God real or not

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Offline Mjhavok

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« Reply #450 on: 21/04/2007 17:49:08 »
Yes so you claim there is no god- prove it- its the same.


I don't claim there is no god. I have lack of a belief in a god. With my current knowledge and all available evidence I see no reason to have that belief. This is different from saying "I KNOW THERE IS NO GOD"

Theists are the ones making the claim. I don't go around trying to prove that things don't exist. I don't go around trying to justify the things I DON'T believe in. That would be preposterous.
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Offline Mjhavok

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« Reply #451 on: 21/04/2007 18:09:12 »
My point exactly.

Strange. When I read what you wrote that isn't the impression I got.
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paul.fr

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« Reply #452 on: 21/04/2007 18:23:02 »
Yes I added it as I felt it was needed- who the hell are you to tell me how I should relay information to people- Not just you read this- Some people will not read this stuff till next week- I will post as I see fit thank you!

You dont like it thats your problem. Tell me how to post? Who are you exactly? What gives you the right to tell me how to post?

Rather than making a whole new box I add on- to things that relate- as I think of things to say. That way its all together. not all over the place- Then I answer you complaints- and add on to them as I have new or better understood answers. DEAL WITH IT.

It is not my fault that you do not understand what I say then put up silly posts, thats your problem- not mine- Keep digging your hole- please...

In what part of my text did i tell you how to write your posts? Nowhere. All i am saying is that by constantly adding, and deleting, whole paragraphs once replies have been made is unfair to the replier and later reader of the topic.

How can i understand what you are trying to say, when the post i reply to changes?

What hole and i digging?

i see you even edited the post to which i am replying!

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Offline Batroost

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« Reply #453 on: 21/04/2007 22:25:11 »
Quote
YOUR NOT BETTER OR MORE INTELIGENT THAT ANYONE ELSE- YOU JUST THINK YOU ARE.

BY the same assertion I would refute:

Quote
Alot of christians feel they speak with God- They know they do-.

Why is this position a valid one and yet saying that there is no god is seen as an attack on faith? If you truly believe what you say you beleive then nothing I or anybody else says here will shake your faith. Well done, you are then a convincing christian.

BUT THIS HAS ABSOLUTLEY NOTHING TO DO WITH SCIENCE! A scientist should never hold true to dogma. A model is only as good as the current evidence. A theory can always be changed or abandoned if new evidence presents itself, or a lack of evidence is apparent when an experiment is performed.

A discussion on science uses evidence to support models of the world. Where there is no evidence there is no discussion - there is only bigotry.
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Offline Ben6789

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« Reply #454 on: 23/04/2007 13:22:12 »
jolly! Paul fr.! please calm down!

BUT THIS HAS ABSOLUTLEY NOTHING TO DO WITH SCIENCE! .


That's right. It doesn't. That's why this topic is so popular.

Science and religon never mix. Never will. They contradict. Water and oil. But that's why this has 19 pages. Everyone's chosen a side. Everyone knows their reasons. But this topic will go on forever, just as tony6789 wanted. "Prove he is real!" "Prove he isn't!" It all comes down to opinion in this one.
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Offline Mjhavok

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« Reply #455 on: 23/04/2007 13:38:13 »
Paul grow up. Its not my problem if you dont understand what I have said. And to say what you just did, shows you havent understood.

The evidence I was refering to would be the books- as well as the religious community- Alot of christians feel they speak with God- They know they do- But how do I prove that to you- You would just say they were delusional or somthing. To love is to know- Its individual- Proff denies faith.

There is no proff to prove god does not exsist- there is some elimentary evidence to suggest that there is a God. Ergo more in favor than against.
Not evidence against- a tiny bit for. But no scientist should be claiming things they have no evidence for- So you cannot say there is no god- as a scientist- as a person you may.

Personal revelation isn't evidence. People who have temporal lobe seizures have profound religious experiences.
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paul.fr

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« Reply #456 on: 23/04/2007 13:40:35 »

"Prove he is real!" "Prove he isn't!" It all comes down to opinion in this one.


