[rosalind dna (OP)]

I wonder if you can help me sort out this question please that's been
bothering me for a while now.

Recently I bought a quiche with bacon, eggs, pastry but also with
Sodium Nitrite. It seems a bit odd to have a chemical in any food,
I think.

What is this chemical and is harmful to humans?

If so what kind of reaction might they have?

Thanks loads,
Rosalind

[tommya300]

I wonder if you can help me sort out this question please that's been
bothering me for a while now.

Recently I bought a quiche with bacon, eggs, pastry but also with
Sodium Nitrite. It seems a bit odd to have a chemical in any food,
I think.

What is this chemical and is harmful to humans?

If so what kind of reaction might they have?

Thanks loads,
Rosalind

.
I found this exert if it helps a little...
I bet that there is more to it that someone else knows more of this subject in depth.

"Sodium nitrite is a dangerous, cancer-causing ingredient that has no place in the human food supply," he explains. The USDA actually tried to ban sodium nitrite in the 1970's, but was preempted by the meat processing industry, which relies on the ingredient as a color fixer to make foods look more visually appealing. "The meat industry uses sodium nitrite to sell more meat products at the expense of public health," says Adams. "And this new research clearly demonstrates the link between the consumption of processed meats and cancer."
 
http://www.organicconsumers.org/foodsafety/processedmeat050305.cfm

Here is something that will turn your socks inside out...

Sodium Nitrates
Sodium Nitrates are also known as Chilates or Chilean nitrate. The Nitrogen contained in Sodium Nitrate is refined and amounts to 16%. This means that the Nitrogen is immediately available to plants and as such is a valuable source of Nitrogen in a type of fertilizer. When one makes a soil amendment using Sodium Nitrates as a type of fertilizer in the garden, it is usually as a top- and side-dressing. Particularly when nursing young plants and garden vegetables. In soil that is acidic Sodium Nitrate is quite useful as a type of fertilizer. However, the excess use of Sodium Nitrate may cause deflocculation.

http://www.landscape-and-garden.com/garden-soil/fertilizer-types.aspx
.
.

[Bill.D.Katt.]

I actually asked my doctor this a while ago, and it seems that tommya300 had a very accurate answer. The main danger is that it is carcinogenic. But be careful when saying that "it seems a bit odd to have a chemical in any food." Everything is comprised of chemicals, table salt, humans, air...

[rosalind dna (OP)]

I wonder if you can help me sort out this question please that's been
bothering me for a while now.

Recently I bought a quiche with bacon, eggs, pastry but also with
Sodium Nitrite. It seems a bit odd to have a chemical in any food,
I think.

What is this chemical and is harmful to humans?

If so what kind of reaction might they have?

Thanks loads,
Rosalind

.
I found this exert if it helps a little...
I bet that there is more to it that someone else knows more of this subject in depth.

"Sodium nitrite is a dangerous, cancer-causing ingredient that has no place in the human food supply," he explains. The USDA actually tried to ban sodium nitrite in the 1970's, but was preempted by the meat processing industry, which relies on the ingredient as a color fixer to make foods look more visually appealing. "The meat industry uses sodium nitrite to sell more meat products at the expense of public health," says Adams. "And this new research clearly demonstrates the link between the consumption of processed meats and cancer."
 
http://www.organicconsumers.org/foodsafety/processedmeat050305.cfm

Here is something that will turn your socks inside out...

Sodium Nitrates
Sodium Nitrates are also known as Chilates or Chilean nitrate. The Nitrogen contained in Sodium Nitrate is refined and amounts to 16%. This means that the Nitrogen is immediately available to plants and as such is a valuable source of Nitrogen in a type of fertilizer. When one makes a soil amendment using Sodium Nitrates as a type of fertilizer in the garden, it is usually as a top- and side-dressing. Particularly when nursing young plants and garden vegetables. In soil that is acidic Sodium Nitrate is quite useful as a type of fertilizer. However, the excess use of Sodium Nitrate may cause deflocculation.

http://www.landscape-and-garden.com/garden-soil/fertilizer-types.aspx
.
.

