Will hot water freeze faster than cold water?

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Offline Geezer

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Will hot water freeze faster than cold water?
« Reply #50 on: 07/09/2010 08:43:23 »
I strongly suspect this is reproducible, though it certainly doesn't overturn thermodynamics, but that it's not worth the time and effort required to do a systematic study that controls for all the variables.  This one is essentially in the realm of enthusiasts and high school science fair projects rather than high-tech labs.

I strongly suspect this is a load of complete bollocks  [;D]

This chestnut has been going the rounds for close on fifty years. If there was an actual phenomenon to investigate, I'd think fifty years would be sufficient time for someone to come up with at least one repeatable experiment.
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Offline JP

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« Reply #51 on: 07/09/2010 08:54:30 »
The Jearl Walker one seems to be fairly repeatable.

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Offline Geezer

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« Reply #52 on: 07/09/2010 09:01:52 »
The Jearl Walker one seems to be fairly repeatable.

fairly?

Don't we need one that is repeatable? Fifty years is almost as old as me.
« Last Edit: 07/09/2010 09:03:28 by Geezer »
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Offline JP

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« Reply #53 on: 07/09/2010 10:07:25 »
Nope.  So long as you can repeat it at a rate that's above experimental error, it's probably a real effect.  Whether its 50 or 1000 years old doesn't matter if it meets this criteria. 

Understanding all the parameters that effect the result is a totally different story--and one that isn't worth exploring for most scientists because the effort involved in the experiments is far beyond the payoff--the explanation is probably fairly mundane and not very useful (not to mention that any research in this area is probably completely unfunded). 

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Offline peppercorn

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« Reply #54 on: 07/09/2010 12:46:35 »
Oh, I see where this is going...
An experiment on water that is dismissed by most scientists...

This is clearly not dismissal, this is subversion by the scientific establishment - as the explanation for this phenomenon would prove the truth about 'cars that run on water' scam invention that big-oil is suppressing  [;)]

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Offline JP

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« Reply #55 on: 07/09/2010 14:43:12 »
Mhmm... It's because the water has memory.  But you can only see the truth if you wear your tungsten hat to keep the microwaves out.

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Offline Joe L. Ogan

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« Reply #56 on: 07/09/2010 15:10:20 »
Is it good science to ignore facts?  The anomaly has been repeated numerous times.  If we ignore facts, science will be reflected by who can shout the loudest.  I do not believe that science should be based on who can shout the loudest.  Thanks for comments.  Joe L. Ogan

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Offline lightarrow

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« Reply #57 on: 07/09/2010 15:48:12 »
maybe this is possible Geezer?

Producing a miniature weather pattern:
Steamy energetic water, in  a container, producing water vapors, is placed in a freezer.
The surface of the water in the container is cooling as the vapors escape.
But not all water vapors are lost, some condense and circulate above in a cycle to attempt to gain a lattice crystal structure, precipitates, dropping to the surface and transfers the exchange of heat.
When the water surface reaches its highest density the lattice crystallization begins at the condensed vapor level  and begins to displace the warm water below it. As this happens water begins to freeze at the surface first.
It is the vapors of the hot water creating an additional heat sink.
Note it is slushy not solid ice.
The other room temperature water does not have the abundance of energetic water vapors to do this extra heat sink exchange. 
So the effect would be given by gravity and differences in densities of water, not on the fact it's hot or cold. You couldn't generate such effect in the absence of gravity/ you could generate it in the absence of temperature differencies.

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Offline Joe L. Ogan

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« Reply #58 on: 07/09/2010 17:14:10 »
So, maybe I am wrong.  Perhaps science is and should be based on what those think that can shout louder and longer than others.  Thanks for comments.  Joe L. Ogan

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Offline tommya300

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« Reply #59 on: 07/09/2010 17:38:38 »
maybe this is possible Geezer?

