Do humans have free will?

  • 110 Replies
  • 30172 Views

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

*

Offline yor_on

  • Naked Science Forum GOD!
  • *******
  • 12188
  • (Ah, yes:) *a table is always good to hide under*
    • View Profile
Do humans have free will?
« Reply #50 on: 01/01/2011 19:36:44 »
Yep, nice definition Joe. On the individual plane we all have a free will.
"BOMB DISPOSAL EXPERT. If you see me running, try to keep up."

*

SteveFish

  • Guest
Do humans have free will?
« Reply #51 on: 01/01/2011 19:39:37 »
Yor_on. I will give this one more try. Please provide a definition of free will that will allow us to evaluate it in light of your notions regarding causality. Even more important, how would your definition of free will differentiate between a person making a decision and a complex computer program making a decision? Steve

*

SteveFish

  • Guest
Do humans have free will?
« Reply #52 on: 01/01/2011 19:44:32 »
Joe. I am willing to accept your definition if you will admit that this also means that my dog and the giant banana slug I just moved off the porch also have free will. If you don't agree, what is the difference. Steve

*

Offline yor_on

  • Naked Science Forum GOD!
  • *******
  • 12188
  • (Ah, yes:) *a table is always good to hide under*
    • View Profile
Do humans have free will?
« Reply #53 on: 01/01/2011 19:47:26 »
Look up my references Steve, then I hope you will see why I see it like I do. There are more things to it of course, but ain't it that way always? But they are a good staring point for what 'free will' might be. If you accept the basic premises I do. That we too, are a part of a physical system called 'SpaceTime'.
"BOMB DISPOSAL EXPERT. If you see me running, try to keep up."

*

Offline sliffy

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • 24
    • View Profile
Do humans have free will?
« Reply #54 on: 01/01/2011 19:50:51 »
thx, i see better
i know that our doll is within another doll and the number of dolls can be infinity but i guess that not only our world is determined
the designer in the upper level should be determined as well
his world has rules as well
« Last Edit: 01/01/2011 19:53:28 by sliffy »

*

Offline yor_on

  • Naked Science Forum GOD!
  • *******
  • 12188
  • (Ah, yes:) *a table is always good to hide under*
    • View Profile
Do humans have free will?
« Reply #55 on: 01/01/2011 19:58:44 »
As for what differ a program with multiple choices and a human being?
Depends on how many choices that human sees, don't it?
The difference have to be in my question here :)

That is if you don't construct a quantum computer, or a analogue one with an infinity of possible 'choices', and also it seems to be a thing of 'magnifying/contracting' what 'reality' we look on as QM also seems to leave choices open, but hinged in by 'probability'.

So it becomes a very philosophical question if you want to narrow it down. I'm not trying to, I just look at what I think is significant for my understanding of 'SpaceTime' and when it comes to 'free will' I have this definition.
"BOMB DISPOSAL EXPERT. If you see me running, try to keep up."

*

Offline yor_on

  • Naked Science Forum GOD!
  • *******
  • 12188
  • (Ah, yes:) *a table is always good to hide under*
    • View Profile
Do humans have free will?
« Reply #56 on: 01/01/2011 20:03:04 »
Well Sliffy, that depends on your own definition of what the world ultimately should be seen as. My view is that the world probably is a whole thing, and if we could see it that way the question about free will will become meaningless on that plane. But I don't expect any arrow to exist there either. The question of a 'free will' is meaningful only under our arrow as I see it.

(arrow of time)
"BOMB DISPOSAL EXPERT. If you see me running, try to keep up."

