Would my GPS device work on the moon?

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Offline Jolly- Joliver

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Would my GPS device work on the moon?
« Reply #50 on: 02/04/2011 22:51:26 »
""Bored Chemist said no you didn't need a map and that GPS could tell you where you were any where in the universe. "
Oh no I didn't.

Oh yes you did!"

OK, for a start either show a quote where I said that or leave.

Quote
I said "have a complete map of the moon."
Nope, you can use a coordinate system based on earth anywhere, including the moon."

You said nope you do not need a map

Quote
A coordinate system based on earth (the one I had in mind was latitude, longitude and altitude) which can be used to pinpoint any place in the universe.

Even though we do not actually know how big the universe is or what it really looks like!



"Rather than just making a stament couldnt you actually provide some evidence?"
Let me get this straight.
Do you need evidence that about half the satellites would be visible, or you need evidence that you cannot produce a perfectly defined beam with a finite aperture?
Both are clear enough to me.

"GPS Global position system, and there are a few, My hence think statement was based upon, the notion that a mobile phone which does communicate with the satlites, your conversation passes through then as you chat, can also generate a position not using the acutal GPS satalite systems no red herrings at all, or none intended"

I'm sorry, but I simply don't understand that. Could you try reading through it then sorting it out please?
 I will just point out that I don't normally experience satellite delays on my mobile phone.



Oh really you never get signal problems?
« Last Edit: 02/04/2011 22:55:25 by Wiybit »
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Offline Madidus_Scientia

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Would my GPS device work on the moon?
« Reply #51 on: 03/04/2011 06:26:18 »
The "Dark Side of the Moon" has nothing to do with the sun or illumination.
Rather, the moon is tidally locked with the earth.  One side of the moon always faces the earth.  One side (the dark side) always faces away from the earth.  Thus, if you were on the side of the moon facing away from Earth...  the GPS satellites would be useless.

Doesn't the term "dark side of the moon" in itself imply it is to do with illumination? Unless it is meant that that side is evil. "Far side of the moon" I would accept, but I disagree that the dark side of the moon is the side facing away from earth.

The dark side of the moon is the side facing away from the sun. If you've ever seen a half-moon you'll know that the dark side of the moon is still visible from earth.

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Offline Geezer

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Would my GPS device work on the moon?
« Reply #52 on: 03/04/2011 06:35:34 »
The "Dark Side of the Moon" has nothing to do with the sun or illumination.
Rather, the moon is tidally locked with the earth.  One side of the moon always faces the earth.  One side (the dark side) always faces away from the earth.  Thus, if you were on the side of the moon facing away from Earth...  the GPS satellites would be useless.

Doesn't the term "dark side of the moon" in itself imply it is to do with illumination? Unless it is meant that that side is evil. "Far side of the moon" I would accept, but I disagree that the dark side of the moon is the side facing away from earth.

The dark side of the moon is the side facing away from the sun. If you've ever seen a half-moon you'll know that the dark side of the moon is still visible from earth.

I think you are quite correct. We only see one hemisphere of the Moon from Earth, but both hemispheres are illuminated by the Sun.
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Offline Madidus_Scientia

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Would my GPS device work on the moon?
« Reply #53 on: 03/04/2011 06:36:33 »
""Bored Chemist said no you didn't need a map and that GPS could tell you where you were any where in the universe. "
Oh no I didn't.

Oh yes you did!"

OK, for a start either show a quote where I said that or leave.

Quote
I said "have a complete map of the moon."
Nope, you can use a coordinate system based on earth anywhere, including the moon."

You said nope you do not need a map

Where did he say that GPS could tell you where you were anywhere in the universe? I don't see it.

Quote
Quote
A coordinate system based on earth (the one I had in mind was latitude, longitude and altitude) which can be used to pinpoint any place in the universe.

Even though we do not actually know how big the universe is or what it really looks like!

