Do aliens exist?

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Offline omid

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Do aliens exist?
« on: 02/08/2010 18:07:40 »
Last night omid was watching this movie where a scientist communicate with the aliens and invite them on the earth through a special computer and the UFO actually lands on the earth.
omid's question is that is there any evidence found if aliens exist really?
if yes, how do we know?
if no,how do we know again?

any comment would be appreciated [:)]

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Offline neilep

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« Reply #1 on: 02/08/2010 20:19:44 »
In MY opinion......the univserse is just so vast...bigger than ewe can possibly imagine....and new planets are being discovered every day that in MY opinion....life does..probably has..... and will exist somewhere else. It's quite possible that life exists elsewhere in our own solar system too.

Now ewe are being specific to the kind of alien life that ewe see in sci fi films and I am sure that intelliegent life of (of all levels compared to us) probably exists elsewhere too...in my opinion !

Just investigate some of the numbers regarding how big the universe is...and then it becomes almost difficult to believe that life does not exist anywhere else........oh...did i mention that this is in all my opinion !!
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Offline Make it Lady

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« Reply #2 on: 02/08/2010 23:05:31 »
As conditions have to be quite specific in order for life to exist, in my opinion, I don't think there are too many aliens per universe but there must be some out there. I guess we will only find out if we get a message. The good people at Jodrell bank are always listening and they have enormous ears pointing into the sky. I used to live really close to them. In my opinion we don't have any advanced species in our near proximity or they would have already contacted us.
Give a man a fire and he is warm for a day, set a man on fire and he is warm for the rest of his life.

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Offline neilep

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« Reply #3 on: 03/08/2010 00:08:38 »
 . . . . .actually i think i was  contacted because i just received a text from am unknown sender. . . .The message reads "get 2 pizzas for the price of one" creepy !!
Men are the same as women, just inside out !

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Offline tommya300

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« Reply #4 on: 03/08/2010 00:35:52 »
. . . . .actually i think i was  contacted because i just received a text from am unknown sender. . . .The message reads "get 2 pizzas for the price of one" creepy !!

I got something of the same...
"get 2 pizzas for the price of one" Cheapy !!

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Offline demografx

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« Reply #5 on: 03/08/2010 01:24:18 »

With the most recent X-Conference in May at The National Press Club in Washington,D.C., it's getting harder and harder to not believe that there is a massive amount of highly credible evidence worldwide as to the existence of extraterrestrial beings and technology.

About the X-conference:
http://www.paradigmresearchgroup.org/X-Conference2010/X-Conference2010.htm

press conference video
http://vimeo.com/11760935 


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Offline demografx

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« Reply #6 on: 03/08/2010 03:14:48 »

press conference video (Part 2) - UK RAF Bentwaters disclosure
http://vimeo.com/11777870

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Offline JP

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« Reply #7 on: 03/08/2010 11:48:00 »
With the most recent X-Conference in May at The National Press Club in Washington,D.C., it's getting harder and harder to not believe that there is a massive amount of highly credible evidence worldwide as to the existence of extraterrestrial beings and technology.

I find it quite easy to believe that there is no credible evidence out there, especially when the alternative is a conspiracy to cover up UFO sightings.  But regardless, there is no credible evidence available to science, and therefore no evidence of extraterrestrial life.

That doesn't mean that it isn't out there.  I happen to agree with neil that it's extremely likely that life exists elsewhere in the universe.  But it's very difficult to say what those odds are, since you'd need to know about how life can arise in a variety of conditions, and so far the only sample we have is the earth!

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Offline neilep

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« Reply #8 on: 03/08/2010 15:21:20 »
There are many examples of life living under extreme conditions here on earth of course.....a whole variety adapted to 'non-human' conditions.
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Offline demografx

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« Reply #9 on: 03/08/2010 18:04:55 »

JP, I think I agree with your point of scientific evidence. What sways me is more in the form of massive testimony from a very large array of very credible "witnesses" and participants (astronauts, scientists, presidents, top military personnel, police chiefs, commercial airline pilots, physicians, surgeons, conferences at  MIT, etc.). More along the lines of evidence that would hold up in a court of law rather than a scientific laboratory. How can we totally dismiss this?
« Last Edit: 05/08/2010 02:08:18 by demografx »

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Offline demografx

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« Reply #10 on: 03/08/2010 20:29:10 »


I think the key question here is: what does the believer/disbeliever think constitutes real "evidence"?

