Is this cold fusion idea going to work?

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Offline kowalskil

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Is this cold fusion idea going to work?
« on: 11/05/2011 16:29:35 »
1) Some of you might enjoy to learn about a new gadget

newbielink:http://www.rainews24.rai.it/it/video.php?id=23096 [nonactive]

newbielink:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NzL3RIlcwbY [nonactive]


2) Will October 2011 be the beginning of a new energy-production era ? I am skeptical, as explained at:

newbielink:http://pages.csam.montclair.edu/~kowalski/cf/rossi.html [nonactive]
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Ludwik Kowalski
« Last Edit: 25/06/2012 15:49:29 by peppercorn »
L. Kowalski, a retired nuclear scientist (see wikipedia) is the author of

      newbielink:http://csam.montclair.edu/~kowalski/life/intro.html [nonactive]

about my evolution from a devoted Stalinist to an active anti-communist. Based on a diary I kept between 1946 and 2004 (in the USSR, Poland, France and the USA)

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Offline Geezer

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« Reply #1 on: 11/05/2011 17:29:09 »
Is it a coincidence that he's in Bologna? I think not [;D]
« Last Edit: 11/05/2011 21:45:00 by Geezer »
There ain'ta no sanity clause, and there ain'ta no centrifugal force ćther.

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Offline imatfaal

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« Reply #2 on: 11/05/2011 18:22:49 »
Ludwik - from my reading of the comments to Andrea Rossi's blog there are some pretty heavyweight physicists getting involved in this debate yourself included ;-)  Am I right in thinking that if this does have the nuclear catalysis effect claimed it is an epoch changing discovery? 
There’s no sense in being precise when you don’t even know what you’re talking about.  John Von Neumann

At the surface, we may appear as intellects, helpful people, friendly staff or protectors of the interwebs. Deep down inside, we're all trolls. CaptainPanic @ sf.n

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Offline Geezer

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« Reply #3 on: 11/05/2011 21:41:13 »
I noticed on the video that they said the details of how it works cannot be revealed because the patent is not granted yet. Of course, that's silly, because patent applications are public information. This would seem to be it

http://www.google.com/patents/about?id=84vwAAAAEBAJ&dq=andrea+rossi
There ain'ta no sanity clause, and there ain'ta no centrifugal force ćther.

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Offline Geezer

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« Reply #4 on: 11/05/2011 22:54:15 »
The plot thickens.

If Rossi deliberately does not include details of some "secret ingredient" in the patent, if it ever is granted, the patent can be challenged. Patents have been invalidated because the inventors deliberately witheld information regarding the "best method".

If he is holding something back, I'd be inclined to think it's a bit fishy.
There ain'ta no sanity clause, and there ain'ta no centrifugal force ćther.

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Offline JP

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« Reply #5 on: 12/05/2011 00:20:31 »
So he has a black box, and out of the black box comes energy.  It's impossible to judge it scientifically without being able to reproduce it, so it isn't really worth discussing as science.

My personal opinion is that it's nonsense and he's trying to get publicity, which is working, since we're discussing it here.  :)  Of course, if he is on to something, then we won't really know until he decides to tell us how it works, or starts producing these things commercially.


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Offline imatfaal

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« Reply #6 on: 12/05/2011 11:34:55 »
So he has a black box, and out of the black box comes energy.  It's impossible to judge it scientifically without being able to reproduce it, so it isn't really worth discussing as science.

My personal opinion is that it's nonsense and he's trying to get publicity, which is working, since we're discussing it here.  :)  Of course, if he is on to something, then we won't really know until he decides to tell us how it works, or starts producing these things commercially.



He has told a few other experimental physicists (and not just nutjobs like most of these perpmotion/coldfusion guys) who have agreed to keep schtum (and attempt to repeat his results) until he launches a big machine and publishes the entire theory.  He does have a physics nobel laureate and various other heads of department/professorial level taking him fairly seriously.  I agree with both Geezer and JP that the way he has gone about it does not engender confidence - i think he is terrified of going ahead without a full working system, a full working theory, and complete results that have been repeated by others.   The theory cannot be really grasped at the moment because it is so unusual and against what we have been taught. and whilst I am aware that no amount of interest from scientists can make a false theory true; the fact that profs of nuclear physics like Ludowik are taking it serious enough to attempt to poke holes in it means, to me at least, its worth keeping an eye upon.
There’s no sense in being precise when you don’t even know what you’re talking about.  John Von Neumann

At the surface, we may appear as intellects, helpful people, friendly staff or protectors of the interwebs. Deep down inside, we're all trolls. CaptainPanic @ sf.n

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Offline lightarrow

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« Reply #7 on: 12/05/2011 13:26:10 »
Is it a coincidence that he's in Bologna? I think not [;D]
[???] What do you mean?