*

Offline sliffy

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • 24
    • View Profile
Do humans have free will?
« Reply #57 on: 01/01/2011 20:13:06 »
you write: "free will will become meaningless on that plane"... >> why it is meaningless? do you agree that free will doesn't exist if our system is closed?
i can't imagine a closed system working by rules to be non-determined

 

*

SteveFish

  • Guest
Do humans have free will?
« Reply #58 on: 01/01/2011 20:37:05 »
Yor_on. What references are you referring to? Are you unwilling to give your own definition of free will? I don't accept your basic premises because you haven't actually laid them out in a logical manner. Do you actually think that the number of choices available to a person, or computer, is what defines free will? If you know what you think free will is, just define it. Steve

*

Offline yor_on

  • Naked Science Forum GOD!
  • *******
  • 12188
  • (Ah, yes:) *a table is always good to hide under*
    • View Profile
Do humans have free will?
« Reply #59 on: 01/01/2011 21:00:43 »
Look Steve, I can see you want a ah, 'discussion' about it. I'm not interested, simple as that. I do not have the answer to the universe although I have my own opinions. The references was 'bifurcations' and then the 'Feigenbaum constant'.

And Sliffy, the 'thingie' that i expect to be 'whole' is not what we call SpaceTime. It's ? Well, it have to include the virtual aspects as well as what we see as those 'Russian dolls'. It's not anything I know how to specify, as there most probably will be more to it than what I can see. And our 'SpaceTime' and the the 'arrow' created by that I see as a consequence of it, with us infused with all that 'virtuality' etc. We 'exist' on many planes simultaneously if you look at it like that, the 'virtual world' being inside each one of us. So? My view that is :)
"BOMB DISPOSAL EXPERT. If you see me running, try to keep up."

*

Offline yor_on

  • Naked Science Forum GOD!
  • *******
  • 12188
  • (Ah, yes:) *a table is always good to hide under*
    • View Profile
Do humans have free will?
« Reply #60 on: 01/01/2011 21:10:15 »
Think about it Sliffy.
Where is your choice if you have no arrow of time to 'create' it in?
Also called 'causality chains'.
"BOMB DISPOSAL EXPERT. If you see me running, try to keep up."

*

Offline Joe L. Ogan

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • 476
    • View Profile
Do humans have free will?
« Reply #61 on: 01/01/2011 21:29:19 »
Joe. I am willing to accept your definition if you will admit that this also means that my dog and the giant banana slug I just moved off the porch also have free will. If you don't agree, what is the difference. Steve

Hi, Steve.  I agree that your dog and your slog have free will within their limitations.  You are one of their limitations.  Thanks for comments

*

Offline sliffy

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • 24
    • View Profile
Do humans have free will?
« Reply #62 on: 01/01/2011 22:21:03 »
yor_on,

you ask "where is my choice?"
i don't have choice... i'm a bio robot who makes his decisions by the input data getting on sense-organs in a ruled world

*

SteveFish

  • Guest
Do humans have free will?
« Reply #63 on: 01/01/2011 23:04:23 »
Joe, I am OK with such a loose definition, but I have one complaint. It was a banana slug, quite beautiful. I greatly expanded his/her free will for the future which would have been cut short by being stepped on. Steve

*

Offline Joe L. Ogan

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • 476
    • View Profile
Do humans have free will?
« Reply #64 on: 01/01/2011 23:11:13 »
Joe, I am OK with such a loose definition, but I have one complaint. It was a banana slug, quite beautiful. I greatly expanded his/her free will for the future which would have been cut short by being stepped on. Steve

Hi, Steve.  Yes, I forgot to state that you are one of their assets also.  Thanks for comments.  Joe L. Ogan

*

Offline yor_on

  • Naked Science Forum GOD!
  • *******
  • 12188
  • (Ah, yes:) *a table is always good to hide under*
    • View Profile
Do humans have free will?
« Reply #65 on: 01/01/2011 23:44:19 »
We all have our own way of looking at reality.
And a free choice is something treated under an 'arrow of time'.
Without an arrow that concept loses its meaning.

It depends on how you define your 'system' :)
In yours?

Well, I'll leave that to your imagination.
"BOMB DISPOSAL EXPERT. If you see me running, try to keep up."