That's irrelevant, the coordinates are still plottable.

Quote
Oh really you never get signal problems?

Are you also labouring under the delusion that a mobile phone transmits directly to the satellites?

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Offline Geezer

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Would my GPS device work on the moon?
« Reply #54 on: 03/04/2011 06:45:07 »
Are you also labouring under the delusion that a mobile phone transmits directly to the satellites?

That's silly. Everyone knows mobile phones get their signals from black helicopters.
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Offline Madidus_Scientia

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Would my GPS device work on the moon?
« Reply #55 on: 03/04/2011 07:45:19 »
Did someone say black helicopters?! Where?! where are they!? Where's my aluminium foil

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Offline Jolly- Joliver

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Would my GPS device work on the moon?
« Reply #56 on: 03/04/2011 10:20:24 »
""Bored Chemist said no you didn't need a map and that GPS could tell you where you were any where in the universe. "
Oh no I didn't.

Oh yes you did!"

OK, for a start either show a quote where I said that or leave.

Quote
I said "have a complete map of the moon."
Nope, you can use a coordinate system based on earth anywhere, including the moon."

You said nope you do not need a map

Where did he say that GPS could tell you where you were anywhere in the universe? I don't see it.

It was in the post I quoted from sec-2.1. As I said he was talking about sphere shapes he said no and that using Long- Latt and attitude from an earth based system you could plot anywhere in the universe. I think "Think" his point was that using an x Y Z axis you could plot your position, long and latt are for the sphere shape of the earth, we were discussing GPS at the time.



Quote
Quote
A coordinate system based on earth (the one I had in mind was latitude, longitude and altitude) which can be used to pinpoint any place in the universe.

Even though we do not actually know how big the universe is or what it really looks like!

That's irrelevant, the coordinates are still plottable.

Quote
Oh really you never get signal problems?

Are you also labouring under the delusion that a mobile phone transmits directly to the satellites?

Maybe I am.
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Offline Madidus_Scientia

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Would my GPS device work on the moon?
« Reply #57 on: 03/04/2011 10:25:05 »
They do not. They transmit to the nearest tower, and from there the signal is forwarded elsewhere.

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Offline Jolly- Joliver

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Would my GPS device work on the moon?
« Reply #58 on: 03/04/2011 10:49:35 »
They do not. They transmit to the nearest tower, and from there the signal is forwarded elsewhere.

Some phones can
http://www.ehow.com/how-does_5593221_satellites-information-during-natural-disasters.html
 
Quote
A satellite phone is a portable phone that communicates using satellites in orbit as opposed to land cell towers like cell phones. Satellite phones send a signal to and receive a signal from the satellite in use.

Just saying

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Offline Madidus_Scientia

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Would my GPS device work on the moon?
« Reply #59 on: 03/04/2011 10:57:19 »
We weren't talking about satellite phones.

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Offline Jolly- Joliver

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Would my GPS device work on the moon?
« Reply #60 on: 03/04/2011 11:19:01 »
We weren't talking about satellite phones.

What you mean is you weren't. I knew some portable phones could or did talk directly to satalites, some might also have GPS options. Delusions aside, because there are so many options, it is kind of a nightmare and easy to cross-wires.
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Offline Madidus_Scientia

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Would my GPS device work on the moon?
« Reply #61 on: 03/04/2011 13:44:15 »
Then why is it relevant whether BC has signal problems

Whether a phone has GPS capability or not has nothing to do with whether it can transmit or not

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Offline Jolly- Joliver

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Would my GPS device work on the moon?
« Reply #62 on: 03/04/2011 14:12:25 »
Then why is it relevant whether BC has signal problems

Whether a phone has GPS capability or not has nothing to do with whether it can transmit or not

So what's your point? Isnt it realtive to what phone he has, shall we ask him?

And what has any of this got to do with the being on the moon and recieving a GPS signal?