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Offline graham.d

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« Reply #8 on: 12/05/2011 14:34:55 »
Perhaps it needs James Randi to look at it. Rossi does not seem to have a background that gives him credibility; quite the opposite in fact. I'm afraid scientists are notoriously, if surprisingly, gullible. Maybe because they are drawn into seeing patterns to which they are guided and fail to see the card up the sleeve.

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Offline imatfaal

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« Reply #9 on: 12/05/2011 15:53:48 »
Graham - you are right; I think, despite all the accusations of scientific dogma and repression of new ideas, that scientists are the most likely members of society to accept the possibility of a complete change to their most fundamental notions, yet the least likely to accept this change without empirical evidence.
There’s no sense in being precise when you don’t even know what you’re talking about.  John Von Neumann

At the surface, we may appear as intellects, helpful people, friendly staff or protectors of the interwebs. Deep down inside, we're all trolls. CaptainPanic @ sf.n

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Offline imatfaal

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« Reply #10 on: 12/05/2011 15:56:15 »
Is it a coincidence that he's in Bologna? I think not [;D]
[???] What do you mean?

Baloney is common American slang for nonsense/claptrap - the name derives from a sausage that originated in Bologna.
There’s no sense in being precise when you don’t even know what you’re talking about.  John Von Neumann

At the surface, we may appear as intellects, helpful people, friendly staff or protectors of the interwebs. Deep down inside, we're all trolls. CaptainPanic @ sf.n

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Offline Geezer

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« Reply #11 on: 12/05/2011 18:47:07 »

Baloney is common American slang for nonsense/claptrap - the name derives from a sausage that originated in Bologna.


Commonly prefaced with "a load of".

..............

What I find interesting about these kind of things is that, even if Rossi now realizes it really is baloney, he is so far into it, and he has dragged so many others along with him, that he has little choice but to keep plugging along.
There ain'ta no sanity clause, and there ain'ta no centrifugal force ćther.

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Offline lightarrow

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« Reply #12 on: 12/05/2011 20:06:28 »
Baloney is common American slang for nonsense/claptrap - the name derives from a sausage that originated in Bologna.
Ah, I get it now. Which is that sausage? Mortadella?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mortadella

I like a good sandwitch with mortadella!

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Offline Geezer

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« Reply #13 on: 12/05/2011 20:21:50 »
It's very similar to mortadella, but without the chunks of lard. Not entirely unlike spam!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bologna_sausage

I belive the origin of the US slang expression is something like

"No matter how thin you slice it, it's still baloney."

(Sorry for completely derailing this thread  [;D])
There ain'ta no sanity clause, and there ain'ta no centrifugal force ćther.

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Offline graham.d

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« Reply #14 on: 16/05/2011 12:51:09 »
What a good idea. Cold fusion in a sausage to make it self cooking.

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Offline Geezer

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« Reply #15 on: 16/05/2011 17:26:58 »
What a good idea. Cold fusion in a sausage to make it self cooking.

Somebody seems to have beat you to it  [:D]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-heating_food_packaging
There ain'ta no sanity clause, and there ain'ta no centrifugal force ćther.

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Offline katesisco

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« Reply #16 on: 16/05/2011 17:44:46 »
NOW would be a good time, right NOW. 
The sun is demonstrating its connection to all matter, and 33 day cycle seems to be the sun's core rotation.  And there is that pyramid arrangement in the May sky to consider. 

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Offline Geezer

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« Reply #17 on: 16/05/2011 17:55:50 »

The sun is demonstrating its connection to all matter, and 33 day cycle seems to be the sun's core rotation.  And there is that pyramid arrangement in the May sky to consider.
 

Er, pardon me, but what does that have to do with cold fusion? Come to think of it, what does it have to do with anything?
There ain'ta no sanity clause, and there ain'ta no centrifugal force ćther.

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Offline yor_on

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« Reply #18 on: 16/05/2011 22:42:51 »
Well, Rossi is interesting and we had some Swedish scientists checking on him. Hopefully he will allow us to test his contraption in Sweden (University) as those visiting didn't find him to be a 'crank'. The problem being that there is so many clever ways to falsify a result if that's what you're starting from.

