both those limits help explain why human-caused global climate change is not a joke. I will agree with you that the increase over the past fifty years is slight, if you will agree that trending that rise over the next 100 years would spell trouble. I will not be here to see it, but I would like my great-grandchildren to inherit a survivable planet.
quote:Originally posted by VAlibrarianMy views proceed from an assumption that humans have a moral burden to protect the current biological system of planet Earth for our own survival as well as the survival of all other species (excluding roaches and smallpox, if you wish). You seem to feel that there is no such moral burden, and that humans need to pursue whatever course they feel appropriate to further their own ends.
quote: You feel that our ability to generate food is only limited by our ability to generate energy. I might look with more favor on that concept if I thought it would not result in every square inch of North America being occupied by cornfields, factory farms for chickens, and houses for humans.
quote: While I find it interesting I imagine many of the other readers do not. I really wish I had a time machine to go 100 years into the future and bring back evidence of how difficult conditions will be for our descendants. But doubtless you would wish to take the same trip in order to prove to me that we currently live in the "dark ages" in comparison to the marvels that time will hold for future human generations.
quote:Originally posted by Andrew K FletcherDisquiet disbelief as a satellite views the fires of habitual environmental desiccation from a country Hell bent on self destruction.All the red dots are fires and this does not relate only to Thailand, most of the countries and even continents can be seen blazing from satellitesOver 9.5 million suffer as drought spreads to 66 provinceshttp://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=29285
quote:Invitation to anyone interested to bring in his or her thoughts and views, and see if some sense can come from this chaotic Armageddon madness.
quote:Native tree Seeds are given free by many forestry organisations, we just need to let people know how simple it really is to address the major environmental problems faced by Thailand today, to make sure Thailand has a tomorrow!
quote:Originally posted by Andrew K FletcherTrees won't alter the climate?artificial trees are milking the moisture from the coastlines of Mexico and many other areas, using a simple nylon net and pipework to provide running water for villages that do not get sufficient rainfall.
quote:Originally posted by ValibrarianIs it a challenge when someone warns you that your house is on fire, and you ignore them?
quote:Originally posted by VAlibrarianOkay, I will reply to your last posting in the same constructive mode that you use. How can we seek to address the threat of climate change, at the same time that we are working on understanding it more fully by means of scientific research? Answer: work at the same time to reduce the amounts of Carbon gases we release into the atmosphere yearly. Use financial incentives to encourage conservation, or use punishments to discourage waste. Truly, we can do nothing to condense the massive amounts of CO2 we pumped out over the past 50 years. But we are not yet even reducing our annual contribution of CO2. You have to start somewhere. I vote that the USA adopt a policy of reducing our use of fossil fuels, and demand that other nations including China follow our example. That would be far superior to our current polcy of refusing to sign any international agreements due to concerns that they might slow our economy, with the result that the Third World feels free to ignore the issue of climate change and tries to imitate our sad devotion to automobile culture, despite the fact that there is not enough oil left in the ground for all of them to have cars. I will admit that this may be inadequate as a means of avoiding climate change altogether. But isn't it better to do something to at least mitigate the process, rather than dedicating ourselves to making it worse?chris wiegard
quote:Originally posted by Soul SurferThis discussion has got rather heated and polarised and its worth taking a step back in scientific detatchment.
quote:Firstly the earth's climate has changed greatly over the last 500 million years or so of complex life Normal complex life has managed to adapt to it successfully with occasional major extinction evenrts. For human life not to expect to have to adapt (in time)to changes as big as this is stupid.
quote:The big question is can intelligent life survive for a long time? On the whole I think it can but we have to remember the example of Easter island as what happens to a large isolated developed population as the resources run out.
quote:It seems very likely that sea level rises will force the evacuatiion of many low lying areas in the next hundred years or so. OK doing our bit will help stave off the evil day but as Malthus said many years ago the REAL ptroblem is overpopulation and until we get that stabilised we are doomed.