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Offline Madidus_Scientia

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Would my GPS device work on the moon?
« Reply #63 on: 03/04/2011 14:18:48 »
Exactly.

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Offline Jolly- Joliver

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Would my GPS device work on the moon?
« Reply #64 on: 03/04/2011 14:44:01 »
Exactly.


I will say Bored chemists are just the sort of people that buy satalite phones.

that aside where are we in this discussion? I'm still sure no signal from a GPS satalite would reach the moon at all.

I'm still for the specs tho on the 2f satalite, signal foot print. Any ideas of a good place to look?
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Offline Bored chemist

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Would my GPS device work on the moon?
« Reply #65 on: 03/04/2011 16:12:36 »
Wiybit,
Shocking as you may find this, if I had meant to use X,Y and Z coordinates I would have said so.
I didn't
I said that you could label any point in the universe by giving its latitude, longitude and altitude from earth.
Whether or not you could do that with GPS is another matter. Clearly there are some places you can't use GPS (like in a tunnel) but the system of coordinates is still valid.
You might want to look here.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polar_coordinates
It shows how to convert from Cartesian (X,Y,Z) to polar (R, θ,φ) coordinate systems.

The point was that you can use an earth based set of coordinates to navigate anywhere, including on the moon, so your idea that it would only work on earth is cobblers.

"I will say Bored chemists are just the sort of people that buy satalite phones"
Also cobblers. It's only about 4 years since I got a mobile phone at all.

However I said that my phone doesn't give satellite delays so you should have known that it's not a satellite phone. The problem is that you don't read what I post.

I still don't understand why you brought mobile phones into this thread. It's about the GPS system and GPS  receivers don't transmit a signal back to the satellite.
As far as I can tell you only mentioned this because you didn't understand the GPS system.

"I'm still for the specs tho on the 2f satalite, signal foot print. Any ideas of a good place to look?"
Anywhere you like. Because it won't help much.
The diagram will look something like this
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:FAA_WAAS_coverage_next_generation.jpg
It will differ in detail, but that's not the issue.
That pretty picture shows a contour  on the earth where the signal is over some specified strength. I don't know what the spec. is, but it doesn't matter because it's arbitrary.
I could still use a receiver just outside that area if I had a better antenna or if I was lucky with the local conditions.
On the other hand, even inside that "cone" I might not be able to get a usable signal.

So the area covered by the satellite depends on the antenna.
On the moon I can use as big a dish as I like, so it doesn't matter how poor the signal is.
(There's a way round the problem with pointing accuracy, but if I mention it, Wiybit will fail to understand it and probably say that I have said that all dogs like banana peel or something).

Now, back to the question of the maps.
Bits of Japan recently moved a few metres. The maps are now wrong.
GPS still works. It can still (even in a recently mobile bit of Japan) give you a latitude, longitude and altitude.
In fact, the reason they know how far and in which direction the tectonic plates moved is that they can monitor it with GPS.
Does anyone still think GPS needs a map?




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Offline Jolly- Joliver

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Would my GPS device work on the moon?
« Reply #66 on: 03/04/2011 16:39:18 »
Wiybit,
Shocking as you may find this, if I had meant to use X,Y and Z coordinates I would have said so.
I didn't
I said that you could label any point in the universe by giving its latitude, longitude and altitude from earth.
Whether or not you could do that with GPS is another matter. Clearly there are some places you can't use GPS (like in a tunnel) but the system of coordinates is still valid.
You might want to look here.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polar_coordinates
It shows how to convert from Cartesian (X,Y,Z) to polar (R, θ,φ) coordinate systems.

The point was that you can use an earth based set of coordinates to navigate anywhere, including on the moon, so your idea that it would only work on earth is cobblers.

Well we were getting mixed up you were talking about navigation coordinates, as a system. I was talking about a GPS device.



"I will say Bored chemists are just the sort of people that buy satalite phones"
Also cobblers. It's only about 4 years since I got a mobile phone at all.

