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Joe. I am willing to accept your definition if you will admit that this also means that my dog and the giant banana slug I just moved off the porch also have free will. If you don't agree, what is the difference. SteveHi, Steve. I agree that your dog and your slog have free will within their limitations. You are one of their limitations. Thanks for comments
Joe, I am OK with such a loose definition, but I have one complaint. It was a banana slug, quite beautiful. I greatly expanded his/her free will for the future which would have been cut short by being stepped on. Steve
in my definition: i would have free will if my decision wouldn't be calculable but i see my decisions calculable so i think that my will isn't free
everything is determined
Greezer,you don't understand me... i didn't say that me or someone else can determine anythingthe whole existense is determined... read rosy's post... you may will understand
none of them is influenceable by me >> i am no responsible for my decisions in front of the designer
Greezer,sorry for my bad english... it's maybe because of thatanyway do you agree with me?if yes than we can go further...we are a kind of robots... our free will is likely to the robot's >> determinedthere are two things which determine our behavior1. dna2. circumstancesnone of them is influenceable by me >> i am no responsible for my decisions in front of the designeri am only responsible for the society >> for the laws which are necessary for working the system
Our brain is a physical entity that calculates and controls all our behavior and thought. It might make inaccurate or uninformed calculations, but it is the physical instrument of our behavior and thought. When parts of it are broken, we dont work so well. So if anybody wishes to claim that this isnt true and that this system is, somehow, working outside of causality please explain how this can work. Steve
we can't be sure that atoms are indeterminate... scientists say it today and it can be changed tomorrow... atoms should behave by rules as well... just we don't know all this rules yet... but rules should existanyway i wouldn't dig so deep into the system... i am not sure in anything... i am not sure if material exist... the whole system can be an illusion... everything is posssiblei just say that the system works by rules... there should be rules... if there is no rule >> then it is a rule that there is no rule... coincident doesn't exista system working by a rule is determined... that's all i want to saywe are part of a determined world >> our fate is determined
Geezer (Greezer, I like it). Everybody seems to be hung up on quantum mechanics and intrinsically unpredictable phenomena. Just because the outcome is statistical doesn’t mean that what happened wasn’t dependent upon what happened previously. So, you can’t determine exactly when a specific uranium atom undergoes fission, but isn’t the fact that it does, eventually, have a specific cause and effect relationship. At the brain level, individual neural decisions are even more statistically related and much more complex than uranium fission. When a subset of brain systems made a decision for us, it is the result of a causal sequence of events. It doesn’t matter how faulty this might be because of randomness. It took me a while to understand this, but the main point in this discussion is— If you think that free will just consists of randomness in the chain of causality, then free will is a trivial concept. In other words, what is free about making random errors? Steve
When a subset of brain systems made a decision for us, it is the result of a causal sequence of events. It doesnt matter how faulty this might be because of randomness.
Geezer, I agree with your assessment. What I have said suggests the question-- Do you think that a little true randomness in the decisions that we all make represents free will? I don't think that my occasional mistakes, whether I am aware of them or not, are a representation of freedom. It seems to me that this represents the opposite because I am not responsible. Steve