[tbarron]

Something eternal is something that doesn't have extension in the temporal direction. Its value is the same at all points on the time axis.

This captures a major factor in the problem. If it "doesn't have extension in the temporal direction", how can it be present "at all points on the time axis"?

1) Its value might be zero at all points on the time axis.

2) Its value might be some fixed non-zero value. If it doesn't change with time, how would we notice its presence?

[imatfaal]

We noticed gravity and understood it well - at a point in our history when gravitational attraction was observable as a fixed (in place and in time)  non-zero quantity

[Foolosophy]

a black hole is mathematically defined as a singularity

what does this say about a black holes density - or any other property for that matter???

[Bill S]

Its value might be zero at all points on the time axis.

I suspect you are still thinking in terms of mathematical infinities.  Eternity can neither have, nor be placed on, a time axis.  It is not time.

We noticed gravity and understood it well - at a point in our history when gravitational attraction was observable as a fixed (in place and in time)  non-zero quantity

Are you saying that gravity is eternal?

[rwjefferson (OP)]

Is black hole mass infinitely dense?
Is this proved or dogma?

peace
rwjefferson

force is inertial differential

  It isn't proven as such. Penrose and Hawking singularities dictate that a black hole has a singular region which is infinitely dense.

We are all playing with words because we just do not know. 

I don't think anyone can definitively answer this question since our theories don't cover it... 

  In other words, your own personal theories are new or disproved.

Bonus Questions
According to the dictates of Penrose and Hawking; how much dirt is in a hole 1x1x1x1? 
What is the relative density at the eye of a drain? 
Is black hole mass closer to infinitely less than dense?

Fellow Geezers
Force as inertial differential is not a new theory.
Force as inertial differential is not a disproved theory.

Force as inertial differential is the law of physics.

peace
ron

[Bill S]

You are not getting away as easily as that.  []

Its value might be zero at all points on the time axis.

What does this mean? 
If it has zero value, is it really there? 
How can eternity be accommodated at any point on a time line?

[Geezer]

Fellow Geezers
Force as......

Oi! I'll have you know there is only one Geezer on this forum.

[Foolosophy]

....a black hole is really just a very dense de-fusionised star

A singularity is a mathematical construct

never the twain shall meeteth

[yor_on]

Infinity exists, matter accelerated to light-speed has to be an 'infinite slope', as matter otherwise would break the light barrier at some point if accelerated enough. And the predecessor to a black hole is a finite object becoming a singularity. It's like 'distance' though, plasticity incorporated, but I'm sure it exist, even if we never will 'see it' practically.

[CPT ArkAngel]

Any particle has a maximum acceleration point. Beyond that acceleration, the particle will break and changed into photons going at the speed of light...

[yor_on]

Okay CPT

That's one solution, but as seen from its own frame, for example accelerating at one G continuously, it would take about five years to reach 0.999934 % of light-speed with the equation being "v/c = tanh (at/c). Since tanh(at/c) is always less than 1, you can never reach the speed of light."

And to you that would be noticed as one Earth Gravity.

[CPT ArkAngel]

yes, but you will need an increasing toward infinity force to accelerate at a constant rate until the speed of light is reached, which is not possible. My point was about increasing acceleration though...

[yor_on]

Yeah, I guessed that you might mean it that way

[rwjefferson (OP)]

Truth passes through three stages.
First, it is ridiculed.
Second, it is violently opposed.
Third, it is accepted as being self-evident.

You are not getting away as easily as that.  []

Kindly stick to the subject.  Please feel free to launch other topics if you wish to propose a new theory.  Thanks!

....a black hole is really just a very dense de-fusionised star...

We are all playing with words because we just do not know. 

Please answer the questions.

1) How dense is the dirt within a hole 1'x1'x1'? 
2) What is the relative density of the eye of a hurricane after another million tons of airmass is swallowed? 
3) Does a black hole demonstrate the most basic law of physics or the actions of spooky warp?

ItS
peace
r~

[Geezer]

It's not very good form to quote from a post in a different thread, particularly when it's entirely out of context.

[peppercorn]

1) How dense is the dirt within a hole 1'x1'x1'? 
2) What is the relative density of the eye of a hurricane after another million tons of airmass is swallowed? 
3) Does a black hole demonstrate the most basic law of physics or the actions of spooky warp?

Are you on drugs?

[Magnus W]

I think Mr Kip Thorn said that there is no matter inside a black hole, "that all the matter is converted to the energy in the form of curvature of spacetime" If that is correct density whould have no meaning right? since there is no matter to have a density? But maybe your stuck with the same problem anyway. infinite energy density?

[krdu]

These theories you are expousing miss an extremely important point - they all attempt to view a black hole from the outside.  What does a black hole look like from the inside?  Well, at one time, the answer was fairly simple - "look around you - you are in one!"  That is, if the universe was expanding at a decreasing rate, and eventually would contract into a "big crunch" by definition, the universe would be a black hole.

Recent information indicates thhat the universe may not collapse.  If so, this observation is meaningless.  But that has not been positively determined yet.  So, possibly, we all live inside a black hole.

[rwjefferson (OP)]

... infinite energy density? 

Density is a property of matter; energy is anti-dense.
... positive or negative infinite energy density?

What is the energy density within the eye of a hypersonic cyclone?  Does infinite energy density tell which way the cosmic wind will blow? 

in the spirit of
peace
ron~

[yor_on]

Density isn't the word for it any more. We do not know what 'energy' is although we know of its transformations. The center of a black hole is 'energy' and nobody have ever put a 'size' to energy, neither have we a measured a 'density' for it. It's like all other ideas where we go out from what we know here to describe what we never ever will be able to measure.

We can't know the inside of a black hole, we can have theories though And I have to admit that I love theories too ) But before someone show me a parcel of pure energy and then prove that it also have a 'density' I will wait with trusting to those descriptions:)