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Offline neilep

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« Reply #11 on: 03/08/2010 20:47:54 »
I just looked in my fridge for something that my wife cooked**. It seems to have developed it's own intelligence !











**The word 'cooked' here is used for indicative purposes in that the said item has undergone some form of preparation and treatment.
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Offline demografx

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« Reply #12 on: 03/08/2010 22:42:03 »

See? Neil has just presented the kind of 'firm' evidence that we all need!

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Offline Soul Surfer

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« Reply #13 on: 03/08/2010 23:07:12 »
Looking at things generally it is just about certain that basic  life exists many times elsewhere in the observable universe and extremely probable that many examples of intelligent life with a capability at least equal to ours also exist in the observable universe at this moment.  The big questions are, is it close enough and does it last long enough to have some chance of communicating with us.  Even more fundamentally will we last long enough to communicate with them!

Most people just do not realise how big our galaxy is, let alone the size of the universe and how sparsely stars are distributed.

We have only had radio communications for about one hundred years and any radio signals from us have hardly reached even the most local bits in our galaxy and any returned message would take at least as long.  The galaxy is one hundred thousand light years across and one hundred light years is only .1% of this and only contains a relatively small number of stars which are in our area around 4 light years apart. or about 50 cubic light years per star or in a volume of radius 100 light years  around 20,000 stars most of which are very small and dim.  Note this does not mean that they are poor possibilities of life because small dim stars are the most stable and long lived and planets at habitable distances are unlikely ever to be disturbed by close encounters with other stars.
« Last Edit: 03/08/2010 23:10:21 by Soul Surfer »
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Offline demografx

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« Reply #14 on: 04/08/2010 05:29:38 »

It's hard to think that "I Love Lucy", "Howdy Doody", and "Amos & Andy" is how we might all be represented to "them". [:)]

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Offline JP

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« Reply #15 on: 04/08/2010 06:08:34 »
We have only had radio communications for about one hundred years and any radio signals from us have hardly reached even the most local bits in our galaxy and any returned message would take at least as long. 

And the signal power of those early transmissions is going to die off roughly like 1/R2, where R is the distance the signal has traveled.  I wonder if these signals are even detectable against background noise at 100 light years...

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Offline Murchie85

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« Reply #16 on: 04/08/2010 18:17:23 »
There may even be life in our back yard in the solar system, or something that constitutes life but very basic and would probably be single celled anyway or at least may have existed billions of years ago when conditions were different. 

Intelligent life is a whole different kettle of fish, a thing worth the consideration is as soul surfer tried to give us an understanding of the sheer vastness of the universe and our galaxy, intelligent lifeforms may just simply see it as too big a waste of resources to journey to earth as we would have little to offer a civilization that could master the engineering and scientific challenges of traversing light years to earth. Even from a resources point of view, there isn't much on earth that could not be found elsewhere and in more abundance.

As for the chance to interact with lifeforms on a planet (earth) that is dominated by predatory species that feed of others (figuratively, literally and metaphorically) and has almost no unifying government that could agree unanimously on any form of exchange, trade or diplomatic relations well I will leave that for you to decide. 
« Last Edit: 04/08/2010 18:19:08 by Murchie85 »

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Online syhprum

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« Reply #17 on: 04/08/2010 21:10:59 »
Although there can be no doubt that in the vastness of the universe other forms of advanced and technologically able beings exist their rarity must be such that given the limited speed of light no communication could be possible.
I used to be enthusiastic about S.E.T.I but now believe it to be futile
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Offline Murchie85

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« Reply #18 on: 04/08/2010 21:53:18 »
Syhprum I totally understand your frustration and am inclined to agree slightly I think relying on radio waves and thing that propagate at the speed of light is an ineffective way of communications between the huge voids and advance civilizations would also realize that and have developed other means.

The DRAKE EQUATION is a good way of breaking the information down into digestible bits.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dilKJ6uLCc8

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Offline demografx

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« Reply #19 on: 05/08/2010 02:23:12 »
If we in fact have some reasonable evidence that alien technology that could help advance our civilization is being withheld, should we push for disclosure?