*

Offline sliffy

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • 24
    • View Profile
Do humans have free will?
« Reply #66 on: 02/01/2011 07:54:21 »
in my definition: i would have free will if my decision wouldn't be calculable
but i see my decisions calculable so i think that my will isn't free

how do you define free will?

*

Offline Geezer

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • 8328
  • "Vive la résistance!"
    • View Profile
Do humans have free will?
« Reply #67 on: 02/01/2011 17:02:02 »
in my definition: i would have free will if my decision wouldn't be calculable
but i see my decisions calculable so i think that my will isn't free


I don't think they are calculable. I certainly cannot anticipate your future actions, and I doubt that you can either. Any calculation will result in an infinite number of possible actions, so we already know the answer before we do any calculation.
There ain'ta no sanity clause, and there ain'ta no centrifugal force æther.

*

Offline sliffy

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • 24
    • View Profile
Do humans have free will?
« Reply #68 on: 02/01/2011 17:15:49 »
Greezer,

i didn't say that you, me or the designer can calculate the future... "calculable" doesn't mean that anybody has the capability to calculate
calculable means that our system works by rules so it's condition in the future is determined
- do you understand now what i mean?
- do you still say that our universe's future is non-determined?
if yes, please explain why?

*

Offline Geezer

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • 8328
  • "Vive la résistance!"
    • View Profile
Do humans have free will?
« Reply #69 on: 02/01/2011 18:30:05 »
It's not calculable if you can't predict the outcome.

For a system to be 100% predictable, it cannot react to any external variables, which means it must be entirely self contained.

Whenever a system has to react to external variables, the outcome cannot be 100% predictable. It's only possible to talk about the probability of certain outcomes.
There ain'ta no sanity clause, and there ain'ta no centrifugal force æther.

*

Offline sliffy

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • 24
    • View Profile
Do humans have free will?
« Reply #70 on: 02/01/2011 18:38:42 »
yes, you are right but not only our system is determined... the other layers which contain our universe are also determined
even the designer's world is determined

it's not an assumption to be predictable... it doesn' matter if the designer (or god) can compute the future or not... the whole existence works by rules >> everything is determined
« Last Edit: 02/01/2011 18:40:30 by sliffy »

*

Offline Geezer

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • 8328
  • "Vive la résistance!"
    • View Profile
Do humans have free will?
« Reply #71 on: 02/01/2011 18:50:23 »
everything is determined

I don't think so. You can't even determine at precisely what temperature a simple thermostat will switch on or off.

The "I'm a computer" analogy isn't right either. Contrary to popular opinion, the outcome of any computer that reacts to external events is never 100% reliable, let alone predictable.
There ain'ta no sanity clause, and there ain'ta no centrifugal force æther.

*

Offline rosy

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • 1018
  • Chemistry
    • View Profile
Do humans have free will?
« Reply #72 on: 02/01/2011 19:01:29 »
It's perfectly possible that everything is "determined", but that's not the same as "predictable".

The behaviour of the human brain may be determined by the physics/biochemistry/etc of its existing state, but even leaving out any other kind of consideration, ionising radiation, has the potential to alter the chemistry of the DNA and other reactions and thus, ultimately, alter behaviour. So although free will may be illusory, it's still impossible to calculate behaviour (even if it were possible to compile a complete model of the state of the brain at a partcicular instant, which it wouldn't be).