However I said that my phone doesn't give satellite delays so you should have known that it's not a satellite phone. The problem is that you don't read what I post.

I still don't understand why you brought mobile phones into this thread. It's about the GPS system and GPS  receivers don't transmit a signal back to the satellite.
As far as I can tell you only mentioned this because you didn't understand the GPS system.

"I'm still for the specs tho on the 2f satalite, signal foot print. Any ideas of a good place to look?"
Anywhere you like. Because it won't help much.
The diagram will look something like this
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:FAA_WAAS_coverage_next_generation.jpg

Yes I know about that site I referenced it eariler, the WAAS is the next generation for GPS, the coverage on the old system is smaller and that is the system we use at the moment.



It will differ in detail, but that's not the issue.
That pretty picture shows a contour  on the earth where the signal is over some specified strength. I don't know what the spec. is, but it doesn't matter because it's arbitrary.
I could still use a receiver just outside that area if I had a better antenna or if I was lucky with the local conditions.
On the other hand, even inside that "cone" I might not be able to get a usable signal.

So the area covered by the satellite depends on the antenna.

Sorry but the footprint has a huge impact, on the devices ability to function, and I debate how wide the satalite signal is, effects of the atmosphere and the solar winds.

I still do not believe any signal will get there, and no one has shown any evidence, to suggest otherwise.



On the moon I can use as big a dish as I like, so it doesn't matter how poor the signal is.

true but I still debate any signal getting there at all, again based on the diagrams put up by others if any signal did I think it would only come from arround 10% of the satlites, 2.4, you need three minimum, and four for best function, With the low frequency I cannot see it happening.

 

(There's a way round the problem with pointing accuracy, but if I mention it, Wiybit will fail to understand it and probably say that I have said that all dogs like banana peel or something).

No you can explain the poining accuracy, please do more input. and you did say dogs like banana peels.




Now, back to the question of the maps.
Bits of Japan recently moved a few metres. The maps are now wrong.
GPS still works. It can still (even in a recently mobile bit of Japan) give you a latitude, longitude and altitude.
In fact, the reason they know how far and in which direction the tectonic plates moved is that they can monitor it with GPS.
Does anyone still think GPS needs a map?

Yes the GPS works inside a bad map, your device would still need a moon map. What good is a map of the earth going to do you on the moon? You are looking for your postion on the moon, the device will need a map to do that. and even if you want to argue that it can just give you coordiates in numbers, it would have to have a program that extended beyond the earth to do so.

Why are we arguing this anyway? You already said in your first or secound post GPS on the moon wouldn't work(correction you said if you have a military GPS it would).

I debate that, so we argue. great 
« Last Edit: 03/04/2011 16:44:57 by Wiybit »
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Offline Jolly- Joliver

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Would my GPS device work on the moon?
« Reply #67 on: 03/04/2011 17:03:50 »
But I think also we need to clarify the Question

It was "would My GPS device work on the moon"

No super big antennas, no extra programs in the device for outer space co ordinations(although he already excepted that as a given).

His hand held device.

The answer is no!
« Last Edit: 03/04/2011 17:09:08 by Wiybit »
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Offline JP

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Would my GPS device work on the moon?
« Reply #68 on: 03/04/2011 17:14:56 »
But I think also we need to clarify the Question

It was "would My GPS device work on the moon"

No super big antennas, no extra programs in the device for outer space co ordinations(although he already excepted that as a given).

His hand held device.

The answer is no!

No, that wasn't the initial question.  His initial question was:

Quote
Ignoring software issues related to the fact that the longitude and latitude wouldn't fit, if a GPS receiver was taken to the moon, would it still work to pinpoint my position, albeit on the lunar surface?

So he was assuming the software wouldn't be a limitation.
« Last Edit: 03/04/2011 17:52:33 by JP »

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Offline Bored chemist

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« Reply #69 on: 03/04/2011 17:36:59 »
So, it wouldn't work with a standard GPS.
Just like I said a while ago.