BTW, "conspiracy theories" turn me off, but how do I dismiss this huge lineup of credible 'witnesses' ? (as I posted above http://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?topic=33287.msg318326#msg318326 )

I'm not proselytizing, I'm seriously soliciting advice - one way or the other - as to whether I should bother getting involved.
« Last Edit: 05/08/2010 17:02:11 by demografx »

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Offline imatfaal

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« Reply #20 on: 05/08/2010 14:18:28 »
Demo,

I read through the list of speakers at the x-conference (from your link) - I must admit I was pretty underwhelmed.  You mention above standards of legal proof against a scientific standard; very little of the testimony I have seen for alien visitation would be enough to get to trial let alone secure a conviction.  Uncorroborated witness testimony, with no physical evidence, especially in an area which has its share of charlatans and hoaxers(qv crop circles) would not constitute even prima facie evidence.  I would not question the honesty and self-belief of the majority of the participants at such conferences - but people can convince themselves of anything (you mention the conspiracy theorists).

There are probably thousands of amateur astronomers with fairly decent optics and cameras out every night in the UK alone - yet not one decent photograph.  To dedicate any real time to this area is, in my belief, a little wasteful - there are so many areas where amateur scientists make a real difference it would be a shame to devote effort to a fruitless pursuit. 

Matthew

BTW I desperately want there to be aliens - I just don't believe they come here on day trips
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Offline graham.d

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« Reply #21 on: 05/08/2010 14:52:35 »
The sun is about 4.5 billion years old. Most of the stars in the galaxy vary from 1 billion to 10 billion years old. Life on earth is thought to have started possibly as early as 3.5 billion years ago with early humans only about 200,000 years ago. It does not need a lot of maths to realise that if life is anything like common in the galaxy, then the likely range of development must be something like between 5.5 billion years in advance of earth's to 2.5 billion years behind. 

Assuming that humans are not in any way special then we are faced with a huge range in the development of alien cultures (+/- billions of years). If interstellar travel is in any way practical it is unimaginable (at least to me) that such aliens would not know about earth already.  If, for any reason, they visit or monitor the earth we simply would not know about it if they did not want to let us be aware of them; the technology difference would be too great. On this basis I doubt the veracity of sightings and rather feel that there is little point pondering the issue until the aliens, should they be around, wish to communicate with us. I doubt this will happen until we reach the stage of being "in their faces" (if they have them) and have interstellar travel capability, which is a long time off I think.

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Online syhprum

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« Reply #22 on: 05/08/2010 16:11:28 »
The only way I can conceive of inter stellar travel being possible is if the crew have a different conception of time to us with lifetimes of maybe 100,000 years.
In this case their communitions would be at a much lower data rate, the Aricibo receivers that S.E.T.I use look for signals within a bendwidth of about 1 Hz perhaps they should be using a bandwidth of 0.001 Hz which might be difficult.
« Last Edit: 05/08/2010 18:09:27 by syhprum »
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Offline demografx

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« Reply #23 on: 05/08/2010 16:44:20 »

Matthew, I sincerely appreciate your view, and I will seriously take it into account as I deliberate how much, if any, time I should put into this direction.

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Offline graham.d

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« Reply #24 on: 05/08/2010 16:54:38 »
Syphrum, I would not rule out interstellar travel just because we can't see how to do it. Our understanding is limited. Who knows what can be worked out in the next million years or so, or even just 1000 years. Agreed there are the slight obstacles of the vast energy required and problems of time dilation (or very slow travel - take your pick), but there may be ways around these limitations (warp drives, wormholes etc) given enough knowledge and a little engineering.