Not really, if you happily go along your normal days business with nothing to worry about that's fine. Suddenly some nutter approaches you and tells you there is a god. you say "wow, i will believe you if you can just prove it".

The onus is on the one making the first claim, IE that god exists, not the disbeliever. The argument only came about because of the claim that there was a god, the claim has to be proven.

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Offline Mjhavok

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« Reply #457 on: 23/04/2007 13:42:22 »
jolly! Paul fr.! please calm down!

BUT THIS HAS ABSOLUTLEY NOTHING TO DO WITH SCIENCE! .


That's right. It doesn't. That's why this topic is so popular.

Science and religon never mix. Never will. They contradict. Water and oil. But that's why this has 19 pages. Everyone's chosen a side. Everyone knows their reasons. But this topic will go on forever, just as tony6789 wanted. "Prove he is real!" "Prove he isn't!" It all comes down to opinion in this one.

This is because one is a dogmatic ideology and the other has a self correcting mechanism.
Steven
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paul.fr

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« Reply #458 on: 23/04/2007 13:51:32 »

The evidence I was refering to would be the books- as well as the religious community- Alot of christians feel they speak with God- They know they do- But how do I prove that to you- You would just say they were delusional or somthing.

Lets take, Joseph Smith shall we. He was clearly delusional and a fraud. Books eh, have you read the book of mormon! what outragious and ludicrus claims he makes. Now if you want to follow his teachings and live a happy contented life, that's fine by me. But don't tell me this man was not a fraud.

look at the evidence:

Joseph smith believes/said

I was out in the woods, praying I was asking God if I should be a Protestant, or a Catholic, or what? And suddenly God and Jesus appeared before me.  And they said I should start my own church, because none of the others had it right.

Last night, a Native America angel told me where I could find another testament of Jesus Christ, so I went out to the woods. I dug around all morning where the angel had told me to look. he found a stone box
 Inside the stone box, he found the magical seer stones. Under that, he found four gold plates written in strange writing

he was not allowed to take them. You see, after he found the plates, the angel Moroni appeared to me again and said that I am not allowed to show the plates, or the seer stones, to anybody. Because first I must translate what's written on the plates into English, so you can all read it!

i don't have the will to go on, but clarly he was a nutter!

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Offline Ben6789

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« Reply #459 on: 23/04/2007 16:21:58 »
Yeah and where he found them just happens to be where the twin towers are..were...
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paul.fr

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« Reply #460 on: 23/04/2007 16:23:34 »
Yeah and where he found them just happens to be where the twin towers are..were...

and your proof for that?

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Offline Ben6789

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« Reply #461 on: 23/04/2007 16:32:51 »
It's just what I heard..urban legend probably.
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paul.fr

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« Reply #462 on: 23/04/2007 16:38:18 »
It's just what I heard..urban legend probably.

well they were (supposed to have been) found in or around new york, in a place called palerma. not sure if that is the correct spelling but it sounds right. in western newyork

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Offline Ben6789

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« Reply #463 on: 23/04/2007 16:41:11 »
It's just what I heard..urban legend probably.

well they were (supposed to have been) found in or around new york, in a place called palerma. not sure if that is the correct spelling but it sounds right. in western newyork

Try a spell check to see if you did.
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paul.fr

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« Reply #464 on: 23/04/2007 16:42:26 »
It's just what I heard..urban legend probably.

well they were (supposed to have been) found in or around new york, in a place called palerma. not sure if that is the correct spelling but it sounds right. in western newyork

Try a spell check to see if you did.

but that would only work if i wnew which spelling was correct!

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Offline Ben6789

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« Reply #465 on: 23/04/2007 16:45:18 »
oooooo, that's right.

Sorry, I get stupid sometimes..most times..
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paul.fr

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« Reply #466 on: 23/04/2007 16:47:03 »
Palmyra, western New York. is that near where the towers were? he lived there for a few years and supposidly food the plates in the woods there.

edit: oops he found the plates, not food them.
« Last Edit: 23/04/2007 16:48:37 by paul.fr »

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Offline Ben6789

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« Reply #467 on: 23/04/2007 16:51:16 »
found or food?
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paul.fr

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« Reply #468 on: 23/04/2007 16:55:57 »
found or food?

lol, i edited it. i suppose the plates made him think of food  [:)]

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Offline that mad man

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« Reply #469 on: 23/04/2007 18:43:09 »
Jolly there is a difference between believing in a God and believing in a religion, you can believe in a God without believing in any religion.

