God real or not

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Offline ejirolove30

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Re: God real or not
« Reply #150 on: 26/05/2006 06:41:14 »
1. Does God exist?

Throughout history, in all cultures of the world, people have been convinced there is a God.
Billions of people, who represent diverse sociological, intellectual, emotional, educational makeups...believe that there is a Creator, a God to be worshipped. Now, the fact that so many people believe something certainly doesn't make it true. But when so many people through the ages are so personally convinced that God exists, can one say with absolute confidence that they are all mistaken?
"Anthropological research has indicated that among the farthest and most remote primitive people today, there is a universal belief in God. And in the earliest histories and legends of people all around the world, the original concept was of one God, who was the Creator. An original high God seems once to have been in their consciousness even in those societies which are today polytheistic.

Does God exist?

God not only has revealed Himself in what can be observed in nature and the world as kevin mentioned below, and in human life, but He has even more specifically shown Himself in the Bible.
God's thoughts, personality, and attitudes can only be known if God chooses to reveal them. All else would be human speculation. We are at a loss if God does not wish to be known. But God wants us to know Him and has told us in the Bible all we need to know about His character and how to relate to Him. This makes the reliability of the Bible an important consideration.
Archaeological findings continue to confirm rather than refute the accuracy of the Bible. For example, an archeological find in northern Israel in August 1993 confirmed the existence of King David, author of many of the Psalms in the Bible.10 The Dead Sea Scrolls and other archaeological discoveries continue to substantiate the historical accuracy of the Bible.

 The Bible was written over a 1500-year span, by 40 different authors, in different locations and on separate continents, written in three different languages, covering diverse subject matters at different points in history.11 Yet there is an astounding consistency in its message. Throughout the entire Bible the same message appears:

God created the world we live in, and created us specifically to have a relationship with Him.
He deeply loves us.
We have sinned and are under God's judgment, in need of His forgiveness.
God provided a way for our sins to be forgiven.
He asks us to receive His forgiveness and have a relationship with Him that will last eternally.
Along with this central script, the Bible specifically reveals God's character. Psalm 145 is a typical summary of God's personality, thoughts and feelings toward us. If you want to know God, here He is.

No other book on earth can make 11 correct prophecies in the space of  2000 yrs, yet the bible has over 340 prophecies that was written over 2000 yrs ago and came to pass.

 

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Offline ejirolove30

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Re: God real or not
« Reply #151 on: 26/05/2006 06:44:00 »
If you truly want the answer read http://www.everystudent.com/features/isthere.html


No other book in this world can make 11 correct prophecies yet the bible  has over 340 prophecies that came to pass.
 

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Offline ejirolove30

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Re: God real or not
« Reply #152 on: 26/05/2006 06:49:19 »
quote:
Originally posted by gecko

tony, i cant prove god doesnt exist anymore than you can prove he can.

 when you say something exists with no evidence whatsoever, just because of faith or belief, you can never be proven wrong. i believe theres a planet in the universe ruled by a race of skyscraper sized ants who eat nothing but pancakes. if you cant prove me wrong, than is that true?

 god is just about as likely, considering theres the same amount of proof for both. i always want to see evidence before i believe in something... for some reason objectivity and skepticism have taken a backseat to the whimsy and wonder of religion




You want to see evidence?  Look around you.  something you probally take for granted oxygen. think how plants breate in what we breathe out and produces clean air. think how the planet is position in such a way that one slight move to or from the sun can lead to destruction of planet earth.

God has left evidence all around us that He exists.  Only the fool say in his heart there is no God.
 

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Offline science_guy

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Re: God real or not
« Reply #153 on: 26/05/2006 19:41:44 »
here is an example of the truth of the bible:

ask yourselves when the bible was written.  Pre columbus times, right?  

in the bible, it never suggests that the earth is flat, and even mentions that it is round.  Now we have people proving, in science, what the bible already tells us.  There is no proof, in science, that God does not exist.  The universe had a beginning, and anything that has a beginning must be created.

E=MC2... m=deg/360 X C... C= PiD

therefore E=deg/360 X 2(PiD)
_________________________________________________________________________________________

I would engage you in a battle of wits, but it is against my moral code to attack the unarmed.

he's back!!!!

no, my name is not Bill Nye

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Offline ejirolove30

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Re: God real or not
« Reply #154 on: 27/05/2006 00:25:42 »
It is a scientific fact that life can only come from pre-existant life, not from matter alone.  Therefore to trace life back to its source we must  come back to God Himself.

When you know that there is a God, now read the bible to find out if this book speaks of this God.

Read my argument above as to why the bible is the word of God.
 

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Offline science_guy

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Re: God real or not
« Reply #155 on: 27/05/2006 01:15:36 »
you know, there are other topics in this forum, you dont have to post in one topic only.

Aside from that, i agree, in a scientific perspective, with everything he has said


E=MC2... m=deg/360 X C... C= PiD

therefore E=deg/360 X 2(PiD)
_________________________________________________________________________________________

I would engage you in a battle of wits, but it is against my moral code to attack the unarmed.

he's back!!!!

no, my name is not Bill Nye

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Offline ukmicky

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Re: God real or not
« Reply #156 on: 27/05/2006 05:08:18 »
quote:
No other book on earth can make 11 correct prophecies in the space of 2000 yrs


So that one correct prophecy for every 181 years, not much luck then. How many did it get wrong? If I was to sit back and write a book I reckon I could do better especially if I had 2000 years of coincidence and luck to play with.