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Offline Voltaire

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« Reply #25 on: 05/08/2010 19:35:59 »
Let us, for the sake of the argument, assume that alien life does exist and that 'they' can visit earth because they are advanced. What would they see when they get here? Take yourself out of this world and look at it objectively...
1. humans are at war with each other, sometimes genocidally so
2. there is murder and mayhem, psychosis-inducing drugs and so on
3. there are madmen at the head of some countries
4. there is competition for technology so that we can build better bombs with which to kill each other
5. there is competition for resources because there are too many of us
6. our laws allow us to take from the poor to give more to the rich
7. the people sworn to protect society (even those who are elected) are corruptible and evil
8. we squander resources at each others' expense because we believe that consumerism is good for us
9. the most profound philosophies e.g. religion has tuned us into stark raving lunatics

Now consider the alien from planet X:
They are at war with planet Y about a Dyson sphere that they built together. They basically have the same problems as us but on a different level. Planet Y also knows about us.
What happens when Mr. X lands in Washington? Does Mrs. Y land a delegation in Pyongyang? And what happens if they show us their 'stuff' and our view of the cosmos is so fundamentally challenged that we think they are devils? And who do we trust? Mr. X or Mrs. Y. And what if Mrs. Y is REALLY acting in our interest but their species is uglier than Mr. X's species? Do we believe Vanity Fair or the political review? And who is bribing who at the top level and how much is big business getting? And what if Mrs. Y has already cut a deal with big business and their lobby groups? So what if a couple of billion of us die? There are too many of us anyway!

But hey; somewhere there is also a level III civilization who are watching 'them' and 'us' closely and who wisely decide that it is not a good idea for Mr. X and Mrs. Y to land here. So they explode their vessels with, as yet undiscovered and untraceable, energy beams.

And who knows who watches the watchers...

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Offline Murchie85

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« Reply #26 on: 05/08/2010 22:31:40 »
Agreed with Graham, what seems impossible or outlandish sometimes becomes reality. I bet if you described todays world to a scientist 120 years ago they would laugh... and probably hang you :D In seriousness though I don't see a reason why that trend can't continue and ways of ftl may be a reality.
A room with monkeys typewriters given a huge period of time could type the script of Shakespeare just like an alien race with a huge time for development could find away around the problems of interstellar travel. 

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Offline neilep

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« Reply #27 on: 06/08/2010 08:33:53 »
I now have the categorical proof that ALIENS do exist !!

Watch this and be amazed ..

http://www.metacafe.com/watch/2473203/louis_therouxs_weird_weekends_korton/
Men are the same as women, just inside out !

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Offline Voltaire

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« Reply #28 on: 06/08/2010 12:09:20 »
General McAuliffe said it best: NUTS!

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Offline demografx

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« Reply #29 on: 06/08/2010 23:51:31 »
I now have the categorical proof that ALIENS do exist !!

Watch this and be amazed ..

http://www.metacafe.com/watch/2473203/louis_therouxs_weird_weekends_korton/

Neil, I just KNEWE if anyone could solve this ancient question, it would be...EWE!

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Offline demografx

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« Reply #30 on: 07/08/2010 05:01:07 »

And, Sheepy Neil, the most absolutely convincing evidence is the small model spacecraft (not to be confused with a plastic toy!!) - sitting off to the side of the Space Channeler as he conducts his incredible Extraterrestrial Visitation!

Champagne celebration is in order here!!! Skeptics: eat your heart out! [:)]

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Online syhprum

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« Reply #31 on: 07/08/2010 09:12:55 »
"A room with monkeys typewriters given a huge period of time could type the script of Shakespeare"

If you do the calculation of the time it would take for this roomfull of monkeys to type out the complete works of Shakespeare you will find it vastly greater than the conceivable life of the universe 
syhprum

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Offline Murchie85

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« Reply #32 on: 07/08/2010 10:01:20 »
Syphrum the Shakespeare reference was not to be connected with the concievability of life, but more to do with the time it would take a race to master FTL, the point being given a huge amount of time pretty much anything can be achieved within limits. 

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Offline demografx

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« Reply #33 on: 07/08/2010 18:57:58 »

Neil, do ewe get the impression that you and I are the only ones taking each other seriously here???

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Offline JP

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« Reply #34 on: 07/08/2010 19:04:24 »
I now have the categorical proof that ALIENS do exist !!

Watch this and be amazed ..

http://www.metacafe.com/watch/2473203/louis_therouxs_weird_weekends_korton/

Bad news!  I was doing some research on the subject* and I came across this disturbing link...

http://demicouture.ca/2009/12/02/toddlands-piece-de-resistance-aliensheep-sweater-is-knit-gold/

I think they're after you, Neil!