*

Offline sliffy

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • 24
    • View Profile
Do humans have free will?
« Reply #73 on: 02/01/2011 19:13:25 »
rosy,

i agree...  :)
that's all i wanted to say... i don't say that you can predict the future... tis topic is not about that
i just say that if everything is determined than you have no free will
you are a robot

*

Offline sliffy

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • 24
    • View Profile
Do humans have free will?
« Reply #74 on: 02/01/2011 19:16:23 »
Greezer,
you don't understand me... i didn't say that me or someone else can determine anything
the whole existense is determined... read rosy's post... you may will understand

*

SteveFish

  • Guest
Do humans have free will?
« Reply #75 on: 02/01/2011 19:22:34 »
Our brain is a physical entity that calculates and controls all our behavior and thought. It might make inaccurate or uninformed calculations, but it is the physical instrument of our behavior and thought. When parts of it are broken, we don’t work so well. So if anybody wishes to claim that this isn’t true and that this system is, somehow, working outside of causality please explain how this can work. Steve

*

Offline Geezer

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • 8328
  • "Vive la résistance!"
    • View Profile
Do humans have free will?
« Reply #76 on: 02/01/2011 19:45:44 »
Greezer,
you don't understand me... i didn't say that me or someone else can determine anything
the whole existense is determined... read rosy's post... you may will understand

I was really objecting to your statement about "calculable".  I contend that is truly impossible because of quantization thresholds. It's not a question of the size of the computer available to do the calculation. That's why I rasied the very simple case of the thermostat.

There ain'ta no sanity clause, and there ain'ta no centrifugal force æther.

*

Offline sliffy

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • 24
    • View Profile
Do humans have free will?
« Reply #77 on: 02/01/2011 19:58:23 »
Greezer,
sorry for my bad english... it's maybe because of that
anyway do you agree with me?

if yes than we can go further...

we are a kind of robots... our free will is likely to the robot's >> determined
there are two things which determine our behavior
1. dna
2. circumstances

none of them is influenceable by me >> i am no responsible for my decisions in front of the designer
i am only responsible for the society >> for the laws which are necessary for working the system

*

Offline rosy

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • 1018
  • Chemistry
    • View Profile
Do humans have free will?
« Reply #78 on: 02/01/2011 20:07:41 »
Quote
none of them is influenceable by me >> i am no responsible for my decisions in front of the designer
You're arguing both a deterministic view of free will, and a designer?
Goodness.
Well, I suppose people have managed to believe for centuries in Calvinist pre-destination, so I shouldn't be surprised. But it seems to assume a pretty odd "designer".
Why on earth (or anywhere else..) bother to believe in such a being?

*

Offline sliffy

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • 24
    • View Profile
Do humans have free will?
« Reply #79 on: 02/01/2011 20:40:16 »
i see everywhere the marks of an intelligent design
but it is not the issue of this topic

*

Offline Geezer

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • 8328
  • "Vive la résistance!"
    • View Profile
Do humans have free will?
« Reply #80 on: 02/01/2011 21:37:33 »
Greezer,
sorry for my bad english... it's maybe because of that
anyway do you agree with me?

if yes than we can go further...

we are a kind of robots... our free will is likely to the robot's >> determined
there are two things which determine our behavior
1. dna
2. circumstances

none of them is influenceable by me >> i am no responsible for my decisions in front of the designer
i am only responsible for the society >> for the laws which are necessary for working the system

Ah, but that's my point about computers (and robots if you like). Their state is not synchronized with the external events to which they react, so their behaviour is never truly deterministic. You can only say they will probably do this or that.
There ain'ta no sanity clause, and there ain'ta no centrifugal force æther.

*

Offline Geezer

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • 8328
  • "Vive la résistance!"
    • View Profile
Do humans have free will?
« Reply #81 on: 02/01/2011 21:50:10 »
Our brain is a physical entity that calculates and controls all our behavior and thought. It might make inaccurate or uninformed calculations, but it is the physical instrument of our behavior and thought. When parts of it are broken, we don’t work so well. So if anybody wishes to claim that this isn’t true and that this system is, somehow, working outside of causality please explain how this can work. Steve

Based on our current understanding, without a time machine, it's impossible to recreate precisely a set of circumstances, so it's impossible to prove that we will behave exactly the same way twice. We can only talk of probabilities.

Consider this: The states of the stuff of which we are made (atoms) is indeterminate. If you can prove that a uranium atom is controlled in a deterministic fashion so that we can say, with great accuracy, when it will emit a particle as it decays, then perhaps we have no free will.