Also if god created us and the earth why did he wait over 4 billion years before he created us and put us on it , Did he fall asleep .

why did he create the dinosaurs first, were they more important than us.


 
quote:
You want to see evidence? Look around you. Something you probably take for granted oxygen. Think how plants breathe in what we breathe out and produces clean air.

And evolution has had 4 billion years to do it, no god required.



 
quote:
Think how the planet is position in such a way that one slight move to or from the sun can lead to destruction of planet earth.


When you consider there are over 100 billion stars in our galaxy and as far as we can tell most of them have planets around them, then the chances of at least one of them having the correct condition for life as we no it, is pretty good. A god isn’t required to position our planet where it is. A god isn’t required for a planet to have an atmosphere like ours.

 
quote:
It is a scientific fact that life can only come from pre-existent life, not from matter alone. Therefore to trace life back to its source we must come back to God Himself.


It’s a scientific fact is it, if that’s the case then show me these scientific facts.


 
quote:
in the bible, it never suggests that the earth is flat, and even mentions that it is round.


Take a look at the moon it looks round to me ,so why wouldn’t they also think the earth is  round, Something round can still be flat.


 
quote:
Now we have people proving, in science, what the bible already tells us. There is no proof in science that God does not exist.


There is also no proof in science that god does exist,the good thing about science it deals with evidence, something written in a book is proof of nothing.

 
quote:
The universe had a beginning, and anything that has a beginning must be created.



So our universe had a beginning but who is to say that our one is the only one, as far as we know there could be multiple universes ,billions of the things. also what happens to your creationist theories if our universe  started through events in one of those other universes.

If everything has to have a beginning who created god did he just pop up from nothing.

The earth has been around for over 4 billion years more than enough time for evolution to sort itself out and create what we see today.


Michael
« Last Edit: 27/05/2006 05:10:33 by ukmicky »

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Offline ejirolove30

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Re: God real or not
« Reply #157 on: 27/05/2006 05:42:59 »
Maybe you need to take a look at nature and do a little studing.  Evolution cannot cause such order as we see today. Maybe take a look at the food chain or do a study on gravity. I guess evolution placed gravity as well.    You cannot bring God down to your state of mind and ask who created God. We are subject to time not God.
 

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Offline ejirolove30

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Re: God real or not
« Reply #158 on: 27/05/2006 05:49:48 »
Also you misread my part about prophecies.  I stated that the bible has over 340 prophecies that already came to pass.  No one cannot make such accurate prophecies.   There are extensive prophecies dealing with individual nations and cities and with the course of history in general, all of which have been literally fulfilled. More than 300 prophecies were fulfilled by Christ Himself at His first coming. Other prophecies deal with the spread of Christianity, as well as various false religions, and many other subjects.

There is no other book, ancient or modern, like this. The vague, and usually erroneous, prophecies of people like Jeanne Dixon, Nostradamus, Edgar Cayce, and others like them are not in the same category at all, and neither are other religious books such as the Koran, the Confucian Analects, and similar religious writings. Only the Bible manifests this remarkable prophetic evidence, and it does so on such a tremendous scale as to render completely absurd any explanation other than divine revelation.

If one will seriously investigate these Biblical evidences, he will find that their claims of divine inspiration (stated over 3,000 times, in various ways) were amply justified.

 

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Offline ejirolove30

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Re: God real or not
« Reply #159 on: 27/05/2006 05:50:53 »
Another striking evidence of divine inspiration is found in the fact that many of the principles of modern science were recorded as facts of nature in the Bible long before scientist confirmed them experimentally. A sampling of these would include:

    * Roundness of the earth (Isaiah 40:22)
    * Almost infinite extent of the sidereal universe (Isaiah 55:9)
    * Law of conservation of mass and energy (II Peter 3:7)
    * Hydrologic cycle (Ecclesiastes 1:7)
    * Vast number of stars (Jeremiah 33:22)
    * Law of increasing entropy (Psalm 102:25-27)
    * Paramount importance of blood in life processes (Leviticus 17:11)
    * Atmospheric circulation (Ecclesiastes 1:6)
    * Gravitational field (Job 26:7)
    * and many others.

These are not stated in the technical jargon of modern science, of course, but in terms of the basic world of man's everyday experience; nevertheless, they are completely in accord with the most modern scientific facts.
 

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Offline daveshorts

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Re: God real or not
« Reply #160 on: 27/05/2006 12:46:44 »
Have you actually looked at this stuff and more importantly thought about it critically?

For those of us who don't know the bible by reference

 (Isaiah 40:22) "He sits enthroned above the circle of the earth, and its people are like grasshoppers.  He stretches out the heavens like a canopy, and spreads them out like a tent to live in."

Is talking about circles not spheres. The greeks had worked out the world was a sphere by the time the bible was collated anyway.

(Isaiah 55:9)"For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts."

Urr so being higher than a mountain is almost infinite?

(II Peter 3:7)"But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

Sounds a lot more like a threat than an exposition of E=Mc2

(Ecclesiastes 1:7) "All the rivers run into the sea; yet the sea is not full; unto the place from whence the rivers come, thither they return again."

This is just coming from logic - the sea isn't filling up and the rivers keep running - it misses the only unobvious bit about evaporation and clouds

(Jeremiah 33:22) As the host of heaven cannot be numbered, neither the sand of the sea measured: so will I multiply the seed of David my servant, and the Levites that minister unto me.