*Ok... so I was Googling +alien +sheep +abduction

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Offline neilep

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« Reply #35 on: 07/08/2010 19:32:23 »

Neil, do ewe get the impression that you and I are the only ones taking each other seriously here???

Quite right Demo !..we ae dealing with this subject in a most scientific authoritative way .....with diligence and duty !
Men are the same as women, just inside out !

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Offline neilep

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« Reply #36 on: 07/08/2010 19:39:41 »
I now have the categorical proof that ALIENS do exist !!

Watch this and be amazed ..

http://www.metacafe.com/watch/2473203/louis_therouxs_weird_weekends_korton/

Bad news!  I was doing some research on the subject* and I came across this disturbing link...

http://demicouture.ca/2009/12/02/toddlands-piece-de-resistance-aliensheep-sweater-is-knit-gold/

I think they're after you, Neil!

*Ok... so I was Googling +alien +sheep +abduction

Uh oh !!...ewe're right....they are after me....the manufacturers are still awaiting their next consignment of sheepy wool that I owe them !  [;)]
« Last Edit: 07/08/2010 19:44:59 by neilep »
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Offline demografx

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« Reply #37 on: 07/08/2010 19:54:51 »
Sheepy Neil, I'm afraid JP is right!!!

             
               

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Offline Murchie85

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« Reply #38 on: 10/08/2010 18:55:06 »
I think titan may hold a key to strange different life from earth that is a small but real possibility. The only other planet in the solar system which has a dense atmosphere, seas, possibly lakes and rivers (of ethane not water) with an active climate of wind and rain and features similar to earth such as sand dunes etc.

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Offline demografx

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« Reply #39 on: 10/08/2010 22:33:29 »

Well, as far as evidence go, we don't have much...

...We do not know for sure if life is present in our solar system, let alone our galaxy, let alone the Universe!


Does anyone else think that there's a reasonable possibility that some evidence is being withheld?

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Offline Joe L. Ogan

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« Reply #40 on: 10/08/2010 23:00:04 »

Well, as far as evidence go, we don't have much...

...We do not know for sure if life is present in our solar system, let alone our galaxy, let alone the Universe!


Does anyone else think that there's a reasonable possibility that some evidence is being withheld?

I rather doubt that information is being withheld.  That sort of information would find a way of being revealed.  Thanks for comments.  Joe L. Ogan

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Offline Murchie85

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« Reply #41 on: 10/08/2010 23:11:29 »
Rami, you are right, well spotted Titan is a moon of saturn I guess I forgot when I was generalizing places for life.

In terms of information being withheld about ET life well I think that would be very doubtful as a secret that big would eventually leak as someone would sooner or later spill the beans. I don't see the governments of the world being able to hold any more information than the civilian and industry when it comes to extra terrestrial phenomena.. but there is always the chance...

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Offline demografx

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« Reply #42 on: 11/08/2010 03:44:29 »


Well, as far as evidence go, we don't have much...

...We do not know for sure if life is present in our solar system, let alone our galaxy, let alone the Universe!


Does anyone else think that there's a reasonable possibility that some evidence is being withheld?


I rather doubt that information is being withheld.  That sort of information would find a way of being revealed.  Thanks for comments.  Joe L. Ogan


Here's some interesting testimony by Dr Edgar Mitchell, former NASA astronaut - at last year's X-Conference, about which I posted here earlier:
http://www.cnn.com/2009/TECH/04/20/ufo.conference/index.html?iref=allsearch

And his interview on The Discovery Channel:
http://dsc.discovery.com/space/qa/alien-ufo-edgar-mitchell.html


Dr Mitchell earned his PhD from MIT and studied astronomy at Harvard and MIT.

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Offline Ophiolite

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« Reply #43 on: 11/08/2010 09:51:25 »
The only way I can conceive of inter stellar travel being possible is if the crew have a different conception of time to us with lifetimes of maybe 100,000 years.
1. Our ancestors were not averse to undertaking voyages of several years duration for exploration. Darwin, for example spent almost 7% of his life on the Beagle. If our hypothetical aliens had a lifespan of only five hundred years and were willing to devote similar ppercentage of their lives they could comfortably travel to adjacent stars moving at no more than 10% of the speed of light.
2. Large generation ships could travel very long distances at slow speeds.
3. Deep freeze the crew and revive them on arrival.
4. Send only frozen embryos or eggs and sperm. Have AIs initiate growth on arrival at the target system, and raise the first generation.
5. How it's actually done, but I haven't thought of yet.
Observe; collate; conjecture; analyse; hypothesise; test; validate; theorise. Repeat until complete.