Thanks Tommya300, for your interesting reply, I am rather concerned now seeing this from a British/European angle since
I'm aware that their food laws are quite rigid.
So why did the food company concerned (Higgidy) put a poison in
the quiche?   []
I am also thinking that if anyone with epilepsy like myself might have
a skin reaction?

I actually asked my doctor this a while ago, and it seems that tommya300 had a very accurate answer. The main danger is that it is carcinogenic. But be careful when saying that "it seems a bit odd to have a chemical in any food." Everything is comprised of chemicals, table salt, humans, air...

Thanks Bill,D.Katt for your reply, yes I realise that it is a carcinogenic
chemical that should never have been put in food.

Of course everything comprises of chemical like you said, salt, even fresh fruit and/or veg.

Rosalind

[SeanB]

It is a preservative that is added to a lot of food, to improve shelf life. Also present in smoked meats and to a small extent in all preserves.

Just remember that all chemicals are toxic in high enough doses, but can be good for you in small amounts.

[tommya300]

It is a preservative that is added to a lot of food, to improve shelf life. Also present in smoked meats and to a small extent in all preserves.

Just remember that all chemicals are toxic in high enough doses, but can be good for you in small amounts.

Yep, I do believe the old saying is, "to too much of a good thing, is bad"...
Although this subject question does not refer to gluttony the phrase might fit.

I think whatever, a presumably creditable, committee is responsible in putting together, particular studies, they have some way to determine the acceptable level limits of the particular types of toxic chemicals before they have a major affect on a particular percentage of the public.

 I have no idea what or how they come to these conclusions, but just a scenario that can give a rough idea, "It was found by "X" - institute, that rats get cancer in a week after given some quantity dosage, of some type of particular chemical." 
Most likely from studies from different institutions, under controlled conditions.
The scary part is the uncertainty of correctness!
 Sometimes they get some error results unknowingly and post these results to the public, as being the do all end all results...

 Then after a certain duration in time, the error is discovered because of some unknown variable and this is posted, changing that do all end all previous results...

"Oh no," we say!
Now what we the public need to do is decide between the two or if it is critical then the correction imposed by a ban and removing out of reach to the consumer or new regulations etc...
This info I gathered from the news and other article in the USA. Sometimes I feel like the public is being tested and this all is just a personal insight of my observation and can be taken with a non toxic level of Sodium Chloride, a grain or two..
.

[lightarrow]

Here is something that will turn your socks inside out...

Sodium Nitrates
Sodium Nitrates are also known as Chilates or Chilean nitrate. The Nitrogen contained in Sodium Nitrate is refined and amounts to 16%. This means that the Nitrogen is immediately available to plants and as such is a valuable source of Nitrogen in a type of fertilizer. When one makes a soil amendment using Sodium Nitrates as a type of fertilizer in the garden, it is usually as a top- and side-dressing. Particularly when nursing young plants and garden vegetables. In soil that is acidic Sodium Nitrate is quite useful as a type of fertilizer. However, the excess use of Sodium Nitrate may cause deflocculation.

What sodium nitrate or nitrates in general have to do with nitrites?
(Also, why the title is sodium "nitrates"? There is only one sodium nitrate...)

[lightarrow]

It's not nitrite per-se which is toxic, but a class of its methabolic/reaction products: nitrosamines.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nitrosamines
Anyway, nitrites are part of the normal diet since they are contained in vegetables:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodium_nitrite
Nitrites have been used as preservative and color improver of meat since many decades ago.

[tommya300]

Here is something that will turn your socks inside out...

Sodium Nitrates
Sodium Nitrates are also known as Chilates or Chilean nitrate. The Nitrogen contained in Sodium Nitrate is refined and amounts to 16%. This means that the Nitrogen is immediately available to plants and as such is a valuable source of Nitrogen in a type of fertilizer. When one makes a soil amendment using Sodium Nitrates as a type of fertilizer in the garden, it is usually as a top- and side-dressing. Particularly when nursing young plants and garden vegetables. In soil that is acidic Sodium Nitrate is quite useful as a type of fertilizer. However, the excess use of Sodium Nitrate may cause deflocculation.