Sounds like 'My god has a big army so don't mess with him' It doesn't even mention stars!!!

(Psalm 102:25-27) "
 25Of old hast thou laid the foundation of the earth: and the heavens are the work of thy hands.

 26They shall perish, but thou shalt endure: yea, all of them shall wax old like a garment; as a vesture shalt thou change them, and they shall be changed:

 27But thou art the same, and thy years shall have no end.
"

Urr you will die, and old clothes wear out, sounds a bit like everyday experience to me...

(Leviticus 17:11)"For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul."

Firstly blood isn't of paramount importance to life processes, most of life gets along perfectly well without it - plants, fungi, bacteria, many simple animals. You can keep flesh alive without blood, give it some oxygen, glucose and salts, and it will get along fine.
So the only thing this is saying is that vertibrates need blood to survive - do we think this was the result of divine revalation or empirical study?

(Ecclesiastes 1:6)"The wind goeth toward the south, and turneth about unto the north; it whirleth about continually, and the wind returneth again according to his circuits."

This one is better than most - but more an observation that the wind changes direction. Even if it is the modern meaning, it could be worked out by conservation of stuff, rather than a deep understanding of atmospheric circulation. The whole atmosphere runs on convection, this involves vertical winds, and surprise surprise it doesn't talk about this.

(Job 26:7)"He stretcheth out the north over the empty place, and hangeth the earth upon nothing."

Urr this sounds more like a deep misunderstanding of gravity - as the earth needs hanging on something apparently gravity would be pointing in one direction.


People were no more stupid 2000 years ago than they are today, they observed stuff fairly accurately, and made theories based on it. So surprise surprise there is a lot of stuff in the bible broadly in agreement with how the world works. However none of the things you have just showed me requires any more than this!

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Offline neilep

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Re: God real or not
« Reply #161 on: 27/05/2006 13:59:01 »
Hey Tony,

Assuming you have not poisoned yourself then it seems you might have a chance at getting this thread in the top 25 !!

Anyway, here's a nice little website filled with all types of biblical contradictions !!

http://www.evilbible.com/Biblical%20Contradictions.htm

Men are the same as women, just inside out !
Men are the same as women, just inside out !

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Offline ejirolove30

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Re: God real or not
« Reply #162 on: 27/05/2006 16:50:21 »
http://www.christiananswers.net/menu-at1.html#contradictions

read that to find out that there are no contradictions in the bible.

and they guy above you have read all those scriptures but yet you do not understand what I said.
 

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Offline ukmicky

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Re: God real or not
« Reply #163 on: 27/05/2006 18:55:39 »
You just dont like the scientifically proved fact that your related to a banana.[:)]

PS i clicked on your link and read quite a bit. The word miracle comes up quite a bit,a bit too much for my liking , its seems  a nice and easy way to get around answering a question if you ask me.

There are literary hundreds of questions which i could ask.I will start with 4 easy ones for you for.

 
How did jonah actually survived in a whales stomach for three days.

How old do you believe the earth is.

How long ago were the dinosaurs walking on the earth.

Where's all the water from the great flood in the noahs ark story gone. and dont say its now underground because your talking about enough water to cover the highest mountains.

How did noah get around to every region of the world and find every animal.

I know what is supposed to of happened to the birds but what about the bees and all the other insects.
How did noah re-populate the world, did he drop off every animal from where they came from.

what did the lions and tigers etc eat once they were freed.

What happened to all the plants and trees did noah have a seed bank or something.

why do we share a large proportion of our genetic make up with a banana or a chimp if there is no such thing as evolution.
Michael
« Last Edit: 27/05/2006 21:41:21 by ukmicky »

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Offline GOD

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Re: God real or not
« Reply #164 on: 27/05/2006 19:54:03 »
Ooops...I forgot my 11th commadment.

Thou shalt not believe in me.

It's tough not existing !!
It's tough not existing !!

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Offline ejirolove30

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Re: God real or not
« Reply #165 on: 27/05/2006 20:44:06 »
 

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Offline ukmicky

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Re: God real or not
« Reply #166 on: 27/05/2006 21:14:56 »
quote:
Originally posted by ejirolove30

http://www.christiananswers.net/q-aig/aig-floodwater.html

there is your answer.



No i want your answers in your own words.

if you believe in the bible you should know all the answers, after all you wouldnt believe in something you know nothing about would you.

PS ive added a few more sorry[:)] COME ON SHOUDNT BE HARD



Michael
« Last Edit: 27/05/2006 21:37:59 by ukmicky »

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Offline ejirolove30

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Re: God real or not
« Reply #167 on: 27/05/2006 23:21:37 »
Are u kidding me? Why should I type whats already there?

Why are u trying to pick a fight with me? I taught this board is about sharing your opinions.
 

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Offline ukmicky

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Re: God real or not
« Reply #168 on: 27/05/2006 23:38:11 »
ejirolove30

I'm sorry if i gave you the impression that i was trying to fight with you,i just fiqured you were happy to enter into a dissusion regarding your posts.

Please enjoy the rest of the forum

Michael

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Offline ejirolove30

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Re: God real or not
« Reply #169 on: 28/05/2006 04:25:56 »
I am more than happy but your request was very silly. You want me to give you the same answer that is listed in the site i provided. if in my own words or not, the answer is already given. if i did not know what i am talking about, that i am just coping links than all i have to do is go and read and come back and tell you what i read.
 