Producing a miniature weather pattern:
Steamy energetic water, in  a container, producing water vapors, is placed in a freezer.
The surface of the water in the container is cooling as the vapors escape.
But not all water vapors are lost, some condense and circulate above in a cycle to attempt to gain a lattice crystal structure, precipitates, dropping to the surface and transfers the exchange of heat.
When the water surface reaches its highest density the lattice crystallization begins at the condensed vapor level  and begins to displace the warm water below it. As this happens water begins to freeze at the surface first.
It is the vapors of the hot water creating an additional heat sink.
Note it is slushy not solid ice.
The other room temperature water does not have the abundance of energetic water vapors to do this extra heat sink exchange. 
So the effect would be given by gravity and differences in densities of water, not on the fact it's hot or cold. You couldn't generate such effect in the absence of gravity/ you could generate it in the absence of temperature differencies.
Another condition added to the model?
Redefine the question to fit your statement may help?
Why does water freeze from the surface down?
« Last Edit: 07/09/2010 17:41:57 by tommya300 »

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Offline Joe L. Ogan

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« Reply #60 on: 07/09/2010 21:26:35 »
Please see this URL:  http://www.xs4all.nl/-johnw/PhysFAQ/General/hot_water.html
  This symbol"-" should be a "more or less" sign.  I do not have that sign on my keyboard.  Thanks for comments.  Joe L. Ogan

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Offline Geezer

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« Reply #61 on: 07/09/2010 21:53:41 »
I suppose I'm going to have to try to reproduce the effect myself. I'll try it when it gets a bit colder here. It won't be long till we get well below 0°C overnight.

I'm wondering if the cold water is more likely to supercool?

Joe, I don't seem to be able to get that link to work. Try posting a few lines of the text and I'll try to google it.  Thanks!
There ain'ta no sanity clause, and there ain'ta no centrifugal force ćther.

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Offline Joe L. Ogan

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« Reply #62 on: 07/09/2010 22:06:45 »
If you have a "more or less"  sign please substitute it for the "-" in the URL. I got it by using the URL as shown and I was asked if it was the symbol of "more or less"  When I keyed that URL, the item came up.  It is quite lengthy because the guy who did it went into great detail.  If you will hit the URL that I submitted, it should bring up statement that the URL does not exist and will ask you if the proper URL is the one.  If that will not do it for you, I shall send you an email.  Thanks for comments.  Joe L. Ogan
« Last Edit: 08/09/2010 02:21:16 by Joe L. Ogan »

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Offline JP

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Will hot water freeze faster than cold water?
« Reply #64 on: 08/09/2010 06:13:55 »
Darn! I thought I tried a tilde, and I still couldn't get it to work. Thanks JP.

So, if I figure this one out, will you nominate me for a Nobel Prize?
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Offline tommya300

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« Last Edit: 08/09/2010 11:39:17 by tommya300 »

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« Reply #66 on: 08/09/2010 17:29:20 »
Is this a coincidence?


Well, you do know that if you get enough monkeys typing, one of them will eventually produce Hamlet  [;D]
There ain'ta no sanity clause, and there ain'ta no centrifugal force ćther.

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Offline lightarrow

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« Reply #67 on: 08/09/2010 17:44:27 »
So, maybe I am wrong.  Perhaps science is and should be based on what those think that can shout louder and longer than others.  Thanks for comments.  Joe L. Ogan
Imagine if we all mankind were, from a long time, in a spaceship with no gravity inside. Would you observe that effect, excluding obvious things as vaporization, hot container which melts the ice on which is placed, ecc? What if someone, one day, said: "on a planet's surface hot water can freeze faster than cold one". Would that make a big impression on mankind? Can you see the relativity of the effect? Do you understand that in physics a real effect shouldn't be relative?
« Last Edit: 08/09/2010 17:48:55 by lightarrow »

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Offline Joe L. Ogan

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« Reply #68 on: 08/09/2010 22:17:40 »
So, how did we get on the spaceship.  Is this relative to the topic? Did you read the URL quoted above?  Thanks for comments.  Joe L. Ogan

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Offline imatfaal

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« Reply #69 on: 08/09/2010 22:21:48 »
There is a nice article on the controversy (and yes it is a controversy) here at the institute of physics Does hot water freeze first?.  I think some of the respondents are being too dogmatic - despite much effort a simple set of experimental conditions have not been defined that are consistent with theory.  In fact is is really difficult to even obtain self consistency. 
There’s no sense in being precise when you don’t even know what you’re talking about.  John Von Neumann

