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Why Does CO2 Escape From An Enclosure More Easily Than Air?

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Peter Ridley under another name:
Hi John (damocles) thanks for having a stab at explaining that sudden collapse of the balloon with ˝ CO2 and ˝ air. It’s now down to 200mm diameter from the original 440mm while the air-filled one remains at 430mm (down from 450mm). Perhaps it is worth mentioning that the original (uncoloured) balloon that I filled with air about a month ago is still fully inflated. Hi John (damocles) thanks for having a stab at explaining that sudden collapse of the balloon with ˝ CO2 and ˝ air. It’s now down to 200mm diameter from the original 440mm while the air-filled one remains at 430mm (down from 450mm). Perhaps it is worth mentioning that the original (uncoloured) balloon that I filled with air about a month ago is still fully inflated.

I propose to re-use those same balloons but swop around the CO2 and air to try to rule out a difference in each balloon’s properties.



Regarding your response to my comment about Jaworowski discussing liquid water in deep ice, I misled you on that. I should have said water in deep firn. In his 1997 paper “ANOTHER GLOBAL WARMING FRAUD EXPOSED Ice Core Data Show No Carbon Dioxide Increase”  (http://www.warwickhughes.com/icecore/IceCoreSprg97.pdf) Fig. 2 Jaworoski provided an illustration of the vertical structure of an ice sheet and says
--- Quote --- .. meltwater seeps down and collect over impermeable layers. The firn density gradually increases with depth and at .83 g/cm3, firn changes into solid ice in which all pores are occluded, forming the primary air bubbles. Between a depth of 900 to 1,200m air bubbles disappear. Liquid water is contained in quasi-infinite network of capillary veins and films between the ice crystals. ..
--- End quote ---

He goes on to talk extensively about liquid water in the ice, e.g.
--- Quote --- .. liquid water is present in ice even at very low temperatures, and because many chemical and physical processes occur, in situ, in ice sheets and in recovered ice cores. These factors, discussed in References 8, 12, 22, and 24-28, change the original composition of air entrapped in ice, making the ice core results unrepresentative of the original chemical composition of the ancient atmosphere ..
--- End quote ---

He says in
--- Quote --- .. Some False Assumptions - For climatic interpretation of the ice core data the following assumptions are used:
.. (2) No liquid phase occurs in firn and ice at average annual air temperatures of 224°C or less ..
these assumptions are incorrect, and thus that the conclusions on low pre-industrial levels of atmospheric greenhouse gases are wrong .
--- End quote ---

Professor Eric Wolff said on Pete Ridley’s “Another Hickey Stick Illusion?” thread
--- Quote ---I think that none of us has a definite molecular level understanding of the physical process occurring at close-off ..
--- End quote ---
(http://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?topic=38675.msg354373#msg354373). If we can for the moment make the assumption that Jaworowski is correct about that water in firn (and there are plenty who say that he is wrong) what effect do you think that would have on the movement of CO2 within the firn and ice?

damocles:
From Yelder's latest:

--- Quote ---Professor Eric Wolff said on Pete Ridley’s “Another Hickey Stick Illusion?” thread
Quote
I think that none of us has a definite molecular level understanding of the physical process occurring at close-off ..
(http://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?topic=38675.msg354373#msg354373). If we can for the moment make the assumption that Jaworowski is correct about that water in firn (and there are plenty who say that he is wrong) what effect do you think that would have on the movement of CO2 within the firn and ice?
--- End quote ---

Hmmm! I am intrigued with the idea of a Hickey Stick   [;D]

This sort of post continues to miss the whole point of the evidence in the Vostok Ice core. To put it very simply:
-- Regardless of the detail of the mechanism a material (CO2 in this case) can only move from regions of higher concentration to lower concentration (else the second law of thermodynamics is violated and we can design a perpetual motion machine around the phenomenon)
-- The persistence of the sharp variations over periods of less than 1 kyr in the Vostok record is solid proof that the CO2 has NOT moved, because if it had moved, the only thing it could have done would be to have smoothed out these variations. The peaks would have had to flow into the troughs.
-- The detail of presence of liquid water or not, or fancy notions about diffusion mechanisms and bubble formation mechanisms and so on are therefore totally irrelevant. Jaworowski may or may not be right in the detail of some or all of what he has to say. It does not alter the fact that there is 100% solid proof in the ice record that the CO2 has moved less than 1 kyr through the profile in the whole lifetime of the ice sheet.

Peter Ridley under another name:
Hi John, thanks for the prompt response.