What sodium nitrate or nitrates in general have to do with nitrites?
(Also, why the title is sodium "nitrates"? There is only one sodium nitrate...)

Good question! I blocked copied and pasted it and the reference.
 Maybe it is the language of the author? Wish I could answer that...

I am a heavy duty consumer of bacon, salami, balony and other meats from the deli and have not seen any warning labels on these packings. I am not claiming the expert here, I am just presenting things associated to the question.
Although, I do remember bacon having a different flavor back in the 50's.
The only time that memory slot is awakened, if I have a private slaughter smoke it in a home made smoke house and the Sodium Nitrates or nitrites are not used.
I only can assume the association, but it is repeatable for me.

Where does Sodium nitrite come from? This opened my eyes...

http://www.lakecounty-mt.org/envhealth/pdf/water_quality/Nitrate%20and%20Nitrite%20in%20Drinking%20Water.pdf
.

[rosalind dna (OP)]

It is a preservative that is added to a lot of food, to improve shelf life. Also present in smoked meats and to a small extent in all preserves.

Just remember that all chemicals are toxic in high enough doses, but can be good for you in small amounts.

Thanks SeanB for your answer and I am aware that all chemicals are toxic
only table salt was not banned in 1976, in the UK, Europe and USA.
I think that the UK food laws are also covered by the European food laws !

But the very fact that nitrItes are cancer causing is worrying to me and
probably yourself as well.


   

tommya300

Yep, I do believe the old saying is, "to too much of a good thing, is bad"...
Although this subject question does not refer to gluttony the phrase might fit.

I think whatever, a presumably creditable, committee is responsible in putting together, particular studies, they have some way to determine the acceptable level limits of the particular types of toxic chemicals before they have a major affect on a particular percentage of the public.

 I have no idea what or how they come to these conclusions, but just a scenario that can give a rough idea, "It was found by "X" - institute, that rats get cancer in a week after given some quantity dosage, of some type of particular chemical."
Most likely from studies from different institutions, under controlled conditions.
The scary part is the uncertainty of correctness!
 Sometimes they get some error results unknowingly and post these results to the public, as being the do all end all results...

 Then after a certain duration in time, the error is discovered because of some unknown variable and this is posted, changing that do all end all previous results...

"Oh no," we say!
Now what we the public need to do is decide between the two or if it is critical then the correction imposed by a ban and removing out of reach to the consumer or new regulations etc...
This info I gathered from the news and other article in the USA. Sometimes I feel like the public is being tested and this all is just a personal insight of my observation and can be taken with a non toxic level of Sodium Chloride, a grain or two..
.
« Last Edit: Today at 15:11:30 by tommya300 »

Tommya300, first I have a small appetite and knew when I saw that quiche
that it looked and tasted odd.

I do understand that you found the articles from an USA angle, but I've
said that I'm British so think of food laws to do with UK and European laws. Nope I am not a lawyer.

Sodium Chloride is the technical name for table salt !

Rats get GM version of cancer weekly not naturally, I think.
Sodium Nitrite is scary because it's a carcinogenic chemical and
if near skin it can produce rashes.

lightarrow

What sodium nitrate or nitrates in general have to do with nitrites?
(Also, why the title is sodium "nitrates"? There is only one sodium nitrate...)

lightarrow, I bought a quiche last week that had Sodium Nitrite in it
and I thought that I'd imagined it so I double checked today with a similar
food, it has that chemical in it.
But your links were interesting although they frightened me, a little bit.
I've reacted badly to it.

[tommya300]

.

Tommya300, first I have a small appetite and knew when I saw that quiche
that it looked and tasted odd.

I do understand that you found the articles from an USA angle, but I've
said that I'm British so think of food laws to do with UK and European laws. Nope I am not a lawyer.

Sodium Chloride is the technical name for table salt !

Rats get GM version of cancer weekly not naturally, I think.
Sodium Nitrite is scary because it's a carcinogenic chemical and
if near skin it can produce rashes.