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Offline daveshorts

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Re: God real or not
« Reply #170 on: 28/05/2006 08:53:25 »
quote:
Originally posted by ejirolove30

http://www.christiananswers.net/q-aig/aig-floodwater.html

there is your answer.



Ok that is a good scientific answer... so the whole of the himalayas have been formed in the last 3000 years... In fact within a couple of months, lets be really generous, give it 1000 years. Have you even thought about the consequences of this? Mountains are a bit like ice bergs, they have roots, to make the Himalayas and the tibetan plateau you have to shorten a plate by at least 1000km, that means that the plates would have to be moving a 1km/yr, only 10000 times faster than they are now!!! Ignoring all the thermal effects (doing this would probably cause all the seas to boil - sending the world into a nuclear winter) and the fact that there would be huge evidence of this, the Indians and Chinese have records going back longer than this, don't you think they might have mentioned that all their villages were getting much closer together every year!! Oh and there were at least 3 very large earthquakes a day!!!

So the earth's magnetic field must have been flipping at least once a year over this time as well in order to produce the magnetic stripes found in the seabed, oh and god must have built a huge system of pipes through the new oceanic crust in order to make it cool down that quickly (no matter how cold the surface was you can't cool something 10km thick very fast - in less than a few million years - I can show you the maths if you like) - the amount of energy released would also boil most of the seas, with immense climatic and other effects.

It is at least intelectually consistant to say God magiked it so it was as the bible says, as he doesn't have to obey the rules of nature, however then there doesn't have to be any evidence - he could have just magiked the world so it looks like the flood never happened.

Saying it is all scientific but ignoring immense amounts of scientific evidence, and not doing any trivial calculations is either lazy or intelectually dishonest.

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Offline spud

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Re: God real or not
« Reply #171 on: 28/05/2006 10:59:56 »
It would seem pretty hypocritical to believe that everything in this universe was the product of a designer (meaning that everything in the universe is not self existent) and then believe in something that is supposedly greater than everything in the universe combined, and assume that it/he/she...whatever gender you want to give god...is self existent. Sounds pretty stupid to me.
    But don't get me wrong, i'm not an atheist to the fullest extent of the meaning of the word. I believe in the universal consiousnous of life. I believe that the universe we live in is just one of many interdimentional planes of existence. I also believe that this universe is the creation of what we ourselves think or desire it to be. In a sense, we are all god.
     In a way, it all comes down to what your personal interpretation of god is. It is different with us all. I don't think it matters what our ideas of god are, just as long as it fills that curiosity inside us, and we don't try and force these ideas on others.[:D]
 

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Offline spud

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Re: God real or not
« Reply #172 on: 28/05/2006 11:15:43 »
[I have removed the content of this post as it was not conducive to a sensible discussion, people's ideas are fair game, but personal abuse isn't]

« Last Edit: 28/05/2006 12:42:59 by daveshorts »
 

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Offline ejirolove30

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Re: God real or not
« Reply #173 on: 28/05/2006 14:53:33 »
Well here is where people make the biggest mistake.  The earth was not created 6000 yrs ago.  Humans were created 6000 yrs ago.  There is a big gap from genesis chapter 1 and gensis chapter 2.  

Remember in the bible it states that when the devil rebelled against God that he and 1/3 of the angels were cast down to the earth.  That was before Genesis chapter 2.  The bible does that state when the world was created, it said in the beginning. Could have been millions if not billions of years ago.
 

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Offline ukmicky

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Re: God real or not
« Reply #174 on: 28/05/2006 21:14:32 »
quote:
According to the Bible: Dinosaurs first existed around 6,000 years ago.5–7 God made the dinosaurs, along with the other land animals, on Day Six of the Creation Week (Gen. 1:20–25, 31).8  Adam and Eve were also made on day six—so dinosaurs lived at the same time as people, not separated by eons of time.  Dinosaurs could not have died out before people appeared, because dinosaurs had not previously existed, and death, bloodshed, disease and suffering are a result of Adam’s sin (Rom. 5:12,14, 1 Cor. 15:21–22).8
Representatives of all the kinds of air-breathing land animals, including the dinosaur kinds, went on board Noah’s Ark (see How did the animals fit on Noah's Ark?).  All those left outside the Ark died in the cataclysmic circumstances of the Flood—many of their remains became fossils.  
After the Flood (around 4,500 years ago), the remnant of the land animals, including dinosaurs, came off the Ark and lived in the present world, along with people.  Because of sin, the judgments of the Curse and the Flood have greatly changed the earth.  Post-Flood climatic change, lack of food, disease, and man’s activities caused many types of animals to become extinct.  The dinosaurs, like many other creatures, died out.  Why the big mystery about dinosaurs?. http://www.answersingenesis.org/home/Area/AnswersBook/dinosaurs19.asp


How dumb is that. They actually believe dinosaurs like T rex were walking around the earth along with his buddies 4,500 years ago at the same time as man. If that was so why are their fossils found in rock that can be scientifically proved to be 100s of millions of years old, why are there no ancient wall paintings of dinosaurs.Why is there no written record of dinosaurs.  At least evolutionists try to find scientifically provable evidence as to why there theories are correct. Creationists just point to the bible as there evidence.  a book proves nothing ,I can write a book.

My advice to everybody is to bookmark the web address below and whenever you feel depressed or in need of lift, then just click on the link and have a read.