So, any subsequent posts must have referred to non-standard GPS receivers.
Please disregard all previous signatures.

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Offline Jolly- Joliver

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Would my GPS device work on the moon?
« Reply #70 on: 03/04/2011 18:03:22 »
But I think also we need to clarify the Question

It was "would My GPS device work on the moon"

No super big antennas, no extra programs in the device for outer space co ordinations(although he already excepted that as a given).

His hand held device.

The answer is no!

No, that wasn't the initial question.  His initial question was:

Quote
Ignoring software issues related to the fact that the longitude and latitude wouldn't fit, if a GPS receiver was taken to the moon, would it still work to pinpoint my position, albeit on the lunar surface?

It's the title of the thread.


So he was assuming the software wouldn't be a limitation.

Yes as I said= (although he already excepted that as a given) to say that he knew it would be a problem but assuming for the question it wouldn't be. Makes sense, it's given that the program would need to be improved, the question is one of a hand held device being able to recieve a signal on the moon.

Or maybe better said "knowing about the software issues, so ignoring them for the sake of the question(so we assume it would be fine), would the GPS device be able to tell me my position when on the moon? 

I should have worded it better actually, but asuming the device would be fine means "no extra programing needed" I can totally see how that can come across differently.
« Last Edit: 03/04/2011 18:22:26 by Wiybit »
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Offline Geezer

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Would my GPS device work on the moon?
« Reply #71 on: 03/04/2011 18:20:00 »

Or maybe better said "knowing about the software issues, so ignoring them for the sake of the question(so we assume it would be fine), would the GPS device be able to tell me my position when on the moon?
 

...and the answer is still yes, although, as has been pointed out more than a few times, the accuracy would not be very good.
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Offline Jolly- Joliver

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Would my GPS device work on the moon?
« Reply #72 on: 03/04/2011 18:23:49 »

Or maybe better said "knowing about the software issues, so ignoring them for the sake of the question(so we assume it would be fine), would the GPS device be able to tell me my position when on the moon?
 

...and the answer is still yes, although, as has been pointed out more than a few times, the accuracy would not be very good.

No, Bored said no, I dont think it would either, there is a disagreement here.

It's a hand held device, that will not work indoors. It has the programming(as a given) but I do not think the reception capability.
« Last Edit: 03/04/2011 18:31:24 by Wiybit »
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Offline Jolly- Joliver

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« Reply #73 on: 03/04/2011 19:18:03 »
Maybe if we knew the reception specs on the device.

What hand held GPS device is it, just a standard one I assume.

Lets go shopping:-

Weighing in at $259.99 it's the "Garmin GPSMAP 76CSx Handheld GPS Devices"
http://www.amazon.com/Garmin-GPSMAP-76CSx-Handheld-Devices/dp/B003PQHDX8
Quote
The GPSMAP 76CSx is designed for serious outdoor enthusiasts. Includes a built-in Americas autoroute basemap with automatic routing capabilities, including highways, exits, and tide data. Internal memory is preloaded with a marine point database. 1,000 user waypoints with name and graphic symbol; 50 reversible routes. Position formats include Lat/Lon, UTM, Loran TDs, Maidenhead, MGRS, user grid, and more. 10,000-point automatic track log; 20 saved tracks (500 points each) let you retrace your path in both directions. Trip computer provides odometer, stopped time, moving average, overall average, total time, max speed, and more. Elevation computer provides current elevation, ascent/descent rate, minimum/ maximum elevation, total ascent and descent, average and maximum ascent and descent rate. Navigation instructions can be shared with repeaters, plotters, and autopilots using NMEA protocols through the dedicated serial port. Built-in celestial tables for sun and moon calculations and the best times to fish and hunt. Compatible with most MapSource products. Large-numbers option for easy viewing; dual-position display mode. LED backlit display and keypad. New high-sensitivity WAAS-capable GPS receiver by SiRF acquires satellites faster and lets users track their location in challenging conditions, such as heavy foliage or deep canyons. Built-in quad-helix receiving antenna with remote antenna capability. Sensors: Electronic compass displays accurate heading while standing still. Barometric altimeter for extremely accurate elevation data. Includes a USB interface cable, MapSource Trip Waypoint Manager CD, lanyard, owners manual and quick-start guide. MicroSD card slot allows for storage of optional MapSource detail (128 MB microSD included). Battery life: 18 hours (typical use) using two AA alkaline batteries. Water resistant: The GPS case can withstand accidental immersion in one meter of water for up to 30 minutes. Unit floats w