 
There ain'ta no sanity clause, and there ain'ta no centrifugal force æther.

*

Offline sliffy

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • 24
    • View Profile
Do humans have free will?
« Reply #82 on: 02/01/2011 22:11:02 »
we can't be sure that atoms are indeterminate... scientists say it today and it can be changed tomorrow... atoms should behave by rules as well... just we don't know all this rules yet... but rules should exist
anyway i wouldn't dig so deep into the system... i am not sure in anything... i am not sure if material exist... the whole system can be an illusion... everything is posssible

i just say that the system works by rules... there should be rules... if there is no rule >> then it is a rule that there is no rule... coincident doesn't exist
a system working by a rule is determined... that's all i want to say
we are part of a determined world >> our fate is determined
« Last Edit: 02/01/2011 22:20:05 by sliffy »

*

Offline Geezer

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • 8328
  • "Vive la résistance!"
    • View Profile
Do humans have free will?
« Reply #83 on: 02/01/2011 23:46:06 »
we can't be sure that atoms are indeterminate... scientists say it today and it can be changed tomorrow... atoms should behave by rules as well... just we don't know all this rules yet... but rules should exist
anyway i wouldn't dig so deep into the system... i am not sure in anything... i am not sure if material exist... the whole system can be an illusion... everything is posssible

i just say that the system works by rules... there should be rules... if there is no rule >> then it is a rule that there is no rule... coincident doesn't exist
a system working by a rule is determined... that's all i want to say
we are part of a determined world >> our fate is determined

Well, if you are going to refute a huge amount of well established science, you might as well say that the rules are established by the Easter Bunny  [;D]. You are entitled to your own opinion of course, and it seems unlikely I'll be able to alter it either.
There ain'ta no sanity clause, and there ain'ta no centrifugal force æther.

*

Offline yor_on

  • Naked Science Forum GOD!
  • *******
  • 12188
  • (Ah, yes:) *a table is always good to hide under*
    • View Profile
Do humans have free will?
« Reply #84 on: 03/01/2011 01:31:13 »
Hmm yeah, wow.
you guys really have looked into this :)

Geezer, nice to see that we are two that think that indeterminacy exist :)
As for if it's a 'clock work universe?'

I vote n0000. ::))

As for if we have a 'Divine Designer'?
I don't really know.
He haven't knocked on my door yet though.

And if we know want to go with a predestined universe, shouldn't we inform those poor particles too? So that they can stop that nonsense? And our 'virtual particles' N0 Such Thing :) We will have order here, GET IN LINE...
"BOMB DISPOSAL EXPERT. If you see me running, try to keep up."

*

SteveFish

  • Guest
Do humans have free will?
« Reply #85 on: 03/01/2011 01:36:28 »
Geezer (Greezer, I like it). Everybody seems to be hung up on quantum mechanics and intrinsically unpredictable phenomena. Just because the outcome is statistical doesn’t mean that what happened wasn’t dependent upon what happened previously. So, you can’t determine exactly when a specific uranium atom undergoes fission, but isn’t the fact that it does, eventually, have a specific cause and effect relationship. At the brain level, individual neural decisions are even more statistically related and much more complex than uranium fission.  When a subset of brain systems made a decision for us, it is the result of a causal sequence of events. It doesn’t matter how faulty this might be because of randomness. It took me a while to understand this, but the main point in this discussion is— If you think that free will just consists of randomness in the chain of causality, then free will is a trivial concept. In other words, what is free about making random errors? Steve
« Last Edit: 03/01/2011 05:01:54 by JP »

*

Offline yor_on

  • Naked Science Forum GOD!
  • *******
  • 12188
  • (Ah, yes:) *a table is always good to hide under*
    • View Profile
Do humans have free will?
« Reply #86 on: 03/01/2011 01:37:59 »
Steve you're plain wrong there. :)
If you look up my references you will understand,
"BOMB DISPOSAL EXPERT. If you see me running, try to keep up."