At the surface, we may appear as intellects, helpful people, friendly staff or protectors of the interwebs. Deep down inside, we're all trolls. CaptainPanic @ sf.n

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Offline Joe L. Ogan

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« Reply #70 on: 09/09/2010 00:37:34 »
There is a nice article on the controversy (and yes it is a controversy) here at the institute of physics Does hot water freeze first?.  I think some of the respondents are being too dogmatic - despite much effort a simple set of experimental conditions have not been defined that are consistent with theory.  In fact is is really difficult to even obtain self consistency. 
Well, I thought that the majority of scientists agreed on this.  It is rather amazing to me that (I think) most scientists agree that the "Big Bang" Theory is the accepted way that the universe was formed.  To the best of my knowledge, that experiment has never been duplicated.  I am beginning to understand why primitive man devised the theory of religion.  It gave them an answer to every thing that they could not explain.  The Lord did it!  Is this the new scientific approach?  Thanks for comments.  Joe L. Ogan

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Offline Geezer

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« Reply #71 on: 09/09/2010 00:51:30 »
Oh, so now you read the article, when Imat posts it. Sheesh!

http://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?topic=33717.msg322030#msg322030
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Offline Geezer

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« Reply #72 on: 09/09/2010 01:03:20 »
"I thought that the majority of scientists agreed on this"

Only if you consider JP to be the majority of scientists  [;D]
There ain'ta no sanity clause, and there ain'ta no centrifugal force ćther.

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Offline JP

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« Reply #73 on: 09/09/2010 01:51:45 »
I know I do. [;D]

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Offline DoryT

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« Reply #74 on: 09/09/2010 12:58:12 »
I am under the school of thought that "hot water" cannot freeze as long as it stays "hot water". :P

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Offline lightarrow

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« Reply #75 on: 09/09/2010 13:32:37 »
I am under the school of thought that "hot water" cannot freeze as long as it stays "hot water". :P
This is a good point  [;D]

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Offline Joe L. Ogan

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« Reply #76 on: 09/09/2010 14:11:01 »
Is this a coincidence?


Well, you do know that if you get enough monkeys typing, one of them will eventually produce Hamlet  [;D]
How can you make such a statement?  Have you ever performed the experiment?  Have you ever seen a monkey type?  Is this a scientific statement?  Is this generally accepted by the scientific world?  Thanks for comments.  Joe L. Ogan

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Offline lightarrow

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« Reply #77 on: 09/09/2010 17:49:06 »
So, how did we get on the spaceship.  Is this relative to the topic? Did you read the URL quoted above?  Thanks for comments.  Joe L. Ogan
Yes, I've read it, but none seems to have answered my question about blondes and brunettes:

"brunettes get from their husbands more money than blondes!"

Amazing effect! I will name it: "lightarrow effect".

(Possible explanation: *those* brunettes have richer husbands because, not being as "flashy" as blondes in that county, they had to learn how to be smarter and so they succedeed to marry the richer men there [:)]).
« Last Edit: 09/09/2010 17:55:05 by lightarrow »

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Offline Geezer

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« Reply #78 on: 09/09/2010 18:46:20 »
Is this a coincidence?


Well, you do know that if you get enough monkeys typing, one of them will eventually produce Hamlet  [;D]
How can you make such a statement?  Have you ever performed the experiment?  Have you ever seen a monkey type?  Is this a scientific statement?  Is this generally accepted by the scientific world?  Thanks for comments.  Joe L. Ogan

I believe it's well accepted. It's simply a case of having enough monkeys, typewriters and time.
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Offline Joe L. Ogan

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« Reply #79 on: 09/09/2010 18:51:13 »
tehehe Thanks for comments.  Joe L. Ogan
« Last Edit: 10/09/2010 17:53:21 by Joe L. Ogan »

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Offline heathhutt

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« Reply #80 on: 13/09/2010 11:59:33 »
yes hot water freeze faster than cold water because there are several things that help the hot pail freeze faster than the cold pail. Here are what is thought to be the most significant factors:
The hot water is more likely to be supercooled. This means that the hot water's temperature is more likely to cool to temperatures below zero degrees Celsius. In the cold non-supercooled water, ice crystals form and float to the top, forming a sheet of ice over the top of the water, creating an insulating layer between the cooler air and the water. This ice sheet also stops evaporation. In the hot water that has become supercooled (thus, no longer hot) the water, when it does freeze, freezes throughout, creating more or less of a slush before freezing solid.

