God real or not

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Offline nature boy

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« Reply #350 on: 16/01/2007 09:02:25 »
If is he is,If isn't he isn't.It all depends on what you perceive as god.

Nature is my relegion and science is my language.So,i feel god everywhere,because nature is ubiquitous.

Let me explain it using the uncertainity principle.

If you define the position of god in churches temples snd mosques,there will be an uncertainity related to his effect,he is ineffective.

On the other hand if you attach an uncertainity in his position by saying nature is god , he is effective.(there will be a positive impact.

 beleive in god and not in relegions.

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Offline Mjhavok

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« Reply #351 on: 17/01/2007 00:42:56 »
This is all good and well. A kind of Einsteinian religious feeling. You don't believe in an invisible sky daddy though.
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Offline nature boy

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« Reply #352 on: 17/01/2007 06:10:23 »
What does that mean ?Invisible sky?

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Offline Mjhavok

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« Reply #353 on: 18/01/2007 15:19:40 »
Invisible sky daddy. Invisible and Sky in the sentence are both used to describe the word daddy (god). I'm sorry I left out the footnotes for dummies.
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Offline nature boy

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« Reply #354 on: 19/01/2007 09:45:32 »
Thanks Dummy(whatever that might mean).

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Offline Mjhavok

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« Reply #355 on: 20/01/2007 00:05:06 »
You asked.
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Offline nature boy

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« Reply #356 on: 20/01/2007 19:26:23 »
So ......?

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Offline Titanscape

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« Reply #357 on: 20/02/2007 12:07:16 »
Many founders of science held the belief there is a god. Aristotle, Newton, Einstein, RJ Oppenheimer.

Where does the idea come from? Homo Sapien hardwiring, ancestry, hearing, seeing, reading then.

Motive and reason are different.

People actually love God/gods.

People ask, "where did I come from, where am I going?"

People sense a need to attribute good and evil to sources.

So science doesn't prove He isn't, it suggests He is, but belief only comes from revelation and testimonies and evidence, not scientific proof. Such as in a test tube.

Aristotle I think deduced gods, the Greeks had gods and started science off. And that there are gods too.

The sky and earth are an awesome richly detailed enduring abundance, begging a source and sourcing promise of more and the unseen. An intelligent source says the ancient Greeks. For me it is family tradition, based on history and Jesus.

« Last Edit: 20/02/2007 12:16:27 by Titanscape »
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Offline Mjhavok

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« Reply #358 on: 20/02/2007 12:19:44 »
Ok you know nothing about Einstein. He didn't believe in a Christian type god or afterlife. This is a typical argument from christian apologists. It is called "the argument from great men". They usual say "oh Isaac Newton was a smart man, a scientist, he believed it god." Typically they use a scientist that is pre darwinian before anyone really knew better. Also in the past Atheist or people who didn't believe where killed because of it. Aristotle I think had doubts but probably was religious as back them everyone was, Newton was religious, Einstein did not believe in god in the sense that he listens to prayers or punishes sin.

At most Einstein was a deist.

He said "I believe in Spinoza's God, Who reveals Himself in the lawful harmony of the world, not in a God Who concerns Himself with the fate and the doings of mankind."
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« Reply #359 on: 20/02/2007 13:33:59 »
Since Einstein was a Jew - he may have believed in a Judeo-Christian type God, but not a strictly Christian type God in any narrower sense.

The ancient Greeks had quite a lot more diversity in their beliefs, and the notion that you were somehow persecuted if you did not believe – just look up Epicurus , or his later Roman counterpart, Lucretius.

It was the Jews who introduced the idea that religion was a matter of social loyalty (Judaism has always been a nationalistic religion – and while Christianity and Islam may have gone further, and become supra national, they still demanded unconditional allegiance).

One also has to bear in mind that in past centuries, the accusation of atheism had a different meaning to what it has today – and atheist was not one who did not believe in God, but rather one who was not God fearing, and thus was judged as amoral.