*

SteveFish

  • Guest
Do humans have free will?
« Reply #87 on: 03/01/2011 01:41:12 »
Yor_on. You said you didn't wish to discuss this. I respect your decision. Steve

*

Offline yor_on

  • Naked Science Forum GOD!
  • *******
  • 12188
  • (Ah, yes:) *a table is always good to hide under*
    • View Profile
Do humans have free will?
« Reply #88 on: 03/01/2011 01:43:00 »
That's true.

Chaos theory. 
"BOMB DISPOSAL EXPERT. If you see me running, try to keep up."

*

Offline yor_on

  • Naked Science Forum GOD!
  • *******
  • 12188
  • (Ah, yes:) *a table is always good to hide under*
    • View Profile
Do humans have free will?
« Reply #89 on: 03/01/2011 01:44:19 »
And those digital computers?
How 'digital' are they??
"BOMB DISPOSAL EXPERT. If you see me running, try to keep up."

*

SteveFish

  • Guest
Do humans have free will?
« Reply #90 on: 03/01/2011 01:46:07 »
I have several books on Chaos theory. It has nothing to do with this topic.

*

Offline yor_on

  • Naked Science Forum GOD!
  • *******
  • 12188
  • (Ah, yes:) *a table is always good to hide under*
    • View Profile
Do humans have free will?
« Reply #91 on: 03/01/2011 01:53:27 »
Well, believe me or not, but they work on 'energy' :)
Anyone want to show me a ounce of pure energy??

And no white powder now.. Energy thank you.

And if we work our way up we come to 'virtual photons' and then to 'real' photons' and then to electrons protons and stuff'
That behaves so weiirrdd.

Electrons can be superpositioned for example, meaning that 'one' can be in two 'places' simultaneously :) And then that stupid 'electricity' can 'tunnel' through solid matter too? Where they shouldn't. But not all the time, statistically or probability defines the amount. But we can't define 'when', well, as far as I know?

And then we come to GF.
Totally unpredictable they are, as any male of sound mind knows :)
"BOMB DISPOSAL EXPERT. If you see me running, try to keep up."

*

Offline yor_on

  • Naked Science Forum GOD!
  • *******
  • 12188
  • (Ah, yes:) *a table is always good to hide under*
    • View Profile
Do humans have free will?
« Reply #92 on: 03/01/2011 01:55:03 »
Well, if you have them?

Then you should know. For the rest of us, not having your books Steve the link might be nice :)
Do look at what a bifurcation is.
« Last Edit: 03/01/2011 03:55:40 by yor_on »
"BOMB DISPOSAL EXPERT. If you see me running, try to keep up."

*

SteveFish

  • Guest
Do humans have free will?
« Reply #93 on: 03/01/2011 02:03:46 »
I do know. I also know that you should calm down a little. If you really want to talk about free will, you have to give a definition before anyone could evaluate how quantum events might support the notion. I presume your reference to chaos theory has to do with the butterfly effect. This is a causal, though unexpected, event, and is very, very, rare in the real world. Steve

*

Offline yor_on

  • Naked Science Forum GOD!
  • *******
  • 12188
  • (Ah, yes:) *a table is always good to hide under*
    • View Profile
Do humans have free will?
« Reply #94 on: 03/01/2011 02:11:53 »
What you should notice is that even though we can't define single outcomes there will still be possible to see what I call 'patterns' as showed by the Feigenbaum constant. And that's just so weird :) I think. Here we have outcomes that in fact are unpredictable but when looking at larger patterns we still see a linearity. And that reminds me of statistics, and the fact that even though we can't predict single human behavior, as if we could psychology would look the exact same all over the world with every mental disease on its proper shelve, but it doesn't. Every country find their own definition and although psychologist worldwide try to 'get in line' it's still a very 'human science' :)

That's why behaviorism is so popular nowadays. It wants to reduce human behavior to a Newtonian 'action and reaction'. And it works in a lot of ways :) Humans are, if nothing else, adaptable to the society they live in, but so did shamanism :) Not that I find psychology and shamanism to be the same. Anyway, most thing in life seems unpredictable on a 'personal plane' even though predictable statistically. Just like those Russian dolls, inside dolls, inside dolls insi.. Thats unpredictability inside predictability insi.. etc.