There was some guy traveling around with a little box geting a input of 200W delivering 400W if I remember right. Nobody could understand how it did it as he refused to explain until someone realized that he was using 'spikes' and then building them up inside it, of too short time to make any normal circuits register it, and without any 'breakers' going off.
« Last Edit: 16/05/2011 22:46:40 by yor_on »
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Offline Geezer

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« Reply #19 on: 16/05/2011 23:00:57 »
What's the Swedish equivalent of baloney?
There ain'ta no sanity clause, and there ain'ta no centrifugal force ćther.

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Offline imatfaal

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« Reply #20 on: 16/05/2011 23:09:46 »
Let's all hold off until he publishes in October.  I now really want it to be true - not for the amazing benefits it could bring mankind, but to watch geezer eat his words and not baloney!
There’s no sense in being precise when you don’t even know what you’re talking about.  John Von Neumann

At the surface, we may appear as intellects, helpful people, friendly staff or protectors of the interwebs. Deep down inside, we're all trolls. CaptainPanic @ sf.n

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Offline Geezer

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« Reply #21 on: 16/05/2011 23:23:45 »
Matt,

Obviously, you misunderstand. My interest was entirely culinary.  [;D]
There ain'ta no sanity clause, and there ain'ta no centrifugal force ćther.

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Offline Geezer

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« Reply #22 on: 16/05/2011 23:34:42 »
There is an expression in the US that might also be applicable. I don't remember a UK equivalent.

"If it looks like a duck, and it walks like a duck, it's probably a duck."
There ain'ta no sanity clause, and there ain'ta no centrifugal force ćther.

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Offline imatfaal

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« Reply #23 on: 16/05/2011 23:52:43 »
There is a variant that unfortunately might well apply to Ing Rossi - "if it looks like a duck and QUACKS like a duck..." and I worry that Rossi may well turn out to be a bit quackers
There’s no sense in being precise when you don’t even know what you’re talking about.  John Von Neumann

At the surface, we may appear as intellects, helpful people, friendly staff or protectors of the interwebs. Deep down inside, we're all trolls. CaptainPanic @ sf.n

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Offline yor_on

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« Last Edit: 18/05/2011 03:45:05 by yor_on »
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Offline JP

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« Reply #25 on: 18/05/2011 03:52:19 »
I think a Carl Sagan quote is appropriate here, "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence."  I find it odd that this has generated such hype and debate when in fact he hasn't given any evidence of how this works.  There is nothing scientific to be tested here either, because this isn't reproducible until he opens up his black box.

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Offline yor_on

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« Reply #26 on: 18/05/2011 21:40:48 »
I don't know JP, what do you think a cooperation would pay for it if it's correct? And to what limits would they take their efforts? If it is true the patent laws will be something to laugh at, as they already seems to be actually. It's a well known truth that without a immense amount of money you will have a he* of a time defending your patent in the USA from all money-grubbing lawyers and cooperations. We have some examples of that in Sweden, even going so far as sending over a 'hit man' here when the guys claims to his invention became to loud. And that was not 'cold fusion' :)

So if the claim is true?
I would be very careful myself, and make as much publicity I could concerning who actually have got it working. The longer he can prove it to work without anyone else able to copy it the better his claims in a court of law afterwards.
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Offline Atomic-S

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« Reply #27 on: 16/07/2011 06:24:17 »
One thing I wonder about this alleged catalyzed fusion is that although quantum mechanics tells us that there is a certain probability that a hydrogen nucleus and its electron could simultaneously wander into a nickel nucleus (which process would appear facilitated by their opposite charges) and trigger a neuclear reaction, an electron and a proton together does not equal a neutron. The reason why they do not equal a neutron is that both have spin 1/2. Therefore they can combine only in such manner as to form spin 0 or 1. A neutron, however, has a spin 1/2.  That is a theoretical obstacle to the process being possible. If it does happen, there should be the emission of an additional particle of spin 1/2, probably a neutrino. Unfortunately, neutrinos are difficult to detect. But before attempting to detect them, some calculations should be run to see what the probability of of such a conversion of an electron and proton into a neutron and neutrino actually is under these conditions. It is not the same as simply bombarding a target with neutrons.
 

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Offline Airthumbs

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« Reply #28 on: 16/07/2011 18:13:06 »
Do you honestly believe that a device producing free energy would be allowed onto the market?  This guy has probably been blackmailed, had his family threatened and is now under the scrutiny of friendly people like Murdoch who like to play fair and behave like gentlemen!!!!!!!!!!