quote:But there is one more real and terrible risk that most people are forgetting and that is the time when the earth suffers the runaway greengouse effect and we will have to evacuate to mars!As part of its life cycle the sun is gradually getting hotter and the earth's climate compensation processes (see lovelock's work) are getting near the end stops. At some point (hopfully in the far distant future) this will run away as the oceans evaporate and disperse into space (the earth's gravity can only just hold on to water nd loses it quite quickly in a multi billion year time scale) and the earth will become like venus.
quote:Originally posted by Andrew K FletcherAnother Someone.Take a long hard look at the picture of fires in Thailand, then go look at some more pictures of the same mindless destruction going on in other countries, (there are lots to view on the NASA site). Pay special attention to the location of clouds forming over vegetated areas and the absence of moisture in the desertified areas.
quote:In fuengirola in Spain, the expats got fed up with the baron lifeless coastlines, and turned to inhabiting the baron hillsides. Here they planted trees and shrubs, and used hosepipes to establish them. Gradually they turned the hills green, and now report cloud cover when all around this area there is none, they also get more rain!
quote:A MASSIVE DOWNPOUR OF RAIN HIT FUENGIROLA LAST FRIDAY AT 18.00 WHEN 103 LITRES OF RAIN FELL ON THE TOWN WITHIN LITTLE MORE THAN TWO HOURS. By comparison, Málaga only recorded 20 litres throughout the day with Estepona receiving 13 litres and Ronda three. Within minutes of the huge deluge commencing, all the streets in Fuengirola and Las Lagunas were either partially or totally inundated with water. Numerous businesses were forced to close because of the enormous amount of water that poured through their doors. As the streets of Fuengirola were transformed into canals residents declared, 'this is like Venice'. Pedestrians who attempted to cross streets found themselves up to their waists in water. Water also poured into underground car parks completely covering the cars. A wall at the municipal sports pavilion in Las Lagunas gave way under the force of the waters. Rivers and streams overflowed. Access to Fuengirola from the motorway was cut and not reopened until 21.00. The occupants of seven cars inundated with water at the Las Lagunas roundabout were rescued by emergency services. The train service to Málaga was halted after a landslide at Carvajal. The Fuengirola and Mijas fire service rescued 90 people trapped in various zones of the two municipalities. Forty people who had sought refuge in an industrial unit on the Vega estate were brought to safety as too were 50 people rescued from their homes in Fuengirola. Fortunately none suffered injury.
quote:The weather in Fuengirola is very mild in winter and warm in summer. It doesn’t rain very much with a yearly average of 469.2 mm. The rain season is between November and March. The summer is very dry.
quote:Living on the coast, I have observed the pathways that sea born moisture takes when it meets the coast on many occasions. Even filming it as it crosses onto the land only where trees meet the coast. In the more built up areas, the moisture hugs the coast all day but does not cross over the hot dry beaches and hot black tarmac roads. When the mist vanishes from the coast, it remains in the wooded areas for many hours. On blazing hot days, these mist covered wooded areas are very cool with moisture dripping from the trees to the floor.In India, a mangrove forested island off India received ample moisture and rainfall from the ocean. The locals harvested the wooded areas until all the mangrove was removed. They then used the island for livestock, and it stopped raining, turning the island from once fertile land into desert, where it almost never rains now.
quote:Originally posted by VAlibrarianWell the discussion may be polarized, but I submit that we have stayed civil so far. And that is not always easy.
quote:popular realization that present trends cannot continue indefinitely.
quote:My basic point in all this is that free markets do not necesarily solve every human problem in a timely way.
quote: It is possible for a resource that is held in common, like oil, to be used in a wasteful way because if you do not use your share, somebody else will. I think that is the reason that they ran out of trees on Easter Island and killed each other over the remaining scraps of food until the Europeans arrived to enslave the survivors- because in a situation of competition between factions, it made no sense to conserve resources.
quote: It is also possible to say why should I worry, it will not be a serious problem in my lifetime- forgetting that we would all like our grandchildren to have pleasant and lengthy lives.
quote: Why use all the remaining petroleum of our planet in the next 100 years, for that matter.
quote:Space travel has never been viable for large numbers of humans. We are so far stuck with this planet, and it seems foolish to misuse resources and multiply our numbers beyond sustainable levels. Climate change is but one example of the consequences.