I’m surprised that you are
--- Quote --- .. intrigued with the idea of a Hickey Stick ..
--- End quote ---
As I understand it this is what the global mean atmospheric CO2 content during the past 1000 years is claimed to be by the paleoclimatologists using measurements of air “trapped” in ice.
 [ Invalid Attachment ]
(http://www-das.uwyo.edu/~geerts/cwx/notes/chap01/Image18.gif)
It looks very similar to the hockey stick claimed to be a true representation of the mean atmospheric temperature anomaly during the past 1000 years by Michael Mann

<spam link removed>


I’m sorry that I continue
--- Quote ---to miss the whole point of the evidence in the Vostok Ice core
--- End quote ---
and of lots of other ice cores

 [ Invalid Attachment ]
(http://www.ferdinand-engelbeen.be/klimaat/klim_img/antarctic_cores_800kyr.jpg) but even though I accept that CO2
--- Quote --- .. can only move from regions of higher concentration to lower concentration ..
--- End quote ---
wouldn’t those persistent
--- Quote --- .. sharp variations over periods of less than 1 kyr in the Vostok record ..
--- End quote ---
still exist if the original CO2 concentration was much much higher than the level shown in the ice core record if the rate of migration was very very slow? Could not a slow rate of migration still leave residual peaks and troughs as seen from that record? Could this then mean that
--- Quote --- .. The detail of presence of liquid water or not, or fancy notions about diffusion mechanisms and bubble formation mechanisms and so on ..
--- End quote ---
would be totally relevant?

Under those circumstance could not the claim that
--- Quote --- .. that there is 100% solid proof in the ice record that the CO2 has moved less than 1 kyr through the profile in the whole lifetime of the ice sheet ..
--- End quote ---
be more opinion than fact?

Of course, not being a scientist I could be totally wrong, but Jaworowski and his supporter Professor Hartmut Frank are scientists, the latter being highly regarded by his peers. As Pete Ridley said almost a year ago
--- Quote ---Dr. Hartmut Frank (Professor of Chemistry and Ecotoxicology, University of Bayreuth, Germany) who wrote the forward to Jaworowski’s 1994 paper, says QUOTE:
.. Prof. Jaworowski's main argument is valid and will remain valid because it is based on simple, but hard physicochemical facts. Most of the facts can be found in the old, traditional "Gmelin's Handbook of Inorganic Chemistry” - but nobody reads such books anymore today. The facts are so basic that one cannot even start a research project on an investigation of the validity of such carbon dioxide analyses in ice cores because the referees would judge it too trivial. But if one would apply proper quality assurance/quality control principles, as they are common in most other areas of application of chemical-analytical methods (for instance in drug control or toxicology) the whole building of climate change would collapse because of the overlooked fault.

And so one continues because there are so many living in or from this building. UNQUOTE
--- End quote ---
(http://julesandjames.blogspot.com/2010/07/monbiot-exonerated.html).

damocles:

--- Quote ---wouldn’t those persistent
Quote
.. sharp variations over periods of less than 1 kyr in the Vostok record ..
still exist if the original CO2 concentration was much much higher than the level shown in the ice core record if the rate of migration was very very slow? Could not a slow rate of migration still leave residual peaks and troughs as seen from that record?
--- End quote ---

No, they definitely could not still exist; those sharp features would necessarily be the first to disappear of there were any migration of CO2 at all.

It only involves a few kyr of migration through the record to wipe them out, one kyr to completely blunt them. CO2 trapped in ice has not moved.


--- Quote --- Under those circumstance could not the claim that
Quote
.. that there is 100% solid proof in the ice record that the CO2 has moved less than 1 kyr through the profile in the whole lifetime of the ice sheet ..
be more opinion than fact?

--- End quote ---

No


--- Quote ---Of course, not being a scientist I could be totally wrong, but Jaworowski and his supporter Professor Hartmut Frank are scientists, the latter being highly regarded by his peers.
--- End quote ---

No disrespect to Professor Hartmut Frank, but "Ecotoxicology" points to a background in Organic Chemistrry and Medical Chemistry, which is a very different specialization to Glaciology or Atmospheric Chemistry/Physics. It is disingenuous to trot out credentials like this when you are prepared to ignore the credentials of a huge consensus of Atmospheric Scientists who have views that do not fit in with your preconceived notions.

... And (unless I hear much more effective refutation), here endeth the topic as far as I am concerned.

chris:
Evidence has been presented to me confirming that the user "Pete Ridley" has, by his own admission, been using the false name "Yelder" to participate in this forum, referring to his own previous posts as though they were those of a third party; this is despite being asked previously to leave, and subseqently banned, owing to his repeated failure to abide by our forum rules and acceptable user policy.

Wantonly providing false personal information on the forum in this way is not acceptable.

For this reason, Mr Pete Ridley's alias "Yelder" has also been banned and renamed (for the benefit of other forum users) to make it clear that this content is also the work of Mr Pete Ridley.

Furthermore, having run its course and been thoroughly discussed, this thread has now been locked; thank you to everyone who has contributed to it.

Chris Smith

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