The Naked Scientists
  • Login
  • Register
  • Podcasts
      • The Naked Scientists
      • eLife
      • Naked Genetics
      • Naked Astronomy
      • In short
      • Naked Neuroscience
      • Ask! The Naked Scientists
      • Question of the Week
      • Archive
      • Video
      • SUBSCRIBE to our Podcasts
  • Articles
      • Science News
      • Features
      • Interviews
      • Answers to Science Questions
  • Get Naked
      • Donate
      • Do an Experiment
      • Science Forum
      • Ask a Question
  • About
      • Meet the team
      • Our Sponsors
      • Site Map
      • Contact us

User menu

  • Login
  • Register
  • Home
  • Help
  • Search
  • Tags
  • Member Map
  • Recent Topics
  • Login
  • Register
  1. Naked Science Forum
  2. General Science
  3. General Science
  4. Is a book who's pages are in order at a low entropy?
« previous next »
  • Print
Pages: [1]   Go Down

Is a book who's pages are in order at a low entropy?

  • 3 Replies
  • 2860 Views
  • 0 Tags

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Eric A. Taylor (OP)

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • 447
  • Activity:
    0%
  • I before E except after C, unless weird science
    • View Profile
Is a book who's pages are in order at a low entropy?
« on: 26/02/2011 00:05:31 »
Entropy is the number of ways you can arrange the parts in a system. The book I'm reading (Fabric of the Cosmos by Brian Greene. He stated that the book War and Peace with the pages in the correct order is in a state of low entropy while if the pages are scrambled it's high entropy. I think this is wrong because no mater what order you randomly place the pages in the chances of THAT order are the same whether it's 1, 2, 3, 4... or 3, 1, 4, 2... or whatever.

We're biased when it comes to letters or numbers because they have a "correct" and "incorrect" order. But both letters and numbers are really just arbitrary. To a person unfamiliar with Latin letters or Arabic numbers the way they are arranged can be completely arbitrary.

I'd argue that a book with say 900 pages has the same entropy no matter what way the pages are arranged as long as they are stacked neatly like you find in most books (I really hate the "rough cut" style of pages in some book) but I could be wrong. Brian Greene has a PhD and I'm just a dumb welder...
Logged
I was once a STAR!!! Well part of a star at least.
 



Offline Madidus_Scientia

  • Naked Science Forum King!
  • ******
  • 1451
  • Activity:
    0%
    • View Profile
Is a book who's pages are in order at a low entropy?
« Reply #1 on: 26/02/2011 03:30:14 »
I agree that its not really a good analogy, and that the chance of any specific sequence occurring would be equal, but maybe he means because the book starts in that sequence, any shuffling will drive it away from that?
Logged
 

Offline Eric A. Taylor (OP)

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • 447
  • Activity:
    0%
  • I before E except after C, unless weird science
    • View Profile
Is a book who's pages are in order at a low entropy?
« Reply #2 on: 26/02/2011 10:23:20 »
Quote from: Madidus_Scientia on 26/02/2011 03:30:14
I agree that its not really a good analogy, and that the chance of any specific sequence occurring would be equal, but maybe he means because the book starts in that sequence, any shuffling will drive it away from that?

He's trying to explain entropy which is commonly misunderstood as the amount of disorder in a system. It's really the number of different ways it could be ranged.

It's like one of those locks with the wheels with numbers. you need to spin the numbers so the correct combination is reached. A lock with 3 wheels will have 999 incorrect combination (you'd have 1 chance in a thousand of guessing the right one) where a 4 wheel lock will have 9999 incorrect combination.

The German Enigma machine worked in this way. At the start of the war it had four wheels (I don't know how many different settings each wheel had) after the English captured one they were reading the orders for the U-boats before their captains. When the Germans added another wheel to Enigma it shut off this flow of information.
Logged
I was once a STAR!!! Well part of a star at least.
 

Offline ricbritain

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • 20
  • Activity:
    0%
    • View Profile
Is a book who's pages are in order at a low entropy?
« Reply #3 on: 27/02/2011 04:31:08 »
That's a fantastic book isn't it. I took me several attempts to get through as each tine I stopped for a few weeks I had to go back to the beginning again, but it gets better as you get through it.
Logged
 



  • Print
Pages: [1]   Go Up
« previous next »
Tags:
 

Similar topics (5)

"liber al" / "book of the law" puzzle

Started by kranwanBoard That CAN'T be true!

Replies: 1
Views: 5533
Last post 11/07/2015 12:00:50
by Beer w/Straw
Has anybody read Nicholas Harberd's book "Seed to Seed"?

Started by blakestygerBoard Plant Sciences, Zoology & Evolution

Replies: 0
Views: 4227
Last post 22/06/2008 09:54:08
by blakestyger
Was the 'shape' of the universe @T=0 the shape with the lowest entropy possible?

Started by peppercornBoard Physics, Astronomy & Cosmology

Replies: 8
Views: 5294
Last post 10/03/2011 21:13:28
by peppercorn
Can I remove The "U" key on my acer note book?

Started by Karen W.Board Geek Speak

Replies: 16
Views: 15849
Last post 27/01/2010 06:33:47
by Karen W.
Does the book "The Sacred Mushroom and the Cross" have any credibility?

Started by alexbalexBoard General Science

Replies: 3
Views: 3436
Last post 28/03/2015 16:43:57
by alexbalex
There was an error while thanking
Thanking...
  • SMF 2.0.15 | SMF © 2017, Simple Machines
    Privacy Policy
    SMFAds for Free Forums
  • Naked Science Forum ©

Page created in 0.09 seconds with 42 queries.

  • Podcasts
  • Articles
  • Get Naked
  • About
  • Contact us
  • Advertise
  • Privacy Policy
  • Subscribe to newsletter
  • We love feedback

Follow us

cambridge_logo_footer.png

©The Naked Scientists® 2000–2017 | The Naked Scientists® and Naked Science® are registered trademarks created by Dr Chris Smith. Information presented on this website is the opinion of the individual contributors and does not reflect the general views of the administrators, editors, moderators, sponsors, Cambridge University or the public at large.