I can guarantee you will be happy with a broad smile across your face within the first 5 minutes of reading any one of the article's in the question and answers section; most of the stuff is so hilarious you will never need your anti depressants again.

  http://www.answersingenesis.org/home/area/qa.asp


Michael
« Last Edit: 29/05/2006 04:08:53 by ukmicky »

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Offline ukmicky

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Re: God real or not
« Reply #175 on: 29/05/2006 00:22:59 »
ejirolove30
I found the answers to the questions I asked you after looking at the website you posted and I can now see why you didn’t wish to answer me as the answers are not exactly what I would consider believable and in most cases are laughable

Q: How did Jonah actually survived in a whale’s stomach for three days.
A: There was air in the whale’s stomach allowing him to breath either that or he died and then was brought back too life by god.

Q  How long ago were the dinosaurs walking on the earth?
A: 4500 years ago,they came off the ark with all the other land animals.

Q: Where's all the water from the great flood in the Noah’s ark story gone. And don’t say it’s now underground because you’re talking about enough water to cover the highest mountains.
A: There were no mountains only high hills. The land mass then rose trapping the water in the valleys; Mount Everest grew in the last 4500 years after the flood.


Q. How did Noah get around to every region of the world and find every animal.
A: He didn’t, all the animals even came to him.

Q: How did the animals from far flung places like Australia get to the ark
A: 4500 Years ago the earth was either a single land mass or their was an ice age locking up so much water that it created land bridges allowing animals like kangaroos to get to the ark.

Q: How did Noah re-populate the world, did he drop off every animal from where they came from.
A: No they all walked home.


Q: I know what is supposed to of happened to the birds but what about the bees and all the other insects.
A: NOAH only took things which could breath through there nostrils, most insects breath through there skins and so were able to survive. And those which had difficulty surviving took to rafts made out of twigs and debris.

Q: What did the lions and tigers etc eat in the first weeks when they were freed.
A: Something’s we don’t know the answers to, all we know is they just survived and the proof to that is the fact that most of them are alive today.
 

Q: What happened to all the plants and trees did Noah have a seed bank or something.
A: They all died but their seeds survived under the water and re-populated the world once the water had gone.


CONCLUSION
I have no problem with people believing in a god,its actually a nice thought that their could be something watching over us but I can't believe in the bible or the creationist’s interpretation of it, as to do so would be stupid.  None of the creationist’s arguments contain facts, and nothing can be scientifically tested like evolution and natural selection can.
 
So I know which one I would put my money on.


Michael
« Last Edit: 29/05/2006 04:04:04 by ukmicky »

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Offline neilep

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Re: God real or not
« Reply #176 on: 29/05/2006 01:11:46 »
Great Posts Michael.

Men are the same as women, just inside out !
Men are the same as women, just inside out !

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Offline JimBob

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Re: God real or not
« Reply #177 on: 29/05/2006 02:50:23 »
There is no defending belief but there is a check of facts. I believe that I can be trusted to check bible facts. I was brought up ultra-hardshell Baptist, my great-grandfather rode circut in the back hills of southeast Tennessee befeor 1900. I learned the Bible backwards and forwards, had a perfect 12 year attendence in Sunday School from age 5 to 17 and .

So lets look at the Bible facts:

quote:
Originally posted by ejirolove30

Well here is where people make the biggest mistake.  The earth was not created 6000 yrs ago.  Humans were created 6000 yrs ago.  There is a big gap from genesis chapter 1 and gensis chapter 2.  
 
Remember in the bible it states that when the devil rebelled against God that he and 1/3 of the angels were cast down to the earth.  That was before Genesis chapter 2.  The bible does that state when the world was created, it said in the beginning. Could have been millions if not billions of years ago.



So it follows very logically from the 6000 year age of man that a day does not mean 24 hours. Does the Bible say a day is 6000 years long - anywhere? NO. A day is a defined in Genesis 1:5. A day is " the evening and the morning". If one part of the Bible is to be taken literally, then all of it must be taken literally. Noone can pick and choose which parts are to be taken literally and which are to be interpreted AND be consistent in their logic.

Secondly - A Challenge - Where in the Bible does it say, I quote you that "when the devil rebelled against God that he and 1/3 of the angels were cast down to the earth" ??? In Matthew 25:41  is says "Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: ..." But where in the Bible does it say the devil rebelled or that 1/3 of the angels were thrown down? It doesn't. Your belief is one you were taught by someone else or something you made up. It seems not to be based on YOUR reading of the Bible, the Bible being the only teacher you can depend on. Where in the Bible is the story that tells you the angels were cast out of Heaven and thrown into Hell? Tell me.

I am teachable and will admit I am wrong but I will not be convinced unless the story of the fall is literal.

MY POINT:

I am a Christian. I have been one all my life. Christianity (and God) as you would have us believe is incompatable with (my brand of) science. That I believe dinosaurs lived more than 65 million years ago does not damn me. It is mearly that I believe the way God set in motion the Universe is unknown to Humans. God is beyond any human knowlege.

If christians had been correct through all of history, they would not have believed the earth was flat, that the earth was the center of the universe, nor burned Bruno at the stake for saying Aristotle was wrong. Christians have been wrong about science of the demonstrable and provable for a long time and will continue to be in the future. Belief in God does not damn modern science. YOU damn it.

By saying "you fool" to us, you condemn yourself. (Matthew 5:22) Take care of and educate your own soul before you try to teach others what is or is not righteous. Being a Sadducee (literalist) is not a winning position. (That is in the Bible.)