As for whether people who, in the Christian era, genuinely believed in God, or just found they had to use the language of God to express ideas for which they had no other widely accepted language, that is a matter that is always difficult to debate, because how can one look behind that which is said, to ideas that could not be expressed at the time.  If we try and apply modern language to past ideas, we come across the problem that people of the past would have no understanding of the modern language, and would have found it as alien as we find their language.

Ofcourse, when we get to the Oppenheimers and Einsteins of this world, we are talking about substantially modern personages, who had access to much of the vocabulary we use today, so the argument that they simply could not have expressed themselves in any other way does not hold true.

I think the bigger problem when we discuss the Einstiens and Oppenheimers, is our own attitude to these people (and to great scientists in general), that we regard them in some way as great prophets of life in general – these guys were good at what they did, but it does not follow that everything they said and believed must somehow be superior to the rest of humanity – they were still, outside of their own field, just ordinary human beings.

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paul.fr

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« Reply #360 on: 20/02/2007 20:43:23 »
God, real or not?

does it actually matter? I for one do not believe in some form of supreme being, whether it is god or not. This is a discussion that only leads to arguments and throwing quotations and inevitably Einstein and other names about.

The two side in the discussion will never be able to come together and agree to disagree, so what is the point?

The only thing that matters is, does having god in your life make a difference! If it does then all well and good. We all need something to behold and believe in, some people choose religion other something else.

As long as you do not try to impose your values and beliefs on others than who gives a damn.

Paul

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Offline Titanscape

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« Reply #361 on: 24/02/2007 10:11:55 »
It is tricky, some people will tell you being approached or hearing a sermon meant a lot to them. Others hate it. Jesus wants the little ones brought to Him.

Christians are out sometimes handing out tracts or talking with people, but some hate it. But for a few who appreciate it, we are there.

Sometimes christian's children dislike their parent's message.

I wish I had a more christian childhood.

I would persuade others to agree with my values and ideals, on love and honour...

I would suggest to people that the human spirit is eternal and that there is a Father of light and one of darkness. And a judgement day, and Christ crucified.

I learned people don't like the message and don't push it. Some people have their day made, if you want to talk with them about it?

One point some here are making is that scientists with their reason and freedom didn't unbelieve, so science at best doesn't mean, god is not.

Science and technology, cars, ships, refridgerators, spanners made of titanium alloy, computers... doesn't make us much happier... just tools and perception of the natural world, doesn't really have a place in determining beliefs about the origin of your spirit or death and where we go after our bodies give up...

Science was first called, natural philosophy.

Even the Bible says next to nothing about the pre natural, glorious earth Adam knew as a boy. The supernatural gives us a view of the natural quite unlike the athiest's. Example, death isn't natural. Faith, to accept the revelation of the unseen, regarding the seen. We think there was a time before the natural, observed order took root. So no evolution...

Then can evolution point to there being a god or not? Some would even say yes.

Some reason there is a god, some are motivated to look for one from young.

My computer cannot indicate to me there is no god.
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Offline Mjhavok

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« Reply #362 on: 24/02/2007 18:58:01 »
Since Einstein was a Jew - he may have believed in a Judeo-Christian type God, but not a strictly Christian type God in any narrower sense.

The ancient Greeks had quite a lot more diversity in their beliefs, and the notion that you were somehow persecuted if you did not believe – just look up Epicurus , or his later Roman counterpart, Lucretius.

It was the Jews who introduced the idea that religion was a matter of social loyalty (Judaism has always been a nationalistic religion – and while Christianity and Islam may have gone further, and become supra national, they still demanded unconditional allegiance).

One also has to bear in mind that in past centuries, the accusation of atheism had a different meaning to what it has today – and atheist was not one who did not believe in God, but rather one who was not God fearing, and thus was judged as amoral.

As for whether people who, in the Christian era, genuinely believed in God, or just found they had to use the language of God to express ideas for which they had no other widely accepted language, that is a matter that is always difficult to debate, because how can one look behind that which is said, to ideas that could not be expressed at the time.  If we try and apply modern language to past ideas, we come across the problem that people of the past would have no understanding of the modern language, and would have found it as alien as we find their language.