Ok we are all Human! I was not in a full coherent mode and probably still unable to get there.
 The details do seem to have spread across the big pond too.  There are concerns

http://www.food.gov.uk/multimedia/pdfs/com2004650.pdf

http://www.efsa.europa.eu/EFSA/efsa_locale-1178620753812_1178712852460.htm

http://www.ethicalcorp.com/content.asp?ContentID=2923

http://www.healthfoodemporium.com/index_dangerous-ingredients.php

I can not seem to find anything more current

The Salt thing was a metafore... e.g. "take it with a grain of salt", which means,  "to say take my opinion lightly."
The rat thing was not to be meant as total fact, just an imaginary process to get an idea of how and why results are determined, as an example. I guess I messed that up too.
.

[lightarrow]

lightarrow, I bought a quiche last week that had Sodium Nitrite in it
and I thought that I'd imagined it so I double checked today with a similar
food, it has that chemical in it.
But your links were interesting although they frightened me, a little bit.
I've reacted badly to it.

What is a "quiche"? I don't find it in the dictionary.

[lightarrow]

Where does Sodium nitrite come from? This opened my eyes...

http://www.lakecounty-mt.org/envhealth/pdf/water_quality/Nitrate%20and%20Nitrite%20in%20Drinking%20Water.pdf

In the document you linked it's written:

"when the average of two analyses shows concentrations of nitrate that exceed 10 milligrams per liter (parts per million), or nitrite concentrations that exceed 1 milligram per liter, public drinking water suppliers are required to notify their customers to provide an alternate source of drinking water for all liquids or foods prepared for infants under six months of age."

Don't know if it refers to USA or UK or else, anyway Italy is more restrictive for what concerns nitrites = NO₂^-, since the limit is only 0.5 milligrams per liter (for nitrates is less restrictive, since the limit is 50, however there is also the limit: [NO₃^-]/50 + [NO₂^-]/0.5 < 1).

[tommya300]

Where does Sodium nitrite come from? This opened my eyes...

http://www.lakecounty-mt.org/envhealth/pdf/water_quality/Nitrate%20and%20Nitrite%20in%20Drinking%20Water.pdf

In the document you linked it's written:

"when the average of two analyses shows concentrations of nitrate that exceed 10 milligrams per liter (parts per million), or nitrite concentrations that exceed 1 milligram per liter, public drinking water suppliers are required to notify their customers to provide an alternate source of drinking water for all liquids or foods prepared for infants under six months of age."

Don't know if it refers to USA or UK or else, anyway Italy is more restrictive for what concerns nitrites = NO₂^-, since the limit is only 0.5 milligrams per liter (for nitrates is less restrictive, since the limit is 50, however there is also the limit: [NO₃^-]/50 + [NO₂^-]/0.5 < 1).

Sorry lightarrow the google brought me straight to the PDF
If you scroll down that page you will see a reference NSF
It must be the USA versions since I did not specify in my previous searches for "European" views, before it was pointed out to me by Roselind.
By the way thanks Roselind for putting me in the correct direction!
.

[tommya300]

lightarrow, I bought a quiche last week that had Sodium Nitrite in it
and I thought that I'd imagined it so I double checked today with a similar
food, it has that chemical in it.
But your links were interesting although they frightened me, a little bit.
I've reacted badly to it.

What is a "quiche"? I don't find it in the dictionary.

James Bonds favorite when nothing is in the cooler except for eggs and some cheese etc.
Who says real men do not eat quiche, it is similar to pizza gain in Italia. Yummy
You must get out more often, the fantastic cooking around the world, I will see you when you appear on a cooking show that is my distance in travels :-)...
quiche   /kiʃ/  Show Spelled[keesh]  Show IPA
–noun
a pielike dish consisting of an unsweetened pastry shell filled with a custard and usually containing cheese and other ingredients, as vegetables, seafood, or ham: spinach quiche.