I cannot say I am right or wrong.  I do know I cannot tell another person that they are wrong.  (Matthew 7:3-5)






The mind is like a parachute. It works best when open.  -- A. Einstein
The mind is like a parachute. It works best when open.  -- A. Einstein

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Offline neilep

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Re: God real or not
« Reply #178 on: 29/05/2006 04:15:09 »
Excellent Post Jim.

Men are the same as women, just inside out !
Men are the same as women, just inside out !

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Offline ejirolove30

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Re: God real or not
« Reply #179 on: 29/05/2006 05:13:56 »
Oh boy!!! Did i say a day is 6000 yrs long? I said there is a big gap between genesis 1 and genesis chapter 2. Some believe God created the earth millions or even billions of years ago Genesis 1.  God in genesis 2 created man, it did not say that God created man when he created earth.  Read and you will see the big gap for yourself between those 2 chapters.

Isa 14:12-15, spoke of satan cast down to the earth.  The bible call those who say there is no God a fool. Because evidence of His existence is all around us.  People say evolution can be proven, but it cant. Only the fools will say that man who is created with his nose in the right position, not facing up or when the rain fall he will drowned,lol.  Or one eye at the back of our head and one in front, or ear down to our belly and one on the side of our head.  Evolution cannot position the amount of order that is all over the world.  

So becareful my friend to call me sadducce.
 

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Offline spud

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Re: God real or not
« Reply #180 on: 29/05/2006 08:12:21 »
[again edited for personal insults - Dave]
« Last Edit: 29/05/2006 10:19:01 by daveshorts »
 

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Offline daveshorts

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Re: God real or not
« Reply #181 on: 29/05/2006 10:34:51 »
What evidence do you have that evolution can't explain the order in the world. If you ever studied biochemistry in depth, it is a strange mix of beautifully elegant design, and horrible hacks.

So either God is alternately inspired and lazy
or
he evolved everything anyway.

 You even get them on a large scale - why do we get so many back problems? It makes sense if we have only recently evolved, and there hasn't been time for subtle issues like back ache to evolve out, but does it if we are made in the image of God?

Why is childbirth so difficult and dangerous? Because a pelvis that was designed for giving birth to quatrapedal small headed apes has has evolved to bipedalism, and babies heads have got a lot bigger, and evolution hasn't had time to come up with a good answer - or god is still punishing women for Eve falling for a classic entrapment scheme 6000 years ago - nice example of a loving god that one.

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Offline JimBob

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Re: God real or not
« Reply #182 on: 29/05/2006 19:10:23 »
WHY ARE YOU UNABLE TO ANSWER A QUESTION DIRECTLY?

In Genesis, a day is defined as 24 hours. How do you get 6000 years or more in a day???? If you can get more than 24 hours in a day what is the difference between 30 hours , 6000 years or 65 to 125 million years?

Secondly, you still have not shown me in the Bible where 1/3rd of the angels were thrown down, much less any angel.

Isaiah 14:12
"How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning"
This passage in Isaiah is about Nebuchadnezzar, King of Babylon. Lucifer is the Morning Star, one of titles of Nebuchadnezzar. The passage is about Babylon, both before and after in Chapter 14 of Isaiah.  Isaiah 14:4 "That thou shalt take up this proverb against the king of Babylon, and say, How hath the oppressor ceased! the golden city ceased!" Your reading is out of context. It is also a reading that is not consistent with the Hebrew original.

The word angel is never used.

It was not until Jerome (full name = Eusebius Sophronius Hieronymus) translated - incorrectly - the Hebrew and Greek texts of the Bible into the Latin vulgate, or "common Latin", that the word "Lucifer" was even used. The Hebrew word used in Isaiah 14:12 is "heylel" and it has two meanings. 1.) the Morning Star or the planet Venus, 2.) of or pertaining to the King of Babylon. Lucifer is the Latin word for Venus.

It was only about 1310 when Dante wrote the Divine Comedy that there is any evidence in all of Christian writing that the angels and Satan were connected with this passage. This is over half of the history of Christianity. It was either Dante or John Milton who claimed that 1/3rd the angels fell with Satan; it is not in the Bible. In the Hebrew language "Satan" is a word for a completely different concept than the planet Venus; it is translated as "adversary."

As for Sadducee, the word refers to priests of the temple who interpreted the Old Testament literally. (look it up in a good  dictionary.) If the shoe fits, wear it.

My belief in God is only bolstered by the elegance of design I see explained in my science.

It has been my experience that scientist have given more thought to the question of the existence of God than any other group of people I have ever been acquainted with. The reason: the elegance and beauty and the PROVABLE REPETITIVE RESULTS found in an theory of mountain formation or a formula for particle physic or in evolution is awe inspiring. The beauty and majesty of this Universe makes a scientist ask questions or we would not be scientist. Some come to one conclusion, others come to another. The thought that goes into this decision is equal to the thought that is given to the existence of God among theologians.




The mind is like a parachute. It works best when open.  -- A. Einstein
The mind is like a parachute. It works best when open.  -- A. Einstein

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Offline ejirolove30

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Re: God real or not
« Reply #183 on: 30/05/2006 03:00:38 »
You do not understand what I meant by genesis 1 and 2. I never said 24 hours is not a day. You misunderstood me or I am not explaing myself very well.

To everyone else, everything I say, you tell me you need facts. I am going to say this that all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. God gave His only son Jesus Christ to die for the sin of mankind.  Jesus Christ has died for the sins of all and has risen from the dead. Those who call upon His name and trust in Him shall be saved.  It is only through faith that man will receive salvation.  