Ofcourse, when we get to the Oppenheimers and Einsteins of this world, we are talking about substantially modern personages, who had access to much of the vocabulary we use today, so the argument that they simply could not have expressed themselves in any other way does not hold true.

I think the bigger problem when we discuss the Einstiens and Oppenheimers, is our own attitude to these people (and to great scientists in general), that we regard them in some way as great prophets of life in general – these guys were good at what they did, but it does not follow that everything they said and believed must somehow be superior to the rest of humanity – they were still, outside of their own field, just ordinary human beings.

Einsteins parents may have been jewish but I don't think they where strict. Einstein on many occasion stated he didn't believe in a god that hears & answers prays. He also didn't believe in an afterlife.
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« Reply #363 on: 25/02/2007 01:53:42 »
Einsteins parents may have been jewish but I don't think they where strict. Einstein on many occasion stated he didn't believe in a god that hears & answers prays. He also didn't believe in an afterlife.

He certainly stated that he believed in a God that not play dice - so he certainly had some notion of God.  I cannot say whether his idea of God included an afterlife, or one that answers prayers (neither of these have as much relevance in Jewish tradition than they have in Christian tradition).  I could not even tell you if he strictly kept the Sabbath, but I think he was a Zionist (although that tells you more about his political affiliations with Judaism than about his religious ones - but it does indicate that he actively thought of himself as a Jew in some way).


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Offline Mjhavok

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« Reply #364 on: 25/02/2007 02:06:52 »
Here are two quotes from Einstein.

"It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly."

"I believe in Spinoza's God who reveals himself in the orderly harmony of what exists, not in a God who concerns himself with fates and actions of human beings."

Einstein used the god word in many quotes and in his writting but just saying the word doesn't make him a believer. I am an atheist and I can say "God" I can even say I believe in him. I would be telling a lie.

Some religious folk usually Christians often of the fundamental persuasion always come up with the Einstein, god, dice quote. As if saying it proves anything.

Alot of fairly non religious people still stick to religious customs as it was how they where raised. Tradition and custom seem to be very important to human beings.
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jolly

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« Reply #365 on: 25/02/2007 15:41:42 »
deleted as inapproprate
« Last Edit: 06/03/2007 01:02:33 by jolly »

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Offline Mjhavok

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« Reply #366 on: 25/02/2007 16:05:21 »
If god dose exist he/she wont let you prove he/she does. that dosnt mean you couldnt prove it, it just means god would stop you. If god dosnt exist, how could you prove he/she dosnt. I don't think you can! decartes could be right and all this is just one big dream, and nothing is real. where ever you go with or without god its a leap of faith. So I think you should go with your heart; after all your heart looks for happyness not sadness. And most people want to be happy.   

I disagree. I don't have faith. I have evidence.
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Offline tony6789

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« Reply #367 on: 27/02/2007 14:43:47 »
i love this topic...lol
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Offline Titanscape

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« Reply #368 on: 01/03/2007 04:04:43 »
We have evidence, we have no proof of error, so why do some believe and others do not? Does science offer an alternative to faith? Is Jesus unbelievable?
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Offline tony6789

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« Reply #369 on: 01/03/2007 12:32:13 »
wat is our proof?
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jolly

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« Reply #370 on: 01/03/2007 19:42:24 »
Mjhavcok please show me. If decartes is right your evidence is a dreamed illusion. You can never know. But the best bit is decartes believed in god thats how he got off the rock. It is all a leap of faith, I bounced a ball 10 times and can now prove it. the 11th time it might not do the same thing. You walk down a road and get hit by a twig you carry on walking and get hit by another, if you keep walking will you get hit again?

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Offline Mjhavok

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« Reply #371 on: 01/03/2007 20:56:04 »
If a ball bounces 10 times when you let it go on the same spot. That is evidence for you thinking it will do the same again. Faith is belief without evidence. What would you like me to show you jolly?