The conversation might be something like this, "how much money do you need to completely debunk this scientist who is going to ruin the economy and therefore the world we created." 

I think that there are people out there who have discovered ways of vastly reducing our energy consumption and do genuinely want to change things but whilst we have people voted in as our leaders who have connections with Oil, Banks and other totalitarian capitalist mechanisms it's not going to change. 

It is a very sick world we live in!  To say most people have had the wool pulled over their eyes would be an understatement.  If I was in a position of power I would do all I can to change things, and expect that is what people would need me to try to do.  Ask yourself what are our leaders doing?  Sweet F.A! 
Any intelligent fool can make things bigger and more complex... It takes a touch of genius - and a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction. (Einstein)

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Offline Bored chemist

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« Reply #29 on: 17/07/2011 10:30:02 »
"Ask yourself what are our leaders doing?  "
Starting legal proceedings against "friendly people like Murdoch"

You can't hide the truth forever.

Please disregard all previous signatures.

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Offline graham.d

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« Reply #30 on: 17/07/2011 19:28:30 »
Do you honestly believe that a device producing free energy would be allowed onto the market?   

Oh no, not another conspiracy theory. This guy Rossi has form for deception, allegedly. He is also not a physicist i.e. someone who may just have a chance of actually doing something pertinent to advancing the concept of cold fusion. Now add to that a reluctance to release too much information to allow reproducibility of his process. It does not sound convincing to me. He is also not being silenced in any way as far as I can see, but welcoming promotion of a concept he will not fully disclose.

If anyone made cold fusion work it really would be utilised. A cat this size would not be put back in the bag; it would be quite impossible to hide such data and there would be a huge number of people would wish to see it used, whatever the consequences.

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Offline Geezer

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« Reply #31 on: 17/07/2011 20:57:11 »

Oh no, not another conspiracy theory.


It's obviously being suppressed by the US government, along with the thingy you can put on your car that makes it get 100 mpg and the everlasting lightbulb.
There ain'ta no sanity clause, and there ain'ta no centrifugal force ćther.

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Offline qazibasit

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« Reply #32 on: 29/08/2011 14:06:48 »
i only heard about this cold fusion thing, in a movie " The Saint" somewhere in late 90s or early 2000s. Never read or heard abt it since then. Never saw any news or report abt it on the net as well.
"There is never too late to make a change".

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Offline kowalskil

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A new technological claim
« Reply #33 on: 06/12/2011 00:14:37 »
Some of you might be interested in an article (about a new invention) I have posted. The link is:

newbielink:http://www.allvoices.com/contributed-news/11027663-rossis-invention-unlimited-safe-and-inexpensive-energy-or-wishful-thinking-reporting-from-fort-lee-new-jersey [nonactive]

It is an entry for a writing contest. Please post your comments at their website. Please evaluate this short article; it was written with general public in mind. Feel free to forward the above link to anyone who might be interested.

Thank you in advance,

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
[irrelevant link removed. NB. Please keep personal info limited to your profile only]
« Last Edit: 11/01/2012 11:34:13 by peppercorn »
L. Kowalski, a retired nuclear scientist (see wikipedia) is the author of

      newbielink:http://csam.montclair.edu/~kowalski/life/intro.html [nonactive]

about my evolution from a devoted Stalinist to an active anti-communist. Based on a diary I kept between 1946 and 2004 (in the USSR, Poland, France and the USA)

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Offline CliffordK

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A new technological claim
« Reply #34 on: 06/12/2011 02:03:08 »
Cold Fusion and Rossi has has been discussed off and on before on this BBS.

http://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?topic=36771.0
http://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?topic=39244.0

The device appeared to generate power.  However, Rossi was presenting it as a "black box", refusing to allow people to see what was inside, or analyze the properties of the emissions.

The device apparently generated positrons, which had been predicted as a necessary component of the fusion. 

However, if I was making some such device, I would use a simple RTG like is used in space probes, and add a 68Ge/68Ga positron emitter for window dressing. 

Until Rossi reveals what is inside of the black box, or I see it incorporated in large-scale power projects, I will classify it as a fraud/scam.

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Offline peppercorn

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« Reply #35 on: 06/12/2011 16:28:48 »
Thanks for the links Clifford.

Since, as Clifford says, we have indeed been here before I have merged Kowalski's topic "A new technological claim" (OP should also note: this is neither a descriptive title or framed as a question as board guidelines stipulate) with this topic.
« Last Edit: 06/12/2011 16:32:00 by peppercorn »