It is only through faith that you will believe that miracles did take place in the bible and that evolution have never setup the order that is all around us.


I  wish you the guys the best in your qwest for God.  Remember you were told the truth and refuse it because of the theories you were taught by your teachers and professors.

Take care guys.

Dan
 

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Offline ejirolove30

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Re: God real or not
« Reply #184 on: 30/05/2006 03:05:12 »
Luke 10:18-20, jim. There is a part in revelation that speaks about 1/3. I do not remember the exact verse.

Those are my last words, unfortunately this is a debate/conversation that I cannot win with words, it can only be by having faith without having all the proof. If that was the case, God will come down everyday on the earth and speak to man face to face.  It is by faith and only by faith in Jesus Christ shall all men be saved.
 

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Offline neilep

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Re: God real or not
« Reply #185 on: 30/05/2006 03:31:54 »
You've certainly hit the nail on the head there.

Faith is eveything...and yours is most certainly true and forthright. I am happy at the obvious comfortability factor that you have in your faith.

With others, their faith is of a different kind, but of equal determination..........perhaps scientific more than religious.

And you know what ?...YOU may be right...we just do not know !..though I understand in your subjectivity....you do know.

Men are the same as women, just inside out !
Men are the same as women, just inside out !

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Offline science_guy

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Re: God real or not
« Reply #186 on: 30/05/2006 19:33:21 »
quote:
If everything has to have a beginning who created god did he just pop up from nothing.

I dont believe anybody has answered this yet.

God transends dimensions, so therefore he has more than one dimension of time.  Assuming that he only has even 2 dimensions of time, that is still sufficient for this.  with one dimension of time, its a timeline.  With two, its a "timesquare" of sorts.  with the two directions, there are an infinite amount of directions of time to go, and therefore he has no creation event.

there are two different creationist theroys.

1) young earth creationist.  They say that earth was literally created in 6 days, along with the universe and all other things, including our galaxy.  That cannot be so, because our galaxy would have to be coming from a white hole, and that is obviously not true.

2) Old earth creationist.  This is my belief.  Earth is how old we believe it is, 4.6 billion years, and all scientific facts that we have found are true.  The Record of Nature and the Word of God are both true, since God created them both, and he cannot lie.  The only problem is human interpretation. Days, as we call them are 24 hours long, and the day metaphor is how long it seemed to God.  Since God can trancend dimensions, time is irrelevent to him.  

That is my argument, and I polightfully request that we have no heated debating, just conversation.

E=MC2... m=deg/360 X C... C= PiD

therefore E=deg/360 X 2(PiD)
_________________________________________________________________________________________

I would engage you in a battle of wits, but it is against my moral code to attack the unarmed.

he's back!!!!

no, my name is not Bill Nye

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another_someone

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Re: God real or not
« Reply #187 on: 30/05/2006 20:20:01 »
quote:
Originally posted by science_guy
2) Old earth creationist.  This is my belief.  Earth is how old we believe it is, 4.6 billion years, and all scientific facts that we have found are true.  The Record of Nature and the Word of God are both true, since God created them both, and he cannot lie.  The only problem is human interpretation. Days, as we call them are 24 hours long, and the day metaphor is how long it seemed to God.  Since God can trancend dimensions, time is irrelevent to him.  



If God is capable of all things, then why is he not capable of lying, and lying so well that we could never catch Him out?

As for the word of God, all we have is the word of man that he purports to be the word of God.

Ofcourse, the word of Man that purport to be the word of God, may indeed be the word of God, and indeed, maybe God is not lying – but what evidence do we have that these possibilities are indeed the reality?

quote:

God transends dimensions, so therefore he has more than one dimension of time.  Assuming that he only has even 2 dimensions of time, that is still sufficient for this.  with one dimension of time, its a timeline.  With two, its a "timesquare" of sorts.  with the two directions, there are an infinite amount of directions of time to go, and therefore he has no creation event.



Makes God sound very like a tachyon, except that has 3 dimensions of time, and only one of space (although that might be argued to be consistent with God's omnipresence, since if all space is compressed into one dimension, then to be everywhere you only need to be everywhere in that one dimension.

Ofcourse, there is a contradiction between omnipresence and freedom of movement, since you can only move to somewhere you are not, so if you are everywhere, you cannot actually move anywhere.  If God only exists in 1 dimension of space, then he can fairly easily be everywhere in space (but can move nowhere in space), but if He exists in two or more dimensions of time, then he may have a great deal of freedom of movement in time, but he most be absent from most of time, otherwise he would have to constrain his freedom of movement.



George

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Offline spud

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Re: God real or not
« Reply #188 on: 30/05/2006 20:21:41 »
you guys are pathetic. while your sitting here trying to figure out if there is a god or not, kevin krupp is out on the loose corupting the minds of the elderly...thats right kevin krupp,

edited due to foul language
« Last Edit: 30/05/2006 20:36:41 by neilep »
 

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Offline rosy

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Re: God real or not
« Reply #189 on: 30/05/2006 21:42:39 »
Spud:
Urmm... do you know something about Kevin Krupp that we don't? All I can see by him is a rather poorly argued post in favour of the God hypothesis which whilst it isn't saying anything either new or interesting, and certainly doesn't convince, doesn't appear to me to be particularly objectionable (compared, say, to your own..) and I'm especially confused by your reference to corrupting the minds of the elderly... do you mean us? Would you like to explain yourself (preferably in moderate terms so the mods don't take it down before anyone can read it..).