Weighing in at $499.99 it's the "Garmin Oregon® 450"
http://www.zappos.com/garmin-oregon-450-t-n-a
Quote

■Hit the moon trail with the handheld Garmin® Oregon® 450T GPS equipped with a rugged, touchscreen along with preloaded topographic maps, 3-D map views, a high-sensitivity receiver, barometric altimeter, electronic compass, picture viewer and more.
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■Built-in 3-axis tilt-compensated electronic compass shows where you are heading even when you're standing still, without holding it level.
■Plot barometric pressure over time to keep an eye on changing weather.
■With a high-sensitivity, WAAS-enabled GPS receiver and HotFix™ satellite prediction, Oregon® 450 locates your position quickly and precisely and maintains its GPS location even in heavy cover and deep canyons.
■When connected to your computer and the internet, you can get a detailed analysis of your activities and send tracks to your outdoor device using Garmin Connect™.
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■Maps & Memory:
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■Waterproof (IPx7).
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And last but not least
 
Weighing in at $149.99 it's the "Garmin eTrex Legend H Mapping Handheld GPS"
http://www.target.com/gp/detail.html/186-0199465-9889623?asin=B001OMGVJW&AFID=Froogle_df&LNM=|
Quote
•Mobile GPS Features: High-Sensitivity GPS Receiver, Sun/Moon Information, Built-In Base Maps, Hunt/Fish Calendar
•Mapping Features: Routes
•Points of Interest: 0
•Number of Waypoints: 1000
•Electronic Display Features: LCD Screen
•Display Size: 1.1 "
•Screen Resolution: 160 x 240
•Emergency Call Device: No
•Battery Life: Up to 18 Hours



Right so Top middle and bottom of the price range.

Basically I think we pick one, and then use that as the basis of the question. What do you think?

On the moon full battery, has the programs needed, could it get a signal and so give us a position?
« Last Edit: 03/04/2011 19:35:59 by Wiybit »
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Offline Jolly- Joliver

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Would my GPS device work on the moon?
« Reply #74 on: 03/04/2011 19:20:15 »
Not sure about no. three it has a calendar to hunt fish. Actually they all do.

But then no. 3, has 0 points of interest, and no call for emergencies device, although why you would want a device that gets you an emergency, I don't know.

« Last Edit: 03/04/2011 19:42:54 by Wiybit »
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Offline Jolly- Joliver

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Would my GPS device work on the moon?
« Reply #75 on: 03/04/2011 19:49:38 »
Where is Cilla Black when you need her?

I think I'll go with no. 2. Price is no object is it.
It's WAAS.

 
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Offline Jolly- Joliver

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Would my GPS device work on the moon?
« Reply #76 on: 03/04/2011 22:38:23 »
Where is Cilla Black when you need her?

I think I'll go with no. 2. Price is no object is it.
It's WAAS.


So are there any objections to going with the WAAS? no 2? It's WAAS so it'll be better than the older GPS hand held devices.
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Offline Jolly- Joliver

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Would my GPS device work on the moon?
« Reply #77 on: 11/04/2011 22:22:41 »
Have we still not decided on a GPS device? Money being no object and all I think for the sake of a far test we go with number one.