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Online syhprum

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Do aliens exist?
« Reply #44 on: 11/08/2010 10:03:33 »
There are big problems with traveling a 1. c small flecks of paint are considered a worry for satellites travelling at 10Km/s guess what a speck of dust would do to a spacecraft travelling at .1 c 
syhprum

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Offline Murchie85

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Do aliens exist?
« Reply #45 on: 11/08/2010 11:23:31 »
.Transportation via entanglement or quantum tunneling
.Hyperspace via wormholes(if it exists)
.sub light percentage of speed drives eg anti matter, or tritium fusion drives (just with a way to avoid interacting with debris would be a major issue)
.folding space

These are just a few hypothetical means to travel across the galaxy/universe effectively but they all require one thing HUGE amounts of energy, our combined consumption and production of our planet does not even approach 1% of whats needed so from an outsiders perspective what would be the point in venturing to a planet thats got little to offer (although they could fuel up at jupiter resources wise).

Again just to re iterate a civilization that has mastered intergalactic travel would have little to gain from us culturally, technologically and spiritually even with our diversity they would probably more likely be seeking out their equals or peers in the universe.
In short we don't go to ant hills and say to the ants "take me to your leader, I bring trinkets and treasures to share" {quote Micheo Kaku theoretical Physicist new york}.

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Offline imatfaal

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Do aliens exist?
« Reply #46 on: 11/08/2010 13:26:21 »
Again just to re iterate a civilization that has mastered intergalactic travel would have little to gain from us culturally, technologically and spiritually even with our diversity they would probably more likely be seeking out their equals or peers in the universe.
In short we don't go to ant hills and say to the ants "take me to your leader, I bring trinkets and treasures to share" {quote Micheo Kaku theoretical Physicist new york}.

Much as I like Micheo Kaku - he's wrong; we do that all the time.  We presume that we are not understood - and the trinkets and treasure are food in a controlled environment - but every day hundreds of experiments are undertaken that involve gifts of food to other species to induce communication.  Just today on the radio they were describing a breakthrough with an orang-utan that can perform mimes of the action he wants his human audience to re-enact.  If you give the orang a sealed coconut he will mime opening it with a machete and then hand it back to be opened. 

But we presume that the animals don't really understand us, perhaps the aliens have made similar presumptions; so I guess your point still stands

Matthew
Thereís no sense in being precise when you donít even know what youíre talking about.  John Von Neumann

At the surface, we may appear as intellects, helpful people, friendly staff or protectors of the interwebs. Deep down inside, we're all trolls. CaptainPanic @ sf.n

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Offline Ophiolite

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Do aliens exist?
« Reply #47 on: 11/08/2010 16:56:30 »
There are big problems with traveling a 1. c small flecks of paint are considered a worry for satellites travelling at 10Km/s guess what a speck of dust would do to a spacecraft travelling at .1 c 
Big problems are what engineering is for. Magnetic fields deflect any charged particles. Lasers distinegrate larger items. Subtle adjustments to course allow avoidance of sizeable objects. and you have a ruddy big ablative shield sticking out in front. 10 metres thick layered composites should do the trick.
Observe; collate; conjecture; analyse; hypothesise; test; validate; theorise. Repeat until complete.

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Offline imatfaal

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« Reply #48 on: 12/08/2010 16:01:16 »
Subtle course adjustments whilst travelling at ten percent of the speed of light?  Back of envelope calcs a grain of salt at 0.1c has kinetic energy in the terajoule range - about a tenth of the original atomic bombs.
Thereís no sense in being precise when you donít even know what youíre talking about.  John Von Neumann

At the surface, we may appear as intellects, helpful people, friendly staff or protectors of the interwebs. Deep down inside, we're all trolls. CaptainPanic @ sf.n

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Offline Joe L. Ogan

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Do aliens exist?
« Reply #49 on: 12/08/2010 17:59:16 »
Is that really true?  Thanks for comments.  Joe L. Ogan