If the God that you believe in is omnipotent and everywhere why is it necessary for him to talk to angels and prophets instead of talking directly to us? Could it be that the only way he can exist is by prophets inventing stuff and lying about being "chosen", its in the prophets or the teachers benefit to do so.

There have been threads about Dreaming and I think most would agree that dreaming is not reality and yet, most prophets saw visions (dreams) about the words of God and we are expected to accept that as fact!

It the old con trick, "I know, I saw! I cant prove it but believe me it was God and was real and if you don't believe me then you must believe in evil".

How come you have to pay a priest to get married or carry out a funeral service? Do you see many destitute or poor priests? How much is the "Church" worth?

We are sensible enough now to treat or lock up people that say they have strange visions or talk to God, to talk to God and have visions is now considered a sign of madness! Go tell the doctor that you have strange visions and have Gods voice in your head and you will be promptly offered psychiatric help.

The voices in the head is a popular one!




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Offline tony6789

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« Reply #470 on: 24/04/2007 16:24:42 »
lol
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Offline Ben6789

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« Reply #471 on: 24/04/2007 16:25:39 »
Yes it is..but visions of God talking to people are entirly possible.

If you have one, don't tell anyone who doesn't beileve in God, less chance of getting sent to Mental Institute.
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Offline tony6789

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« Reply #472 on: 24/04/2007 16:37:16 »
lol tru dude tru all the way
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Offline Ben6789

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« Reply #473 on: 24/04/2007 16:38:38 »
thanks, i appreciate the support.
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Offline Ben6789

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« Reply #474 on: 30/04/2007 13:15:44 »
NIce post.

Again! You should get a reward.
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Offline tony6789

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« Reply #475 on: 04/05/2007 16:35:51 »
yea i agree
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Offline chimera

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« Reply #476 on: 04/05/2007 17:00:55 »
How much is the "Church" worth?

Some say The Vatican is worth 1 billion (euros), some say 5, but the real total value sold at an auction, say, would probably be a multiple of that last number. Highest I've heard is close to 50 billion, Holy See + Vatican City.

Ofcourse, that's only the Roman Catholic Church, them poor, poor beggars. Other numbers of other faiths are much harder to obtain, because of a lack of a big central organisation like the RCC has.
Errare humanum esd.-- Biggus D.

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Offline Ben6789

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« Reply #477 on: 04/05/2007 19:09:12 »
How much is the "Church" worth?

Some say The Vatican is worth 1 billion (euros), some say 5, but the real total value sold at an auction, say, would probably be a multiple of that last number. Highest I've heard is close to 50 billion, Holy See + Vatican City.

Ofcourse, that's only the Roman Catholic Church, them poor, poor beggars. Other numbers of other faiths are much harder to obtain, because of a lack of a big central organisation like the RCC has.


5 euros or 5 million euros?
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Offline chimera

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« Reply #478 on: 04/05/2007 20:23:58 »
All numbers are billions, although some reports use dollars, so it's only roughly equivalence with euros. But not lire or zloty, in any case. [:)]

You have to add up quite a few separate not-so-impressive cashflows together though and take all the assets artwork/real estate into consideration as well, especially that last one's an enormous figure alone. Now that's all 'priceless' and valued at 1$, like. Token value.

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20061201175736AAx89Vt
http://www.nationsencyclopedia.com/Europe/Vatican.html
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Offline Mjhavok

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« Reply #479 on: 04/05/2007 22:14:39 »
The Vatican is one of the most opulent places on the planet. It is probably priceless. No one could ever buy it.
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Offline chimera

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« Reply #480 on: 05/05/2007 02:16:27 »
Think that's very relative - a lot of the Church's gold came from Latin-America, and in a lot of cases was formerly representing totally different religious embellishments/artforms, equally priceless. Melting pots and greedy people care very little about such things. :P
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Offline Ben6789

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« Reply #481 on: 07/05/2007 16:45:11 »
Umm, sure.
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« Reply #482 on: 07/05/2007 17:44:11 »
lol.