And that's what I find interesting.
"BOMB DISPOSAL EXPERT. If you see me running, try to keep up."

*

Offline Geezer

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • 8328
  • "Vive la résistance!"
    • View Profile
Do humans have free will?
« Reply #95 on: 03/01/2011 02:12:24 »
Geezer (Greezer, I like it). Everybody seems to be hung up on quantum mechanics and intrinsically unpredictable phenomena. Just because the outcome is statistical doesn’t mean that what happened wasn’t dependent upon what happened previously. So, you can’t determine exactly when a specific uranium atom undergoes fission, but isn’t the fact that it does, eventually, have a specific cause and effect relationship. At the brain level, individual neural decisions are even more statistically related and much more complex than uranium fission.  When a subset of brain systems made a decision for us, it is the result of a causal sequence of events. It doesn’t matter how faulty this might be because of randomness. It took me a while to understand this, but the main point in this discussion is— If you think that free will just consists of randomness in the chain of causality, then free will is a trivial concept. In other words, what is free about making random errors? Steve

Thanks Steve.
There ain'ta no sanity clause, and there ain'ta no centrifugal force æther.

*

Offline yor_on

  • Naked Science Forum GOD!
  • *******
  • 12188
  • (Ah, yes:) *a table is always good to hide under*
    • View Profile
Do humans have free will?
« Reply #96 on: 03/01/2011 02:15:40 »
No, chaos theory shows itself everywhere Steve.
"BOMB DISPOSAL EXPERT. If you see me running, try to keep up."

*

Offline Geezer

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • 8328
  • "Vive la résistance!"
    • View Profile
Do humans have free will?
« Reply #97 on: 03/01/2011 02:38:12 »
When a subset of brain systems made a decision for us, it is the result of a causal sequence of events. It doesn’t matter how faulty this might be because of randomness. 

It's not a question of randomness. It's a question of a lack of synchronization with a causal sequence that can result in different responses. In many cases this will have a very small effect (if any) on the outcome, but it still means that the outcome is statistically indeterminate.

There ain'ta no sanity clause, and there ain'ta no centrifugal force æther.

*

SteveFish

  • Guest
Do humans have free will?
« Reply #98 on: 03/01/2011 02:44:56 »
Geezer, I agree with your assessment. What I have said suggests the question-- Do you think that a little true randomness in the decisions that we all make represents free will? I don't think that my occasional mistakes, whether I am aware of them or not, are a representation of freedom. It seems to me that this represents the opposite because I am not responsible. Steve
« Last Edit: 03/01/2011 02:47:21 by SteveFish »

*

Offline Geezer

  • Neilep Level Member
  • ******
  • 8328
  • "Vive la résistance!"
    • View Profile
Do humans have free will?
« Reply #99 on: 03/01/2011 03:14:45 »
Geezer, I agree with your assessment. What I have said suggests the question-- Do you think that a little true randomness in the decisions that we all make represents free will? I don't think that my occasional mistakes, whether I am aware of them or not, are a representation of freedom. It seems to me that this represents the opposite because I am not responsible. Steve

I'm not referring to randomness, or making mistakes. All I'm saying is that, because you are not completely synchronized with the events in your "environment", even if your evaluation process has no variables within it, you may reach different conclusions for an "apparently" identical set of inputs. I think that's the same as saying you have free will.
There ain'ta no sanity clause, and there ain'ta no centrifugal force æther.