Why is hot water more likely to be supercooled? Because hot water is less likely to contain tiny gas bubbles. Gas bubbles form from dissolved gasses as the water cools. When the hot water was heated, these dissolved gasses may have been driven out. In cold water, ice crystals use the tiny bubbles as starting points for formation (in physics, we call them nucleation points). But in the hot water, there are no bubbles, so there aren't as many starting points for the ice crystals.

Dissolved gasses also lower the freezing point. Since heated gas is less likely to contain dissolved gasses, it's more likely to freeze first.
[spam/unreferenced link removed by Mod]
« Last Edit: 05/01/2011 09:49:57 by peppercorn »

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Offline lightarrow

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« Reply #81 on: 13/09/2010 15:57:41 »
yes hot water freeze faster than cold water because there are several things that help the hot pail freeze faster than the cold pail. Here are what is thought to be the most significant factors:
The hot water is more likely to be supercooled. This means that the hot water's temperature is more likely to cool to temperatures below zero degrees Celsius. In the cold non-supercooled water, ice crystals form and float to the top, forming a sheet of ice over the top of the water, creating an insulating layer between the cooler air and the water. This ice sheet also stops evaporation. In the hot water that has become supercooled (thus, no longer hot) the water, when it does freeze, freezes throughout, creating more or less of a slush before freezing solid.

Why is hot water more likely to be supercooled? Because hot water is less likely to contain tiny gas bubbles. Gas bubbles form from dissolved gasses as the water cools. When the hot water was heated, these dissolved gasses may have been driven out. In cold water, ice crystals use the tiny bubbles as starting points for formation (in physics, we call them nucleation points). But in the hot water, there are no bubbles, so there aren't as many starting points for the ice crystals.

Dissolved gasses also lower the freezing point. Since heated gas is less likely to contain dissolved gasses, it's more likely to freeze first.
[spam/unreferenced link removed by Mod]



Ok, I give you two pails, one with hot water and the other with cold water. You put them both in the fridge and the initially hot water freezes slower than the other (as it should do): the cold water I gave you were previously boiled to remove any gas dissolved in it.

Where is the effect now?
« Last Edit: 05/01/2011 09:50:26 by peppercorn »

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Offline lightarrow

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« Reply #82 on: 13/09/2010 16:03:48 »
Quote
The hot water is more likely to be supercooled. This means that the hot water's temperature is more likely to cool to temperatures below zero degrees Celsius. In the cold non-supercooled water, ice crystals form and float to the top, forming a sheet of ice over the top of the water, creating an insulating layer between the cooler air and the water. This ice sheet also stops evaporation. In the hot water that has become supercooled (thus, no longer hot) the water, when it does freeze, freezes throughout, creating more or less of a slush before freezing solid.
And when you put the initially hot water in the fridge it doesn't become cold? And when it becomes cold it can't have the same effects of the initially cold water?

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Offline grizelda

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« Reply #83 on: 05/01/2011 02:46:00 »
As it was explained to me in grade six, the amount of energy required to freeze the water is much greater than the amount needed to reduce its temperature to the freezing point. Some of the hot water will evaporate in the process, so less energy is needed to freeze the smaller amount of formerly hot water, so it will freeze faster.

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Offline lightarrow

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« Reply #84 on: 05/01/2011 14:59:24 »
As it was explained to me in grade six, the amount of energy required to freeze the water is much greater than the amount needed to reduce its temperature to the freezing point. Some of the hot water will evaporate in the process, so less energy is needed to freeze the smaller amount of formerly hot water, so it will freeze faster.
...so it's not true that "hot water freezes faster" because it's "less" water, it's naive just to make any comparison...

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Offline grizelda

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« Reply #85 on: 05/01/2011 21:54:20 »
True. You start out with the same amount of water, but end up with a different amount of ice. But the hot water will freeze first. The amount that evaporates won't freeze at all.