If god dose exist he/she wont let you prove he/she does. that dosnt mean you couldnt prove it, it just means god would stop you. If god dosnt exist, how could you prove he/she dosnt. I don't think you can! decartes could be right and all this is just one big dream, and nothing is real. where ever you go with or without god its a leap of faith. So I think you should go with your heart; after all your heart looks for happyness not sadness. And most people want to be happy.   

Your comment suggests that you know the mind of god if it existed. How do you know god would not let me prove he/she existed. Perhaps I just don't have the tools or knowledge yet that would allow this.

Supposing that everything is a dreamed illusion doesn't get me anywhere. In that case nothing is real. Why even have a debate about it.
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Offline Mjhavok

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« Reply #372 on: 01/03/2007 20:57:00 »
I don't know how anyone is convinced by Descartes ontological argument.
Steven
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Offline Mjhavok

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« Reply #373 on: 01/03/2007 20:57:59 »
We have evidence, we have no proof of error, so why do some believe and others do not? Does science offer an alternative to faith? Is Jesus unbelievable?

Reason, rationality and skepticism is an alternative to blind faith.
Steven
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Offline tony6789

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« Reply #374 on: 02/03/2007 17:44:53 »
thats not wat i call proof really..
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jolly

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« Reply #375 on: 02/03/2007 19:18:48 »
Empiricists even hume believed in god.

I quote: "whatever exists must have a cause or reason of its existence.....If there be no necessarily existent being, any supposition which can be formed is equally possible....was it nothing? but that could never produce anything......there is consequently, such a being-that is, there is a deity".

I'd like to thank the academy for this award as its great; I will polish it nightly.lol

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Offline Mjhavok

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« Reply #376 on: 02/03/2007 22:41:51 »
Huh?
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paul.fr

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« Reply #377 on: 02/03/2007 23:02:53 »
Hume's Fork.

"When we run over libraries, persuaded of these principles, what havoc must we make? If we take in our hand any volume; of divinity or school metaphysics, for instance; let us ask, Does it contain any abstract reasoning concerning quantity or number? No. Does it contain any experimental reasoning concerning matter of fact and existence? No. Commit it then to the flames: for it can contain nothing but sophistry and illusion."

The academy may be ringing for that award back.

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Offline Mjhavok

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« Reply #378 on: 02/03/2007 23:05:44 »
Nice quote but book burning doesn't sit well with me. Makes me think of Nazis.
« Last Edit: 02/03/2007 23:27:33 by Mjhavok »
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paul.fr

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« Reply #379 on: 02/03/2007 23:12:10 »
I like mice also

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paul.fr

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« Reply #380 on: 02/03/2007 23:15:40 »
Mice quote but book burning doesn't sit well with me. Makes me think of Nazis.

who burned more books the nazi's or American Secular and religious authorities?

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Offline Mjhavok

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« Reply #381 on: 02/03/2007 23:28:32 »
I don't have a tally. Does it matter who burnt more?

Are you religious?
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« Reply #382 on: 02/03/2007 23:34:59 »
I don't have a tally. Does it matter who burnt more?

Are you religious?

Off hand i would say more books were/are burnt in america than by the nazi's. books are still being banned there, which in my opinion on much scarier.

No, i am not religious. Most of my family are catholic, but i do not personally care for any religion...and find the greeters at the entrance quite scary

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Offline Mjhavok

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« Reply #383 on: 03/03/2007 00:47:11 »
Ok Paul. I am not from America (incase you thought I was). I myself am not religious and never was brought up so. When I was younger perhaps 10-15 I thought something perhaps god or something else existed that created the universe. I never knew then what I know now. I have listened to many arguments on both sides of this debate. My knowledge of science has also increased massively since I was 10-15 years old. At most I was a deist back then and probably heading towards pantheistic. I am now an atheist. I don't have a problem with anyone who is pantheistic. I just think that people who think human beings are the center of the universe and the universe was put here by god for us, I think these people are just deluding themselves. I think they are being egotistical and it just reeks of self importance. Knowing what I know now (which is available to anyone) I can't honestly believe in anything supernatural. I don't see any need for that as an explanation for anything and it just brings up more questions.