[rosalind dna (OP)]

What is a "quiche"? I don't find it in the dictionary.
[/quote]

lightarrow, I'll do my best to explain what a "quiche" is.
It's a French version of a savoury flan or an un-covered pie.
The word comes from the Garman for Cake (kuchen)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quiche

Rosalind

[rosalind dna (OP)]

Ok we are all Human! I was not in a full coherent mode and probably still unable to get there.
 The details do seem to have spread across the big pond too.  There are concerns

http://www.food.gov.uk/multimedia/pdfs/com2004650.pdf

http://www.efsa.europa.eu/EFSA/efsa_locale-1178620753812_1178712852460.htm

http://www.ethicalcorp.com/content.asp?ContentID=2923

http://www.healthfoodemporium.com/index_dangerous-ingredients.php

I can not seem to find anything more current

The Salt thing was a metafore... e.g. "take it with a grain of salt", which means,  "to say take my opinion lightly."
The rat thing was not to be meant as total fact, just an imaginary process to get an idea of how and why results are determined, as an example. I guess I messed that up too.
.

OK, tommya300 Thanks for the very interesting articles especially the first one from the EU. I've bookmarked it.

I do know that phrase "take it with a grain/pinch of salt", alright
about the rats.
No you didn't make a mistake but I'm clearly learning stuff that I never
thought possible about every day food(s).

Although since NitrItres are cancer causing to the liver is worrying
and has been known since the 1970s.

lightarrow


"when the average of two analyses shows concentrations of nitrate that exceed 10 milligrams per liter (parts per million), or nitrite concentrations that exceed 1 milligram per liter, public drinking water suppliers are required to notify their customers to provide an alternate source of drinking water for all liquids or foods prepared for infants under six months of age."

Don't know if it refers to USA or UK or else, anyway Italy is more restrictive for what concerns nitrites = NO2-, since the limit is only 0.5 milligrams per liter (for nitrates is less restrictive, since the limit is 50, however there is also the limit: [NO3-]/50 + [NO2-]/0.5 < 1).

lightarrow, when I noticed that you live in Italy then I thought that
you might be aware of the EU food laws.
That is interesting to know that Italy is far more restrictive with Nitrates and Nitrites, if only the UK governments were the same.

But if Nitrites are dangerous then they should never have been put in any sort of food, I think.

[Bill.D.Katt.]

I believe that nitrates are metabolized into nitrites. Interesting story I heard (don't know if it is true), Potassium nitrate (KNO3) was used as an anti-erectile. I'm not sure if this is true, and if it is, for how long it was used I don't know. On the potassium side I figured the lethal dose of KNO3 to be about 50 grams, that is acute exposure of course. The danger of the nitrates and nitrites is chronic.

[rosalind dna (OP)]

I believe that nitrates are metabolized into nitrites. Interesting story I heard (don't know if it is true), Potassium nitrate (KNO3) was used as an anti-erectile. I'm not sure if this is true, and if it is, for how long it was used I don't know. On the potassium side I figured the lethal dose of KNO3 to be about 50 grams, that is acute exposure of course. The danger of the nitrates and nitrites is chronic.

Bill.D.Katt, that is an interesting story, potassium is naturally in all fresh green leaves eg salads, spinach and so on
even fresh fruit which I eat loads of.

Those measurements of nitrates and nitrites are worrying if
they really are chronic.

 

[Bored chemist]

As long as your kidneys are working properly the potassium is not going to make any difference. There's lots of it in your diet and the body uses what it needs and excretes the rest in the urine.

We have been eating nitrates since ever we existed, they are present in quite a variety of green vegetables.

Some of the nitrate we ingest will be metabolised by gut bacteria to nitrite.

Some, but not all of that nitrite will go on to form nitrosamines.
If it reacts with a primary amine then you will get a little nitrogen gas and the corresponding alcohol. Since proteins are full of primary amines, most of the nitrite will be degraded this way.
If some reacts with secondary amines to form nitrosamines then there is a risk that these will cause cancer.

However, you need to look at the other side of the risk/benefit analysis too.
Putting nitrites (or nitrates) into things like quiche will stop botulism from growing in it; it also reduces the growth of other bugs. (They also make meat products look more pink/red which improves their selling power)

You are trading a very small risk of cancer against the small risk of death from food borne bacteria.