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Offline spud

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Re: God real or not
« Reply #190 on: 30/05/2006 22:25:43 »
DELETED TEXT DUE TO ETREME VILE PROVOCATIVE LANGUAGE TOWARDS ANOTHER MEMBER
« Last Edit: 30/05/2006 22:34:30 by neilep »
 

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Offline neilep

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Re: God real or not
« Reply #191 on: 30/05/2006 22:38:03 »
for anyone who is interested this is SPUDS info:

After what I just deleted this waste of space is most certainly NOT WELCOME here




IP address:                     69.145.88.53
Reverse DNS:                    host-69-145-88-53.grf-mt.client.bresnan.net.
Reverse DNS authenticity:       [Verified]
ASN:                            33588
ASN Name:                       BRESNAN-AS
IP range connectivity:          2
Registrar (per ASN):            ARIN
Country (per IP registrar):     US [United States]
Country Currency:               USD [United States Dollars]
Country IP Range:               69.144.0.0 to 69.145.255.255
Country fraud profile:          Normal
City (per outside source):      Great Falls, Montana
Private (internal) IP?          No
IP address registrar:           whois.arin.net
Known Proxy?                    No

.............................................

Men are the same as women, just inside out !
« Last Edit: 30/05/2006 22:39:56 by neilep »
Men are the same as women, just inside out !

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Re: God real or not
« Reply #192 on: 30/05/2006 22:39:26 »
And some more:

OrgName:    Bresnan Communications, LLC.
OrgID:      BRESN
Address:    One Manhattanville Rd
City:       Purchase
StateProv:  NY
PostalCode: 10577
Country:    US

ReferralServer: rwhois://rwhois.bresnan.net:4321

NetRange:   69.144.0.0 - 69.146.255.255
CIDR:       69.144.0.0/15, 69.146.0.0/16
NetName:    NET-CORE-BB-1
NetHandle:  NET-69-144-0-0-1
Parent:     NET-69-0-0-0-0
NetType:    Direct Allocation
NameServer: DNS1.BRESNAN.NET
NameServer: DNS2.BRESNAN.NET
Comment:    
RegDate:    2003-05-13
Updated:    2005-04-15

RTechHandle: BRESN1-ARIN
RTechName:   BCC Manager
RTechPhone:  +1-406-294-6600
RTechEmail:  ********@bresnan.com

OrgAbuseHandle: BOA2-ARIN
OrgAbuseName:   Bresnan OnLine - Abuse
OrgAbusePhone:  +1-919-319-8112
OrgAbuseEmail:  *****@bresnan.net

OrgTechHandle: BRESN1-ARIN
OrgTechName:   BCC Manager
OrgTechPhone:  +1-406-294-6600
OrgTechEmail:  ********@bresnan.com

# ARIN WHOIS database, last updated 2006-05-29 19:10
# Enter ? for additional hints on searching ARIN's WHOIS database.

Men are the same as women, just inside out !
Men are the same as women, just inside out !

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another_someone

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Re: God real or not
« Reply #193 on: 30/05/2006 23:18:41 »
quote:
Originally posted by ariel

let me just clear things up
there is a god
FSM
visit www.venganza.org if you wish to find out more and quite possibly become a pastafarian like myself

it's sacrilicious!




Continuing the lighter note on religious doctrine, here is another one favoured by some Mensans.

http://www.thebudgiecult.org/







George

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Offline JimBob

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Re: God real or not
« Reply #194 on: 30/05/2006 23:59:23 »
I need to apologize to the group for getting hot under the collar about an extreme fundamentalist position their beliefs on this group, trying to change our minds from a family held position.

His belief is a meaningful to him as mine is to me. Having asked questions about my belief, and gone through much inquiry and self examination, the threat of someone who does not acknowledge the continually growing mythology of Christianity threatening my belief system (family do it too much) I became defensive an protective.

I was wrong to become defensive. It ceratainly does not reflect the values I say I hold.


The mind is like a parachute. It works best when open.  -- A. Einstein
The mind is like a parachute. It works best when open.  -- A. Einstein

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Offline neilep

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Re: God real or not
« Reply #195 on: 31/05/2006 00:18:57 »
Well, as far as I can see there was no apology needed , required or expected...but seeing as you're apologizing anyway jimmy boy..then It's humbly accepted....truly though....no apology needed chum.

I would also like to apologise.......not for anything really...just to apologise...so.......sorry people !

Men are the same as women, just inside out !
Men are the same as women, just inside out !

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Offline ukmicky

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Re: God real or not
« Reply #196 on: 31/05/2006 02:41:58 »
Well seeing as we are all in the mood for apologises i will try to think of something i can apologise for.

PS Jim as neil said, you have done nothing to apologise for.

Michael
« Last Edit: 31/05/2006 02:46:38 by ukmicky »

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Offline ukmicky

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Re: God real or not
« Reply #197 on: 31/05/2006 02:44:10 »
I'm really really sorry, but i just can't think of anything. its not fair why am i so good [:(][:)]

Michael

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Offline JimBob

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Re: God real or not
« Reply #198 on: 31/05/2006 02:48:58 »
WE HAVE FOUND GOD

Praise Michael?

[?]

The mind is like a parachute. It works best when open.  -- A. Einstein
The mind is like a parachute. It works best when open.  -- A. Einstein

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Offline ukmicky

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Re: God real or not
« Reply #199 on: 31/05/2006 02:49:47 »
LOL

Michael