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Offline lightarrow

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« Reply #86 on: 06/01/2011 17:37:14 »
The amount that evaporates won't freeze at all.
Does it magically disappear?  [:)]
It condenses and freezes on the freezer's walls.

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Offline grizelda

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« Reply #87 on: 06/01/2011 21:13:19 »
Actually, it forms frost, which does not go through a condensation process. Anyway, the experiment is over when the containers of water have turned to ice.

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Offline Geezer

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« Reply #88 on: 06/01/2011 21:46:27 »
Actually, it forms frost, which does not go through a condensation process.

Yes, but you still have to remove the thermal energy that was in the water vapour.
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Offline grizelda

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« Reply #89 on: 07/01/2011 02:14:21 »
The thermal energy was taken from the hot water, causing it to cool faster. If it gives it up to the freezer, it causes both containers to cool more slowly.

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Offline Geezer

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« Reply #90 on: 07/01/2011 02:42:04 »
The thermal energy was taken from the hot water, causing it to cool faster. If it gives it up to the freezer, it causes both containers to cool more slowly.

Sorry. I'm not following you there.
There ain'ta no sanity clause, and there ain'ta no centrifugal force ćther.

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Offline Joe L. Ogan

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« Reply #91 on: 07/01/2011 03:37:11 »
The thermal energy was taken from the hot water, causing it to cool faster. If it gives it up to the freezer, it causes both containers to cool more slowly.

Sorry. I'm not following you there.

Hi, Geseer.  Why don't you do the experiment?  Then you can tell the doubters that the boiling water really does freeze faster.  Thanks for comments.  Joe L. Ogan

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Offline Geezer

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« Reply #92 on: 07/01/2011 05:15:15 »
The thermal energy was taken from the hot water, causing it to cool faster. If it gives it up to the freezer, it causes both containers to cool more slowly.

Sorry. I'm not following you there.

Hi, Geseer.  Why don't you do the experiment?  Then you can tell the doubters that the boiling water really does freeze faster.  Thanks for comments.  Joe L. Ogan

Can't. It warmed up again.
There ain'ta no sanity clause, and there ain'ta no centrifugal force ćther.

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Offline grizelda

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Will hot water freeze faster than cold water?
« Reply #93 on: 07/01/2011 09:10:41 »
The formation of the water vapour took heat out of the hot water. If it gives up that heat to the freezer, the cooling of water or formation of ice in the containers will take longer.

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Offline lightarrow

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« Reply #94 on: 07/01/2011 14:48:08 »
Anyway, if it's because of some water which vaporizes from the container and so it's less water which actually have to be frozen, or whatever other mechanism, the statement "hot water freezes faster than cold water" is not a scientific statement.
You can give it a meaning in english language, but not in science.
To give it a scientific meaning, you should prove that *everything else being equal*, hot water freezes faster. But this condition is not satisfied if you compare different amounts of water.

So the question now is: is this a scientific thread or a chat thread?

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Offline grizelda

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« Reply #95 on: 07/01/2011 21:10:35 »
Well, there are two ways to ask the question.
Which freezes faster, an equal amount of hot water or cold water?
Which will produce a stated amount of ice first, hot water or cold water?
You will get different answers to each of these questions.

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Offline lightarrow

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« Reply #96 on: 09/01/2011 20:56:34 »
Ok I ask you a similar question:
There are two people A e B and B has a better job than A, let's say A gets 2,000€ per month and B gets 4,000€ per month. Both starts to work at the same time and with 0€.
Who will be able to buy first a car which costs 20,000€?

Of course it's possible that after 4 months a thief takes away all the B's money...

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Offline grizelda

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« Reply #97 on: 09/01/2011 21:46:56 »
Depends on whether B has insurance. The fact that hot water behaves like hot water cannot be held against it: you can only realize that the question is inconsequential and the answer only a curiosity.

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Takahiro Niki

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Does hot water freeze faster than cold water?
« Reply #98 on: 05/04/2011 17:30:02 »
Takahiro Niki  asked the Naked Scientists:
   
My name is Takahiro Niki and I am in American school of Warsaw myth busters class.

My question is that Does hot water freeze faster than cold water?

If you know answer, can you send me back?

Bye.

What do you think?
« Last Edit: 05/04/2011 17:30:02 by _system »