Reason, rationality and skepticism is the only way we can find out what is true. As much as we can know if anything is true.

Thanks
« Last Edit: 03/03/2007 00:48:49 by Mjhavok »
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« Reply #384 on: 03/03/2007 02:04:06 »
Nice quote but book burning doesn't sit well with me. Makes me think of Nazis.

Book burning is as old as books themselves, going back to the first Chinese dynesty (and maybe even earlier, but they had already burnt the history books that would have recorded those book burnings).  It is a way of making sure everybody agrees with your version of history.

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« Reply #385 on: 03/03/2007 15:26:58 »
paul he said both so what does that say about him, he either belived one or the other, or maybe he believed both.lol

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« Reply #386 on: 03/03/2007 17:09:43 »
Reason, rationality, I agree with them, but skepticism, mmm. I have some, but accepted the message of theology and the philosphy taught in school.

I had a spiritual experience too.

I think atheism advocating peoples as unimportant, and central, is dangerous.

The universe is generous and resists decay.

Matter by itself doesn't matter, except for what it is in relation to people. Hypotheticaly, Lose Mars or the Earth into the sun or a massive meteorite shower, which do you choose?

Or if you could make 500 pounds for every hectare of Amazon destroyed or 100,000 for all gone at once, knowing that after you die, the O2/CO2 equilibrium is destroyed permanently, do you take the sterling?

Some gods advocate "man should have small egos, those play things." "The stars are our home."

Jesus cross promotes that a friend is worth dying for, yet it humbled Peter after and is not ego boosting, or if it is, is that bad?

Sometimes reason needs accept revelation, reason can err. God is by nature according to the Old Greek word agape, self existently. When meeting a stranger, you need be prepared for a revelation, rather than try to reason out their values and attitudes by looking at their car and attire.

« Last Edit: 03/03/2007 17:16:42 by Titanscape »
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Offline Mjhavok

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« Reply #387 on: 03/03/2007 17:13:08 »
You think "atheism advocating peoples as unimportant, and central, is dangerous." (which is not what I do).

Do you not think people who think they have religious absolutes are dangerous.

Your spiritual experience isn't proof I'm afraid. The mind is a powerful simulator.
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« Reply #388 on: 03/03/2007 17:30:28 »
Religous absolutes, if you mean extremists, it is bad.

My spiritual experience gave me a knowing, proof for me. In turning to Jesus, response, sensing a presence so I had to kneel, and my conscience became clear. Promises of restoration...

I and many others have such experiences. 600,000,000 million charismatics today, struggling with questions or worshipping God with enthusiasm.

I never knew what I got to simulate it.

That first experience gave me like a knowing, and faith came around it like a tent around a pole.

I recall it. And other experiences and insights by others into my secret thoughts confirm and advance it.
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Offline Mjhavok

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« Reply #389 on: 03/03/2007 17:39:00 »
I have weird experiences every night when I go to sleep. It is called dreaming. Once I had a dream that me and optimus prime where fighting the decepticons. Does this mean it was real? ofcourse not. I am just stating that your brain can simulate many things. I think if you read some neurology you would find this out .

I am sorry but I am a naturalist and people claiming to have inner revelation and personal experience of god just doesn't hold any weight for me.

Funny how you think you felt Jesus Christ and not Mohammed or Vishnu or Zeus as your inner revelation. Perhaps because you where brought up in a Christian country?
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« Reply #390 on: 03/03/2007 18:52:08 »
Well, repentance and praying the Our Father, and Jesus don't let me die, are christian ideas. And that His Spirit walks into rooms... Even forgiveness and a clear conscience, and the hope of heaven and restoration.

I later tested the name Allah and called on it three times. I heard a response, such that I call on Jesus.

If I were brought up in China, what could I experience? Paul called Zeus a weak and beggarly element.

True I had no thought of anyone but the Trinity. And Mary, Catholic boy then.

That experience was objective and subjective.