Ouu and I found these on youtube:

GPS 30 satalites 6 orbits of 4 per orbit, at a given time between 4 to 9 satalites can see a GPS reciever, on earth.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v_6yeGcpoyE

It shows a signal footprints at different sizes but I'm not sure how close they are.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ezv8U_Flukk&feature=related
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Offline JP

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Would my GPS device work on the moon?
« Reply #78 on: 12/04/2011 02:21:37 »
Have we still not decided on a GPS device? Money being no object and all I think for the sake of a far test we go with number one.

Since it's your question, why not pick one from your list and ask how good a signal it can get from the moon?

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Offline Jolly- Joliver

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Would my GPS device work on the moon?
« Reply #79 on: 12/04/2011 12:57:12 »
Have we still not decided on a GPS device? Money being no object and all I think for the sake of a far test we go with number one.

Since it's your question, why not pick one from your list and ask how good a signal it can get from the moon?

Already have number one, it's the middle price one.

Although though I am quiet sure even if it was adapted to deal with space and had the needed software, it's reception still wouldn't be good enought to pick up a signal, All three are W.A.S.S tho. So next generation and probably better than the orginal devices.
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Offline Bored chemist

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Would my GPS device work on the moon?
« Reply #80 on: 12/04/2011 20:49:20 »
So, knowing that none of them will work, you have chosen one.
Fair enough.
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Offline Jolly- Joliver

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Would my GPS device work on the moon?
« Reply #81 on: 12/04/2011 21:28:41 »
So, knowing that none of them will work, you have chosen one.
Fair enough.

Hey some were suggesting it could, I suggested choosing a device first to then know the reception specs. I even ungraded to W.A.S.S.

I still think it's a no, but then I'm not an expert.

You suggested some signal would reach the moon, so how much? I still debate that but... That's the point
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Offline Kirkaiya

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Re: Would my GPS device work on the moon?
« Reply #82 on: 12/03/2013 23:13:37 »
So, knowing that none of them will work, you have chosen one.
Fair enough.

Hey some were suggesting it could, I suggested choosing a device first to then know the reception specs. I even ungraded to W.A.S.S.

I still think it's a no, but then I'm not an expert.

You suggested some signal would reach the moon, so how much? I still debate that but... That's the point

I know this is an old topic, but after reading the thread, it's clear that some of you were "talking past each other" (or, in fact, talking about different things).

There are two basic questions:
  • Will an off-the-shelf, commercially available GPS receiver "work" on the moon (eg, tell me my position in any way)?
  • Is it possible to construct a GPS receiver which can (a) detect the transmitted signals of GPS satellites on the moon, and (b) use them to calculate a position on the moon?

The answer to #1 is (fairly obviously) no. Hand-held or even boat or commercial aircraft GPS receivers don't have sufficiently large antennae, and in any case use chip-sets that are hard-coded for calculating positions inside a fixed range of possible locations.

The answer to #2, as Bored Chemist and others pointed out, is "probably yes".  Given that on the moon, one could construct an receiving antenna of arbitrary size, capable of receiving signals from GPS satellites; even with directional antennas, the strength of the signal heading away from the Earth would be far stronger a mere 260,000 miles away on the lunar surface than the strength of transmissions from Voyager and Pioneer probes were at Earth when the probes were transmitting from past Jupiter).   Since GPS satellites are not (all) in-plane with the moon, there would always be a triangle of them (at least) visible from the side of the moon facing Earth.  Caveats are that you'd need a large antenna, and you'd probably need a custom chip-set (or at least, custom software) to convert the time-pulses into useful coordinates, but since the original question said to ignore that, then yes, it's almost certainly possible to get some position (how accurate it might be is another question altogether).