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Offline Ben6789

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« Reply #483 on: 09/05/2007 16:29:14 »
WHat? No one knows what to say all of a sudden?
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Offline socratus

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« Reply #484 on: 11/05/2007 18:42:15 »
Science & Philosophy. Religion & Physics.  XXIc.
================
The laws of physics and mathematics in the different countries
of the world  are  identical, but religions - different.
 Why?
Because the religion is not proved with the laws
of physics and mathematics.
Question:
Is it possible to unite the laws of physics with religion?
Answer:
Yes. It is possible.
================   
The time, when concepts: “religion, god, spirit” are possible
to explain with the formulas, equations and laws of physics, has come.
 In my book and on a site I approve that it is possible.
==================
The secret of words 'God', 'soul ', 'religion', ‘ Existence’,
'dualism of consciousness', 'human being'  hide
 in the “Theory of Light quanta”.
================= .
   http://www.socratus.com
The secret of 'God' and 'Existence' hide
 in the “Theory of Light quanta”.

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Offline Batroost

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« Reply #485 on: 11/05/2007 19:29:55 »
Quote
Is it possible to unite the laws of physics with religion?
Answer:
Yes. It is possible.

Why bother trying?

If you don't believe in the latter then it has no relevance to the former.
Never express yourself more clearly than you are able to think.

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Offline tony6789

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« Reply #486 on: 14/05/2007 16:26:21 »
if u try then u can finally know the truth
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Offline Mjhavok

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« Reply #487 on: 14/05/2007 16:33:11 »
Anyone else think socratus is smoking way too much crack?
Steven
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Offline Ben6789

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« Reply #488 on: 14/05/2007 16:36:02 »
Anyone else think socratus is smoking way too much crack?

No...why would anyone think that? Because he thinks it's possible for the God, to exist?

Or because he thinks science and religon can be joined?
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Offline Mjhavok

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« Reply #489 on: 14/05/2007 16:46:12 »
No because he thinks he has done it.
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Offline Ben6789

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« Reply #490 on: 14/05/2007 16:50:26 »
Joined religon and science? Impossible. Need proof? See how long this religous post has grown on a science site? Everyone's made up their mind on what they beileve and have good reasons, but so does the other side and neither are giving ground.
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Offline Mjhavok

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« Reply #491 on: 14/05/2007 16:54:43 »
You act like they both have equal footing in reality.
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Offline Batroost

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« Reply #492 on: 14/05/2007 18:09:35 »
Both science and religion are true.

(For a given value of 'true').
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Offline Ben6789

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« Reply #493 on: 15/05/2007 13:22:18 »
God's truer then any science thats for sure.
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« Reply #494 on: 15/05/2007 13:38:26 »
God's truer then any science thats for sure.

Is this a fuzzy logic argument?

I did not think that most religions had a very high tolerance for fuzzy logic - they usually regarded as something being either true or false, and so one could not have degrees of being 'true'.

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Offline Ben6789

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« Reply #495 on: 15/05/2007 16:31:21 »
No, it's not a fuzzy logic arguement.
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« Reply #496 on: 15/05/2007 16:48:21 »
No, it's not a fuzzy logic arguement.

So how do you explain the notion that "God's truer then any science" - unless you regard science as false?

Either you regard science as false, or you regard both science and God as equally true, but to regard that science is not false, but is less true than religion, smacks of fuzzy logic to me?

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Offline Ben6789

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« Reply #497 on: 15/05/2007 16:52:53 »
Science is true...in some things.

But God's better at being less fuzzy in some topics.
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« Reply #498 on: 15/05/2007 17:50:29 »
Science is true...in some things.

But God's better at being less fuzzy in some topics.

But this just reiterates what batroost stated, that they are true (if so they be) in different domains; not that one is more or less true than the other.

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Offline kdlynn

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« Reply #499 on: 15/05/2007 18:20:20 »
well tony, that's where faith steps in... do you believe he is real?