But look perhaps, see if you can have an experience in alertness, of your own. Some Pentecostal preachers are dry or whacky, but some have the gift of prophecy and knowledge, ask one to lay hands on you, you may hear your secret questions revealed.
« Last Edit: 03/03/2007 18:55:37 by Titanscape »
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Offline Mjhavok

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« Reply #391 on: 03/03/2007 18:58:28 »
But look perhaps, see if you can have an experience in alertness, of your own. Some Pentecostal preachers are dry or whacky, but some have the gift of prophecy and knowledge, ask one to lay hands on you, you may hear your secret questions revealed.

Sorry your opinion is now void. The last two sentences of your last post are crazy nonsense. That is putting it lightly.

Comments that ask me to allow a preacher to put his magic hands on me and give me answers don't belong on a science forum. Also preachers get into trouble for their magic hands.
« Last Edit: 03/03/2007 19:01:07 by Mjhavok »
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« Reply #392 on: 03/03/2007 19:17:16 »
This is the "That Can't Be True" section. Many testify, so it is evidence, yet unscientific. Just suggesting testing something rather than external judgement, without a test.

What is this trouble you mention?
Titanscape

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Offline Mjhavok

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« Reply #393 on: 03/03/2007 19:24:07 »
Preachers ---> Magic Hands ---> Touching people.

Work it out.
Steven
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In a time of universal deceit - telling the truth is a revolutionary act.

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jolly

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« Reply #394 on: 03/03/2007 20:56:05 »
deleted as inapproprate               
« Last Edit: 06/03/2007 00:26:41 by jolly »

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Offline Mjhavok

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« Reply #395 on: 03/03/2007 21:13:47 »
Unfortunately jolly all religious people don't share this view.
Steven
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paul.fr

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« Reply #396 on: 03/03/2007 23:34:56 »
paul he said both so what does that say about him, he either belived one or the other, or maybe he believed both.lol

ok, he did say both, somaybe you can have that award.....just for now. like i said before if people get comfort from having religion in their life all well and good. but any topic debating if god id real or not, is in my opinion not woth having. you either believe or not..no minds are changed. not too many rational ideas put forward. they just end up as im right you are wrong

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paul.fr

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« Reply #397 on: 04/03/2007 00:03:09 »
Jolly,

i'm not having a go but, if you could use paragrahs it would make you posts that bit easier to read. I for one, struggle to read them as the words all seem to mix together.

Thanks in advance.


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paul.fr

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« Reply #398 on: 04/03/2007 01:20:58 »
It just occured to me, but nobody has quoted anything from south park!

The only place to truely learn about life and god, here are quotes from an episode:

Stan: “Why would God let Kenny die, Chef? Why? Kenny’s my friend. Why can’t God take someone else’s friend?”

Chef: “Stan, sometimes God takes those closest to us, because it makes him feel better about himself. He is a very vengeful God, Stan. He’s all pissed off about something we did thousands of years ago. He just can’t get over it, so he doesn’t care who he takes. Children, puppies, it don’t matter to him, so long as it makes us sad. Do you understand?”

Stan: “But then, why does God give us anything to start with?”

Chef: “Well, look at it this way: if you want to make a baby cry, first you give it a lollipop. Then you take it away. If you never give it a lollipop to begin with, then you would have nothin’ to cry about. That’s like God, who gives us life and love and help just so that he can tear it all away and make us cry, so he can drink the sweet milk of our tears. You see, it’s our tears, Stan, that give God his great power.”

Stan: “I think I understand.”

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Offline GBSB

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« Reply #399 on: 04/03/2007 01:34:29 »

 any topic debating if god id real or not, is in my opinion not woth having. you either believe or not..no minds are changed. not too many rational ideas put forward. they just end up as im right you are wrong

I agree. I think nothing productive can come from such a discussion.

On the other side discussion about different religion and role what have religion in history and every day life could be productive only I think that is more delicate question than question about existence of God.

I'm an atheist and I thank God for it (George Bernard Shaw)
« Last Edit: 04/03/2007 01:44:43 by GBSB »