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Offline Pmb

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Re: Would my GPS device work on the moon?
« Reply #83 on: 12/03/2013 23:43:43 »
The answer to number two is still now. The GPS system wasn't designed for that. It is a system that is calibrated to earth orbits relating to earh bound recievers. The signals are meaningless to a receiver on the moon. For example: Suppose we constructed artificical moons around the earth each with different zeros if lat and long. How would the recievers be able to tell which one it was on? Remeber that it can't receive a signal if its on the opposite side of the earth either. Nope. The GPS system is for Earth based receivers only.

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Offline evan_au

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Re: Would my GPS device work on the moon?
« Reply #84 on: 13/03/2013 09:34:23 »
Quote
if you were to put the GPS in a position beyond the orbits of the satellites, I think it would try to report a position within the orbits

With line-of-sight to 4 satellites and a strong signal, you can solve 4 equations in 4 unknowns, producing: X, Y, Z and Time (or Latitude, Longitude, Altitude & Time).

This will allow you to work out your correct position, whether it is inside or outside the satellite's orbit.
  • To get a strong signal on the Moon, you would need a big antenna - and the strongest signal would not come from the nearest satellites (which are broadcasting away from you), but from GPS satellites which are on the far side of the Earth, so they are transmitting towards you.
  • GPS is designed to compensate for passage through the Earth's atmosphere - but on the Moon, the GPS signal would pass through no atmosphere, or an extra-long grazing path through the Earth's atmosphere.
  • Another constraint on solving 4 equations in 4 unknowns is that the set of equations is "well-conditioned". This is best achieved if the satellites are widely spread across the sky. However, from a viewpoint on the Moon, all the GPS satellites are in the smallish patch of sky that includes the Earth. This means that the equations will not produce results which are as accurate as you would get on Earth.
...so when you set up your Moon base, don't plan on saving a bit of money by taking the GPS receiver from your car on Earth.
 

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Offline Lmnre

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Re: Would my GPS device work on the moon?
« Reply #85 on: 13/03/2013 14:39:59 »
If you could receive a decent signal and bypass the govt restriction about use in space, the receiver would triangulate a position in Earth coordinates — say, somewhere over the tropical Pacific Ocean, but at an altitude of about 1,250,000,000 feet. 

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Offline syhprum

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Re: Would my GPS device work on the moon?
« Reply #86 on: 13/03/2013 18:03:46 »
Apart from the geometric and time of flight problems there is the problem of the received signal strength at 800 Km where the satellites operate the received signal strength is pretty marginal imagine how weak it would be at 400,000 Km
syhprum

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Offline Bored chemist

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Re: Would my GPS device work on the moon?
« Reply #87 on: 13/03/2013 22:18:47 »
The answer to number two is still now. The GPS system wasn't designed for that. It is a system that is calibrated to earth orbits relating to earh bound recievers. The signals are meaningless to a receiver on the moon. For example: Suppose we constructed artificical moons around the earth each with different zeros if lat and long. How would the recievers be able to tell which one it was on? Remeber that it can't receive a signal if its on the opposite side of the earth either. Nope. The GPS system is for Earth based receivers only.

Did you not read the earlier posts?
I pointed out that, while people were "designed" to work on earth they worked OK on the moon.

In principle the system would still tell you latitude (relative to Earth's equator) , longitude (Relative to Greenwich) and altitude (relative to the earth's surface).
That identifies a unique position in the universe so it tells you where you are.
It would, for example, be able to show you the way home.

In practice there would be problems, but the idea that it wouldn't work in space because it was designed to work on earth is absurd.
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Re: Would my GPS device work on the moon?
« Reply #88 on: 14/03/2013 11:23:51 »
"At the next meteor, enter roundabout and take the third exit."



It would, for example, be able to show you the way home.


C'mon everybody, let's all sing........ ♫ I'm garmin home baby now.♫
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Offline Bored chemist

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Re: Would my GPS device work on the moon?
« Reply #89 on: 14/03/2013 19:47:03 »
Would sound better with percussion: bongo drums or something.
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